Manny Coto isn't THAT great, folks. Just because he ISN'T Rick Berman and Brannon Braga doesn't mean he's a Godsend or savior to Star Trek. He's dished out just as much garbage as these two morons and this episode is another prime example of how Enterprise, in general, is pure garbage and an continued insult to Star Trek fans.
While I will agree that Star Trek has had its moments of overt sexism, "Bound" is not one of them.
"Bound" is too lightweight an episode to bear up under this sort of scrutiny. It wasn't meant to be a sexual polemic. It was what it was, an homage to TOS, regardless of what O. Deus might think.
If fact, I would argue that if there is a deeper theme to "Bound" is that one should not look a gift horse in the mouth, as the horse may be plotting against you.
Seriously though, so the Orion women used sex (actually, their pheremones, to be exact) to get what they want. So what? They are a fictional creation, nothing more. To attach some larger social significance is sadly ludicrous and ridiculously pedantic.
In other words, get over it, you silly PC twits.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, cigar in one hand, favorite beverage in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming WOO HOO - What a Ride!"
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Consider T'Pol and 7 of 9's 'modified' uniforms, which makes no real sense whatsoever.
Why does everyone choose to ignore the fact that Troi had a tight, cleavage-revealing, "modified" uniform as well? And for that matter, every woman on TOS was given a "modified" uniform with a micro-miniskirt? The only women on Trek who haven't been subjected to this are Number One, Yeoman Colt, Yar, Kira, both Daxes, Janeway, Kes, and Hoshi Sato. Even Kira was given a "sexier" uniform as the series went on (although it was far less obvious than the others). (And, of course, Jadzia wore the micro-miniskirt once, but I hesitate to count that.)
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Consider some of the gratiously exploitative scenes featuring both characters. Consider how likely T'Pol and Seven are to lose their minds or otherwise become unstable, 'just like women do.'
Come to think of it, wasn't Troi exactly the same way?
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When T'Pol takes command of Enterprise it's usually captured or beaten to pieces.
Of course, when Archer has command of Enterprise, he's usually captured or beaten to pieces. ;-)
I'm not excusing sexism in Trek, but it's a bit dubious to hold Enterprise to a higher standard than the older shows and then act as if it has sunken to a new low.
Even though this is frequently compared with "Mudd's Women", I think it has almost as much in common with "The Perfect Mate". I really don't consider either of these episodes sleazy. And, be honest: If the "slave girls" had been dressed differently, would you have complained half as vehemently? Well, keep in mind that Roddenberry oversaw their creation as far back as "The Cage", which is where their dress was borrowed from. And what was Roddenberry's only complaint about them? He wished he could show more skin: specifically, the navel. He later created a character (not in Trek) with two navels to make up for it.
How much of the sexism described in your article actually came from this episode? While you did cite a few examples, it seems that about half of the complaints you had dealt with other episodes or even other series, and that you were using this episode as a focal point for more general complaints abuot modern Trek. I know you were establishing a pattern, but it feels like you weren't judging the episode completely on its own merits.
Is the episode still sexist and juvenille on its own merits? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I have trouble complaining too much about sexism when none of the women I've heard from think the episode was sexist. As a matter of fact, all of the women I know enjoyed the episode quite a bit. Maybe it has to do with the fact that they took the most sexist Trek characters of all time and turned them on their heads, actually making previous appearances of the characters less sexist in retrospect, a point which you neglected to mention in your review. (Doesn't it make sense that women who have complete power over men would be the masters rather than the slaves?) More likely, they just thought it was a fun episode. In any case, I would hesitate to consider myself more of an expert on misogyny than most of the women that I know, so if they aren't offended, than neither am I.
On an unrelated point, kudos to Manny Coto for giving Archer-T'Pol-Trip a real-life Kirk-Spock-McCoy moment toward the end of the episode when T'Pol cracks a Spock-like joke. Bravo: I've been waiting years for a moment like this between the "big three" of Enterprise.
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"You know what six movies average out to be really good? The first six Star Trek movies!" -- Fry, Futurama
Ha! That sure ain't a bad episode! I just finished seeing it. Crazy man. A little daring. But very, very ...ummmm... realistic in how the men were responding.
Those were some dream babes! Even without the extra pheromones in the air, it certainly would be hard for me to refuse Archers woman.
Well done Manny Coto! I see nothing "offending" about this episode, though as I said it was a little daring. It peaks into a mans forbidden dream, deeply hidden in his unconscious mind.
A really fun episode, and a fresh thing to do for Star Trek... Just once or twice... per season.. would be great.
I have the episode recorded and I'm going to watch it once again now... byebye... :-)
One of the WORST episodes of TREK EVER!
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"That is the exploration that awaits you: Not mapping the stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possiblities of existence." - Q, All Good Things...
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Though I can see why SOME people might find this episode a little over the top, I think it was simply fun.
I don't mind stuff like this, as long as our main characters keep their dignity, which I think they did under the circumstances. And, as long as there are no sex/nude scenes, which would be inappropiate indeed.
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I'd have to second that. I was really tempted to just turn it off. I'm rather incredulous that this ep was written in 2005.
And I'm by no means opposed to sex, sexuality, women using their sexuality, etc. I think this was just an awful and prurient take on powerful, sexual women.
So maybe it's supposed to be "innocent fun" but it's reinforcing a whole host of stereotypes I'd rather see left in the past.
