When tptb did away with Captain Kirk they killed the franchise.
You just can't replace cultural icons with the cast/series of the month.
Even Mr Braga thinks it was a bad idea.
It's not to late to bring Shatner/Kirk back and save the series.
I agree some of these people shouldnt be wishing personal harm to these people...however the internet bitching as he puts it, happened because somebody at sompoint a few years ago decided to change star trek core rules that made it successful for all this time and take it down a path that wasn't its own. And when you have that in place in business you do not change because you come into working for star trek or the original creator is no longer around, his idea and mold for the show is its formula for success, its been proven, why change the rules that brings you that success over and over, regardless of how much you disagree with this original formula, its the reason for the continued success and you can't go against.. I understand that whoever these TV Producers or Writers are there to work but they have a successful set rules to guide them to great Star Trek material and there to add there creativity, but in a business situation formula which has proven time and time again, as long as people keep flocking to that core ingrediant than don't change it. Because there are telling that is why they keep coming back. That core of rules is the reason for the repeated success over and over it does'nt get old. And as a fan that is the attraction those set of rules, incrediants which makes it the success and will keep me coming back and "spending my dollars" so to speak. And isn't that what the Studio is in business for to make money, they won't this way.
Star Trek at this point is more of a TV Show at this point, it proves a basic business fundamental practice of continuing to "roll in the dough" If Paramount is smart they should really be looking at that if they want it to bring back as its cash cow.
This is the point of all the bitching because they can clearly see the change in core set of rules in the end product its a clear as day, thats all this anger and what point has been tried to get across. The quality of the product is just not there and people know it. If the original quality of the product has changed or not at the same than people will simply not come back and "buy it"
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I agree with you fully -- well put. A lot of things bothered me reading this interview, and he's really all over the place (even saying "we didn't want to be writing this" haha). Saying he'd do this and that, wishes this and that, feels bad about this and that, etc. etc. Enough already with the lame backpeddling. Notice how he even sort of takes the blame for Berman, who would never come on here and make those statements, even though (I believe) it's MORE Berman's fault than Brannon's. Braga is Berman's mouthpiece.
As to what you said here, that's what bothered me about aspects of DS9 (the war for example) and Voyager (endless villainous species and diplomacy failing over and over again, resulting in exciting phaser and torpedo fire). And somehow the core principles seemed to have changed. What's wrong with a show about a ship out there exploring space using the latest technology at the time, encountering the unknown, with wonder and awe, with conflict added in as a meaningful part of the story being told, encountering interesting species and commenting on societal issues at the same time? Done right this can actually be entertaining and draw viewers without endless gunfights (TNG for example??). With declining ratings for the later shows they tried to draw viewers with the bang-up approach and this only hurt things in the long run. ENT sort of tried to avoid this trap IMO, but it failed because of lame stories and glaring continuity breaches, most of all not making the show look and feel like it's taking place 100 years before Kirk.
Thanks to Peter Griffin for the header.
So...
This is why I don't post on message boards much.
Look, Brannon Braga is a friend and has been nothing but gracious to my wife and I. Rick Berman on the few occasions I've met him has been polite and accomodating. On that basis I've nothing bad to say about the personal character of either of them.
Unlike many, many people here who have *never been within a thousand miles* of them who spend their spare time attacking their personal character as people.
I've seen people, and I quote, "wish they would be eaten by cancer."
Don't even get me started on the overabundance of actual human emotion that I've seen people like this 'Scorned' guy devote to bitching about incarnations of Star Trek and their producers. There's a hurricane tearing up the south and soldiers and civilians are dying in Iraq. One can pick something more pressing to be THAT angry about.
Professional criticism is one thing. Were I tasked with running the previous two Star Trek spinoffs, I would have made a fair amount of different choices than they did, out of preference. They are allowed their tastes too. There's work they did that I loved and work they did that wasn't my thing.
So you have a channel changer, an off button, and your original series, TNG, DS9, movie, or whatever incarnation's DVD's that you like. Its just that simple. They are *TV PRODUCERS*, not people who have caused you personal harm.
Part of this franchise's hiatus is because after 18 years in which 25 seasons of television and four feature films were made, an amazing achievment for ANYONE, it becomes harder to make fresh, compelling material. And I think since the latter 90's, despite a lot of creative people's best efforts, there became something of a formulaic vibe to the product being put out.
Films like Insurrection, which were written, designed, lit, and executed like a blown up television episode didn't help.
Again, I respect Brannon very much and I think he is very talented (he wrote some MARVELOUS TNG and some Voyager I like very much), but he once made a comment that he fears Enterprise may have strayed too far off the paradigm, too non 'traditional'.
I disagree, I feel there was not ENOUGH to distinguish Enterprise from its counterparts.
Were I only a casual sci-fi watcher, I would have turned my television set on to Enterprise to see and hear a television series written, designed, lit, scored, and cut nearly stylistically identical to its sibling shows. I would have no way of knowing it was a 'pre Kirk' low tech prequal. I am not as hard on Enterprise as many are, as I grew up with TNG and got used to the look, feel, and sound of Rick Berman-produced Star Trek. I just felt like a greater tonal change and less conservative approach would've helped. There's something to be said for brand identity, but given that Enterprise needed to prove Star Trek's viability, I think a viewer reaction of, "THIS is Star Trek?!" rather than "Oh, this is Star Trek..." would've had more positive impact.
