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Orci and Kurtzman on Next Generation Timeline and Future of Star Trek Franchise

By GustavoLeao / 10:44, 28 June 2009 / Star Trek: Nemesis

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WizardUniverse posted a new interview with Star Trek writers Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman and here are few excerpts.

This movie had a strong sense of excitement throughout the film that's been missing from "Star Trek" for a long time. How did you infuse that into the storyline?

ORCI: The tricky part regarding an origin story with characters you know and love is how are you going to have that kind of excitement if you already know what happens to them? When we came up with the idea of having Leonard Nimoy come back and have this story be something that changes history to such a degree that now the future is not written. That was the biggest thing we came up with that would allow us to have not only the freedom but also up the dramatic stakes to take the audience on a ride where you wouldn't know what was going to happen to them.

KURTZMAN: I think this movie was also inspired by the first half of the Richard Donner "Superman" movie. All of the adventure movies that we grew up with had such an enormous sense of epic adventure against the backdrop of very personal storytelling. All of them, "Star Wars," "Superman," "Star Trek"... any of those movies were always so big and anamorphic, and yet the stories were so relatable. It felt to us that it had been a very, very long time since we had seen a space epic that really did that. I think for us it was also a weird chance to reclaim our childhood.

ORCI: You actually care about the characters and that's why it's exciting.

Why did you choose to use the Romulans as the villains when they didn't work the last time out?

ORCI: [Laughs] When we came upon the idea of Leonard Nimoy, we wanted to pick up where he left off in "Star Trek," which was in the "Next Generation." In those stories, he was the ambassador to Romulus, so we wanted to keep continuity with what that was, that's why we brought them in.

KURTZMAN: And it's funny because some people have said, "Wow, you've broken continuity by having this encounter." That's not exactly true. Yes, we meet Romulans early, but we meet Romulans early because one of them comes back in time. It just changed everything right there.

What part did you play in the IDW comic prequel, Star Trek Countdown?

KURTZMAN: We produced it and generated the story. We came up with the idea of it being a countdown to the movie. And we got [Tim Jones and Mike Johnson] to work with us to write it and we all came up with the story together.

I really liked the idea that the Romulan ship was enhanced with Borg tech and I was hoping for some kind of reference to that in the movie.

ORCI: We did the "Countdown" comic after we finished the movie. So it was very difficult to do that.

When you originally came up with the story, what was your explanation for why the ship was so advanced?

ORCI: That it was from the future.

KURTZMAN: They had advanced their technology. And it's not only from the future but it's a very industrial ship designed for massive mining.

How does Kirk differ as a result of this new timeline?

KURTZMAN: Because of the events of the opening of the movie, there's a very fundamental difference. Kirk ends up growing up without a father and so he doesn't have that grounding. He's much more of a reckless wildcard and yet he has all of the same instincts of the Kirk that we know and love. We say that he is the same Kirk in soul it's just that the experiences in his life have shaped him...

ORCI: And the route to get him there. You know, one of the differences is that he gets to the academy later because he defers college. Yet ironically, he becomes Captain sooner.

Do you think this altered timeline precludes any other visits to the "Next Generation" era, given how the timeline has changed?

ORCI: I don't think so. If you saw the end of "Countdown," you know the Next Generation era is continuing on. Their universe is fully intact.

What direction would you like to see the franchise go in the future?

ORCI: We've said it before and we mean it, we want to see how fans react first. Because we are fans and fans have sort of been our consultants on our shoulders just by reading their reactions as we've been developing the movie. I'd love to see it become even more sci-fi than you can do when you're introducing something, because sci-fi can be distancing. I'd love to continue doing what we're doing.

KURTZMAN: I'd like to keep it emotional, if we're lucky enough to make more movies. One of the things that we were proud of is that everything came from an emotional big bang from the characters; which buys you the sci-fi.

ORCI: And we want to give that to all the characters. It's tricky. It's not just a single lead kind of thing; it's a family that you have to portray.

The full interview is here.

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Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
By: USShawk (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:39:20 on Jun 28, 2009

Let's face it, these guys took a tired franchise and made into something that can live on proudly. It takes guts and vision to do what they did, and it paid off amazingly. Not just in terms in money, but in a whole new set of fans that look forward to the stories going on.

For those who don't have the vision to move forward, well there's not much that can be said for you. You think there can be further adventures with 78 year old Shatner and Nimoy, deceased Kelley and Doohan, and a bitter Koenig? They had their moments, and the TNG era had nowhere else to go, not in terms of stories, in terms of longevity. They did live it out well in the Countdown comic.