If you want to see a more complex, intelligent and adult view on sexuality, women and power, do what I've done and start watching Battlestar Galactica. And before I get attacked for comparing the two shows or get told if I hate ENT so much I should just go watch BSG, I'd side with Deus and say that Trek's irrelevance for today is precisely what has doomed it as far as I'm concerned. I probably wouldn't even be watching the end of the season if it weren't the last. And I was/am a longterm die-hard Trek fan, having seen every episode ever, been to conventions, the whole lot.
I hope when Trek returns it finds a more compelling way of doing it. I loved last year's Xindi arc, but fluff like Bound reminds me why it's time for a rest...
When you indicate there are polls that may not list Twilight as one of the greatest ENT episodes? I do know that Twilight topped the TrekWeb poll for third season episodes (highest average poll score, greatest percentage of "10" votes).
Bound was a great episode! What, are you afraid of sexuality, Dues? Grow up.
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The Slightly Warped Website
Folks, sex has been a part of Star Trek since the beginning. Gene Roddenberry loved women and he loved showing them off. The next time you cringe at Sevens catsuit or T'Pol's huge boobs remember that Uhura and Rand wore some very short mini-skirts. The original pilot to TOS had an Orion slave girl doing an errotic dance for crying out loud! Sex sells. Its been that way since the 1960s and its even moreso that way today. Personally, I don't think its needed and I could care less about a catsuit. However, sex has been a part of Star Trek since day one. Either accept that or move on to something else.
Good God man, could you have been more melodramatic about this episode? Did you forget what show you were watching?
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Yes, there was a vibe of "evil females using their wiles to get their way" going through it, but since it was the effect of the women and not their feminity they could argue they weren't being sexist. Still, they were used in a kind of juvenile way. The men ended up acting kind of silly, like schoolboys who couldn't resist. T'Pol should have been much more forceful, but her character has been portrayed as kind of schizo since her "drug" use. Anyway the ending where the Orions confront Archer on the bridge is classic Trek, as is the laughing, bonding, finale in sickbay. Did Archer actually smile? Even though this is 2005 however, we still can't have a true Number One (Majel) on. T'Pol is not Archer's equal in the same way Spock was. If T'Pol actually fell in love with Archer, think of the mature relationship they could have developed throughout the series. But this isn't the sixties. Sulu and Uhura had much larger parts than did Mayweather and Sato. But that's another topic. As to Turnabout, in 1969 no woman would have been able to be an astronaut, much less a commander, so Roddenberry (Freiberger) was dealing with a real issue. In a sense, Kirk functioned aa a female Captain, kind of disproving the sexism in an oblique way. Also, as a finale this show pitted Kirk's indomitable will against it's greatest challenge, the very loss of his physical person, his position, his awareness of himself. Trapped in another body, told by his doctor he is insane, he must hold together enough to regain command. This was Kirk's greatest challenge in the series and a fitting ending. I thought it was corny years ago too, but I changed my mind. I enjoyed Bound and I'm looking forward to In a Mirror Darkly with a dedicated VHS tape.
This episode was utter pap, pap and more pap.
This was the pappiest pap since pappy the papper ever papped.
Quote from O. Deus:
Consider how likely T'Pol and Seven are to lose their minds or otherwise become unstable, 'just like women do.'
Methinks you under-appreciate the value of the message in TOS Mudd's Women, O.Deus, but you otherwise nail ENT Bound. Act One wasn't even three minutes old when Coto showed us that T'Pol is too mentally unstable to focus on her job, and that she doesn't respect Starfleet regulations re not pursuing fraternization during duty hours. This is in addition to the absurdity of a First Officer cameltoeing around in velour catsuits. This would be needlessly misogynous writing of any lead female STAR TREK character, and it's inexcusable ignorance of the "Vulcan" archetype as a storytelling tool.
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"...gratiously..."
I'm sure that should read "gratuitously."
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Farewell Comments from the ENT Cast
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True. And T'Pol is standing right there when Archer almost lets the Orions out of their cell and she doesn't even 1) suggest they remove all guards from the room or 2) replace them with female guards.
T'Pol is an idiot.
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This is in addition to the absurdity of a First Officer cameltoeing around in velour catsuits.
LOL!
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"Oh, I'll wake up
To any sound of engines,
Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep
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Quote from katefan:
T'Pol is an idiot.
T'Pol is a freak.
None of ENT's creative team, including Manny Coto, understand the Vulcan archetype as it was defined and demonstrated by Roddenberry and TOS writers. Vulcan emotions are an all or nothing package. T'Pol can't be suck-face affectionate in one scenario without being defiantly murderous in another. ENT writers have been selective in making T'Pol weak and floozy for the past two seasons.
S4 gave us an Archer who's a better Vulcan than T'Pau, and is a mind-meld mentor for T'Pol -- and now Tucker is as good a Vulcan as T'Pol, by way of absorption through tongue and/or penis.
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Farewell Comments from the ENT Cast
Roddenberry wrote "Turnabout Intruder."
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Quote:
Roddenberry wrote "Turnabout Intruder."
Roddenberry, like Coto, wasn't perfect.
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"Oh, I'll wake up
To any sound of engines,
Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep
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When T'Pol takes command of Enterprise it's usually captured or beaten to pieces. Indeed Earth is even destroyed and the human race wiped out, because T'Pol rather than Archer was in command.
