Mirror-Universe Connection? | Report this post to moderator
By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:30:56 on Jan 12, 2005

I wonder if this will make any attempts to explain the relationship between our universe and the Mirror universe. I don't just mean the issue of when the timeline diverged -- I mean the reason why the two universes are so closely connected and why it is so easy (comparatively) to pass between the two...

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Scheduling wrong on TrekWeb | Report this post to moderator
By: Faxanadu (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:10:28 on Jan 10, 2005

Hey Steve, the scheduling is kinda messed up.

I can confirm that Daedelus is the ONLY episode airing this week, Observer Effect is not in there as a two-episode piece. I checked the listings for Friday in a couple of major markets, including my home and it's only the one.

Also, In a Mirror, Darkly and Untitled Orion are not airing at the same time (March 4th), nor do I believe any ENT episode is airing March 4th, I believe after Feb Sweeps, there is a 2-3 week break period again.

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• RE: Scheduling wrong on TrekWeb | Report this post to moderator
  By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:43:39 on Jan 11, 2005

  Yeah I know. I had the date wrong on one of them. And yes the March dates are just guesses even though obviously they'll probably hold the last five or so until late April through May Sweeps. Until it's official, these dates are as good as any.
  
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Something's definately wrong here... | Report this post to moderator
By: PG15 (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:41:06 on Jan 08, 2005

What happened to that Orion episode? And why would the episode be aired so close to the end of Febuary sweeps?

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• RE: Something's definately wrong here... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Avilos (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:17:42 on Jan 09, 2005 | (2)

  I think there are mistakes in the schedule above. The audition side's for the Orion episode leaked out right before the holidays. When they got back from their two week break they had two more days left to finish Divergence. The Orion episode must be what they are filming now. "In a Mirror, Darkly" must be the next episode after that. Because they are casting for it now. The production report for "Affliction" says that there will be reruns for the first 3 weeks of March.

  
  

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• RE: Something's definately wrong here... | Report this post to moderator
  By: JagMan (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 22:05:50 on Jan 08, 2005

  You answered your own question.

  
  

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  • RE: Something's definately wrong here... | Report this post to moderator
    By: PG15 (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:25:23 on Jan 09, 2005

    I'm not getting you...

    
    

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Nice Title... | Report this post to moderator
By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:56:02 on Jan 08, 2005

Can't really comment about the episode yet, though it does sound interesting (I love episodes that through the typical formula out the window). But I do have to say, this is one of the more inventive titles I've seen for an Enterprise episode...actually, I'd venture to say this may be the best episode title yet!

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• RE: Nice Title... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Sxottlan (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:39:15 on Jan 08, 2005

  Quote:
  I'd venture to say this may be the best [Enterprise] episode title yet!
  
  I agree.

  
  

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*SHUDDERS* | Report this post to moderator
By: EntFan! (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:13:52 on Jan 08, 2005

OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH MAMMMMAAAAAAA......FANGASM!


I need a cigarette now...and tissue paper...

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"My old friend, this song's for you. Cause a few simple verses was the least that I could do to tell the world that you were here. Cause the love and the laughter, will live on long after all of the sadness and the tears. We'll meet again, my old friend"

Tim McGraw "My Old Friend"
Dedicated To My Home..New Orleans

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• RE: *SHUDDERS* | Report this post to moderator
  By: Keoki (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:30:04 on Jan 11, 2005

  It sounds like an interesting episode, but its anyone else getting a little tired of stories stemming from First Contact? I mean, not only did it introduce Earth to Vulcan and let the Borg know about humanity, now we're going to find out it caused the Mirror Universe too?? Just because Brannon Braga cowrote the film. As Back to the Future's Doc Brown would say, it seems to be a focal point for the entire space-time continuum. There've got to be more original ideas they can come up with.
  
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Alright... | Report this post to moderator
By: The_Sisko (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:01:39 on Jan 08, 2005

It sounds alright. Episodes which step away from the series' standard format have turned out good before (in my opinion, ones like "11:59" or "The Inner Light"). I'll have to see it though before I pass any type of judgment either way.

But, if Lily's in it, it'll at least have one character I'll love.