I just got back from seeing Transformers 2. An unbearably long movie with about 30 minutes of plot, 90 minutes of fighting and explosions, and 15 minutes of nonsensical necessities. I enjoyed it. It was exciting, cool, silly, funny, and completely incoherent. If anyone watched the credits to the end, please tell me if I missed anything... I couldn't sit through it.

If the next movie is done right it will make $400 million domestically. Word of mouth from new fans, and the DVD are going to create alot more fans. That's exactly what happened with the Batman franchise (not just Heath Ledger's death).

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RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:11:53 on Jun 29, 2009

They didn't have to destroy the prime universe to revitalize the franchise. The franchise was tired and boring because the people in charge of it since GR died sucked.

These guys did something many fans have been waiting for since 1994--they went back to the original characters.

But the original timeline origin was also a story never told. They did NOT need to jettison 40 years of continuity to tell a great story with Kirk and crew. They CHOSE that.

This movie could have easily been every bit the same success in the prime universe. It would have been a different story, but hardly one that couldn't have been written by these guys.

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- RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
  By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:41:53 on Jun 29, 2009
  
  Quote:
  They did NOT need to jettison 40 years of continuity to tell a great story with Kirk and crew. They CHOSE that.
  
  You're right, and it was a genius move and pretty much the only CHOICE they had. You can't revitalize a franchise with characters that join Starfleet and get stationed on the Enterprise in different years, have destinies that are all pre-determined with no peril or risk that can be played out for fear of violating canon.. and with set designs that are frankly outdated and would look silly on the big screen! J.J. and Company did what they had to do and still managed to do it within the confines of canon because history was changed in 2233.
  
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  -- Steve
  "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
  
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- RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
  By: USShawk (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:28:54 on Jun 29, 2009
  
  If they re-told the story in the original timeline then everything that came after it would have to unfold exactly how we've seen it in the past. Not to mention it would have been scrutinized even more if there were any deviation from what people perceived as canon.
  
  Truthfully, I'm sick to death of canon. It's friggin science fiction. We don't live our lives by it. Movies and TV shows are made all the time about real history and they are embellished on to fill in holes, or conversation that they cannot account for. You wanna be pissed at something, be pissed at that. Don't be pissed at fiction being made into fiction.
  
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  - RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
    By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:40:32 on Jun 29, 2009
    
    So what if everything unfolded as we saw in the past? There's a reason that stuff was popular--people loved the stories.
    
    There are so many great stories that can take place during the 5 year mission. If you think about it, we really only saw 80 days of it, give or take.
    
    100 if you count TAS.
    
    There are so many great Star Trek novels that take place during that era that were new stories but stuck with established canon. Are Orci and Kurtzman less talented than those great authors?
    
    What it takes is talent. I think these guys easily have the talent to have done something within canon.
    
    They said all along that no one ever told the origin story of how these people became a crew. Unfortunately, that's still true because they told a story of a new timeline.
    
    This was a choice they made, and an unnecessary one.
    
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    - RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
      By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:45:31 on Jun 29, 2009
      
      Quote:
      They said all along that no one ever told the origin story of how these people became a crew. Unfortunately, that's still true because they told a story of a new timeline.
      
      According to canon, they all joined Starfleet at different times because they are all different ages. Forget the fact that Spock was serving with Pike for YEARS, while Kirk was on two different ships before Enterprise. Essentially, everyone was all over the place prior to 2265. Anything set after that would just be "TOS on the big screen" -- and the constraints of staying with canon would mean silly looking sets and costumes. This was the only feasable way to show an origin story without it looking silly AND having the character's destinies open.
      
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      -- Steve
      "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
      
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  - RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
    By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:36:46 on Jun 29, 2009
    
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    If they re-told the story in the original timeline then everything that came after it would have to unfold exactly how we've seen it in the past. Not to mention it would have been scrutinized even more if there were any deviation from what people perceived as canon.
    
    Exactly. And that's the thing some of these fanboys are missing. IF you do the origin story in the original timeline (with its 40+ years of storytelling, adding up to more than 700 hours), we know exactly what's going to happen to every single one of these characters. So what possible advantage is there to go see it, other than for reasons of fanwank?
    
    By setting it in a completely new, seperate timeline from the originals, they've opened the door to anything (as has been demonstrated perfectly with the destruction of Vulcan).
    
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    "Oh relax, Cupcake. It was a joke."- James T. Kirk
    
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RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:08:21 on Jun 28, 2009

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It's pretty gutless. Based on every time travel adventure, the prime universe is gone. He should have the guts to either say that, or in the next movie flat out say that this is a different universe.

What would this accomplish beyond satisfying a few temporal mechanics-hawks? I know the new popular thing is to never waste an opportunity to find a crack in the armor of the new regime. But gutless? They destroyed Vulcan, dude. That was the announcement you're looking for.