If this is one of the problems (and I agree that T'Pol is), how could "Twilight" be considered "arguably" the greatest episode?
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"Any man who is under thirty, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over thirty, and is not a conservative, has no brains."
-Winston Churchill
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"The culture you've come to know isn't the one I helped to create." - Surak to Archer "Awakening"
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Quote:
If this is one of the problems (and I agree that T'Pol is), how could "Twilight" be considered "arguably" the greatest episode?
Since Twilight was a reboot episode and hence never actually happened, I don't think it should count in either case. ;)
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"Oh, I'll wake up
To any sound of engines,
Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep
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I agree. There are very few 'reboot' episodes that I like. They tend to only be written since the writers aren't ballsy enough to make any serious changes to the characters or series.
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"Any man who is under thirty, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over thirty, and is not a conservative, has no brains."
-Winston Churchill
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"The culture you've come to know isn't the one I helped to create." - Surak to Archer "Awakening"
While "Bound" was far from being a great Star Trek or even Enterprise episode, the whole 'political correctness' discussion just points out why so much of TNG has failed to age very well while TOS continues to be entertaining and sometimes even compelling television nearly 40 years after its first broadcast. By expecting every alien race and every story to reflect the current society some viewers want to choke the very essence of Trek from the series. Yes, Roddenberry and the other writers working on TOS wanted to explore issues that were relevant at the time but not at the expense of toeing some political correctness line drawn in the dirt. "Bound" is what it is, 42 minutes of television that had some skin in it with a little twist on a society we've seen in the background since "The Cage". Nothing more and nothing less. All of the talk of this episode setting feminism back or some other kind of attempt to make more out of it than it was is pretty silly. Every Trek series had had its own "Turnabout Intruder" or "Spock's Brain" to contend with and Enterprise has been no different. To treat the episode anything more than a toss-off before we get to the Mirror Universe episode is giving it too much credit and a waste of time.
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KJB || IGN Trek Report
The contents of this post are the opinions of the author and are not intended to reflect the corporate opinions of IGN.com or IGN Entertainment. The contents may not be reprinted or posted in any other forum, web site or transmitted by any other means without prior written consent of the author. All Rights Reserved.
I enjoyed the episode, I thought it was very enjoyable, but I was thinking I would have liked it better if Dr. Phlox had mentioned when he was running down the ship-wide symptoms of the pheromones that some men also experienced just the headaches as the women did on the episode and some women being distracted by the pheromones like all the men.
That, in my honest opinion, is what Star Trek lacks. It lacks its political edge. Come on, let’s acknowledge the fact there are men who don't care about female pheromones, and some women who love it!
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"Yes, madam, I am drunk. But in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
-- Winston Churchill
(Picture Main Street Salt Lake City UT, Circa 1900)
I'm not a huge fan of that plotline at all, but I really liked the interplay between the two in the last few minutes of the episode.
Recognize.
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An elephant never forgets . . .TO KILL!
Of course it was an homage.
It was Mudd's Women and I, Mudd, and That Which Survives and yes, The Cage all over again. It was all of those things right down to the laugh-at-the-Vulcan tag scene.
Only the irony-deficient could fail to miss it. And I rather enjoyed it.
Deus' review is a perfect indicator of how TV has changed in the last 30-40 years, and how Trek fans have a blind spot when it comes to appreciating the virtues of the original series.
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Quote:
Of course it was an homage.
It was Mudd's Women and I, Mudd, and That Which Survives and yes, The Cage all over again. It was all of those things right down to the laugh-at-the-Vulcan tag scene.
Only the irony-deficient could fail to miss it. And I rather enjoyed it.
Deus' review is a perfect indicator of how TV has changed in the last 30-40 years, and how Trek fans have a blind spot when it comes to appreciating the virtues of the original series.
Exactly. Star Trek hasn't really changed all that much in 39 years...it's just the fans, some of them (or maybe alot of them), that have changed.
Honestly. I'm a card carrying feminist and Bound didn't bother me one little bit. Are young people today incapable of appreciating a whimsical farcical episode of anything? Bound was kitsch. It was meant to be kitsch--a tribute to TOS campiness--not a statement on gender relations. Trek fans need to pull that lump of coal out of their collective butt or we're going to end up with the world's biggest diamond; there isn't room for the world's biggest diamond in most people's apartments and it's going to hurt like hell coming out. I am shaking my head at how some Trek fans just don't get it.
It was just supposed to be a fun little episode, Deus, not a profound statement. There's nothing wrong with that. No, I wouldn't want a steady diet of it in Trek. Of course not, but why must Trek by necessity be so pompous and stale and POLITICALLY CORRECT!!! ARRRRGGHHHH!!! I didn't take Bound seriously, ergo I was able to enjoy it. It did what ANIS tried to do and failed, made a funny episode and stumbling humans and their sexual foibles while revealing a little secret about Orion society. Big deal.
It's obvious that you want a return to the boring, tedious, noble, sterile, politically correct oh so perfect days of TNG when the galaxy has been tamed--the federation is all powerful--and the humans are absolutely perfect.
