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By: StarWorld (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:24:24 on Sep 17, 2004

Steve, no offense you are wasting your time trying to talk about how the show is run. People are just angry about their show and the direction it's going and they want to blame everyone down to the PA for not standing up to Berman and changing it.

I've worked in TV for years, and still do from time to time and let me tell you when you have someone like Berman (which is 90%) of the excutives in the business you know damn well you don't say ANYTHING to them but good morning and good afternoon if you want to keep your job.

There is nothing Coto can do but his best and hope that Berman and Braga don't take his idea's and tell him to go back to the drawing board.

Moore had the same problems on Voyager but he quit because he wasn't about to report to Braga every week. Or at least that's the jist of what happened.

I wish Coto all the luck, and I still think Enterprise is a much better show then VOYAGER EVER WAS. The look and style of Enterprise's 1st year was amazing. I though most of last year was just silly and boring but it was still better then anything Voyager could put together in 7 years.

Anyway, good luck trying to convince them steve... by the way are you in LA now? You still keeping in touch with Eric S? Eric told me to email you sometime and get together but I never found your posts until now.

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Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:43:15 on Sep 16, 2004

Quote from Steve Krutzler:
In the second installment in the arc, currently untitled, TrekWeb has learned that at least two Vulcan notables will make an appearance.


Considering ENT's abuse of Vulcans, including Manny Coto's treatment of T'Pol in S3, this special attention to the species may be a disaster. Vulcans are a Trek icon, thanks to Spock; if S4 further mutilates the archetype, ENT may go from being a laughing stock to being seriously despised by Star Trek fans.


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• RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
  By: TrekGuy 001 (Odo's file, contact) @ 02:16:27 on Sep 17, 2004

  Maybe they'll keep them consistent with TOS Vulcans. That is to say, murderous (T'Pring), jealous (Stonn), dishonest (T'Pau), and arrogant (all known Vulcans).

  
  

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  • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
    By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:58:39 on Sep 17, 2004

    Quote:
    Maybe they'll keep them consistent with TOS Vulcans. That is to say, murderous (T'Pring), jealous (Stonn), dishonest (T'Pau), and arrogant (all known Vulcans).
    
    1) Tpring was not "murderous", but exercising her marriage rights under Vulcan law.
    
    2) Stonn was jealous, yes. We never said Vulcans lacked emotion, only that they controlled them else they would be murderous savages worse than anything humans had seen.
    
    3) How was T'Pau dishonest?
    
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    • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
      By: TrekGuy 001 (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:13:39 on Sep 17, 2004

      1) "Marriage rights" is a quaint euphamism, but when someone arranges a fight to the death between one person who has no choice, and another who doesn't know what he's getting into, that person is murderous, state sanctioned or not.
      2) Stonn was certainly doing a lousy job of controlling his emotions. What was his excuse? Half human? Mind Control? Disease? Time travel? Under the influence? Nope, just "love."
      3) T'Pau tells Starfleet that she personally requested the Enterprise after the fact, just to get Kirk off of the hook (and no, it wasn't time delay, since the Enterprise was able to talk to both Starfleet and Vulcan in realtime earlier in the episode). She also doesn't find it relevant to tell Kirk that he is agreeing to a fight to the death, which is a lie of omission, not to mention cruel. Not that it's related to honesty, but two Vulcan goons sticking knives at McCoy's throat after he prostested this action isn't exactly an example of rational, peace loving Vulcans either.
      
      If Vulcan males have the biological necessity to Mate or Die (or not die as the reset button allows) that is one thing. But to maintain a ritual for these purposes where everyone involved throws away all decency makes no sense. What does make sense is that Vulcans are just as petty as anyone else and they just couch it in tradition, and "logical" doubletalk ("His next move should have been the Rook!" because it is apparently logical to play to lose). The only other episode to feature other Vulcans in TOS was Journey to Babel, and once again, you have two Vulcans behaving irrationally, with both Sarek and Spock refusing to talk to each other for decades after disagreeing over Spock's career choice. For a rational race, they certainly know how to hold a grudge.

      
      

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      • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:18:24 on Sep 18, 2004

        I read TRexx's and katefan's very good responses below, but I will address this as well:
        
        Quote:
        
        1) "Marriage rights" is a quaint euphamism, but when someone arranges a fight to the death between one person who has no choice,
        
        It was a long time Vulcan "law" and the Kunat kala fi was a term which translates into the "marriage or challenge", where "traditionally", the "challenge" was to the "death". This came out of the fact as noted within Trek that males routinely "fought" for their mates anyway, but in a more disorganized and barbaric fashion. The ritual "civilizes" the process, making it less random but allowing for the instinct to be left intact.
        
        However if you look at VOY "Blood Fever", you will find that B'Elanna, now under the influence of Vorik's mind link with her upon the onset of his Pon Farr, has chosen the "challenge", and she chose herself as "champion" to fight Vorik. And according to Tuvok, she was also in her right AND at the end, it didn't go "to the death". The physical exertion of the battle between the two resolved the physiological effects of the Pon Farr.
        
        Quote:
        
        and another who doesn't know what he's getting into, that person is murderous, state sanctioned or not.
        
        Part of the point of TOS "Amok Time", from the perspective of Kirk, can be analogized in the same type of behavior seen for Picard in TNG "Q Who?". It's called "Human arrogance".
        
        T'Pau tells Kirk beforehand:
        
        "Kirk. T'Pring is within her rights, but our laws and customs are not binding on thee. Thee are free to decline with no harm on thyself."
        
        Now, this statement is very very clear. T'Pau informs Kirk that their laws and customs are NOT "binding" on him as an "outworlder". And he was "free to decline". It doesn't matter what it was that he would be free to decline. The point was that he HAD the "choice" (free will). And Kirk even asks a clarifying question about what would happen if he declined and T'Pau tells him simply that another champion would be selected. And then there is a side debate with McCoy who reiterates to Kirk, that he didn't have to go through with it and he noted about how thin the air was and had earlier commented on the high temperature. And LASTLY, out of an apparently "physiologically impossible" occurrence, Spock begins to speak in the midst of his Plak Tow ("blood fever"), much to the shock and amazement of T'Pau - who at that point wonders aloud about how he could possibly even speak in the condition he was in. And she even makes a comment about how "thin" his Vulcan blood must have been. And Spock pleads and begs to T'Pau to forbid Kirk from participation.
        