That having been said, people like many of you are ONE of the contributing factors of why we no longer have new product from this franchise. The Internet began to rise in public recognition around 94, 95. A little bit following the end of TNG.
But the folk devoted so fiercely as to post on the internet about Star Trek were, and still are, a fringe minority compared to the rest of Star Trek fandom.
The mainstream media are lazy. The Internet gave them a way of gauging how the fans felt about current Star Trek whenever a piece had to be written, and the perpetually negative opinions of that fringe minority were the easiest source for mainstream entertainment journalists to look up.
So suddenly, the little fringe voice of fans griping about how much Star Trek "sucks" now becomes echoed in a big media loudspeaker to the public, who get their information in paragraphs and soundbites. The seed is now planted by the minority that Star Trek "sucks" and we have it as a stigma. Thanks, Internet fans!
My point of this entire diatribe is this... what Brannon Braga is trying to do here is address that many people didn't care for modern Star Trek's finale.
What people don't undersatand is they were backed into a corner. There was still that slim chance it could have been renewed for season 5, and it had to be written as a contingency well in advance of news of cancellation to make it to air on schedule. Wouldn't YOU be embarassed if you wrote a complete closure finale when suddenly you got picked up for a 5th season? Its a rough spot.
A similar situation happened to J. Michael Straczynski, oddly enough, between the 4th and 5th seasons of Babylon 5. When the 5th seasonw as on the bubble, another episode written that could "act" like a finale but not bring full closure incase they WERE picked up. And yes, I know the separately-filmed 'Sleeping in Light' is the difference between this story and theirs, but the point is that the episode that aired at the end of B5 season 4 was a "contingency finale".
He does not need to go out and address what people feel are flaws in his work. He did so anyway. He really tried to say, "We liked it, we wanted it to be great, many of you did not like it, we're sorry you feel that way." And nothing but hostility is levied to him about something that's not even real.
I'm not angry about a debate about a TV show. I'm angry because people are attacking the fundamental humanity of someone Allison and I have come to know as a good human being.
And jesus, I was in a damn *documentary* about this crap. With a mullet!!! Lighten up guys!!! :)
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--Gabriel C. Koerner
Getting the Cheese to Sickbay in Style.
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Quote from GabrielCKoerner:
So suddenly, the little fringe voice of fans griping about how much Star Trek "sucks" now becomes echoed in a big media loudspeaker to the public, who get their information in paragraphs and soundbites. The seed is now planted by the minority that Star Trek "sucks" and we have it as a stigma. Thanks, Internet fans!
That theory doesn't quite hold for what appeared to happen through Season Four: Online (hence, media) praise of ENT swelled while actual TV viewership continued to drop.
Methinks B&B played the online crowd like a harp, starting in the summer hiatus before S4. Coto's TOS-coated lip service worked like a Jedi mind-trick. Meanwhile, the millions of TV viewers who don't frequent these forums (nor read sci-fi magazines) judged ENT solely by what they saw onscreen, which was just more of the usual crappy scripts.
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THE MASK: Life Size Replica
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Quote:
The mainstream media are lazy. The Internet gave them a way of gauging how the fans felt about current Star Trek whenever a piece had to be written, and the perpetually negative opinions of that fringe minority were the easiest source for mainstream entertainment journalists to look up.
Unfortunately, I also believe that those same negative comments were either ignored by Messrs. Berman and Braga, or they were belittled as "continuity porn." In addition, it may appear that Paramount paid more attention to the MSM's coverage of fans' dislike than the producers did. The internet works both ways, and had Rick and Brannon paid attention (even to the "squeaky wheels" out there), ENT might actually be preparing for its fifth season premiere.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post, Gabe. Good luck with your next project!
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A generation which ignores history has no past and no future. -- Robert Heinlein
PCLinuxOS
falcon
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The illogic of this passeth all understanding...
If we don't like it, turn it off, he says. Result - no more Trek because it's "lost its audience."
If we complain about the quality and keep it on, we're stuck with drek posing as Trek and risk hurting their poor widdle feewings. Result - no more Trek because the MSM has magnified our complaints and we've demoralized poor Mr. Braga.
The only choice left is "take what we're gracious enough to offer and be satisfied with it." Pfui. We have brains, sir. We may be willing to suspend our disbelief, but we'll never suspend our intellects. That's what makes Trek fans special.
Oh, and for the love of Pete, Braga hasn't "been gracious to my wife and I." He might, however, have been "gracious to my wife and me." A quibble, true, but I, the Grammar Goddess, simply can't let that pass.
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What's amazing to me is that while the quality may or may not have been just like the previous series, the fact remains that it didn't hold the audience's attention. I stuck with it because I'm a die hard Trekkie, but it's true that they needed to attract a wider audience to stay afloat. They failed in that respect, and in the process they drove away and alienated a significant portion of the remaining audience as well.
What we saw in the final season was what I was hoping for from day one. But by then, Paramount had made it's decision, and a wise decision it was. Berman and Braga Trek had ceased to be a vital presentaion long ago. There was no way that they would ever be able to attract new viewers with their preconceptions about the show they work on so firmly cemented in their microcosm of the Paramount offices and lots.