I Love Lily! :)

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-Winston Churchill

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One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
By: Gul Telly (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:13:50 on Jan 08, 2005

What will Picard, Riker, Geordi, Troi, and Beverly be doing during this attack? Surely the tight "Enterprise" budget can't afford to bring Patrick "Help, I'm Stuck Doing Prescription Antacid Commercials" Stewart, Jonathan "Two Takes" Frakes, LeVar "I Hate Enterprise but I'll Direct For It" Burton, Marina "Hell, I did Voyager, why not this?" Sirtis and Gates "Why Don't I Get a Sarcastic Nickname?" McFadden into the episode. They were there. Surely Picard would act.

I'm just psyched to see Jamie Cromwell again. Id watch that dude read the prime time viewing schedule for the "E" channel (and I HATE the E Channel). How cool it'd be to see him and Alfre Woodard team up for this ep!!!

Anyhow... my 2 slips of gold-pressed latinum.

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• RE: One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
  By: JagMan (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 13:35:42 on Jan 08, 2005

  Guy, I think you need a hug. Funny stuff.
  
  Anywho, the events of First Contact will not apply since the Enterprise E won't be chasing the Borg back in time (I should add that I loathed First Contact, a film that disgarded Trek history, removed the mystery of the Borg and forever soiled how I viewed Picard as a captain). Still, assuming the Vulcans are mobbed and beaten within an inch of heir lives you kind of have to wonder why they would form an empire with humans.
  
  Sounds like a fun episode either way.

  
  

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  • RE: One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
    By: Man on Fire: Jeremiah 20:9 (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 18:17:08 on Jan 08, 2005

    Dang! First Contact was awesome and was the best of the TNG movies by a LONG shot! Picard was shown as being a flawed human being and not the perfect condacending man he had been portrayed as through most of TNG. And the movie had th best acting , villian, and supporting characters of all the Trek movies accept ST:VI.
    
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  • RE: One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
    By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:40:57 on Jan 08, 2005

    Vulcan was likely conquered and absorbed by Earth forces, rather than some brutal political alliance.
    
    Damn, we're good.

    
    

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• RE: One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:27:12 on Jan 08, 2005

  Quote:
  What will Picard, Riker, Geordi, Troi, and Beverly be doing during this attack?
  
  Probably in the 24th century, as slaves of or rebels against the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance...
  
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  • RE: One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
    By: NCC-1701 (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:20:00 on Jan 08, 2005

    But then the Pheonix would never have been repaired and the Vulcan's will never have landed.
    
    And as soon as the mob ran Picard et al would disappear because history would never unfold in the way that sent them back?
    
    I love Temporal Causality Threads! :P

    
    

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    • RE: One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
      By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:39:15 on Jan 08, 2005

      Quote:
      But then the Pheonix would never have been repaired and the Vulcan's will never have landed.
      
      The Phoenix would never have been damaged, as it was a Borg sphere from the "normal" 24th-century universe that traveled back in time and bombed Bozeman from space.
      
      If you have a Borg sphere from the 24th century, then you have an Enterprise-E. It's both or neither. I'm betting on "neither".
      
      I think I'm getting another one of those temporal nosebleeds.

      
      

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      • RE: One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
        By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:03:13 on Jan 08, 2005

        Exactly. Q led Picard et al to J-25 to meet the Borg there in "Q Who?." I'd venture to say that neiter the Alliance nor the Rebels have met the Borg, and are "just now" meeting the Dominion b/c our Kira introduced them to the wormhole in "Crossover."
        
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        • RE: One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
          By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:37:33 on Jan 08, 2005

          I just thought of something else as well.
          
          TrekToday is reporting that it was one human in particular who instigated it. Assuming this person was not Lily or Cochrane, what if the initial Borg attack on Bozeman in the beginning of FC killed that person?
          
          This means two things:
          1) In a twisted way, the Borg are responsible for the Federation! If the mob leader was dead, the Vulcan crew wouldn't have been killed, and eventually the Federation would've been founded.
          2) There is a very disconcerting predestination paradox involved in all of this. There's no way to tell which timeline begat the other!
          
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          • RE: One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
            By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:39:40 on Jan 09, 2005

            interesting theory.
            