        And despite THREE people telling him that he was NOT required to do it, Kirk made his decision to do it anyway.
        
        And what we saw at that point was his Human ego, as he goes on about T'Pau being "all of Vulcan in one package" and worrying about how he would look if he "backed down".
        
        Ie., his manhood was challenged.
        
        So now he finds himself facing the consequences of his hasty judgment.
        
        So you can't argue anything here because this was crafted on purpose to increase the drama and to underscore Human ego and arrogance.
        
        Quote:
        
        2) Stonn was certainly doing a lousy job of controlling his emotions. What was his excuse? Half human? Mind Control? Disease? Time travel? Under the influence? Nope, just "love."
        
        But you follow the Bragaverse Vulcans who supposedly have biological rather than voluntary control over emotions. You fall into the trap of thinking that all Vulcans not in the ENT Bragaverse are monolithic.
        
        Quote:
        
        3) T'Pau tells Starfleet that she personally requested the Enterprise after the fact, just to get Kirk off of the hook (and no, it wasn't time delay, since the Enterprise was able to talk to both Starfleet and Vulcan in realtime earlier in the episode).
        
        Huh? The ship had to have been in contact with Vulcan well before they eventually got there, because once Kirk had initially accepted Spock's request to take a leave of absence, Kirk ordered that they alter course and go straight to Vulcan. And it was only after they were on their way, when Kirk had to rescind the leave request due to new orders for them to attend a function on another planet (Altair VI). And thus begins Spock's actions that altered the course of the ship, without approval, to go BACK on course to Vulcan. And he did this several times until he was caught and ended up going through an embarrasing litany to Kirk about his Vulcan "biology".
        
        So what does this have to do with "after the fact"? I expect that Spock was the one to contact T'Pau to announce he was coming once he got the initial approval and he most likely factually noted that Kirk, Captain of his ship, would be doing the ferrying. Remember, T'Pau, who was an obvious big wig, was officiating, so she had to get advance notice in order to get everything ready before Spock arrived. And since Spock was going to make sure that they got there by hook or by crook and Kirk had indicated that they would get there eventually (once they were done with their side mission), no other contact was made to the planet because they WERE going to get there, whether sooner or later.
        
        Thus expect that T'Pau was was well aware that Spock was on his way there and she would make the "formal" request to Star Fleet.
        
        Quote:
        
        She also doesn't find it relevant to tell Kirk that he is agreeing to a fight to the death, which is a lie of omission, not to mention cruel.
        
        She TOLD him that he could decline and that none of this applied to him. But of course you missed the whole point.
        
        Quote:
        
        Not that it's related to honesty, but two Vulcan goons sticking knives at McCoy's throat after he prostested this action isn't exactly an example of rational, peace loving Vulcans either.
        
        On the contrary, everything about Vulcans HAS BEEN irrational and barbaric, ALL hidden under careful meditations and the use of "logic" to argue - which in essence forces them to do like Humans often do - "count to 10", where their "counting to 10" is their recitation and debate of the various and sundry possibilities on how to proceed, where details pro and con come into play. Thus actions are delayed because of this process and often helps to diffuse tensions.
        
        Quote:
        
        If Vulcan males have the biological necessity to Mate or Die (or not die as the reset button allows) that is one thing. But to maintain a ritual for these purposes where everyone involved throws away all decency makes no sense.
        
        On the contrary, the ritual formalizes a practice of a male going mad and killing anyone around him to get a mate. It is not unlike the animals here on Earth who fight for their mates - you know, an "Alpha Male" rises among a group and has first dibs on the female.
        
        Quote:
        
        What does make sense is that Vulcans are just as petty as anyone else and they just couch it in tradition, and "logical" doubletalk ("His next move should have been the Rook!" because it is apparently logical to play to lose).
        
        You have a very superficial perspective of sociology and anthropology and how actual Human cultures do the same today - up to and including modern Westerners, where in many traditional "established" Churchs, the female wears a VEIL as a bride. Why does a woman in a bridal dress wear a "veil"? The answer will give you an idea as to an equivalent as to why Vulcans do what they do in their rituals.
        
        Quote:
        
        The only other episode to feature other Vulcans in TOS was Journey to Babel, and once again, you have two Vulcans behaving irrationally, with both Sarek and Spock refusing to talk to each other for decades after disagreeing over Spock's career choice. For a rational race, they certainly know how to hold a grudge.
        
        You wish to attribute Bragaverse nonsense on Trek Vulcans and it is as faulty as one can get because the "real" Vulcan is known by the rest of us and is not some made up mannequin that the Bragaverse has made them to be.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

        
        

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      • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:41:03 on Sep 18, 2004 | (1)

        Quote from TrekGuy 001 to katefan:
        If Vulcan males have the biological necessity to Mate or Die (or not die as the reset button allows) that is one thing. But to maintain a ritual for these purposes where everyone involved throws away all decency makes no sense.
        
        
        No decency is thrown away, because there's little of (Human) "decency" in the process of Pon Farr.
        
        Spock describes the Pon Farr drive in terms of precedent in nature: "On your Earth, the salmon; they must return to that one stream where they were born, to spawn, or die in trying". Likewise, a fight to the death, when the act of mating is challenged, has precedent in nature -- i.e. where male mammals vie for a female, in bloody and sometimes lethal combat. Those mammals, no matter how intelligent or otherwise peaceful, aren't guilty of poor courtship etiquette -- they're driven by their biology. Tooth and nail.
        
        Spock knows that the Kal-if-fee is a fight to the death; yet, he's consumed by the Plak-tow blood fever, a biological phenomenon that's so overwhelming that T'Pau is surprised that Spock can even speak, when his deep friendship with Kirk musters an objection to his involvement. Nonetheless, Spock's corporeal possession -- a physiological imperative -- is resolved only by a fight to the death. Spock throttles Kirk until his fevered mind believes that the opponent is dead. Only then does Spock awaken from his biologically altered state of mind. You grossly err in presuming that Spock chose his barbaric actions above better judgement.
        
        Since this is an inescapable (biological) process, and it involves the transfer of legal ownership of estate and tangible goods -- as marriages often do -- why shouldn't it be officiated and conducted in a manner that can be described as ceremony or ritual?
        