Star Trek needs a new feeling and look. Nothing drastic, it's the little things that count. If they returned to the cardboard sets and day-glo costumes the show would be a hit if the writing was on target. Star Trek has taken to imitating it's imitators. It needs to be bold once again. I think the fans will get their wish and Star Trek will set box office records again once someone who is energetic about it is calling the shots. If I were a VIACOM exec, I wouldn't have been very enthused about the show. It was a failure almost all the way through.
Long live Star Trek! I can wait, because no Trek is better than bad Trek.
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To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And, at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between, plus some things I can't remember, all rolled into one big 'thing.' This is truth, to me.
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So, are you saying that the bulk of Star Trek fans like Brannon Braga and his work? But wait, I don't want to bash him, or even talk about him. His time is over. I think that if someone else comes along and makes mistakes with the franchise, it will be easier to forgive than someone who has worked with the franchise for a long time and seems to want to take things in illogical and detrimental directions. And I thought it was bad when the fans booed David Gerrold at a Star Trek convention I attended in the 1970s. Braga had the opportunity to be a hero to Star Trek fans. Instead, he enraged them with comments and actions that spoke to his unwillingness to really "get" Star Trek.
Now, you have to realize that the internet is here to stay. And if you haven't noticed by now, human beings tend to be negative...especially people who were made fun of for being smart, geeky, interested in things like astronomy, science, and science fiction. I think that Braga has been short sighted. I know that he has to answer to the executives at Paramount, but there comes a time in one's life where a decision must be made. Either live a life that one can be proud of, or change the situation so that one can be proud of their life. If I started getting feedback at my job that I was screwing up left and right, and that my coworkers and the customers were hating the job that I do, I'd find another place to work, or another field even. If there's one thing that is a crime, it's not aiming high. I don't think that Braga aimed high enough. Life in Hollywood corrupts people's sensibilities, they're blinded by the money. I don't think that Braga really gives a fig about the fans. I think he fanned the flames that in turn caused the fans to flame him. ENTERPRISE could have been the best ever Star Trek series across the board, but there were too many problems, and a lot of denial about what the fans were feeling and expressing on the web. For every fan who said something negative about ENT on the web, there are at least four more who don't go on the internet who feel the same way, and two more who didn't even know that there was a new Star Trek series on the air.
I'm sure that Brannon Braga isn't an axe murderer. Yes, I've expressed my displeasure with both Berman and Braga, but now it would appear that they're done as far as the franchise is concerned. I think that this is a good thing. ENT was like the previous series, only done worse. It's no wonder that it did so poorly. If it were of average quality or better, word of mouth would have spread and the show would have opened new markets for UPN. But it was lackluster, and ENT was only the most recent addition to the ongoing story of the Federation, Starfleet, and humanity's stretch to the stars. In short, Enterprise is guilty of imitating it's imitators. ENT really needed to do something different. If they had surprised everyone by doing a show that featured a crew in uniforms that resembled TOS uniforms a little, with an uber-arc that relates to things that culminate later in the franchise history, with smaller stories that define the struggle humans had to overcome to eventually be the glue that holds the quadrant together, then I think that the show would be a hit.
I hope that the next installation of Star Trek isn't accompanied by the vitriol that was drawn out by the previous two series. The bile that has grown so intense is the result of the same two people doing the same old thing for too long, when one is bored, the quality of their work decreases. When that happens, I usually find a new job. If I don't find a new job, I get fired. A bored worker is unproductive. Braga's threshold will probably do alright. I couldn't imagine working in a creative capacity for more than five years at the same place...I'd go nuts...and I do have to be creative at work.
I think we all need to be ready to move on. To wait during this drought of Trek and balance our perspective about this whole thing as we do.
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To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And, at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between, plus some things I can't remember, all rolled into one big 'thing.' This is truth, to me.
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Honestly, There comes a time when things become to formulaic.. Thats why, You Should Step Aside and let fresh blood flow into the show.. Ergo Manny Coto.
I keep moving around to different departments because things become stale... It keeps me from going insane.. And my work performance increases...
I'm sorry, it almost sounds like he's admitting he did something wrong [we, for those who read a little bit of this, I just skimmed it].
After he f***s the future of Trek and [is] move[d] on, he admits he's done all he can w/ Trek.
Geez, the rest of the world figured that one out before Enterprise.
Now he regrets killing Kirk? [i]-mind you. the lower post does this sooooo good[ie].
Avoid dark alleys pal. And well lite ones too for that matter.
And why is anyone listening?
I agree with Braga on one thing. ST should not be rebooted. It is a terrible idea. Star Trek has years upon years of backstory. If it was forgotten, I would probably walk away from the franchise. I hav emy TOS and DS9 dvds. I am happy.
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"I’m worried about an opponent who uses nation-building and the military in the same sentence."
George W. Bush, 2000
Get busy living, or get busy dying.
Scott's Journal
CM: What about killing Captain Kirk? How did that happen?
BB: I'm sorry?
CM: Killing Captain Kirk? How did the idea come about?
BB: Captain……who? Kirk? (scratches head)
CM: The captain of the first Star Trek series?
BB: Oh you mean, that bald fellow right? What Captain Picard? No no no we didn’t kill him. For the NEXT next gen film we did concive a creative plot that involved time travel.. and would see the death of Picard, but after Nemisis franchise fatigue had already set in and it never got made.