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RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:51:22 on Jun 28, 2009

It would establish once and for all, within canon that the prime universe exists. Without that, then there's no question, the prime universe is gone, based on all past Trek treatments of time travel.

Destroying Vulcan wasn't gutless. On the contrary, it was gutsy. I don't like it, and I don't think too many hardcore fans do, but it sends a big time message that they don't want to follow canon.

What I think is gutless is that they don't seem to have the guts to stick with what they said. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too by not simply saying, "yeah, we wrote over the prime universe, we want to start fresh, and this accomplishes our goal while still using the SAME characters you watched. They're the same people, they ended up in a similar place, they're together, we'll take it from here."

They're going to hear it from the hardcore fans on this no matter what because they didn't do anything within canon. I believe that's intentional.

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RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:23:11 on Jun 28, 2009

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But gutless? They destroyed Vulcan, dude. That was the announcement you were looking for.

They eliminated Vulcan, Spock's mother, Kirk's father, not to mention Romulus and Remus in the original timeline. Hell, even Worf's outlook is pretty bleak at this point! I'd say that the "new regime" has certainly put its stamp on the franchise -- a breath of fresh air after two prior films worth of mediocrity and complacency.

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-- Steve
"If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.

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- RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
  By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:31:14 on Jun 28, 2009
  
  Fresh air indeed. Those movies were suffocated to death by the constriction of what was accepted as possible and not possible. Remember that old episode where they go to some planet where it's so overcrowded there's literally no room to move? Now try making a movie there.
  
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Emotion | Report this post to moderator
By: VoR (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:05:17 on Jun 28, 2009

I'd love a new sci-fi story for the next one, but the comment regarding keeping the story emotional is spot-on. The opening of Star Trek was jaw-dropping and profoundly sad... I've seen the movie three times, and each time I went, I heard people openly weeping as George Kirk is talking to his wife, knowing that he won't survive much longer....
Once that scene was over and the big main title with stirring score is on screen, the audience is prepared for a hell of a ride, and it bought the film a great deal of good will. Focusing on that aspect of any new story will be the key to a success, me thinks... =)

VoR

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Flavius: What do you call those?
Spock: I call them ears.
Flavius: Are you trying to be funny?
Spock: Never.

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RE: Emotion | Report this post to moderator
By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:52:25 on Jun 28, 2009

Hell, I went to see the movie five times (before my theater finally pulled it this week), and that scene had me in tears every single time. By the fifth time, I think it actually got me worse than it did the first time.

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"Oh relax, Cupcake. It was a joke."- James T. Kirk

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RE: Emotion | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:45:13 on Jun 28, 2009

Quote:
The opening of Star Trek was jaw-dropping and profoundly sad... I've seen the movie three times, and each time I went, I heard people openly weeping as George Kirk is talking to his wife, knowing that he won't survive much longer....

I have seen the film four times now and get choked up during thay scene every time! I've also wondered how much more poignant that scene is with the number of military spouses here in the states who have talked to their spouse in Iraq or Afghanistan via web cam -- only to lose them shortly thereafter. It is all-too-common nowadays... makes that scene of the film that much more topical and relevant to today.

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-- Steve
"If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.

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- RE: Emotion | Report this post to moderator
  By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:57:04 on Jun 28, 2009
  
  Good point. That adds yet another layer of depth to that sequence.
  
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Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:00:24 on Jun 28, 2009

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If you saw the end of "Countdown," you know the Next Generation era is continuing on. Their universe is fully intact...

...as one of an infinite number of possible universes that exist at any one time, given how events in past history unfold -- i.e. had Nero not appeared in 2233 and changed the timeline. I hate when the writers say things like this for fear of fan repercussion because as long as we stay in the new universe? Most, if not all of the charatcers we know in the 24th century will likely never be born. So in terms of comics, novels and fan films they can live on sure.. but as long as the franchise is in the new universe? C'est la vie.

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-- Steve
"If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.

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To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator
By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 05:24:10 on Jun 29, 2009

... like they have just left open the possibility of more stories in the original timeline. A much stronger statement than you imply. This is all I have been asking for from the beginning. Thanks.

Now I am going to wait to see if they deliver.

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All message content � 2003 by Stilgar sietch_tabr[-at-]bigfoot.com, permission to reprint specifically denied to Michael Wong mike@stardestroyer.net ....

"This used to be a Funhouse
But now it's full of evil clowns"

Pink, Funhouse

BELOW Abrams-Trek: "It sounded like a good idea in the begining"

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- RE: To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator
  By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:59:03 on Jun 29, 2009
  
  Quote:
  To me it sounds ... like they have just left open the possibility of more stories in the original timeline.
  