        T'Pring isn't murderous. She didn't choose the biological imperative nor the ancient laws designed to resolve an inevitably lethal situation in a "fair" manner. As T'Pring notes, she can only divorce Spock by the Koon-ut-kal-if-fee, as is her right. Ston's blurt hardly amounts to waves of lover jealously, as he claims an arrangement with T'Pring in this matter -- also in compliance with ancient laws -- and there was no opportunity for T'Pring to explain to him the logic behind her improvised plan to choose an unexpected attendee (Kirk) as the champion for her challenge (and Spock later praises her logic.)
        
        As for your claim of T'Pau's dishonesty: You twist ambiguous words to your liking. At the end of Amok Time, Starfleet grants Enterprise's diversion to Vulcan, per T'Pau's request -- but no specific timeframe for the original request is given. In fact, the response to Starfleet's message is, "Well, a little late, but I'm glad they're seeing it our way". That "a little late" notation means that the original request from T'Pau was sent appreciably earlier, versus "after the fact."
        
        All in all, you seem to labor under the notion that Vulcans are rational by nature. You are mistaken.
        
        
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        • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
          By: TrekGuy 001 (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:02:29 on Sep 18, 2004

          1) It shouldn't be officiated and conducted by ceremonies and rituals because ceremonies and rituals are by definition illogical. They maintain these rituals out of tradition, and not out of biological necessity. I doubt if Vulcan undergoing Pon Farr has an evolutionary need to bang on gongs, and light torches. Those are social constructions, and as such, can be replaced with other social constructions, preferably those that involve less backstabbing and hypocrisy. T'Pring can sleep with Spock, and then divorce him. She doesn't have to keep her lovers' secret until the last minute. T'Pau doesn't have to keep Kirk in the dark about his impending fight to the death. T'Pau's goons don't need to hold knives at McCoy's throat. It's bad behavior that is somehow excused by and perpetuated by barbaric tradition.
          
          2) I did not state, imply, or presume, that Spock had a choice the matter. All of my criticism is leveled at the behavior of all other parties.
          
          3) T'Pring is murderous, and lawful provisions for such behavior does not change that. The only question that can be made is if Pon Farr was affecting T'Pring's rationality in addition to Spock. It is my interpretation that T'Pring was behaving has T'Pring, Stonn was behaving as Stonn, and T'Pau was behaving as T'Pau.
          
          4) I am not twisting ambiguities, I'm describing the only reasonable explanation. As I already pointed out, there was no time delay because Kirk talked to both Vulcan and Starfleet earlier in the Episode in realtime. If the belief is that Starfleet sat on T'Pau's message, that presumes that Starfleet is either inattentive to her wishes, or that they do not bend quickly to those wishes, which is contradicted by everything we know about her stature. Starfleet responded immediately to Kirk. Why would they wait around to respond to T'Pau when any request on this unspeakable subject is obviously urgent? The "little late" notation means that this was all done after the fact. Kirk had already disobeyed Starfleets orders. By making this request after Kirk had arrived at Vulcan, but before Kirk was due to arrive at his mission, T'Pau get's Kirk off of the hook. A very logical deception on her part.
          
          5) I do not believe that Vulcans are rational by nature. In fact, I said the opposite, that they are as petty as everyone else. My problem comes when every Vulcan in TOS behaved poorly on a wide range of issues, but they are given a pass out of "ancient tradition," weird rationalization, or even "just because." The worst thing about the Vulcans portrayal on Enterprise are some of the sloppy inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve, like whether or not Mind Melds are widely known in this time period, or why they are such weaklings. The political and personal behavior of the Vulcans we've seen on Enterprise is entirely consistent with their behavior on the other series, and they're the same smug, domineering, crosspatches that we all love. The difference is that in this time period, unlike being "the intellectual puppets of the Federation," as they are a century later, they are actually the superpower of the quadrant, with all the problems and contradictions that come with it.

          
          

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          • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
            By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:58:01 on Sep 18, 2004 | (1)

            Quote from TrekGuy 001:
            It shouldn't be officiated and conducted by ceremonies and rituals because ceremonies and rituals are by definition illogical.
            
            
            Honoring ancient ritual does not violate the rules of logic.
            
            Logic doesn't demand change for the sake of change.
            
            
            Quote:
            Those are social constructions, and as such, can be replaced with other social constructions, preferably those that involve less backstabbing and hypocrisy
            
            
            There was no backstabbing or hypocrisy in their following the lawful process for handling a biologically inevitable fight to the death.
            
            
            Quote:
            T'Pring can sleep with Spock, and then divorce him.
            
            
            That would be hypocrisy, and prostitution of the female who wishes to wed another.
            
            
            Quote:
            She doesn't have to keep her lovers' secret until the last minute.
            
            
            We have no reason to believe that T'Pring didn't call for the Kal-if-fee at the appropriate point in the Koon-ut-kal-if-fee process.
            
            
            Quote:
            It's bad behavior that is somehow excused by and perpetuated by barbaric tradition.
            
            
            There's no "somehow" about it -- by civilized Human standards, Vulcan barbarianism is "bad" behavior.
            
            Consider that our "nasty" bedroom behavior shouldn't be held to the same standard as conservative social behavior, even if it's seen as obscene by some extraterrestrial.
            
            Move along, delicate Human, if this offends you.
            
            
            Quote:
            T'Pring is murderous, and lawful provisions for such behavior does not change that.
            
            
            A blood fever that's resolved only by deadly combat is simply the natural (biological) way of things. Animals don't murder, for example, they abide by their instincts.
            
            
            Quote:
            As I already pointed out, there was no time delay because Kirk talked to both Vulcan and Starfleet earlier in the Episode in realtime. If the belief is that Starfleet sat on T'Pau's message, that presumes that Starfleet is either inattentive to her wishes, or that they do not bend quickly to those wishes, which is contradicted by everything we know about her stature.
            
            
            Kirk was denied a detour, by the local Starfleet official, when he refused to explain the situation.
            
            You cannot claim to know how quickly or slowly a Starfleet may "bend" to any particular circumstance, especially when interplanetary diplomacy may be involved. And your assertion about the "after the fact" timing is speculative.
            
            
            Quote:
            The worst thing about the Vulcans portrayal on Enterprise are some of the sloppy inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve, like whether or not Mind Melds are widely known in this time period, or why they are such weaklings.
            
            
            No, the worst thing is that T'Pol doesn't show the Vulcan psyche when her mental control is stripped away. Mentally and physically, she doesn't conform to the species archetype that would qualify her as a Vulcan.
            