CM: Sorry we seem to be having a misunderstanding, I am talking about William Shatner, Captain Kirk, the very first captain of the star ship enterprise, not Captain Picard from the Next generation.
BB:……..the first captain of the enterprise……….,oh….ummm, you mean Captain Archer. No we didn’t kill him either….but since you brought it up, if franchise fatigue hadn't of set in, and we had been given another series, a creative decision had already been made to kill him using time travellers from the future………..
CM: I AM TALKING ABOUT Captain James T Kirk, from the original series in the 70s, WILLIAM SHATNER, remember?
BB: Original Star trek series? Errrr (looks around the room)……………..Ummm….next genera……………….. Could you hold on for one just one moment please?
CM: Sure……
(BB pulls mobile phone from pocket and dials…)
BB: Hello, Hi Rick its me Braga………………I’m in the middle of an interview with a guy whose asking me about a Captain Kirk? Something about an original TV series?
RB: Captain Kirk?
BB: Yeah, played by William Shatner, he was like the original Enterprise Captain or something?
RB: Oh, they mean Archer.
BB: Err…… no, apparently not, they are talking about some series from the 70s?
RB: ………………I think I remember…………oh yeah, that was a show that was cancelled after a couple of seasons,……… yeah it was cancelled because it wasn’t very popular , what do they want to know about that for?
BB: They want to know why we killed off the Captain in one of our films or something?
RB: Oh crap…………….Okay, now remember that talk we had about difficult questions? Either blame it on franchise fatigue, blame the fans or tell them it was a creative decision.....
BB: Okay Rick, I’ll do that, and while I am on the phone with you, I need to talk to you later about threshold, I have this great idea that involves time travel……………I don’t want to go into in to much detail over the phone so I'll catch up with you later.
RB: Wow that sounds like a great idea, talk to you later.
(phone hangs up BB turns back)
CM: So ummm Captain Kirk? Killing him, how did that happen?
BB: That was a creative decision on the part of Rick Berman, Ronald D. Moore, me, and William Shatner. We all -- and, of course, Paramount -- but...
CM: And Shatner, really, was involved in it?
CM: And Shatner also?
BB: Oh yeah.
CM: Okay.
BB: Yeah, I mean, Shatner was involved all along the way -- in developing the script, and the character work, and his death, and...
CM: Okay.
BB: Um, yeah, he was... he had, you know, obviously, a strong opinion about it. But, it was really a group decision. And it was, uh, thematically, a passing of the baton from one generation to the other. And, uh...
CM: Right. And, I guess, Shatner would want anything that where he gets to have more drama. I mean, you know, death is certainly drama.
BB: Yeah, well, absolutely. You know, again, in retrospect, um, you wonder if it was exactly the way... was it done right, was it as effective as it could have been? Captain Kirk died on a bridge, should he have died on the bridge of his starship? There was a lot of stuff that I personally -- I can't speak for the other gentlemen involved -- but I personally would love to go back in time, like a Star Trek episode, and redo some stuff.
CM: Well, we all wish we could, about all of our work, constantly. I mean, that's the danger of TV and film, versus live work.
BB: Yeah. It felt like a dramatic thing to do. Um, and we were all very happy with it at the time.
CM: Got it. Okay. I'm just... Hey, listen, I'm just moderating, basically, today...
BB: Yeah, leave me alone, Chase! [chuckle]
CM: Huuuhh, these questions are coming from the fans!
BB: I'm kidding. I welcome controversial questions. It makes it more interesting.
Magic beans are great, I planted them in the garden and the next day I had a beanstalk reaching into the clouds. Upon climbing the beanstalk I found
If he regrets Kirk's death so much, then why all talk about it and no action? He's had over 10 years to make it right, and nothing! All talk, no action makes Brannon a dull boy!
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"Men don't use sex to get what they want. Sex IS what they want" - Frasier
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More on Kirk's death--he was asked a direct question. Why didn't he ANSWER it with a simple, "yes, I screwed up?" Is he still that thick to think that anyone DOESN'T think that killing Kirk was the biggest bonehead move in Trek history, and probably the biggest symbol of his disgusting run as one of the main guys to bring Star Trek down?
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Quote from Scorpius:
If he regrets Kirk's death so much, then why all talk about it and no action?
Braga said that he, Berman, Moore, and William Shatner were in agreement over the death of Kirk. That could mean there hasn't been a subsequent collective impetus at the studio to undo the deed.
Here's a transcript excerpt from that portion of TheFandom interview...
CM: What about killing Captain Kirk? How did that happen? And, tell me your real role in that; tell me how much of that was from Rick's, uh, you know, direction. How much of that was any kind of Paramount decision? Tell me about the death of Kirk.
BB: That was a creative decision on the part of Rick Berman, Ronald D. Moore, me, and William Shatner. We all -- and, of course, Paramount -- but...
CM: And Shatner, really, was involved in it?
BB: I'm sorry?
CM: And Shatner also?
BB: Oh yeah.
CM: Okay.
BB: Yeah, I mean, Shatner was involved all along the way -- in developing the script, and the character work, and his death, and...
CM: Okay.
BB: Um, yeah, he was... he had, you know, obviously, a strong opinion about it. But, it was really a group decision. And it was, uh, thematically, a passing of the baton from one generation to the other. And, uh...