How very dull. You sound like that lunatic Michelle Erica Green, Deus. I'm sorry, but I'm disappointed in you. We are allowed to laugh at sexuality. It doesn't make us bad people. I still believe in equality between the sexes. Lighten up, guy. Or are you going to be outraged by the bare midriffs on the women in the MU next week like MEG has promised to be? She says she's thankful that it's pre-empted in her area because she was so offended by the sight of MU T'Pol and Hoshi. This tree hugging liberal democrat wants to throttle her to get her to lighten the hell up. Is everybody born after the year 1975 incapable of cracking a smile?
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1981 right here! Loved this campy little episode.
Thank you for making this point so eloquently. Took the words right out of many of our mouths!
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"A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
-Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
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"The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
-Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
This episode really sounds like the piece of crap I expected it to be. Maybe when I see it I'll find the nugget of gold, but I'm somewhat glad I missed it.
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Well, rarely have I seen women being more attractive than in this episode. I can only think of 2 other Star Trek episodes with women in that class. This episode is number 3. Its not cheap or anything. At least not in my opinion. There aren't any nasty scenes and the crew is just trying to keep a distance to the girls and risk no trouble, you know. Its all filmed in a slightly comic way... Well, that's how I see it.
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I really wasn't expecting much of this episode, but was pleasently surprised. I really suggest you give it a try. Don't let the opinions of 40's minded people influence you.
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Lincoln Six-Echo: Who is 'God'?
McCord: You know when you really want something, you close your eyes and wish for it really hard? God is the guy that ignores you!
- The Island
Mudds women were at least complete characters, not porn stars. Trek has never been more regressively sexist that in 2005. The fact that Cotto should know better makes it all the worse.
I truly hope that the next Trek will address head on Trek's sexist past, and cut it loose, as Deus suggests. Bound only proves that the writers have cared more about ratings than challenging issues and good writing all along. Shame. Shame.
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"You see stars that clear have been dead for years/
But the idea just lives on..."
-Connor O'Berst
"I don't mind the streets, but it's wet tonight."--Maya Keyes, after being throw out by her father Alan Keyes for coming out
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Quote:
I truly hope that the next Trek will address head on Trek's sexist past, and cut it loose, as Deus suggests. Bound only proves that the writers have cared more about ratings than challenging issues and good writing all along.
So, no sex in Star Trek? And soon no starships, no phasers, no talking, and no fun.
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"A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
-Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
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"The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
-Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
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Porn stars? Have you ever watched porn? If this was porn to you, my, my, it doesn't take much to excite you. The costumes were revealing, but it was nowhere near being porn.
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Lincoln Six-Echo: Who is 'God'?
McCord: You know when you really want something, you close your eyes and wish for it really hard? God is the guy that ignores you!
- The Island
I think people saying this episode is sexist and blah blah blah missed the whole point. Who's actually in charge? The women, so how can it be sexist in the first place?
Because of the clothes? Ok, granted, it kinda revealing, but so what? We're not in the 1800's where seeing an ankle was considered sexualy provocative! If the Orion women control the men, then they choose to dress as they do to keep a better control of them. They know most species are partiarchal, so they prefer dealing with men, therefore they keep a low profile. Sure women here probably wouldn't do that, but how come dressing sexy when you want it because you're the brain behind everything can be considered sexist?!
If it was sexist, the Orion Slave Girls would have been just that: Slave Girls. They would have been dressed sexy, moved in a provocative way and been told what to do by the Orion males because they were too stupid to think by themselves. That is sexist. That they were in control is not. It shows that women, even if you think lowly of them (c'mon, who thought highly of an Orion Slave Girl?), can be as much strong leaders as many men think they are.
Having T'Pol and 7 of 9 in catsuit I wouldn't call sexist as they are strong women too (espicially 7 since T'Pol has many misteps along the line, but the whole thing is still wrong, anyway, who likes a woman in catsuit?), but in this episode, the skimpy bikini was what was needed to pass the message. Having the Orion Slave Girls dressed in a winter suit and already leading the men wouldn't have made for the twist and therefore enhancing the message.
***Just to address your comment about T'Pol having Earth's destruction on her hands, had it been Trip, Reed, hell, even Mayweather, Earth would have been destroyed, the whole thing wasn't about T'Pol being in command but the abscence of Archer.***
Actually, what would make for a nice episode in the future (post-Voyager... actually, post-TOS), would be to have the Orion Slave Girls taking the front seat and have Orion Slave Men instead, but at the same time , it would destroy the Orions we know. Anyway, that was just a little thought.
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Lincoln Six-Echo: Who is 'God'?
McCord: You know when you really want something, you close your eyes and wish for it really hard? God is the guy that ignores you!
- The Island
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Yoda old boy,
Your sig picture makes me chuckle. It looks like some kind of whacked-out Star Wars wedding or something, with the crossed sabers. And I never realized the Emporer (or whoever that is with vader) was such a fat bastard.
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"A Keyboard?! How Quaint..."
--Scotty
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Well, they are joining destiny aren't they? :P
Really, I'd never seen it like that! And BTW, it is the Emperor.
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Lincoln Six-Echo: Who is 'God'?
McCord: You know when you really want something, you close your eyes and wish for it really hard? God is the guy that ignores you!
- The Island
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Do you have a sister? What if I told her that she would be a queen, but only if she used her body to seduce men to follow her. Is that a good message to be sending women? I dont think so.
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"You see stars that clear have been dead for years/
But the idea just lives on..."