            Except that it implies that the Trek history that we all come to know and love IS ACTUALLY THE ALTERNATE UNIVERSE!! IF the paradox stemmed from the initial temporal incursion by the borg, then that would mean that the "original" timeline would be one without the temporal meddling, and thus history panned out exactly as it was originally supposed to in what we know as the ALternate Universe. IF your theory is correct, then They ARE thr original and Federation-esque Universe that all know of, is the alternate.
            
            Don't know how well that would sit with some fans.
            I think It would be kind of exciting!
            
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            • RE: One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
              By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:50:12 on Jan 09, 2005

              Quote:
              Except that it implies that the Trek history that we all come to know and love IS ACTUALLY THE ALTERNATE UNIVERSE!! IF the paradox stemmed from the initial temporal incursion by the borg, then that would mean that the "original" timeline would be one without the temporal meddling, and thus history panned out exactly as it was originally supposed to in what we know as the ALternate Universe. IF your theory is correct, then They ARE thr original and Federation-esque Universe that all know of, is the alternate.
              
              Don't know how well that would sit with some fans.
              I think It would be kind of exciting!
              
              Not necessarily. If the MU timeline is the "original," how did the meddling occur in the first place? That's the insurmountable paradox I mentioned, which is the only loophole that I can think of.
              
              If B&B were writing this one, it's likely that they'd explain it as the TCW in action, which would be even more confusing. Thankfully, that's not the case.
              
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      • RE: One tiny question... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Gul Telly (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:02:45 on Jan 08, 2005

        In one of the many "Voyager" episodes that loved talking about the events of "First Contact" and the fact that Picard and company were present all along:
        
        First contact happened BECAUSE the Borg went back in time and took the Enterprise with them, and the Enterprise crew made the Phoenix flight-worthy. She called it a "Pogo" anomaly I believe.

        
        

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Star Trek Preserver | Report this post to moderator
By: GustavoLeao (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 03:26:40 on Jan 08, 2005

This sounds very interesting. There's a passing reference in the Shatner/Reeves-Stevens novel PRESERVER to a theory that explains how the mirror universe was created and why it, unlike a myriad of quantum-level duplicates, remains linked to the Federation universe. That theory ties the split to the events of First Contact, where the Borg sphere from Picard's time back to 2063 to try to prevent the First Contact of humans and Vulcans that leads to the Borg-defying Federation. Positing that the event creates a new timeline - we get the original, Borg-free timeline leading to the creation of the Federation and a second timeline leading to the feral Galactic Empire.



Gustavo

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• RE: Star Trek Preserver | Report this post to moderator
  By: Writer4GoodTrek (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:13:56 on Jan 08, 2005

  Keep in mind however that "First Contact" was a predestination paradox according to both the movie and "Preserver". The point of divergence comes after first contact when Cochrane makes a decision to either ever speak of the Borg and his adventure with people from the 24th century or not. That was the point of divergence according to "Preserver":
  
  In the regular universe, he never mentioned it. The humans and Vulcans lived happily ever after building the Federation without incident and the Borg weren't discovered until 2365.
  
  In the Mirror Universe, Cochrane talked opening about the Borg and the Enteprise-E. That lead to mistrust among the Vulcans and instabiulity that ultimately lead to the rise of the Terran Empire.
  
  Remaining consistent with that established in "Preserver" (written by "Enterprise" staff writers Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens, along with William Shatner), that is why is very clear that "Enterprise" IS in the Mirror Universe. It is not a prequel to TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY. It is a prequel to thge Mirror Universe.
  
  To play it any other way would be a continuity breach.

  
  

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  • RE: Star Trek Preserver | Report this post to moderator
    By: Janus (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:42:43 on Jan 09, 2005

    Wasn't there a line of dialogue in 'Regeneration' where Archer states that cochrane talked of 'Bio-mechanical Zombies'?
    
    If that was so how does that fit in with your theory?
    
    I mean he has mentioned it to star fleet so are you saying that potentially, Enterprise could be the Mirror universe?
    