CM: Right. And, I guess, Shatner would want anything that where he gets to have more drama. I mean, you know, death is certainly drama.
BB: Yeah, well, absolutely. You know, again, in retrospect, um, you wonder if it was exactly the way... was it done right, was it as effective as it could have been? Captain Kirk died on a bridge, should he have died on the bridge of his starship? There was a lot of stuff that I personally -- I can't speak for the other gentlemen involved -- but I personally would love to go back in time, like a Star Trek episode, and redo some stuff.
CM: Well, we all wish we could, about all of our work, constantly. I mean, that's the danger of TV and film, versus live work.
BB: Yeah. It felt like a dramatic thing to do. Um, and we were all very happy with it at the time.
CM: Got it. Okay. I'm just... Hey, listen, I'm just moderating, basically, today...
BB: Yeah, leave me alone, Chase! [chuckle]
CM: Huuuhh, these questions are coming from the fans!
BB: I'm kidding. I welcome controversial questions. It makes it more interesting.
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Try before you buy Video Games!
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Sounds from the excerpt that Braga was making it up as he went along. According to Get A Life, Shatner had very little to no input on the actual death, and all his suggestions were shot down.
Not to mention that Shatner tried to get the character back for a decade while smug snotnose "writers" like Braga and idiot producers like Berman wouldn't allow it.
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Thanks for the transcript.
The real obstacle has been Rick Berman, but anything Brannon wants, like a spoilt child, he'd probably get.
Shatner's role is overstated here. According to the vibe at the time and just after, he agreed to a glorious death scene, but he had nothing to do with the story or scripting.
In fact he so regretted it, he immediately pitched a sequel movie in which Kirk returns, which as you know ended up in the bestselling novel. Berman was the obstacle to that ever getting made.
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"Men don't use sex to get what they want. Sex IS what they want" - Frasier
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Quote from Scorpius:
Shatner's role is overstated here. According to the vibe at the time and just after, he agreed to a glorious death scene, but he had nothing to do with the story or scripting.
There's a small Trek website that appears to quote Shatner and Moore from the ST:GENERATIONS DVD (which I don't have, so I can't confirm these quotes)...
Ronald Moore: "We fully expected that the studio would say, 'No, you can't possibly kill the Captain,' because Kirk really is one of their golden characters, but they didn't have that reaction. Instead, they just asked us, 'Are you sure you want to do this?' And when we said, 'Yes, we are,' they said 'Okay, we're behind you,' and we went back to the office and waited for (William Shatner) to say, 'No.'"
William Shatner: "When Rick first called me and told me about wanting to knock off the Captain, it really didn't bother me at all. Not one bit. In fact, I got really excited, thinking 'Well, if this really is going to be Kirk's last hurrah, what better way to close the book?'" Shatner tentatively agreed to the project, pending his approval of his role in the script.
Ronald Moore: "I really felt that Kirk's death would finally bring closure to the original Trek, and as a writer on 'The Next Generation' TV series, I always felt that we should close that door, because it was starting to become a cheat to just keep ignoring the question of 'Whatever happened to Kirk?' I'd heard Gene say a couple times that he thought Kirk would most likely be dead by the twenty-fourth century, so we felt that our idea was sort of in that spirit."
With William Shatner's tentative agreement to the project, drafts of the script were then also sent to Leonard Nimoy and DeForest Kelley. Nimoy was also asked by Berman to direct Star Trek Generations.
Shatner also had concerns about the film when receiving his script.
William Shatner: "My friend James Tiberius didn't quite seem himself. He had no overall theme, no thrust, nothing that made this part uniquely and absolutely Kirk's. With that in mind, I began meeting with Rick and the writers, suggesting a few changes and rewrites." The script was modified until it met Shatner's approval and he officially signed onto the film.
William Shatner: "Surprisingly, I still felt very little remorse about the captain's terminal status. In fact, I was a lot more worried about working with Walter Koenig and Jimmy Doohan, two men who have made it clear on any number of occasions that my name is generally near the top of their sh-t lists."
William Shatner: "Kirk's dying words read, 'It was fun,' and I quickly determined to make it very clear that Kirk was speaking not only of his escapade with Picard, but of his entire life."
William Shatner: "I did it. I killed Kirk and I think I killed him well, using all of the emotions I'd denied for so long in allowing the man to battle, then ultimately accept his impending death, while simultaneously peering into the greatest mystery of all."
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STAR TREK Starfleet Hockey Jersey T-Shirt
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A lot of those quotes are old. Shatner tells a much different story in the opening excerpt of GET A LIFE, which is available on Amazon. He had a bunch of ideas that were summarily rejected. As has been stated and well documented, he obviously didn't like the death, since he pitched THE RETURN on the set, and Berman foolishly told him no.
I can't even make myself read this interview.
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"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
-James Madison
(and again, my reply to Scorned ends up as a new topics)
I think, I understand what you're saying. Maybe Star Trek could have been saved from this messy situation if B&B had stepped back when VOY ended, and allowed Star Trek to catch its breath again. A hiatus back then might have done the franchise good. Maybe the death-march had already begun when ENT premiered. I think Rick Berman said so himself, that he felt it was too soon (at least for them as producers) to produce another series.