  LOL, really?? You honestly think the next film or the one after that is going to have a THING to do with a post-Nemesis world in the 24th century?
  
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  Now I am going to wait to see if they deliver.
  
  You'll be dead and buried before it ever happens. I am trying to warn you, but wait all you want -- if you have that much free time.
  
  --------
  
  -- Steve
  "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
  
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  - RE: To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator
    By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 11:36:47 on Jun 29, 2009
    
    Film? NO. ST films are a waste of time in my opinion anyway. I'd prefer a tv series, or mini-series. A series of well written canon novels would also keep me happy.
    
    The OBVIOUS point is that the original timeline CAN BE continued according to TPTB, and the way they are talking it sounds like it may be.
    
    Which part of the above is unclear?
    
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    All message content � 2003 by Stilgar sietch_tabr[-at-]bigfoot.com, permission to reprint specifically denied to Michael Wong mike@stardestroyer.net ....
    
    "This used to be a Funhouse
    But now it's full of evil clowns"
    
    Pink, Funhouse
    
    BELOW Abrams-Trek: "It sounded like a good idea in the begining"
    
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    - RE: To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator
      By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:29:42 on Jun 29, 2009
      
      You have made yourself clear now. But I hope a series of well-written canon novels (or Countdown-esque comics) is enough to keep your thirst for the old universe-24th century quenched. If a TV series comes into fruition 5 years from now (after the remaining films have been released), I don't see Paramount or CBS going anywhere but in the new universe. It is that universe afterall that general audiences flocked to theaters to see.
      
      --------
      
      -- Steve
      "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
      
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RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:55:42 on Jun 28, 2009

It's pretty gutless. Based on every time travel adventure, the prime universe is gone. He should have the guts to either say that, or in the next movie flat out say that this is a different universe. Of course, if this is a different universe, these are different people, so it's NOT the same souls.

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- RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
  By: SuperDave (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:26:36 on Jun 28, 2009
  
  Yes, yes, yes, we all know you know better about the new movie then the people who actually wrote it.
  
  (Rolls eyes)
  
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RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:53:49 on Jun 28, 2009

I disagree somewhat. The whole concept of the movie is that, yes, the timeline has changed, but that there is also some natural force at work which is conspiring to bring characters together, and fundamentals to be established, when by all rights they shouldn't. e.g., Kirk running into the very cave on the very planet where Spock Prime is. They were very diligent about making that concept, which I guess is "Destiny", part of the mystery of Time. So one could argue that this "force" will continue to work its influence on into the Next Generation time frame.

Actually, it's interesting how they've really built this notion into this new incarnation so fundamentally. It allows them the freedom to tell entirely new adventures while flavoring them with familiar characters, incidents, etc. Pretty ingenious, really. We the audience, will recognize these parallels while the characters on screen (and perhaps some new fans in the theater) continue to operate clueless to the invisible hand moving them along. (Unless Spock Prime tells them, I guess) :)

Of course, none of this will detour fans who are determined to bellyache. They don't exactly drink from the trough of reason.

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- RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
  By: jimbtnp (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:30:16 on Jun 28, 2009
  
  the natural force you allude to is...
  
  BAD WRITING - and yes its definitely a natural force for these two and Hollywood ingeneral
  
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  - RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
    By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:50:14 on Jun 28, 2009 | (1)
    
    Sort of like the natural force that is you being one of the dumbest people in the history of the human race?
    
    Quote:
    BAD WRITING
    
    Oh... and you have no room to talk, Mr. "Nemesis iz teh awsum!!!!!!1!"
    
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    "Oh relax, Cupcake. It was a joke."- James T. Kirk
    
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- RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
  By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:39:15 on Jun 28, 2009
  
  I think there's truth in that. Definitely they were saying that somehow, history can repair itself to an extent and in general, you tend to end up in the right spot. I think that's actually further proof that this is the same universe, rewritten.
  
  After all, you don't see similar things happen in the mirror universe.
  
  But Star Trek certainly established that fate cannot overcome all historical changes. Death and life matter. If you kill someone who didn't die originally, fate can't fix that, and this movie showed that. Likewise, you can save someone who was SUPPOSED to die, and that changes history. See Edith Keeler.
  
  You can remove something from the timeline, and the Federation can't recover. Yesterday's Enterprise.
  
  This timeline cannot possibly evolve to the TNG timeline we knew. The destruction of Vulcan made that impossible. It would be an insult to our intelligence for example to assume that Tuvok was born. He either would have been a baby, or not quite conceived. To assume he made it off Vulcan in tact just doesn't fly.
  
  The techonology is different too. Galaxy Class vessels should come into existence far sooner than the E-D.
  
