RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:34:41 on Jul 04, 2005

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Berman killed Kirk later that year. His most insulting attack on TOS to date.

I saw Generations back in 1994 but I never really noticed that Kirk died. Not until I read it sometime last year on the net. But I remember how painful it was to watch the NCC1701-D crash. My favourite ship! But the truth is, I've gotten over it.

I respect that some fans are TOS fixated, just like I've grown up with TNG. But I don't understand why TOS characters would be more relevant for the finale episode of ENT. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was no holodeck in the TOS era, right? So it would change the premise of the final episode completely.

I consider the story in TATV a metaphor for the current situation with Star Trek. It wasn't really a Troi/Riker episode although they did steal our attention (not necessarely a lot of screen time, but our attention). I think the episode is more like a letter from B&B to the fans of ENT and I think, it makes it an intersting episode to try and decipher. Riker, Trip, Archer - is sort of speaking on behalf of B&B.

Of course, the finale episode could have turned out another way, but the most important thing is, it turned out well... (subjective opinion, I know)

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Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
By: McCoy666 (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:59:24 on Jul 04, 2005

Quote: "The writers have a responsibility to get us put into the web of the historical context of the STAR TREK franchise in general, and so they are bringing 'Riker' [Jonathan Frakes] and 'Troi' [Marina Sirtis] back."

As opposed to Kirk or Spock. C'mon, surely there were better to tie this to the rest of the Trek universe. There was no tie here to the Star Trek franchise in general, only to Rick Berman's Star Trek.


Quote: "There's a holodeck story and 'Riker' wants to visit with our crew, kind of slip in behind the scenes, in a sense, and get to know 'Trip'. I'm flattered that the last episode is kind of about me. I'm also said it is the last episode."

This episode had nothing to do with you, Dude. It was all about Riker and Troi wasting time during an important mission of grave concern to Federation security interacting in a remake of a meaningless mission undertaken by your crew. Boy, when it was Barkely screwing around on the holodeck when it was time to work, Riker would chop him down. I honestly liked your character, but this had nothing to do with getting to know trip. And I'm sad too that this was the final episode, your character had so much potential that was thrown into the toilet.

Quote: "But I thinks ultimately, the responsibility that [executive producers] Rick [Berman] and Brannon [Braga] felt they needed to accomplish was to make a connection to the rest of TREK history and to bring [18 years of STAR TREK] full circle."

Again I ask: Why does "full circle" only include Trek that Berman was involved in? This should have somehow tied to the original series. And don't give me "Because they're all too old." Frakes and Sirtis both looked terrible! In no way was it beleivable that these two were supposed to be the same age as they were during TNG.

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• RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
  By: rumandchocolate (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:56:14 on Jul 06, 2005

  Quote:
  As opposed to Kirk or Spock. C'mon, surely there were better to tie this to the rest of the Trek universe. There was no tie here to the Star Trek franchise in general, only to Rick Berman's Star Trek.
  
  It seems to me that the choice was to tie this to Star Trek on television.
  
  In that sense, then their decision to tie it to TNG... using the Enterprise-D... makes sense. Not just because TNG was the launching point of that 18-year run... but because Frakes and Sirtis reprising their characters is more believeable than Shatner and Nimoy reprising theirs during TOS.
  
  In any case, the episode certainly had a number of references to tie it to TOS: The episode featured an Andorian... a species (though seen and mentioned) not explored in any other Trek series other than TOS. The episode also returned us to "where no man has gone before." To say nothing about the Federation charter.
  
  Quote:
  This episode had nothing to do with you
  
  See... conceptually I think this was a neat idea... and used the Holodeck in the way it was intended, rather than making it yet another run-amok story. I just wish it hadn't been done in the final episode of the series.
  
  
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  Why does "full circle" only include Trek that Berman was involved in?
  
  And why does "full circle" have to mean "an appearance by one of the cast members of TOS"? Can't Trek come "full circle" without that?
  
  
  
  Don't get me wrong, the episode has some major flaws... notably in its mischaracterization of Trip: "Bring us Shran." "Gee... guess I got no choice but to kill myself!" But I disagree that the episode was just some way for Berman and Braga to diss TOS and just tout their own version of Trek... even Manny Coto liked the concept of this episode.