-Connor O'Berst
"I don't mind the streets, but it's wet tonight."--Maya Keyes, after being throw out by her father Alan Keyes for coming out
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THEY ARE ALIENS! THIS WAS A STORY ABOUT AN ALIEN CULTURE, NOT EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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"A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
-Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
----
"The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
-Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
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Do you have a sister? Does she, or any women you know, use her pheromones to control you and the people around her? I did not think so.
Their ways are not ours, I think you should understand that, and anyone who listens to it should. The point is that the women were in a strong position. Would you have prefered them to be simple Orion Slave Girls just like in previous Orion episodes? I did not think so.
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Lincoln Six-Echo: Who is 'God'?
McCord: You know when you really want something, you close your eyes and wish for it really hard? God is the guy that ignores you!
- The Island
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So all cultures should be the same and all species' sexes should behave in the exact same way?
You know, reading all the hoopla this episode has stirred up about sexism and crap...it kinda seems like Trek hasn't lost its touch. After all, isn't it a liberal notion that there are no savage or babaric people, just different cultures? So why is it so hard for some people here to grasp that the women of an alien culture just might prefer a different way of equalizing themselves?
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Scientists discover the world that exists;
engineers create the world that never was.
-Theodore von Kármán
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Quote:
So all cultures should be the same and all species' sexes should behave in the exact same way?
You know, reading all the hoopla this episode has stirred up about sexism and crap...it kinda seems like Trek hasn't lost its touch. After all, isn't it a liberal notion that there are no savage or babaric people, just different cultures? So why is it so hard for some people here to grasp that the women of an alien culture just might prefer a different way of equalizing themselves?
Bravo. Well said. The key word in this is "alien."
To anybody reading this, let's get one thing straight: The universe is not full of humans. (Unless it turns out we are alone.) The universe is full of other beings who are different from the rest of us. And that's part of what this episode tried to convey.
Wasn't part of the Starfleet charter "to seek out new life, and new civilizations"? If everybody "out there" acts, looks, and talks like we do, wouldn't it still be logical to assume their belief systems are different? Star Trek is not about space battles, lots of hand-to-hand combat, crisis resolutions pulled out of someone's ass, and lame plots...it's always been about embracing that which is different. No more, no less. Even though Roddenberry created the IDIC pendant as a marketing tool, the underlying concept -- infinite diversity in infinite combinations -- is one to be remembered when you're in a pressurized tin can warping around space looking for new "people" to meet...regardless of Kirk's statement in ST:TUC, "You know what, Spock? Everybody's human."
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A generation which ignores history has no past and no future. -- Robert Heinlein
PCLinuxOS
falcon
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Quote:
So all cultures should be the same and all species' sexes should behave in the exact same way?
Apparently this is the new form of science fiction. All alien races should reflect the liberal/humanist view of utopia. That way, when the Next Series' Captain Kirk beams down to a planet, they can engage in long philosophical discussions about how we're all the same, instead of pointing out how we could be better.
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"A foolish consistancy is the hobgoblin of tiny minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Emerson!" Isaac Asimov
I enjoyed the episode. The skimpy Orion animal women weren't that big of a deal. People are trying to make this episode seem bland and terrible due to the factor that it's simply a filler episode. But I don't view it as such.
The Orions were characters that were always heard but never seen. We knew little of their organization and their species.
Now, after watching this episode, I want to learn more about the Orions. I want to see more of their culture and learn more about the organization skills of the syndicate.
I hear moans and groans about the Animal Women being in charge of the syndicate. But in all realtiy, it makes more sense. A woman with that powerful of pheremone abilities truly would be in control if she knew how to use that abilitiy.
One would not think that these girls would be content with just being property, no, I could see these women using their "womanly wilds" to get what they want. So they have in their culture.
I enjoyed the episode and give it a 4 out of 5....the ending was what pushed it up from a 3 to a 4. That sickbay seen screamed TOS and so I again state 4 out of 5 one of the better ENT episodes to date...
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"My old friend, this song's for you. Cause a few simple verses was the least that I could do to tell the world that you were here. Cause the love and the laughter, will live on long after all of the sadness and the tears. We'll meet again, my old friend"
Tim McGraw "My Old Friend"
Dedicated To My Home..New Orleans
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It was no "Twilight," indeed, but if you ask me, I enjoyed "Bound" more than the "ooh, watch everything blow up and everyone dies and then let's reset everything" episode that had no consequences for the series and the franchise whatsoever. "Bound" took what we thought we knew about the Orions and flipped it upside down in a way that was pleasantly surprising *and* with long-lasting and far-reaching impact--anyone who respects Trek continuity and includes Enterprise continuity will have to acknowledge the idea introduced in this show, and it paints in a new light all the Trek episodes we've seen that have dealt with the Orion Syndicate and challenged our earlier perception about the sexist concept of Orion slave women. "Twilight" begins and ends in that one episode. "Bound," while not the best Enterprise had to offer, introduced an element that affected the franchise in a positive way. And that's why Coto is better than Berman or Braga (though that's not to take anything away from Sussman, who I hear is glad that "Twilight" won the voting since it's his solo writing effort and won't have to split the writing royalties with anyone else), who've already done "Twilight" over and over in the other Trek series.
And, yes, I couldn't believe my ears in the closing scene at sickbay--they were doing a TOS-esque "ending laugh" scene! That was simply awesome.