  The only way I can accept a proper TNG timeline would be if Abrams and co pulled the swerve I've been advocating since the movie came out and stick some known events in the NEW timeline. It's very doable given the incompetence of the B&B era. They screwed up canon so many times, why not just use the new timeline to explain some inconsistencies?
  
  Let's face it, no matter how many times the writers try to sell the concept that the original universe exists, nothing in the movie backs them up.
  
  If they want that, then they have to prove it on screen. And if they do that, then they are conceding that we are not watching the same characters. It's one or the other, and obviously, it's their choice.
  
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  - Look up your facts first... | Report this post to moderator
    By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 05:27:50 on Jun 29, 2009
    
    ... as Tuvok was born on a moon colony. Dependng when his parents moved there, he would still be born... just not exactly the same Tuvok.
    
    --------
    
    All message content � 2003 by Stilgar sietch_tabr[-at-]bigfoot.com, permission to reprint specifically denied to Michael Wong mike@stardestroyer.net ....
    
    "This used to be a Funhouse
    But now it's full of evil clowns"
    
    Pink, Funhouse
    
    BELOW Abrams-Trek: "It sounded like a good idea in the begining"
    
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  - RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
    By: SuperDave (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:30:55 on Jun 28, 2009
    
    Quote:
    Of course, none of this will detour fans who are determined to bellyache. They don't exactly drink from the trough of reason.
    
    You did get that this refers to you and your ilk, right?
    
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  - RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
    By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:56:45 on Jun 28, 2009
    
    Quote:
    The only way I can accept a proper TNG timeline would be if Abrams and co pulled the swerve I've been advocating since the movie came out and stick some known events in the NEW timeline. It's very doable given the incompetence of the B&B era. They screwed up canon so many times, why not just use the new timeline to explain some inconsistencies?
    
    Yeah... because that wouldn't at all be boring as hell.
    
    Quote:
    Let's face it, no matter how many times the writers try to sell the concept that the original universe exists, nothing in the movie backs them up.
    
    If they want that, then they have to prove it on screen. And if they do that, then they are conceding that we are not watching the same characters. It's one or the other, and obviously, it's their choice.
    
    *continues to be amused at internet fanboys who insist they know more about the film's intentions than the people who made it*
    
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    "Oh relax, Cupcake. It was a joke."- James T. Kirk
    
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    - RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
      By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:53:18 on Jun 28, 2009
      
      Quote:
      *continues to be amused at internet fanboys who insist they know more about the film's intentions than the people who made it*
      
      The people who made the film have simply "reassured" some diehards who cannot let the old universe go, that the old one still "exists" so as not to insite rage and sadness. Much like how your parents told you your grandparents were still alive in heaven after they died. Doesn't mean you are going to see them ever again though, so there's no point in standing at your front door waiting for them to walk through it someday.
      
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      -- Steve
      "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
      
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      - RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:47:17 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        Unless we're all now having this conversation in a "fake" existence which serves the ulterior motives of an alien race that zapped us with some beam.
        
        "Put your shoes away."
        
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      - RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:34:16 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        That's the thing, though. It isn't necessarily that everyone (or possibly even anyone) is truly expecting them to deal with the original Star Trek timeline again. Hell, after the success of this latest film, I, for one, think they would be stupid to even try going back to the original timeline on tv or in the movies.
        
        That said... Obviously, you don't agree, but when all of the people involved in the making of the film say that their intention was to create a seperate timeline from the one we've come to know over the last 40+ years, but which does not in any way destroy the original timeline, I am far more inclined to believe that over some fanboy on the internet, such as StillKirok, who insists that they "know" what the intention of the film was more so than those who made it.
        
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        "Oh relax, Cupcake. It was a joke."- James T. Kirk
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:56:56 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        Quote:
        But when all of the people involved say that their intention was to create a seperate timeline from the one we've come to know over the last 40+ years, but which does not in any way destroy the original timeline, I am far more inclined to believe that over some fanboy on the internet, such as StillKirok...
        
        Ironic, seeing as this topic is about the only thing StillKirok and I agree on.
        
        My point is, in every time travel movie and TV show I have ever watched before this one (Trek included), the consequences of messing with the past were dire. Call it the butterfly effect or the "Marty McFly pushing his dad out of the way of the car" effect if you must -- but there is only one TRUE timeline existing at any one time. It makes sense and as long as you are objective enough to see this makes sense (i.e. not emotionally bound by the old Trek universe) life will go on swimmingly! I am however open to acknowledge that the old universe exists as one of infitinte possibilities -- and again, only technically being real again if someone goes back to 2233 and stops Nero before the Kelvin finds him. Until then, the old universe is more "potential" right now than real. IMHO.
        