            
            Quote:
            The political and personal behavior of the Vulcans we've seen on Enterprise is entirely consistent with their behavior on the other series, and they're the same smug, domineering, crosspatches that we all love.
            
            
            When interacting with other peaceful species, TOS Vulcans practice IDIC. ENT Vulcans have actively meddled in Earth's technological development.
            
            
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            • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
              By: TrekGuy 001 (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:27:17 on Sep 19, 2004

              1) Honoring a ancient ritual certainly violates the rules of logic if what they are doing is illogical. The ritual is there to support Spock's mating drive. You can't change biology, but you can change the ritual.
              
              2) T'Pring was not undergoing a "blood fever." She had complete control of her logic, and her logic was this: Put Kirk and Spock in a fight to the death. If Spock dies, Kirk will reject her, and she can go back to Stonn. If Kirk dies, Spock will reject her since she challenged him, he'd release her. Or if he didn't release her, Spock wouldn't be around anyway, so she can still sleep around with Stonn, and still get Spock's property. She made a choice, and her choice was for someone to die, so she could be with her lover and/or make off with Spock's loot (which includes his luut). Now that I think about it, I don't understand why she didn't just marry him, let him run back to Starfleet, keep his stuff, sleep with Stonn, and call it a day. Not as flawlessly logical as first thought.
              
              3) I claim to know how quickly Starfleet would bend to T'Pau's request, since T'Pau's request would certainly have come with the demand that they get there before Spock died. You'd have a situation with both T'Pau and Kirk requesting the same thing, saying that time was of the essence, and Starfleet would be sitting around for days pondering their decision, just so the Enterprise would have to back track to Vulcan, delaying their arrival to Altair even more. That makes no sense.
              
              4) Vulcans become irrational and combative with that control is stripped away, which fits with T'Pol's behavior. If you're saying that she didn't challenge anyone to a fight to the death, I'd respond that she did do a lot of mating which Trip says is just as good.
              
              5) IDIC is infinite diversity in infinite combinations, which can lead to a meadow of daisies on one side and a mushroom cloud on the other. Earth in Enterprise's time is about 100 years since a world war almost destroyed everything. They shook hands with a drunk, living in a shanty town, flying a warp powered nuclear missile (Doctor Strangelove eat your heart out!). It would be illogical and stupid to not try to reign in such a species based on 6000 years of human history.

              
              

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      • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
        By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:33:34 on Sep 18, 2004

        Quote:
        1) "Marriage rights" is a quaint euphamism, but when someone arranges a fight to the death between one person who has no choice, and another who doesn't know what he's getting into, that person is murderous, state sanctioned or not.
        
        You are transcribing human morals to an alien race.
        
        Quote:
        2) Stonn was certainly doing a lousy job of controlling his emotions. What was his excuse? Half human? Mind Control? Disease? Time travel? Under the influence? Nope, just "love."
        
        And like I said, many of us who criticize Enterprise do not deny the fact that Vulcans have emotions, only that they are held in check through meditation and discipline. Stonn was obviously emotionally involved in the issue.
        
        Quote:
        3) T'Pau tells Starfleet that she personally requested the Enterprise after the fact, just to get Kirk off of the hook (and no, it wasn't time delay, since the Enterprise was able to talk to both Starfleet and Vulcan in realtime earlier in the episode). She also doesn't find it relevant to tell Kirk that he is agreeing to a fight to the death, which is a lie of omission, not to mention cruel. Not that it's related to honesty, but two Vulcan goons sticking knives at McCoy's throat after he prostested this action isn't exactly an example of rational, peace loving Vulcans either.
        
        T'Pau did not retroactively say that she requested the Enterprise, she asked Starfleet to let Kirk off the hook based on these two links:
        
        link
        
        http://www.ericweisstein.com/fun/startrek/AmokTime.html
        
        So T'Pau did not lie. And again you are ascribing human morals to aliens. Spock invited these two outworlders to the party, it was up to him to point out the risks.
        
        And this is Pon Farr, man. There is nothing peace loving or pacifistic about it. It's all primal, savage, brutal. This is Vulcan logic stripped away.
        
        Quote:
        If Vulcan males have the biological necessity to Mate or Die (or not die as the reset button allows) that is one thing. But to maintain a ritual for these purposes where everyone involved throws away all decency makes no sense. What does make sense is that Vulcans are just as petty as anyone else and they just couch it in tradition, and "logical" doubletalk ("His next move should have been the Rook!" because it is apparently logical to play to lose). The only other episode to feature other Vulcans in TOS was Journey to Babel, and once again, you have two Vulcans behaving irrationally, with both Sarek and Spock refusing to talk to each other for decades after disagreeing over Spock's career choice. For a rational race, they certainly know how to hold a grudge.
        
        Again, no one said Vulcans are devoid of emotion. The ritual is a logical, rational way to best control the mating urge while at the same time protecting the rights of the female. There is also a telepathic aspect as well which has been largely ignored, as T'Pring and Spock are linked telepathically and it is either through death or a traumatic emotional event that could break it, such as Spock killing Kirk. T'Pau acted perfectly flawlessly, logically.
        
        As for Spock and Sarek; there seems to be one thing humans and Vulcans have in common, and that is fathers and sons not getting along. :) As Sark said in ST III: "My logic is flawed when it concerns my son."
        
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        • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
          By: TrekGuy 001 (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:49:35 on Sep 18, 2004

          In other words:
          1) It's OK for Vulcans to behave badly on TOS because of their "belief system," but they can't behave badly on Enterprise because that's bad writing. [And T'Pring was still murderous, regardless of her Vulcan belief system]
          
          2) It's OK for Vulcans emotions to run amuck on TOS, but it is not OK for Vulcan emotions to run amuck on Enterprise.
          
          3) It's OK to ascribe human morals to Vulcans when Enterprise is the subject, but it is not OK to ascribe human morals to Vulcans when TOS is the subject. [And T'Pau did lie to Starfleet. She requested the Enterprise be diverted to Vulcan *after* the ceremony had finished.]
          
          4) Outworlders are to be judged with contempt. Kirk's life is worthless. T'Pau is not responsible for the ceremony she is conducting, and anything that happens to Kirk is Spock's responsibility, since Spock did not predict and then explain the consequences to Kirk, even though Spock was out of his wits at the time.
          