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I am seriously shocked that so many people are offended by this episode. So let me get this straight...sex can NEVER be used in Trek? In any capacity? Who are all these puritans who are so upset and revolted by any sexual content in Trek? It's a reality. Sex is a powerful social force and has been since the beginning of man. To neglect it because it makes people feel "icky" is incomprehensible.
This episode is not sexist. The women are in charge. What's sexist is the helpless women who Kirk makes out with in the original show. It's the miniskirt that the women have to wear in the original show. Orion "slave" girls who try to wrest power is not sexist.
I feel a lot of this "slave girls is sexist" pap is simply posturing. It's people who think they are saying the proper politically correct things to make themselves feel better. I propose this: let's have more sex. What's wrong with it? What's shameful about the body and its sexual functions? Nothing. As long as it's not completely out of the blue and makes some sense, sex should be a part of the show. Trek, even since the TNG days, was sexual, just that they couldn't go as far as we can now. The whole concept of Risa should be morally reprehensible to the Trek-puritans.
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Quote:
I propose this: let's have more sex. What's wrong with it? What's shameful about the body and its sexual functions? Nothing.
That's right. What's more natural? Killing someone with a phase pistol? Torturing someone in an airlock or an agony booth? Beating the crap out of the captain you captured?
Nudity should not be offensive in any way! It is a thing of nature. We are the only animal to wear clothes and hide our sexual parts. We are denaturalized. Why is a penis or a pair of breast offensive? A real reason? Don't tell me some stupid shit like 'the Church says it's bad' or worse 'because Adam and Eve bit the apple'! There is no real reason.
Though it is normal to show to our kids blood and people getting killed or vaporized. There is something wrong in our society...
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Lincoln Six-Echo: Who is 'God'?
McCord: You know when you really want something, you close your eyes and wish for it really hard? God is the guy that ignores you!
- The Island
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Quote:
Quote:Why is a penis or a pair of breast offensive? A real reason? Don't tell me some stupid shit like 'the Church says it's bad' or worse 'because Adam and Eve bit the apple'! There is no real reason.
Sadly, "the church" or religion, basically, is the reason. Over the years, since the Adam and Eve story has been told, we've been conditioned to believe nudity is inherently shameful. Why? No real reason past religion. Of course, nobody should go around naked all the time for public health and warmth issues, but nudity in itself is nothing to be feared. We're born naked, dammit. Why is it so bad?
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You're incorrect. The church has never taught that our bodies are shameful in anyway. It was SOCIETY that taught us to cover up. The religious stigma comes from the puritan-way of thinking that "women are better seen but no heard". And that related to all apsects of their existence.
The church has already taught that in heaven, clothes really aren't uhm....how should I put this gently...uhm..."God's thing"....so in other words...to those who believe in heaven and hell like I do....you came into the world naked...when you get to the other side...you'll pretty much be naked too...shame is a physical/mortal emotion...once we pass on to the immortal realm...shame will only be a memory...
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"My old friend, this song's for you. Cause a few simple verses was the least that I could do to tell the world that you were here. Cause the love and the laughter, will live on long after all of the sadness and the tears. We'll meet again, my old friend"
Tim McGraw "My Old Friend"
Dedicated To My Home..New Orleans
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I hate to tell you, but it is true that the Church has told us that nudity is wrong. Adam and Eve were gien shame after engaging in carnal sex.
As for Puritans, in fact, real, historical Puritans (the non-frontier American types) were actually encouraging of women taking a role in life outside of the home. Women were even encouraged to join the clergy.
Now you are right that it's an inheritly social construct. All religious values are that. Religion is, just like folklore, a way for people to teach social and moral norms to people easily.
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Uhm, no, Adam and Eve weren't given shame for having carnal sex. They were given shame from the tree of knowledge. They were always naked and never aware of such because they viewed at a totally natural thing. Once all of knowledge was placed into their souls via the tree then shame came with it. So the church has always taught that nudity is natural.
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"My old friend, this song's for you. Cause a few simple verses was the least that I could do to tell the world that you were here. Cause the love and the laughter, will live on long after all of the sadness and the tears. We'll meet again, my old friend"
Tim McGraw "My Old Friend"
Dedicated To My Home..New Orleans
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no, the "Church" hasn't taught that nudity is natural. Go to a Catholic service in your birthday suit if you really want to find out.
The question isn't whether or not God finds nudity offensive, it's that the churches (which were created by man, not God) interperate scripture to say that nudity is wrong.
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"A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
-Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
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"The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
-Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
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In Paradise Lost, Adam and Eve were seduced by Satan into eating from the tree of knowledge. From that, A&E attained unnatural knowledge and engaged in sexual acts which were considered improper for human beings. Although the concept of shame was indeed gotten from the tree itself, everything in the tree was used as punishment by God for their betrayal. Therefore, the pair (and all humans) learned shame as a punishment from God for not following his commands.
Although we are born naked, we are also born into sin according to the Church, which is why Baptisim occurs. If the Christian church did not condone nudity, Christians would be nudists - if not now than certainly during the Roman and medieval periods, when Christianity was completely dominant in society.
I would defy anyone to show me evidence that the Church believes that nudity is the proper state of a human being. I don't even recall any entries where it's suggested that in Heaven human beings are naked.
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Dude, John Milton was full of shit. Read the actualy Bible. King James version. Genesis.