        --------
        
        -- Steve
        "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:33:03 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        The theory of Time in this movie is that it's fractured by its very nature. The Prime Timeline, as well as an infinite variety of other timelines, exist alongside the one sprouted by the events in this movie. This new sprouted timeline is the new Prime. You're right about that.
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:06:34 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        Like it or not, this isn't me as some fanboy making something up. My stance is based on 40+ years of footage that deals with this stuff. Canon. Onscreen. Backed up and iron clad.
        
        They can certainly change events, but they can't change the science. There is only 1 timeline. Many universes, one timeline.
        
        And if the studio wanted that truly, they simply would have put in a line where Spock says, "I was thrust into another, nearly identical universe, except things changed thanks to Nero."
        
        Not hard to do, not taking up much time, but they didn't do it.
        
        To simply say, "pay no attention to what you see, think what I tell you" really doesn't work on most people with a brain.
        
        So if they truly intend the prime universe exists, they need to establish it in some capacity. If the prime universe exists, then these are NOT the same characters we followed.
        
        That's fine.
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:46:15 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        Quote:
        My stance is based on 40+ years of footage that deals with this stuff. Canon. Onscreen. Backed up and iron clad.
        
        Yes, that is obviously the way it was generally handled on the shows/movies IN THE PAST. This new movie's production crew opted to approach it differently.
        
        Quote:
        And if the studio wanted that truly, they simply would have put in a line where Spock says, "I was thrust into another, nearly identical universe, except things changed thanks to Nero."
        
        Not hard to do, not taking up much time, but they didn't do it.
        
        They shouldn't have to. The production crew has only repeatedly spelled out their intentions for people in interviews since well before the film was even released.
        
        Just because you, for whatever reason, need them to spell it out for you on screen does not make you more "right" than the film's production crew with regards to what their intentions were when making the film.
        
        --------
        
        "Oh relax, Cupcake. It was a joke."- James T. Kirk
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 05:33:40 on Jun 29, 2009
        
        Quote:
        Yes, that is obviously the way it was generally handled on the shows/movies IN THE PAST. This new movie's production crew opted to approach it differently.
        
        NOT always, recall the TNG episode where there were countless timelines with small variations in them. Or for that matter the Mirror Universe is an example where two alternate timelines exist AT THE SAME TIME... so can somebody tell me again WHY it is impossible that another pairing of a similar kind to the Mirror Universe/ Original Universe can not exist?
        
        --------
        
        All message content � 2003 by Stilgar sietch_tabr[-at-]bigfoot.com, permission to reprint specifically denied to Michael Wong mike@stardestroyer.net ....
        
        "This used to be a Funhouse
        But now it's full of evil clowns"
        
        Pink, Funhouse
        
        BELOW Abrams-Trek: "It sounded like a good idea in the begining"
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:49:34 on Jun 29, 2009
        
        Quote:
        ..so can somebody tell me again WHY it is impossible that another pairing of a similar kind to the Mirror Universe/ Original Universe can not exist?
        
        In comes down to the fact that many of us simply do not CARE if there are any other universes concurrent or parallel to the new one because the new one is the ONLY one we're ever going to see anyway. So if people here sleep easier knowing their old universe is existing off somewhere in their imagination? Hey great! I'd rather focus on what the sequels and future television series' are going to depict, personally. I got over the end of the 24th century when I walked out of that theater in December of 2002.
        
        --------
        
        -- Steve
        "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
        
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        The argument all falls over in a heap with your assumption... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 11:47:05 on Jun 29, 2009 | (1)
        
        ... that the original timeline will not be continued. I thought about the same as you... but hoped that with enough discussion and prodding TPTB will want to continue the original timeline as well. According to the above article this may start happening now... so rather than keep on whining start prodding and talking up possible original timeline projects... some enthusiasm PLEASE!!! ... or I'll mail you some cheese for your whine! Consider the history of ST and fan campaigns and how the history was affected... or for that MATTER read what the current TPTB are saying REPEATEDLY about looking for fan reaction, opinions, and all options being open... I would not even call it in between the lines, but rather obvious!
        
        At least we can agree that the original timeline still exists within ST canon in a fashion similar to the Mirror Universe timeline.
        
        ... or are you worried about losing the bet you made against me that if your board signature statement turns out to be false, you have to eat a pair of your own socks and post of video of it on YouTube?
        
        --------
        
        All message content � 2003 by Stilgar sietch_tabr[-at-]bigfoot.com, permission to reprint specifically denied to Michael Wong mike@stardestroyer.net ....
        