  
  

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  • RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
    By: RANDOLPHEA (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:16:10 on Jul 07, 2005

    TATV was the poorest, most pathetic series finale I have ever seen.
    
    TOS series didn't have a finale, and their last episode was better than this one.
    
    This story was in INSULT to the fans, and a slap in the face to the cast. TNG was my favorite series, I grew up with it. However, I developed my own relationship with the Enterprise cast, and it was THEM I wanted to see in the last episode, not looking back in time at them through the eyes of Riker and Troi.
    The writing was weak, the action non-existent. Very dispicable as an ending.
    The episode prior to TATV would have been an improvement. It seemed like TATV was just thrown together. Pathetic.

    
    

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    • RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
      By: rumandchocolate (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:40:32 on Jul 07, 2005

      Different strokes...
      
      I know I'll be shot for saying this... but I happen to think TATV is the second-best Trek finale. *However* (as you said) TOS had no finale, so to speak, and VOY and DS9 set the bar really low, IMHO. I mean, VOY's finale was typical VOY. And DS9's finale was god-awful, as I recall... a tremendous letdown to a fantastic series. And other (better) shows had awful finales... Buffy comes to mind. Sex and the City.
      
      I agree in wishing the ENT finale had been more about the ENT crew. However, that they chose to make it a Star Trek finale, rather than an ENT finale isn't necessarily an insult to the fans or the cast. They were obviously trying to tie ENT to what comes after it (timeline-wise).
      
      Did I think TATV was great? Absolutely not. As you said, the writing was poor and obvious, and the action not all that exciting. Do I think it's the worst piece of trash on television? No, as well.

      
      

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  • RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
    By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:18:42 on Jul 06, 2005

    Quote:
    In that sense, then their decision to tie it to TNG... using the Enterprise-D... makes sense. Not just because TNG was the launching point of that 18-year run... but because Frakes and Sirtis reprising their characters is more believeable than Shatner and Nimoy reprising theirs during TOS.
    
    And who says they have to be portraying Kirk and/or Spock during TOS? It could have easily been years later; Nimoy could have played Spock in any of a number of eras.
    
    And It did not have to be Kirk, Spock or any of the TOS actors. It could have been T'Pol seeing the launch of the first Enterprise. The real one.
    
    Quote:
    See... conceptually I think this was a neat idea... and used the Holodeck in the way it was intended, rather than making it yet another run-amok story. I just wish it hadn't been done in the final episode of the series.
    
    The problem is we have seen so many holodeck stories over the years. It is a tired old plot device ranking right up there with time travel, with transporter accidents coming in third. When B & B are out of ideas they go back to their old crutches.
    
    Quote:
    And why does "full circle" have to mean "an appearance by one of the cast members of TOS"? Can't Trek come "full circle" without that?
    
    See my suggestion above. Well, it wasn't mine, originally. Someone else at this board had suggested it long before me.
    
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    ...even Manny Coto liked the concept of this episode.
    
    And how much of that is sucking up to B & B in case he needs work on Threshold?
    
    --------
    
    "Oh, I'll wake up
    To any sound of engines,
    Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
    
    Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep

    
    

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    • RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
      By: rumandchocolate (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:58:42 on Jul 06, 2005

      Quote:
      And who says they have to be portraying Kirk and/or Spock during TOS?
      
      Re-read what I said. It appears to me that the Bs' intent was to tie Enterprise to the Star Trek television series that came before it. So in that sense, using Kirk and Spock from a later time period wouldn't have worked... just like they chose to depict Riker and Troi during TNG, rather than after the events in Nemesis.
      
      
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      The problem is we have seen so many holodeck stories over the years.
      
      What I think was misused too often was the old Holodeck-run-amok episode: a computer glitch threatens the lives of crewmembers in the Holodeck. I don't think the Holodeck itself was misused, any more than the Transporter Room was misused in TOS. It's not the location itself that was the problem... it was its use as a device to create jeopardy.
      
      
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      See my suggestion above.
      