Now I think everyone needs to get a fresh perspective. Only time can provide that. I don't think its time to produce a mega-movie trilogy. There is too much unrest among fans, and Berman doesn't know where to take the francise either.
Do you?
What about DS9 and Voyager?
I have definitely had my share of criticism for the Braga, but I have to admit he's right about some things...
If Enterprise had had the full franchise fanbase that had dwindled over the years, a lot of people would probably have thought it was a cool way to end from a franchise perspective. It wasn't a great finale episode, but there really wasn't anything conceptually wrong with it. But since most of the true believers had quit watching long ago, you didn't have that franchise core to appreciate the nod back to where this leg of Trek all began.
Nice to see him recognize that the Kirk aspect of Generations was poorly handled. Of the three involved - Berman, Braga and Moore, I wonder whose decision that was, or if it was a joint decision?
He's absolutely, positively correct that there's too much history and too much of an audience to offer a Star Trek reboot. He's also dead on that Star Trek should be positive - the tone of a show like BSG can be enjoyable, but it just isn't right for Star Trek. Again, there's too much history - Star Trek at it's most successful and when it is closest to GR's intention, is about a positive future for humanity.
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"Now the Senate is looking for moderate judges, mainstream judges. What in the world is a moderate interpretation of a constitutional text? Halfway between what it says and what we'd like it to say?" - Justice Scalia
I know it must be painful for Mr. Braga to sit through this, knowing that some people trashes everything he has to say, and this entire situation with Star Trek (that he obviously loves so much) is stressing and sad. I feel sorry for him, I really do. Who knows if he wants my pitty. Anyway I feel sorry.
I strongly agree with him, that Star Trek should stay brighter and more positive in its outlook of the future. That is THE reason why I'm a Trekker, and I will leave Star Trek behind, immediately, if that ever changes. I will fight against it, as much as I possibly can. And I will never come to accept a BSG version of Trek.
And yeah, I liked TATV. I'm not afraid to admit it!
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As I recall, you had to watch it six times to find something to like. That's pretty sad. The first several times your taste, your instincts told you it was bad, but it was like you are the member of a one-man cult and you forced yourself to like it.
Me, if I don't like a Kate Bush song I'm not afraid to admit it.
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"Oh, I'll wake up
To any sound of engines,
Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep
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Not quite true, katefan. I liked TATV the first time around, so I wanted to watch it again. I just liked it. Man, let's stop arguing over this. :-)
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Thank you Mr. Berman.
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"Maybe in another thousand years, we'll have teleportation and all that other Star Trek stuff. But with our current technology, we can't even make William Shatner's hair look real." --- Bill Maher
Quote:"I realize the [ENTERPRISE] finale was controversial."
It was not controversial, it just sucked. It really had nothing to do ENT and left out many things that should of been addressed.
Quote:"We were attempting to do, because we did consider the previous two episodes to the climatic storylines that dealt into ENTERPRISE specifically. We made the creative decision to do a final episode that was a nod to all the STAR TREKs.
Translation: The last 2 episodes were really good and it was something that we should of done from day one but we didn't because we are two idiots. However we did the episodes with the hopes of "topping" Coto because are egos could not allow him to get away with it.
I would like to start a campaign that for the next 10 years we BAN "giving a nod" to anything. I am sick of hearing this lame excuse.
As for the last 2 episodes, that is what ENT should of been doing in the first place instead of having complete episodes of "Dogs" in sick, a crack whore Vulcan who shows emotion on the drop of a hat and a gay/aids mindmeld.
Quote:"And we wanted to look at ENTERPRISE through the eyes of future STAR TREK.
Having the prequel looking through eyes to the future? I see this moron is truly incompetent.
Quote:"And do something that we thought was very interesting in that regard.
Too bad everyone hated it and saw it for what it was "crap".
Quote:" I would be lying if I said that the episode was a rousing success.
No it wasn't. Despite the lame attempt to try and lure Trek fans who left by using TNG cast members.
Quote:"I don't think that the actors liked it.
Translation: The cast of ENT did like it because it had nothing to do with ENT but we said "fuck'em" and did it anyways.
Quote:"I think it showed in their performances that they weren't happy and that the episode suffered from that.
So the cast did bad acting in order to back at you? HOW childish!
Quote:"It was noble effort but I don't think it was quite as successful as we hoped.
If that is your definition of noble then it is no wonder why Trek is the toilet now. The episode sucked. It was written the year before and they didn't do anything to fix it or make it better. It was a throw away script. Thanks for the "care" Braga you dipshit.
Quote:" But I still stand by the concept. It was a good idea.
It had a concept? Lets see Rikar goes and WASTES time in the holosuit thinking about whether he should tell his Picard that his former Captain was working on a device which was in direct violation to a treaty with the Romulans. A device if discovered would cause a potential "war"? He has to think about it first? HAHAHAHAHAH
Quote:"But I can understand why the fans were upset. They wanted their ENTERPRISE and they might not have wanted to see other STAR TREK characters in there. Some people complained about the use of the holodeck. We thought it was cool. But then again we have always loved the holodeck. Some people think it had been overused."
Fans were upset? Are you telling me that Braga actually listened to a fan? Someone at Paramount listened to a fan? NO WAY...That would be real Sci-Fi to hear that!