        "This used to be a Funhouse
        But now it's full of evil clowns"
        
        Pink, Funhouse
        
        BELOW Abrams-Trek: "It sounded like a good idea in the begining"
        
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        RE: The argument all falls over in a heap with your assumption... | Report this post to moderator
        By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:34:19 on Jun 29, 2009
        
        Quote:
        ... or are you worried about losing the bet you made against me that if your board signature statement turns out to be false, you have to eat a pair of your own socks and post of video of it on YouTube?
        
        I am so confident that the statement in my board signature will end up being true, that I will gladly remove a pair of socks I am wearing on a webcam, put them in my mouth and begin chewing on them -- holding up a sign that says "YOU WERE RIGHT, I WAS WRONG." It's not like I don't want to see more of Picard, Janeway and the universe they live in -- on the contrary! I am just a realist and I am VERTY confident that Paramount is too smart to dip back into that well again and lose the new audience they just obtained.
        
        --------
        
        -- Steve
        "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:36:03 on Jun 29, 2009
        
        Quote:
        The production crew has only repeatedly spelled out their intentions for people in interviews since well before the film was even released.
        
        Their intentions? Even if the writers say in interviews, "The old universe? Well, yeah it still exists.. don't worry." It doesn't mean they are ever going to show it again.
        
        Quote:
        Just because you, for whatever reason, need them to spell it out for you on screen does not make you more "right" than the film's production crew with regards to what their intentions were when making the film.
        
        You continually repeat the term "production crew" in order to try and make your point stronger? Whether or not the writers "assure" some of you in an interview tha the old universe is still around or not -- all this back and forth is pointless because they and the studios arent going back there ever again! Knowing that, who cares if the old universe is still around or not?
        
        --------
        
        -- Steve
        "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:46:45 on Jun 29, 2009
        
        Quote:
        Their intentions? Even if the writers say in interviews, "The old universe? Well, yeah it still exists.. don't worry." It doesn't mean they are ever going to show it again.
        
        Quote:
        You continually repeat the term "production crew" in order to try and make your point stronger? Whether or not the writers "assure" some of you in an interview tha the old universe is still around or not -- all this back and forth is pointless because they and the studios arent going back there ever again! Knowing that, who cares if the old universe is still around or not?
        
        And I've already said that I think they would be stupid to even try going back to the old universe on tv/films. It does not change the fact that it has been repeatedly stated that in their vision of Star Trek, the new guys have created a new, seperate reality, but where the one we've become overly familiar with over the last 40+ years is still out there somewhere.
        
        Again, I'll take the word of those involved in making the film over that of internet fanboys any day.
        
        But you are correct in one thing. In the end... really... who gives a shit? After all, we're debating the continued existence of a fictional universe. ;-)
        
        --------
        
        "Oh relax, Cupcake. It was a joke."- James T. Kirk
        
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      - RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: DixonHill (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:42:29 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        This is STAR TREK! It's almost a given there will be direct exploration of this topic at some point. You know, it would be a great idea to have a "Trials and Tribble-ation" kinda episode or special for Trek's 50th anniversray in which the new crew explores the original timeline, wandering around that strangely different (original) NCC-1701 designed by George Kirk and Admiral Robeau...
        
        You people are giving me a hard time. Why are so many of you unable to accept that there are two timelines now? Quoting old timetravel episodes (in which the original timeline was seemingly eradicated) just doesn't make sense because we've always seen these changes through the eye of the beholder (Picard, Guinan, Kirk) who REALIZED these changes. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that there wasn't the original timeline left in "City on the Edge of Forever" even though McCoy had supposedly altered history. The quantum option never ceased to exist. That's why there will always be the our timeline and the mirror universe and infinite other versions of the universe! That's the very core of Star Trek and Vulcan belief! IDIC...
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:14:11 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        Quote:
        You people are giving me a hard time. Why are so many of you unable to accept that there are two timelines now?
        
        Because the original one of the two will only ever be seen again in comics, novels and fan fiction. The 716 hours of DVDs exist and you can go back them whenever you like. Paramount and CBS have moved on however. We can argue about whether the old universe "exists", "could exist" or just simply doesn't at all anymore. Fact is, there is only one that matters from here on out and that is the new one -- on the big screen and eventually on television.
        
        --------
        
        -- Steve
        "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: DixonHill (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:57:06 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        Even if it WAS true and we never saw the old timeline again on screen - which I don't believe - the main question is whether it still exists within the fictional world of Star Trek. And there it does exist. Anything else doesn't really matter to me at all...
        
        The only old Trel show I'd die to see again is ENT and that one hasn't been affected by Nero at all...
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:49:40 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        Quote:
        Even if it WAS true and we never saw the old timeline again on screen - which I don't believe..
        
        And why don't you? What makes you think that the studio would go back to a universe that general audiences haven't been interested in, in years? Are you not satisfied with the novels, comics and fan films? You need to face the fact that Stewart, Frakes, Spiner, Mulgrew, etc. are not suiting up in their uniforms ever again. EVER.
        