          Look, the ritual itself is illogical and irrational, and that is evident from start to finish. There is no logical reason for T'Pau to withold information from Kirk that could directly lead to his death. There is no rational reason for the behavior of Spock to wear off on T'Pau and her goons. At least on one point logic was maintained, in that T'Pring actually behaved logically (as stated in the episode), except her goal was to eliminate Spock as a mate, by ruthlessly bringing about either his or Kirk's death. If Vulcans are looking for ways to get out of betrothal, I'd wager there is no logical reason for betrothal in the first place. They have socially connected ritual to a biological function, and are unwilling to disconnect them for the sake of tradition.
          
          People can defend this behavior until their green in the face, but it is no different than explaining why any Vulcans on Enterprise behave the way they do. They're stubborn and arrogant. They're domineering and bitter when proven wrong.

          
          

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          • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
            By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:05:08 on Sep 18, 2004

            Quote:
            1) It's OK for Vulcans to behave badly on TOS because of their "belief system," but they can't behave badly on Enterprise because that's bad writing. [And T'Pring was still murderous, regardless of her Vulcan belief system]
            
            The Vulcans were enacting a thousands year old ritual that was an inherent part of both their culture and the way they deal with their mating urges. Go ahead and call T'Pring murderous, it's obvious you are unable or incapable of understanding the episode or Vulcan culture as originally written by Theodore Sturgeon.
            
            This behavior was quite different from anything we've seen on Enterprise, taking place 1) on Vulcan and 2) it involved Pon Farr, where as I said their passions run high.
            
            Quote:
            2) It's OK for Vulcans emotions to run amuck on TOS, but it is not OK for Vulcan emotions to run amuck on Enterprise.
            
            No one was running amok except for Spock, who was in the grips of (wait for it) Pon Farr . Of course, T'Pol too ran amok only she was doing so all sweaty in her underwear, throwing herself at any man she could find. At least Spock only lusted for T'Pring, which I guess was a good thing from where T'Pau sat.
            
            Quote:
            3) It's OK to ascribe human morals to Vulcans when Enterprise is the subject, but it is not OK to ascribe human morals to Vulcans when TOS is the subject. [And T'Pau did lie to Starfleet. She requested the Enterprise be diverted to Vulcan *after* the ceremony had finished.]
            
            T'Pau did not lie to Starfleet, and it's obvious we're going to go back and forth on that issue. You want to remember the episode the way you want to even though I provided two web sites that describe the episode's end the way I described it. Go out and find a link that says otherwise.
            
            Quote:
            4) Outworlders are to be judged with contempt. Kirk's life is worthless. T'Pau is not responsible for the ceremony she is conducting, and anything that happens to Kirk is Spock's responsibility, since Spock did not predict and then explain the consequences to Kirk, even though Spock was out of his wits at the time.
            
            That pretty much sums it up, yes. Except for the fact that T'Pau did not know whether or not Spock explained things to Kirk and McCoy.
            
            Quote:
            Look, the ritual itself is illogical and irrational, and that is evident from start to finish. There is no logical reason for T'Pau to withold information from Kirk that could directly lead to his death. There is no rational reason for the behavior of Spock to wear off on T'Pau and her goons. At least on one point logic was maintained, in that T'Pring actually behaved logically (as stated in the episode), except her goal was to eliminate Spock as a mate, by ruthlessly bringing about either his or Kirk's death. If Vulcans are looking for ways to get out of betrothal, I'd wager there is no logical reason for betrothal in the first place. They have socially connected ritual to a biological function, and are unwilling to disconnect them for the sake of tradition.
            
            You really are missing the whole point of Pon Farr, which is inherently illogical. The ritual is there to attempt to maintain some control over savage emotions.
            
            And again, this is an alien culture that Theodore Sturgeon helped to flesh out, one that is steeped in tradition. A tradition that helps to serve a purpose, to control the raging emotions that lurk in every Vulcan. Ritual has a way of providing order, balance.
            
            Quote:
            People can defend this behavior until their green in the face, but it is no different than explaining why any Vulcans on Enterprise behave the way they do. They're stubborn and arrogant. They're domineering and bitter when proven wrong.
            
            The difference is exactly as TRexx explained it:
            
            Quote:
            When interacting with other peaceful species, TOS Vulcans practice IDIC. ENT Vulcans have actively meddled in Earth's technological development.
            
            And arrogance is the only emotion Enterprise Vulcans display. Oh, wait, I forgot that T'Pol often shows lust because B & B are adolescent boys that love to put Jolene Blalock into degrading scenes. At least Roddenberry and Coon were consistent in their portrayal of Vulcans. T'Pring did not show up in a mini skirt.
            
            I've watched other Vulcans from TOS up through TNG and there has never been the consistent level of condescending arrogance shown that Enterprise Vulcans display.
            
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            • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
              By: TrekGuy 001 (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:15:06 on Sep 19, 2004

              An addendum. There is one flaw to my "T'Pau calls Starfleet" scenario that is difficult to explain. I'll point it out if no one can spot it.

              
              

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            • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
              By: TrekGuy 001 (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:54:37 on Sep 19, 2004

              1) I am perfectly capable of understanding Vulcan culture as it is written, and it is this: Vulcans are place tradition over rationality and logic. I don't care how old a law or tradition is. It's a red herring in place of an argument. Lwaxana Troi might relate a story about a bird in a hat right here.
              
              2) T'Pring was a murderous golddigger, Stonn is a jealous lover, and T'Pau considers the lives of outworlders to be worthless, and she lies to Starfleet. Those are three people other than Spock whose behavior, if on Enterprise, would be inexcusible and fodder for irrate fans.
              
              3) You can cite all the websites you want. I have the episode, and I've watched the episode, and the way that the fandom brain trust would prefer to interpret it makes no sense. There was no time delay nor would Starfleet have delayed their decision. Starfleet calls Kirk with a "priority" message in the last act because T'Pau had just spoken with them.
              
              4) Yes, in this case their culture fosters such things that they usually find repugnant, and that excludes the behavior of the one person who wasn't in control of his actions.
              