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    • RE: Star Trek Preserver | Report this post to moderator
      By: Writer4GoodTrek (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:03:07 on Jan 10, 2005

      I am stating that according to "Preserver", "Enterprise" would be the Mirror Universe. Not probably. Not possibly. It would be without a doubt the Mirror Universe.
      
      The Paramount definition of canon is anything you have seen on screen live-action, plus "Yesteryear" of TAS, and any novel written by a member of the production staff.
      
      For years, the debate raged that William Shatner only directed one movie and co-wrote it. And he hardly contributed in reality to the Shatnerverse books. Plus, the movie staff and the in-house TV staff are different. Etc. Etc.
      
      That debate was squelched with the hire of Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens to the "Enterprise" writing staff. Now, not only do the books at the very least retroactively fall into canon, but stories are already developing that canonize the novels on screen. For example, the Vulcan sect in the bombing episode-arc was the same cult from "Avenger" in an earlier stage.
      
      So, my point was initially, if they are going to be consistent with "Preserver" (which should be canon) then "Enterprise" is the Mirror Universe without question.
      
      Given the discontinuities of the series compared to the others, that seems also a very logical solution to get them out of a continuity nightmare.

      
      

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      • RE: Star Trek Preserver | Report this post to moderator
        By: Sxottlan (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:27:03 on Jan 13, 2005

        Quote:
        The Paramount definition of canon is anything you have seen on screen live-action, plus "Yesteryear" of TAS, and any novel written by a member of the production staff.
        
        Go over to the TrekLit forum at TrekBBS and ask any writer or editor there and they'll tell you what I said before. The novels are not canon. Not even the two by Jeri Taylor. Abyss was written by some former DS9 writers and it is also not canon. And as far as I'm aware, neither is any of TAS. I don't know where you're getting this definition from.
        
        Quote:
        That debate was squelched with the hire of Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens to the "Enterprise" writing staff.
        
        Again, no.
        
        Quote:
        Now, not only do the books at the very least retroactively fall into canon, but stories are already developing that canonize the novels on screen. For example, the Vulcan sect in the bombing episode-arc was the same cult from "Avenger" in an earlier stage.
        
        There's a difference between using people, places and things from a book and the whole book being canon.

        
        

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      • RE: Star Trek Preserver | Report this post to moderator
        By: GustavoLeao (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 06:41:34 on Jan 11, 2005

        I agree with you. Paramount should make the awesome Shatnerverse novels (ASHES OF EDEN, THE RETURN, AVENGER, SPECTRE, DARK VICTORY, PRESERVER, CAPTAIN'S PERIL, CAPTAIN'S BLOOD and the upcoming CAPTAIN'S GLORY) part of the official canon.
        
        Gustavo
        
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        gl2000@uol.com.br

        
        

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  • RE: Star Trek Preserver | Report this post to moderator
    By: Sxottlan (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:23:56 on Jan 08, 2005 | (1)

    Quote:
    Keep in mind however that "First Contact" was a predestination paradox according to both the movie and "Preserver". The point of divergence comes after first contact when Cochrane makes a decision to either ever speak of the Borg and his adventure with people from the 24th century or not. That was the point of divergence according to "Preserver"...To play it any other way would be a continuity breach.
    
    Except that the novels are not canon. That the book takes a moment in FC and spins a theory about the mirror universe seen only in that book does not mean the show's writers have to adhere to it. That the episode Regeneration has a moment that coincides with a book's theory about the origin of that universe does not make that book canon or the coincidence confirmed.

    
    

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  • RE: Star Trek Preserver | Report this post to moderator
    By: IdiotBoy (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:08:34 on Jan 08, 2005

    Novels aren't canon.
    
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    • RE: Star Trek Preserver | Report this post to moderator
      By: GustavoLeao (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 08:45:19 on Jan 09, 2005

      Okay, here it is - my "personal" canon :
      
      The TV Series and Movies (of course)
      
      The Animated Series
      
      The Shatnerverse Novels by Shatner and the Reeves-Stevens
      
      Star Trek New Frontier by Peter David (plus other novels by David like Vendetta)
      
      The Deep Space Nine Relaunch Novels
      
      The Voyager Homecoming Novels
      
      Star Trek Debt of Honor Graphic Novel by Chris Clameront
      
      The Captain April novels by Diane Carey
      
      Gustavo
      
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      gl2000@uol.com.br

      
      

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• RE: Star Trek Preserver | Report this post to moderator
  By: Writer4GoodTrek (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:13:45 on Jan 08, 2005 | (1)

  And Manny Coto is trying to fix this leaky boat, not put more leaks in it.