      I'm not disputing that there may be other ways, in fact I said the opposite. But the poster I responded to (and who I quoted)seemed to feel that the show should have depicted Kirk and Spock in order to tie it to TOS. My point is similar to yours: that there are other ways to tie it to TOS... and I happen to think the episode did that.
      
      
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      And how much of that is sucking up to B & B in case he needs work on Threshold?
      
      So when Coto talks about how much of a fanboy he is, he's being honest... not sucking up to the fans. But when he says something positive about something the Bs' did, then we have to question his motives.
      
      At some point, we have to trust what people say.
      
      In any case, I heard he has a two-year deal with 24... I don't think he needs Fleshold. ;-)

      
      

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• RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
  By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:29:03 on Jul 05, 2005

  Quote:
  There was no tie here to the Star Trek franchise in general, only to Rick Berman's Star Trek.
  
  I take it the voice-over by William Shatner and the appearance of the NCC-1701 didn't count for some reason...
  
  --------
  
  "You know what six movies average out to be really good? The first six Star Trek movies!" -- Fry, Futurama

  
  

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  • RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
    By: McCoy666 (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:16:58 on Jul 05, 2005

    Nope. And I'm sure several teeth were pulled from Berman's mouth in order to have that included. I'm betting that it was added at the last instant, and was not in the original script.

    
    

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• RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
  By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:42:40 on Jul 04, 2005

  This hostility towards B&B is affecting your judgment.
  
  Quote:
  There was no tie here to the Star Trek franchise in general, only to Rick Berman's Star Trek.
  
  Interesting accusation. I've never heard that one before. ENT ends the modern era of Star Trek. The modern era began with TNG, and TNG was Roddenberry's show. I know, when he died. But TNG stayed Roddenberry's show, unless you consider it more a result of cooperation. Which wouldn't be an unfair thing to do. Anyway, Star Trek's popularity and ratings peaked during TNG's seventh season.
  
  So "These are the Voyages" features a logical and appropiate tie-in with the rest of Star Trek.
  
  You can't have it all - VOY, DS9, TOS - into one episode. That would dominate the episode and probably seem very confusing. This still needed to be an ENT episode, to allow each character to make a graceful exit.
  
  Quote:
  Frakes and Sirtis both looked terrible! In no way was it beleivable that these two were supposed to be the same age as they were during TNG.
  
  I completely disagree.

  
  

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  • RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
    By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:25:47 on Jul 04, 2005

    Quote:
    ENT ends the modern era of Star Trek. The modern era began with TNG, and TNG was Roddenberry's show. I know, when he died. But TNG stayed Roddenberry's show, unless you consider it more a result of cooperation.
    
    But they continued to make TOS era movies well into TNG's run, even tying in both series with Spock's guest appearance on TNG and having Michael Dorn play Worf's grandfather.
    
    So you cannot say there is a clear cut "era", now can you?
    
    Quote:
    Which wouldn't be an unfair thing to do. Anyway, Star Trek's popularity and ratings peaked during TNG's seventh season.
    
    But creatively it began to seriously suffer by this point, and who was one of the writers churning out crappy scripts? Brannon Braga. So Berman was producing, Braga was writing, and as a result we see the series suffer as a result.
    
    Quote:
    So "These are the Voyages" features a logical and appropiate tie-in with the rest of Star Trek.
    
    The show is a prequel to the TOS era, so the logical tie-in should have been with TOS. And at this message board several valid suggestions were proposed. My favorite was T'Pol meeting a cadet Kirk, or witnessing the launching of the 1701 Enterprise with Robert April at the helm.
    
    Quote:
    You can't have it all - VOY, DS9, TOS - into one episode. That would dominate the episode and probably seem very confusing. This still needed to be an ENT episode, to allow each character to make a graceful exit.
    
    Which they failed to do:
    
    Hoshi and Mayweather: Still ensigns. Even Geordi, Worf and Troi got promotions during TNG's run on television.
    
    Trip: Ignoble death, really pointless and done for shock value.
    
    Archer: "And here's my speech..."
    
    Riker: "Computer, end program."
    
    Yeah, that was really graceful.
    
    Reed: His best friend dies and two days later all he can talk about is how crappy his seat is at the ceremony.
    
    And Frakes and Sirtis did not really look all that good. They certainly did not look close to being eleven years younger.
    