              5) Vulcans display many emotions, including jealousy, anger, greed, and stubborness, and that is only from the two TOS episodes to feature Vulcans other than Spock, and that excludes Spock. And T'Pring's garb? This is what T'Pring wore in "Amok Time"
              http://members.aol.com/trekguy/tpring.jpg
              
              And please, if Blalock was a crewmember on TOS (a casting decision Roddenberry would have given three thumbs up to endorse), she would have worn a miniskirt in every episode since that was the STANDARD DUTY UNIFORM. "Insulting" is creating ditzy characters like Marla McGyvers who practically begs Khan to dominate her. If you want to see ridiculous outfits, watch "Who Mourns for Adonais" or "The Gamesters of Triskellion," or "The Enterprise Incident," or "The Elaan of Troyas" or any number of other episodes. Female wardrobe on Star Trek was dictated by the Theiss Theory of Titillation: arousal is directly proportional to the likelihood of the garment falling off. Star Trek has always been written for adolescents.
              
              I'm also not surprised that we've seen more arrogant Vulcans on Enterprise, since Enterprise has featured more (non-regular) Vulcans in consequential roles than all other series combined, and these Vulcans are in the dominent position.

              
              

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              • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
                By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:16:06 on Sep 20, 2004

                Quote:
                1) I am perfectly capable of understanding Vulcan culture as it is written, and it is this: Vulcans are place tradition over rationality and logic. I don't care how old a law or tradition is. It's a red herring in place of an argument. Lwaxana Troi might relate a story about a bird in a hat right here.
                
                Tradition helps to establish and reinforce logic, especially in situations involving chaotic events such as pon farr.
                
                Quote:
                2) T'Pring was a murderous golddigger, Stonn is a jealous lover, and T'Pau considers the lives of outworlders to be worthless, and she lies to Starfleet. Those are three people other than Spock whose behavior, if on Enterprise, would be inexcusible and fodder for irrate fans.
                
                And you've presented nothing new to support your assertions even though three different people have addressed this issue with both fact and opinion.
                
                Quote:
                3) You can cite all the websites you want. I have the episode, and I've watched the episode, and the way that the fandom brain trust would prefer to interpret it makes no sense. There was no time delay nor would Starfleet have delayed their decision. Starfleet calls Kirk with a "priority" message in the last act because T'Pau had just spoken with them.
                
                Then why not cite a quote to support your assertions?
                
                Quote:
                4) Yes, in this case their culture fosters such things that they usually find repugnant, and that excludes the behavior of the one person who wasn't in control of his actions.
                
                Foster: To promote the development or growth of. Vulcans do not "foster" Pon Farr, they suffer it. It is in part a consequence of suppressing their emotions.
                
                Next time you use a word make sure you understand it's meaning.
                
                Quote:
                5) Vulcans display many emotions, including jealousy, anger, greed, and stubborness, and that is only from the two TOS episodes to feature Vulcans other than Spock, and that excludes Spock. And T'Pring's garb? This is what T'Pring wore in "Amok Time"
                
                Like I said before, TOS fans do not object to Vulcans displaying emotions. Spock has displayed more than enough as had Stonn in Amok Time. What we object to in Enterprise is the single-theme use of the emotion of Arrogance over and over and over again.
                
                As for T'Pring's outfit; so what? What is your point? Do you even have a point?
                
                Quote:
                And please, if Blalock was a crewmember on TOS (a casting decision Roddenberry would have given three thumbs up to endorse), she would have worn a miniskirt in every episode since that was the STANDARD DUTY UNIFORM. "Insulting" is creating ditzy characters like Marla McGyvers who practically begs Khan to dominate her. If you want to see ridiculous outfits, watch "Who Mourns for Adonais" or "The Gamesters of Triskellion," or "The Enterprise Incident," or "The Elaan of Troyas" or any number of other episodes. Female wardrobe on Star Trek was dictated by the Theiss Theory of Titillation: arousal is directly proportional to the likelihood of the garment falling off. Star Trek has always been written for adolescents.
                
                The point there is those characters you mentioned weren't regular cast members. And mini skirts were in fashion back in the sixties so it was not nearly the big deal you seem to think it was.
                
                And if 'Trek was always written for adolescents then explain the staying power. Unless you are going to insult the entire board and call us all adolescents.
                
                Quote:
                I'm also not surprised that we've seen more arrogant Vulcans on Enterprise, since Enterprise has featured more (non-regular) Vulcans in consequential roles than all other series combined, and these Vulcans are in the dominent position.
                
                And you are simply excusing B & B's asanine decision to put a new spin on Vulcans, which has gone over so badly Manny Coto now feels a need to "fix" things with this Civil war arc.
                
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                • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
                  By: TrekGuy 001 (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:38:54 on Sep 21, 2004 | (1)

                  Quote:
                  Tradition helps to establish and reinforce logic, especially in situations involving chaotic events such as pon farr.
                  
                  And some traditions are maintained "just because."
                  Quote:
                  And you've presented nothing new to support your assertions even though three different people have addressed this issue with both fact and opinion.
                  
                  I present the evidence every time someone asks, and I will do so again. 1) T'Pring chose for Kirk and Spock to fight to the death. Without the reset button, someone was going to die as a direct result of her choice, which was a choice she did not have to make in order to achieve her goal of staying with Stonn and/or retaining Spock's name and property. 2) T'Pau did not bother to explain that Kirk was agreeing to a fight to the death, even though she took the time to explain other aspects. She therefore is not concerned with his life. She then called starfleet and requested that the enterprise divert to Vulcan after it was already there. 3) Stonn was clearly jealous.
                  
                  Quote:
                  Then why not cite a quote to support your assertions?
                  
                  This is the setup:
                  1) No time delay. 2) Any prior T'Pau's request would be based on a schedule of getting Spock to Vulcan before he dies 3) Starfleet eager to please T'Pau 4) Starfleet eager to get Kirk to Altair as soon as possible, so they would not delay, requiring the Enterprise to backtrack to Vulcan.
                  
                  Kirk, Spock and McCoy return to the Enterprise. Uhura calls Kirk with a priority message from Starfleet Command. "Response to T'Pau's request for diversion of Enterprise to planet Vulcan hereby approved. Any reasonable delay granted. Komack, Admiral, Starfleet Command." (the same Admiral Kirk talked to earlier). We know from above that this request wasn't made before hand. We know that T'Pau didn't request Kirk be shown leniency, since her request was for the diversion of the Enterprise.
                  
                  And since you are so concerned with what other people think, this is from T'Pau's entry on startrek.com:
                  "In 2267, T'Pau officiated over Spock's wedding ceremony that turned into a fiasco. She later saved Captain Kirk's career by telling Starfleet she requested his visit to Vulcan."
                  