  
  

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Interesting | Report this post to moderator
By: Man on Fire: Jeremiah 20:9 (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 02:49:11 on Jan 08, 2005

This sounds interesting and I hope it pans out. I think 'Mirror, Mirror' is one of the classic Trek episodes that I find myself watching more often than the much raved about "City on the edge of forever' or 'Trouble with Tribbles'. It was a really cool concept and it worked great. Then DS9 came along (Which I love by the way!) and turned a promising concept into trash. DS9's first two entries into the mirror universe were fine but after that they degenerated into pure comic crap that rivaled some of the worst Ferangi episodes in the mediocrity.

I hope they pull this off and I get to see a return to form for one of the coolest concepts that has ever graced Trek.

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• RE: Interesting | Report this post to moderator
  By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:09:09 on Jan 08, 2005

  I think DS9 had a little bit of fun with it in a couple episodes but by the end they had O'Brien leading a Terran rebellion and all sorts of great echoes of the TOS "Mirror, Mirror" classic taking place.
  
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  • RE: Interesting | Report this post to moderator
    By: Man on Fire: Jeremiah 20:9 (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 03:49:36 on Jan 08, 2005

    Upon looking at it again, I liked the first 3 episodes. When Jenifer died was the last one that I liked. After that though the Kira slut became seemed to completely take over and lead the episodes into ruin.
    
    "The Emporer's New Cloak" was a misfire of epic proportions. Who ever decided that merging the mirror universe (which was all ready struglling with mediocrity) with a Ferangi themed episode (which make up some of DS9's worst with a few exceptions) really needed to have his head examined. I also didn't care much for the one where Berial shows up with Kira Slut on his tail... ugh.
    
    I know this is just my opinion but those episodes where one of the few blemishes on what is hands down my favorite TV series bar none. the only episode worse than "The Emporer's New Cloak" would have to be "Let he who is wothout sin"! Ugh, Vanessa Williams in Trek. Yuck
    
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    • RE: Interesting | Report this post to moderator
      By: NCC-1701 (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:24:47 on Jan 08, 2005

      DS9's Ferengi instalments were extremely well done (especially when compared to TNG's) and rhey used Quark well to explore a species and Alliance we otherwise would and haven't got to see.

      
      

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      • RE: Interesting | Report this post to moderator
        By: Man on Fire: Jeremiah 20:9 (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 11:47:29 on Jan 08, 2005

        The Ferangi episodes where actually pretty bad most of the time. I found that DS9 had no trouble driving home the fact that Ferangi were greedy SOBs without giving them as many episodes as they did. Most of the time all the episodes really showed us was how different Quark was becoming due to his time with the Federation. Not all of them were bad, just most of them. "The Magnificent Ferangi", "Body Parts", "Ferangi Love Songs", "Profit and Lace", "
        The Emperor's New Cloak", "Profit Motive" were all episodes that were just a waste of time. I am by no means blaming Quark because Shimmerman did an excellent job on Quark but I always found it much more effective to have Quark be given a subplot in an episode that showed his greed or that of his people. When an entire episode is dedicated to them it just became farce. Some exceptions where "The Rules of Aquisition", "The Nagus", and "Bar Association". I was also always able to take Quark seriously and in the Ferangi episodes it made it really hard to take the rest of his people seriously and made it very difficult to imagine how his people never managed to get themselves wiped out. Episodes like "Business as Usual" showed the greed of Ferangi and the struggles Quark had with it better than any of the episodes mentioned above and also managed to create a Ferangi in Gayla that was greedy but didn't resort to some kind of slapstick farce.
        
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    • RE: Interesting | Report this post to moderator
      By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:35:06 on Jan 08, 2005

      Don't forget "Resurrection", where Mirror Bareil comes to our universe, and ...
      
      Actually, go ahead and forget that one. But those first three were pretty darn good, weren't they?
      
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