Quote:"You know it was not a happy finale. We did not want to be writing this.
The founding of the Federation was not to be happy? What a fucking idiot!
Quote:"And Rick [Berman] and I were coming to a time where STAR TREK was ending a long 18 year run and we felt 'you know what, the whole franchise deserves something.' And perhaps we were misguided in thinking that, but it is what we did."
The franchise deserved to have you two FIRED.
Quote:"Asked if he will be involved in any future STAR TREK, Braga said "If it happened right now, no. I am busy with other stuff and I think I have given all that I can to STAR TREK at the moment but ah, in the future I don't know. I really don't know what I would do. If they even came to me at all. I am not sure that they would."
This is EXCELLENT to hear. This is telling us that he is OUT! SO long and enjoy our new retarded series which will last 1 season.
Quote:"Regarding the death of Captain Kirk, which he co-wrote with Ron Moore for STAR TREK GENERATIONS, he said "In retrospect you wonder if it was exactly the way, was it done right? Was it as effective as it should have been? Captain Kirk died on a bridge. Should he have died on the bridge of his starship? There is a lot of stuff that I personally, I can't speak for the other gentleman involved, I personally would love to go back in time, like a STAR TREK episode and redo some stuff."
Translation: MooreRon and I really really screwed this up. Maybe if the two us were fans of Trek we might of cared.
To this comment I say "F.U" Braga. Too busy with your new little show to help get Shatner back to do the ENT episodes? You hated the character Kirk and he killed him off the most STUPID way possible. Oh yeah as for the BRIDGE... Oh yes the bridge between two mountains of rocks is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then that of a Starship you dick!
Quote:"Asked if a STAR TREK reboot would work, he said "First of all it's difficult to reboot STAR TREK. BATTLESTAR GALACTICA the original series was relatively, relatively speaking to STAR TREK, very short lived. And did not have anywhere near the fanbase that STAR TREK has. You can't just ignore STAR TREK. But you could certainly revamp it. But I don't think you can reboot it. And in the terms of the darker tones there are many, many people that felt that ENTERPRISE, for instance, should have been more like BATTLESTAR GALACTICA and been much, much darker and grittier. And maybe that is the way to go with STAR TREK in the future. I don't know.
He is all over the place. First he says Trek has been around too long and then he say "yeah". Screw any revamp. Screw any reboot and screw BSG the revamp.
Quote:" And I personally feel that one of the things that distinguishes STAR TREK is its positive outlook, so I happen to disagree with that.""
This is the only thing he is right about. So for all you people pissing and moaning about Trek being not all dark and depressing etc I say go watch the revamp instead.
Quote:"When the news hit that ENTERPRISE was canceled, a lot of the fans seemed to direct their anger towards you. How do HE cope with that ? "Well look, who can blame them?" Braga said "You gotta blame, you gotta point your, if you are indeed angry you are going to look at the person running the show. So its not surprising. It isn't a pleasant thing to think of yourself as to blame. There are other factors involved with STAR TREK loosing its audience appeal over the years. But I would be lying if I said... I will take my share of the blame creatively. It's almost impossible for me to sit here and say "yes I did this that and this wrong."
What factors causing the decline is he talking about? It is amazing he FINALLY admits to some of the lame creative blame. But you know saying he will take the blame and actually apologizing for it are two different things. Calling fans who watched his and Berman work continuity pornographers after having to remind them of continuity was uncalled for. Having Berman say that "we don't run things around by a group of fans"...and "fans were not interested in Romulans" etc etc. Comments like this is what REALLY pissed off the fans. Comments based on personal opinion instead of "fan market research" did not help.
Quote:"And I am certainly not going to get on the internet and look at what the fans have to think because that would be a. too painful and b..."
No I think he has because he has his own website. He has people that come up to him with sites and comments etc. He has read many fan responses about him otherwise how would he know fans are pissed at him?
All I can say is that good bye Braga. Thanks for nothing you arrogant tool and I can't wait to see your new series tank. If you have an opening on your show take that a-hole Berman with you.
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Quote:
I would like to start a campaign that for the next 10 years we BAN "giving a nod" to anything.
...and yet, from time to time, Scorned can be so damn funny.
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"A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
-Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
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"The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
-Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
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Don't be shy now. How about telling us what you REALLY think? ;-)
Sorry about that. I couldn't resist. You definitely have a lot of...distaste...for Mr. Braga, don't you. I can't say I entirely disagree with the sentiment. There are, after all, plenty of big mistakes with his name on it.
Of course, at the same time, I don't know much about what it must be like to be one of the head people for something as massive as Star Trek (plus, I know I couldn't do any better), so I can't be as harsh as you come across either.
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"Oh relax, Cupcake. It was a joke."- James T. Kirk
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Quote:" Don't be shy now. How about telling us what you REALLY think? ;-)"
I am not buying any of Braga's little "pity party" crap. I did have to hold back a few times from riping into him over his remarks.
Quote:"Sorry about that. I couldn't resist. You definitely have a lot of...distaste...for Mr. Braga, don't you. I can't say I entirely disagree with the sentiment. There are, after all, plenty of big mistakes with his name on it.
Of course, at the same time, I don't know much about what it must be like to be one of the head people for something as massive as Star Trek (plus, I know I couldn't do any better), so I can't be as harsh as you come across either."