                  Quote:
                  Foster: To promote the development or growth of. Vulcans do not "foster" Pon Farr, they suffer it. It is in part a consequence of suppressing their emotions.
                  
                  For the last time, I am separating Spock's biologically driven actions, with the behavior of those around him. They are fostering murder and greed by legally supporting T'Pring actions. They are fostering contempt for life by carelessly not telling Kirk what he is getting into. They are fostering needlessly violent behavior by shoving knives in the throats of others. They are fostering racism by constantly questioning Spock's Vulcanness. They do all of this under the guise of tradition.
                  
                  Quote:
                  Next time you use a word make sure you understand it's meaning.
                  
                  That's good advice that you should take.
                  
                  Quote:
                  Like I said before, TOS fans do not object to Vulcans displaying emotions. Spock has displayed more than enough as had Stonn in Amok Time. What we object to in Enterprise is the single-theme use of the emotion of Arrogance over and over and over again.
                  
                  So, is it "arrogant" for Spock to claim that a losing move is more logical than a winning move? Or is that a lie? Or does he actually believe it? If a ship of Vulcans explode, should their last thought be of failure or of "surprise?" Would you consider 20 years of bitterness over a career choice to be arrogant? Would angrily denouncing Kirk without knowing the facts of Spock's death be arrogant? Was Valeris arrogant? Was Spock arrogant to vouch for Kirk? When he admitted he was arrogant, was he arrogant? Do you consider the young Tuvok to be arrogant? Was the Vulcan ambassador in "The Forsaken" arrogant? Were the Vulcans in "Take me Out to the Holosuite" arrogant?
                  
                  No previously seen Vulcan has wielded the power that they currently do on Enterprise. They are sure they are right. They do not admit when they're wrong, and they behave as such.
                  
                  Quote:
                  As for T'Pring's outfit; so what? What is your point? Do you even have a point?
                  
                  You tell me the point. You brought up her outfit. It extends about a quarter of an inch below her crotch.
                  
                  Quote:
                  The point there is those characters you mentioned weren't regular cast members. And mini skirts were in fashion back in the sixties so it was not nearly the big deal you seem to think it was.
                  
                  You compared T'Pring's outfit to T'Pol's outfits. And lest we forget, T'Pol wear's form fitting catsuits, not dresses, mini-skirts or anything like that. I wasn't alive in the '60s but I do know that mini-skirts were certainly not considered formal wear. So, like I said, it's all for the benefit of adolescents.
                  
                  Quote:
                  'Trek was always written for adolescents then explain the staying power. Unless you are going to insult the entire board and call us all adolescents.
                  
                  Two reasons: Because adolescents grow up to remember it fondly, and because Star Trek tells relevent social stories that appeal to adults (in between insane romps like "Shore Leave" and "The Magnificent Ferengi"). The situation is somewhat the same with Star Wars. There will be plenty adults buying SW on DVD tomorrow even though it's a fairy tale with space battles.
                  
                  Quote:
                  And you are simply excusing B & B's asanine decision to put a new spin on Vulcans, which has gone over so badly Manny Coto now feels a need to "fix" things with this Civil war arc.
                  
                  Actually, I think the whole "Vulcans don't know about Mind Melds are" idea is stupid, and I'm holding out for a good explanation. However, the core role the Vulcans play on Enterprise is that that they 1) Do not trust infant races 2) That they are a super power with enemies and borders and 3) That they prosecute their policies with the same arrogance that we've seen over all series. That is the best part of Enterprise that I've seen so far, combined with the relationship with the Andorians, who are also simultaneously untrustworthy and honorable.

                  
                  

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                  • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
                    By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:11:28 on Sep 21, 2004

                    Look, I don't think we're going to convince either one is right on this issue, and maybe we're degenerating into a contest of who can get the last word in. I agree that pre-Enterprise Vulcans could be arrogant but that was not the only emotion they displayed. You yourself pointed out Stonn's jealousy.
                    
                    I think Sturgeon created a great script and did a wonderful job of creating this alien culture that shows the universe this logical, impassive face but beneath it is lurking this ugly beast they try to control through discipline and ritual. I'm sorry you take Amok Time and use it to view Vulcans in the worst possible light.
                    
                    And yes, you had to go and mention DS9's Take Me Out to The Holosuite, which is unfortunately canon. :( So it isn't just Enteprise era Vulcans who can be illogical assholes.
                    
                    Ah crap, here I go trying to get the last word in again. I was going to simply say let's agree to disagree and it turned into another long post...
                    
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                  • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
                    By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:00:31 on Sep 21, 2004

                    Quote:
                    And some traditions are maintained "just because."
                    
                    If you want to view it in the worst light possible, then that's your business. TRexx, Jad and I have all chimed in on this and you want to stick to your guns, then fine.
                    
                    Quote:
                    I present the evidence every time someone asks, and I will do so again. 1) T'Pring chose for Kirk and Spock to fight to the death. Without the reset button, someone was going to die as a direct result of her choice, which was a choice she did not have to make in order to achieve her goal of staying with Stonn and/or retaining Spock's name and property.
                    
                    T'Pring wanted out of her marriage, the only way to do that was through the challenge, which meant that someone was going to die. That would have been Spock or Stonn. When Kirk showed up she chose James T. because it worked out better for her. Stonn's life was no longer at risk. That is the way Vulcan culture works and she was operating within the framework of that culture.
                    
                    Quote:
                    2) T'Pau did not bother to explain that Kirk was agreeing to a fight to the death, even though she took the time to explain other aspects. She therefore is not concerned with his life.
                    
                    T'Pau was an impartial judge working within the framework of the ceremony. It was up to Kirk to ask the conditions of the challenge and Kirk was stupid for not doing so. Instead of getting on T'Pau for not informing Kirk, get on Kirk for not looking before he leapt.
                    
                    Quote:
                    She then called starfleet and requested that the enterprise divert to Vulcan after it was already there.
                    
                    And there you trip yourself up. If T'Pau did so the only reason would have been to save Kirk's career, yes? After all, Spock is screwed at that point and requesting Enterprise's presence after the fact only helps Kirk, who is, you know, dead.
                    
                    Unless T'Pau knew what McCoy was up to when he injected Kirk with the "tri-ox" compound.
                    