Quote:
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and was afraid and embarassed, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
The Catholic church has always stated that nudity is that natural state of things. But abide by the rule Christ set forward:
"Give unto Ceasar was is Ceasar's and give unto God what is God's".
Which means essentially obey public law (and indecent exposure is against the law) and obey the laws of God.
Yet, the Catholic church does know if everyone goes around naked that it would break the rules of modesty set in [Gal 5:22-23]. Basically saying that it would entice sexual tension now that shame (and lust) is in the world.
So the reason why the Catholic Church doesn't invoke nudity is because one, it would go against "the laws of Cesear", and two there are alot of horny bastards in the world.
Yet, the church constantly says that nudity is the natural order of things, no matter what...
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"My old friend, this song's for you. Cause a few simple verses was the least that I could do to tell the world that you were here. Cause the love and the laughter, will live on long after all of the sadness and the tears. We'll meet again, my old friend"
Tim McGraw "My Old Friend"
Dedicated To My Home..New Orleans
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Well, I'd hardly consider Milton full of shit. He is considered the greatest writers of his generation, and generally the greatest writer of Christian literature of all time.
Although the King James Bible is fine, it's an updated version of the Bible to be more England-friendly, so a better source of information are earlier Bibles. But really, I'm not a Biblical schloar, nor do I claim to be, which was why I asked people to show me references.
Quote:
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
I'm of two minds about this one. On the one hand, if it's considered to be within the realm of the tree of knowledge, then obviously shame is a fact, and that God has a concept of nudity. On the other hand, he doesn't see it fit that they know of shame, so they are uninformed until they eat of the tree, so that seems like proof enough that nudity is the natural state and that God prefers it.
On the other hand, with the references to modestry [Gal 5:22-23] - I don't know what those sections refer to, I would assume they refer to modest as being positive and ammoedesty as being negative. If so, then that's evidence that the Church believes modesty to be preferable to nudity.
If my assumtions about the sections about modesty are wrong, let me know, as I don't want to appear ignorant. As I said, I'm not a Biblical scholar, only a Historian and Folklorist and I'd rather be proven wrong than be ignorant about something! :)
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The modesty thing is a reference to sex as being for love and reproduction and not all about just doing it for doing it...so that's why covering up is preferable because it would entice those who are weak when comes to "resisting the ways of the flesh" type thing.
Modesty isn't wrong, just a "necessary evil" (not saying modesty is evil, just something that unfortunately has to be done) for the sake of others.
If everyone had the ability to uhm...control themselves...as in if we were all naked and gorgeous woman walked up to a guy and the guy could uhm..."keep things down"...then nudity would be promoted more variablly....but, since in today's society teens and some guys that get hardons when the wind blows the wrong way can't control themselves readily...the church just says "cover up and wait til your naked on the other side"....but no, modesty is not wrong...
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"My old friend, this song's for you. Cause a few simple verses was the least that I could do to tell the world that you were here. Cause the love and the laughter, will live on long after all of the sadness and the tears. We'll meet again, my old friend"
Tim McGraw "My Old Friend"
Dedicated To My Home..New Orleans
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I wouldn't even call modesty an evil so to speak. It prevents people from giving into the sins of Lust and Pride in biblical terms, so it's a very handy thing to have to have around.
I'm not even remotely religious, but I do appreciate various religions for their attempts to make society better. Oh, and I hope you don't take my intentional debates personally, I like to debate and get people talking, I'm not out to offend your beliefs or anyone else's. :P
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Oh no no no, no offense taken what-so-ever. I'm not an overtly religious person that like "you heathen! I cast thou soul into the eternal pits!" type person. No. Yeesh, I'm lucky if I'm at church once a month.
No, I'm the type that just clears up misconceptions. Alot of religious zealots have really misconstrued my religion and caused people to start thinking things that are 100% inaccurate dribble.
I just want it cleared up so people don't think we're all idiots and sociopaths...
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"My old friend, this song's for you. Cause a few simple verses was the least that I could do to tell the world that you were here. Cause the love and the laughter, will live on long after all of the sadness and the tears. We'll meet again, my old friend"
Tim McGraw "My Old Friend"
Dedicated To My Home..New Orleans
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Umm... you do realise that even the King James Bible is full of shit.
In fact no sane person would take a text that has been changed and altered so fucking often, seriously.
I've always wondered about why anyone would support a mythical deity who would expel two innocent people from paradise simply because they ate from a tree which gave them a little knowledge.
And who would commit genocide simply because something doesn't go his way. Doesn't seem like a person I'd worship.
Now Ancient Greek Gods are where its at. That Zeus was one hell of a 'PLAYA'. I mean he changed into a woman so he could sleep with Callisto (the lesbian goddess). I mean, geeze. This guy got laid more times then Sam Beckett.
And any religion which is so open to sex that they also worship a goddess like Aphrodite is alright in my book.
Now... if only I could somehow build a holodeck so I could re-create Gabrielle and Xena... lol
Flynn 19
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'Rose, you were fantastic. And you know what? So was I.'
-The Doctor, Doctor Who (2005)
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Oh, Greek gods are so wonderful? Zeus tortured individuals to the point of sickness. Changed their phsyical appearance into demonic forms because he didn't "have his way".
God gave Adam and Eve paradise. LITERALLY. Humankind and Animalkind lived in peace. Lions were even freakin vegetarians! We were capable of talking one on one with animals and having a normal conversation with them!