        --------
        
        -- Steve
        "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Ichthus (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:35:15 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        Studio executives make rather bizzare decisions all the time. That's why I don't rule out the possiblity of going back to the Prime Universe. However, that doesn't mean I think it is a good idea. It is clear that the writers intention is to have the Prime Universe coexist along side the Alternate Universe for posterity. It should, also, help prevent someone trying to fit the adventures of the Alternate Universe into the Events of the Prime Universe. Something that would no doubt occur had they not dealt with Star Trek's 40+ years history.
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:09:14 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        Quote:
        Studio executives make rather bizzare decisions all the time.
        
        True for sure. But let's hope Abrams has taken the old Studio boys out of the equation (at least in part) when it comes to plot decisions.
        
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        RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
        By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:22:13 on Jun 28, 2009
        
        Quote:
        Let's hope Abrams has taken the old Studio boys out of the equation (at least in part) when it comes to plot decisions.
        
        J.J. Abrams is Paramount's golden boy right now. I can guarantee you they will let him to do pretty much what he wants with the franchise after seeing what he was able to do with it in just his first attempt. If he wants to stay in his universe (which it sounds like he plans to) then that is where we will go. Can't wait!
        
        --------
        
        -- Steve
        "If a sixth Star Trek television series is ever realized, it will be set in the new universe." -- cdydatzigs, June 15, 2009.
        
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RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: VoR (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:07:24 on Jun 28, 2009

Eh....the TNG universe had a good run on TV, and had its chance on film. I won't miss not seeing new incarnations of it.

--------

Flavius: What do you call those?
Spock: I call them ears.
Flavius: Are you trying to be funny?
Spock: Never.

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Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator By: USShawk (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:39:20 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:11:53 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:41:53 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator By: USShawk (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:28:54 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:40:32 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:45:31 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:36:46 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:08:21 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:51:22 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:23:11 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:31:14 on Jun 28, 2009

Emotion | Report this post to moderator By: VoR (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:05:17 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Emotion | Report this post to moderator By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:52:25 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Emotion | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:45:13 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Emotion | Report this post to moderator By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:57:04 on Jun 28, 2009

Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:00:24 on Jun 28, 2009

To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 05:24:10 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:59:03 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 11:36:47 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:29:42 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:55:42 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: SuperDave (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:26:36 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:53:49 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: jimbtnp (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:30:16 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:50:14 on Jun 28, 2009 | (1)

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:39:15 on Jun 28, 2009

Look up your facts first... | Report this post to moderator By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 05:27:50 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: SuperDave (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:30:55 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:56:45 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:53:18 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:47:17 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:34:16 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:56:56 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:33:03 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:06:34 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:46:15 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 05:33:40 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:49:34 on Jun 29, 2009

The argument all falls over in a heap with your assumption... | Report this post to moderator By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 11:47:05 on Jun 29, 2009 | (1)

RE: The argument all falls over in a heap with your assumption... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:34:19 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:36:03 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:46:45 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: DixonHill (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:42:29 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:14:11 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: DixonHill (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:57:06 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:49:40 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: Ichthus (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:35:15 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:09:14 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:22:13 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator By: VoR (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:07:24 on Jun 28, 2009

Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Credit is due.... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
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Emotion | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Emotion | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Emotion | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Emotion | Report this post to moderator
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Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:00:24 on Jun 28, 2009

To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator
By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 05:24:10 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator
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RE: To me it sounds... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:29:42 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:55:42 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: SuperDave (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:26:36 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:53:49 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: jimbtnp (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:30:16 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:50:14 on Jun 28, 2009 | (1)

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:39:15 on Jun 28, 2009

Look up your facts first... | Report this post to moderator
By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 05:27:50 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: SuperDave (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:30:55 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:56:45 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:53:18 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:47:17 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:34:16 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:56:56 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:33:03 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: StillKirok (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:06:34 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:46:15 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 05:33:40 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:49:34 on Jun 29, 2009

The argument all falls over in a heap with your assumption... | Report this post to moderator
By: Stilgar (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 11:47:05 on Jun 29, 2009 | (1)

RE: The argument all falls over in a heap with your assumption... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:34:19 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:36:03 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: Kamen Rider Blade (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:46:45 on Jun 29, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: DixonHill (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:42:29 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:14:11 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: DixonHill (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:57:06 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:49:40 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: Ichthus (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:35:15 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: c.p. (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:09:14 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: cdydatzigs (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:22:13 on Jun 28, 2009

RE: Ohhh, that ole' can of worms... | Report this post to moderator
By: VoR (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:07:24 on Jun 28, 2009