We need to stop putting up with all these people (not just B&B) in life who give us these "song and dance" excuses for their actions. I am sorry but I am sick of it. There is no personal accountablity. Everyone is at fault except for themselves. I am sorry but anything B&B have to say on Trek is just more spin and BS that fans should just ignore. I am for one hoping that Steve just stop posting anything by these two idiots.
Quote:
We made the creative decision to do a final episode that was a nod to all the STAR TREKs. And we wanted to look at ENTERPRISE through the eyes of future STAR TREK
WHY??!!??!! I think that TATV made Threshold look like Shakespeare.
Quote:
Some people complained about the use of the holodeck. We thought it was cool. But then again we have always loved the holodeck. Some people think it had been overused."
Gee... you think??? Well, maybe just a little.
Quote:
"You know it was not a happy finale. We did not want to be writing this. And Rick and I were coming to a time where STAR TREK was ending a long 18 year run and we felt 'you know what, the whole franchise deserves something.' And perhaps we were misguided in thinking that, but it is what we did."
It's a shame that you didn't think that the franchise deserved something back when it really mattered. TATV was such a lame effort, to call it noble is really just bull.
Quote:
Asked if he will be inovolved in any future STAR TREK, Braga said "If it happened right now, no. I am busy with other stuff and I think I have given all that I can to STAR TREK at the moment but ah, in the future I don't know. I really don't know what I would do. If they even came to me at all. I am not sure that they would."
Yeah, as a writer, you're all that and a bag of chips. Brannon, you would have been better off leaving at the height of your success with the franchise. Now, you'll be remembered as a minor villain as compared to the shadow cast by Rick Berman and his executive decisions. Sure, you guys were able to maintain your lifestyles, but you garnered contempt from legions of geeks who incidentally paid for your cars, pools, and vacations. You showed your appreciation by writing TATV... it was just lame.
Quote:
Regarding the death of Captain Kirk, which he co-wrote with Ron Moore for STAR TREK GENERATIONS, he said "In retrospect you wonder if it was exactly the way, was it done right? Was it as effective as it should have been? Captain Kirk died on a bridge. Should he have died on the bridge of his starship? There is a lot of stuff that I personally, I can't speak for the other gentleman involved, I personally would love to go back in time, like a STAR TREK episode and redo some stuff.
Yes, but just like the holodeck, you've ruined time travel for Star Trek. It was overused, and now it would be an ineffective plot device because it has been rendered sterile. Thanks for nothing.
Quote:
Asked if a STAR TREK reboot would work, he said "First of all it's difficult to reboot STAR TREK. BATTLESTAR GALACTICA the original series was relatively, relatively speaking to STAR TREK, very short lived. And did not have anywhere near the fanbase that STAR TREK has. You can't just ignore STAR TREK. But you could certainly revamp it. But I don't think you can reboot it. And in the terms of the darker tones there are many, many people that felt that ENTERPRISE, for instance, should have been more like BATTLESTAR GALACTICA and been much, much darker and grittier. And maybe that is the way to go with STAR TREK in the future. I don't know. And I personally feel that one of the things that distinguishes STAR TREK is its positive outlook, so I happen to disagree with that."
Yes, the positive outlook is what distinguishes Star Trek from the rest of the crowd, but you have to realize that there is one burning question... how did humanity rise from the ashes of a horrific world war to become the humans that we saw in most Star Trek productions. ENT should have been darker, that isn't to say that the characters couldn't be striving for positivity... but that kind of thing only comes about after some kind of trial by fire. Also, there's a difference between having a positive outlook and being a functional retard like the way Archer was written earier on.
Quote:
When the news hit that ENTERPRISE was canceled, a lot of the fans seemed to direct their anger towards you. How do HE cope with that ? "Well look, who can blame them?" Braga said "You gotta blame, you gotta point your, if you are indeed angry you are going to look at the person running the show. So its not surprising. It isn't a pleasant thing to think of yourself as to blame. There are other factors involved with STAR TREK loosing its audience appeal over the years. But I would be lying if I said... I will take my share of the blame creatively. It's almost impossible for me to sit here and say "yes I did this that and this wrong." And I am certainly not going to get on the internet and look at what the fans have to think because that would be a. too painful and b..."
WHOA!!! What happened to the grammar in that last paragraph?
Anyway, Brannon, I know you tried within the framework you had to work within. But it really is best to know when it's time to leave a job. I think your career would have taken an even more positive turn if you had left the franchise while people hated you less than they do now. Now you have people slamming the show Threshold and it hasn't even aired yet. People are wishing for an abject failure of the show. Personally, I think you could have done better, but I know from my own experiences with the music industry in Hollywood that contracts and bullshit are the lifeblood of the industries there. I spent too many nights hanging out at the Cat and Fiddle, watching people trying to make it in that town, and the shit was so thick that you'd need a chainsaw to cut it.
Anyway, the nightmare is over for both you and the fans. Let us all move onward and upward, as an odd fellow I once knew used to say.
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To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And, at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between, plus some things I can't remember, all rolled into one big 'thing.' This is truth, to me.
I don't blame him as much as I do Berman. But it's time both of them got out of the way and let some fresh talent take over.
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"I'd write my senator/congressman about this....but I can't find my checkbook."
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