We were even immortal! Living forever and allowed to never grow old or die! The only rule God asked that we do so we get to keep this glorious lifestyle? No eating the apple. One thing, there were MILLIONS of other things to eat in the Garden of Life. Things that allowed mankind powers that we consider 'magic' by today's standards. In essence, at one time, humans were demi-gods themselves.
But the apple (note, the apple) stripped us of all that. God created the apples on the Tree of Knowledge as a form of temptation. Agreed. It was a constant test to see if we were obeying him at all times (God wasn't always watching us, he now is because out ancestors screwed up).
Would it been so bad had Adam and Eve told the snake to screw off they had better things to do! I mean, hell, I could deal with living for eternity! I could deal with having the ability to go between Heaven and Earth just by thinking! I could deal sitting down to eath with Adam and Eve and asking what the planet was like all those years ago.
Immortality given and kept just for the rule "don't eat the apple". If God gave me that choice, trust me, I would never even look at another apple in all my existence!
As for genocide. Soddom and Gramorrah was a place that can't even be described in words. It was a place were murder took place for the fun of it. People raped children just because they were there. Those two cities were a danger to mankind in general. So what did he do? He took the holiest family in the world, told them to pack their bags and get ready for a 'little thunderstorm'.
God takes care of his own. Mankind can no longer comprehend God because of the stupid apple. That's why you consider him 'fictious' because the apple from the Tree of Knowledge placed doubt also too in Adam and Eve's soul, hence allowing you to doubt the existence of God.
Thank the stupid snake...not God...
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"My old friend, this song's for you. Cause a few simple verses was the least that I could do to tell the world that you were here. Cause the love and the laughter, will live on long after all of the sadness and the tears. We'll meet again, my old friend"
Tim McGraw "My Old Friend"
Dedicated To My Home..New Orleans
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What's funny is people were screaming out of joy knowing the Orions were coming back, 'We want more Orions,' they wre saying, but now that we've had them, they're not happy calling the whole thing sexist.
WHAT WERE YOU EXPECTING?! IT'S THE ORIONS AND THEY HAVE SLAVE GIRLS!!!
Sorry for the outburst, I just don't get it how some people seem to have either a forgetting mind (of what the Orions always were and of what they previously said...)
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Lincoln Six-Echo: Who is 'God'?
McCord: You know when you really want something, you close your eyes and wish for it really hard? God is the guy that ignores you!
- The Island
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We've known since the episode "The Cage" what the Orion culture is like. Master and slave, with sex being the driving force to control.
We never knew that it was really the Animal Women that were the masters however, and after seeing "Bound" I definitely hope the new series (in four or five years unfortunately) will have them again as a villain just as evil and devilish as in "Bound".
The only quirk about "Bound" I will say that I was not fond of was the very last part of the episode. I am a Trip/T'Pol fan. I wanted the relationship to cement and be perfect. But now Trip rubs it off as "this thing between us, not a big deal" and LEAVES! Ugh, I wanna hit Trip with the bunt end of a phase pistol...what a moron!
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"My old friend, this song's for you. Cause a few simple verses was the least that I could do to tell the world that you were here. Cause the love and the laughter, will live on long after all of the sadness and the tears. We'll meet again, my old friend"
Tim McGraw "My Old Friend"
Dedicated To My Home..New Orleans
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I think he was acutally teasing T'Pol with the slight smile and expression, that 'this thing between us', is indeed really important to him. I would assume it had a part in wanting to come back to the Enterprise.
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Lincoln Six-Echo: Who is 'God'?
McCord: You know when you really want something, you close your eyes and wish for it really hard? God is the guy that ignores you!
- The Island
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What's sexist is the helpless women who Kirk makes out with in the original show. It's the miniskirt that the women have to wear in the original show. Orion "slave" girls who try to wrest power is not sexist.
I understand and agree with the point you were trying to make, but TOS was not sexist because the women wore miniskirts. In fact, at the time it was considered liberating for women to be able to wear revealing clothes like the miniskirt. As for "Bound", I liked it. It wasn't the greatest episode but it was entertaining and we finally got to see behind the Orion Syndicate. I'm going to watch those DS9 episode that dealt with the Syndicate in a whole new light.
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There once was a man named Scorned,
whose posts were more offensive than porn.
He posted one too many,
got kicked out on his fanny,
and all the while he had been warned.
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Quote:
What's sexist is the helpless women who Kirk makes out with in the original show. It's the miniskirt that the women have to wear in the original show. Orion "slave" girls who try to wrest power is not sexist.
Sorry I pasted the quote directly onto the main dialogue box instead of the quote box.
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There once was a man named Scorned,
whose posts were more offensive than porn.
He posted one too many,
got kicked out on his fanny,
and all the while he had been warned.
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No, I agree TOS wasn't sexist. I'm making the point (poorly, I guess :S) that if you want to attack Trek for being sexist, there are much more obvious places to attempt that. Risa, a whole planet devoted to getting it on, for instance. I'm not complaining, though...
I think the problem with people hatin' on Trek for having sexuality is deeper than an episode. Nowhere else do you see this type of rabid anti-sexualness. Why is it on Trek board everywhere, people are so put off/scared/repulsed by the female form? I don't get it. Whatever. To each their own. Obviously, I'm not the one who'se going to change their mind.
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