    --------
    
    "Oh, I'll wake up
    To any sound of engines,
    Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
    
    Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep

    
    

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  • RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
    By: Sennik (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:56:56 on Jul 04, 2005

    The simple explanation for why "These Are The Voyages" ties up the last 18 years of Star Trek, and connects it to TNG, is because to Rick Berman, the last 18 years of Star Trek is the ONLY Star Trek he's concerned with.
    
    And I'm sorry, but all those people out there who are defending TATV by saying it ties up the "modern" era of Star Trek are quite simply defending a sinking ship. Enterprise was a series whose ENTIRE PREMISE was that it took place before The Original Series. Before Captain Kirk and crew were sailing through space. In an act of pure Berman ego, their ship was even inserted in the timeline as the NEW first starship Enterprise. NCC-1701? What's that? No, the real first Enterprise was NX-01. Bullsh*t. But, anyway. My point being, Enterprise was billed from DAY ONE as being a prequel to TOS, and promised to show audiences how humanity got to the stars, and eventually became the people we saw in Kirk's era, and later in Picard's.
    
    A fitting end for Enterprise would've been to tie it to Star Trek: The Original Series. All this rubbish about it wrapping up the "modern" era of Star Trek is just so much bull. No one really gave three sh*ts about "The Pegasus" episode anyway, and THIS is the big episode they tied Enterprise's finale to? It's like they put all the episode titles in a hat, picked one, and said, "Ok, lets shoehorn an Enterprise plot into it."
    
    Most of the fans had left Enterprise by this point anyway, so acknowledging its place in Star Trek history was just so much stupidity. Had they just had a final scene, with an old T'Pol watching the launch of the new NCC-1701, that would've tied Enterprise to the rest of the Star Trek continuity. But, since Berman doesn't care about fitting ends, and stories that make sense, we got the train wreck called "These Are The Voyages."
    
    It was the worst episode of Enterprise, bar none, and the worst finale of any of the Star Trek series. The day we get an official announcement that Rick Berman is no longer involved in the running of the Star Trek franchise should be declared a national holiday.

    
    

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  • RE: Is he joking? | Report this post to moderator
    By: McCoy666 (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:31:39 on Jul 04, 2005

    Quote:
    This hostility towards B&B is affecting your judgement.
    
    My hostility toward those boneheads is justified. Look, I'm the first guy to try to be empathetic and realize that there are different sides to every situation. I realize that Berman's job ain't easy, and that he is in a tug-a-war between what the fans want and what the suits want. But, DAMMIT, a true professional knows when his time is up and that he has done all he can. I don't know the guy personally, but the more I hear from the guy, the more I think that he is truly an arrogant prick. His creativity ran out years ago, but he refuses to listen to us or even look at his own product and understand that.
    
    Quote:
    Ent ends the modern era of Star Trek. The modern era began with TNG, and TNG was Roddenberry's show.
    
    So Trek is being divied up into eras now? Okay, but if you are going to do that, you really have to say that the modern era began when Roddenberry died, which is still when Berman took over. And that is still the only era that he cares about.
    
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    Star Trek's popularity and ratings peaked during TNG's seventh season.
    
    And then proceeded to crash when Berman killed Kirk later that year. His most insulting attack on TOS to date.
    
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    You can't have it all - VOY, DS9, TOS - into one episode. That would dominate the episode and probably seem very confusing. This still needed to be an ENT episode, to allow each character to make a graceful exit.
    
    I didn't ask for DS9 and especially not for Voyager to be part of this episode. I asked for it to truly come full circle and relate to TOS. Coto did an awesome job of that for the rest of the season, but Berman reverted the show back to the form the first 3 seasons took and made it have nothing to do with TOS. And this still wasn't an Ent episode that allowed for graceful exits. It was a Riker/Troi episode.
    
    Quote:
    I completely disagree. (That Frakes and Sirtis looked terrible.)
    
    Okay, but watch this episode and the original episode back to back and tell me that these two looked even remotely the same. Honestly, Shatner, Koenig, and Takai do not look any more different than they did in 1991. They could be brought back any time and still be able to fit their roles. What is with the outright refusal by Berman to go that route?

    
    

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