                    T'Pau, operating as an impartial observer, took McCoy's statement at face value and let him save Kirk's life. T'Pau is operating under restraints when Kirk accepts the challenge, and she operates under those same restraints when she lets McCoy save his life.
                    
                    If you have a problem with T'Pau's "dishonesty" then you haven't watched ST II, where Spock "exagerrates". The older Vulcans get, the better they can do that sort of thing.
                    
                    The objection many TOS fans have is the Vulcans seem to choose deception and violence over logic and pacifism.
                    
                    Quote:
                    3) Stonn was clearly jealous.
                    
                    That I never disputed. Again and again and again I state that Vulcans having emotions is not an issue, it's the one-dimension Vulcan arrogance of Enterprise that is.
                    
                    Quote:
                    "In 2267, T'Pau officiated over Spock's wedding ceremony that turned into a fiasco. She later saved Captain Kirk's career by telling Starfleet she requested his visit to Vulcan."
                    
                    Right, she saved Kirk's career, because she knew he was alive when McCoy beamed up with him. At no point was it even hinted that Uhura or anyone else phoned Vulcan to let them know that Kirk was alive.
                    
                    Remember what Kirk said, "How about that T'Pau," because he was impressed she figured it all out.
                    
                    Quote:
                    For the last time...
                    
                    Boy, I wish...
                    
                    Quote:
                    I am separating Spock's biologically driven actions, with the behavior of those around him. They are fostering murder and greed by legally supporting T'Pring actions.
                    
                    And like we (meaning me, Jad and TRexx) keep saying, this is the marriage custom. The only way out of it is through the challenge which will result in the death of the husband or champion.
                    
                    Quote:
                    They are fostering contempt for life by carelessly not telling Kirk what he is getting into.
                    
                    There was nothing "careless" about it. Kirk was brough by Spock, it was up to him to explain things. T'Pau is the judge, not the rules lawyer.
                    
                    Quote:
                    They are fostering needlessly violent behavior by shoving knives in the throats of others.
                    
                    That was just to keep McCoy at bay. I didn't see any blood spilled.
                    
                    Quote:
                    They are fostering racism by constantly questioning Spock's Vulcanness. They do all of this under the guise of tradition.
                    
                    If T'Pau was racist why did she let McCoy save Kirk's life? Why not let him die? If T'Pau is so dishonest why did she tell Kirk he could refuse the challenge?
                    
                    Quote:
                    So, is it "arrogant" for Spock to claim that a losing move is more logical than a winning move? Or is that a lie? Or does he actually believe it?
                    
                    Cite the scene, man. Tell me what episode you are talking about.
                    
                    Quote:
                    If a ship of Vulcans explode, should their last thought be of failure or of "surprise?"
                    
                    And your point...? Or do you not have one and you are simply padding the paragraph.
                    
                    Quote:
                    Would you consider 20 years of bitterness over a career choice to be arrogant?
                    
                    Again, cite the episode.
                    
                    Quote:
                    Would angrily denouncing Kirk without knowing the facts of Spock's death be arrogant?
                    
                    That is a father's anger over the death of his son. As I said concerning Sarek (and I'm beginning to think you don't really read what I post) Sarek's logic is always flawed where his son is concerned. He said so near the end of ST III.
                    
                    Quote:
                    Was Valeris arrogant?
                    
                    How so? She chose to interpret the data in a way that added up to the Klingons not being trustworthy. Spock said logic was the beginning of wisdom, not the end. And like Spock said, Valeris hadn't heard what he was saying that night.
                    
                    Quote:
                    Was Spock arrogant to vouch for Kirk?
                    
                    Yes, he was.
                    
                    Quote:
                    When he admitted he was arrogant, was he arrogant?
                    
                    You mean was he being arrogant when he was admitting he was arrogant? No, he was being contrite and honest.
                    
                    Quote:
                    Do you consider the young Tuvok to be arrogant?
                    
                    When? Again, cite episodes, man. There are two eps. where Tuvok is young. Man, you aren't very good at this.
                    
                    Quote:
                    Was the Vulcan ambassador in "The Forsaken" arrogant?
                    
                    Finally you mention an episode! No, I admit she wasn't. But they went out of their way to make her as unlike every other Vulcan shown on Enterprise, maybe in an attempt to over compensate.
                    
                    Quote:
                    Were the Vulcans in "Take me Out to the Holosuite" arrogant?
                    
                    And again you cite and epsiode! Good for you! That episode is horrible and I dearly wish it was not canon. Vulcans playing baseball was incredibly stupid.
                    
                    Quote:
                    No previously seen Vulcan has wielded the power that they currently do on Enterprise. They are sure they are right. They do not admit when they're wrong, and they behave as such.
                    
                    Right. Arrogantly.
                    
                    Quote:
                    You tell me the point. You brought up her outfit. It extends about a quarter of an inch below her crotch.
                    
                    That's an exagerration. But if it gets you hot then you go right ahead and dream about that.
                    
                    Quote:
                    You compared T'Pring's outfit to T'Pol's outfits.
                    
                    Right, and T'Pring's outfit is quite conservative compared to T'Pol's. Slippers instead of high heels, for example. Like high heels make sense on board a starship. Even the TOS womens boots were more functional.
                    
                    Quote:
                    And lest we forget, T'Pol wear's form fitting catsuits, not dresses, mini-skirts or anything like that. I wasn't alive in the '60s but I do know that mini-skirts were certainly not considered formal wear.
                    
                    And Kirk's uniform was? You see those boots?!
                    
                    Quote:
                    So, like I said, it's all for the benefit of adolescents.
                    
                    To some extent, yes. Sex sells, but TOS reserved the sexier outfits for the guest stars rather than parading one of their main characters around in a skimpy outfit. And at the time miniskirts weren't skimpy.
                    
                    You did not see Rodenberry resort to tactics like having Uhura or Chapel running around the corridors all sweaty in their underwear, now did you (The Enterprise episode Bounty. You see, I cited my source).
                    
                    Quote:
                    Two reasons: Because adolescents grow up to remember it fondly, and because Star Trek tells relevent social stories that appeal to adults (in between insane romps like "Shore Leave" and "The Magnificent Ferengi"). The situation is somewhat the same with Star Wars. There will be plenty adults buying SW on DVD tomorrow even though it's a fairy tale with space battles.
                    
                    That's over-simplifying the issue. Thirty years from now do you think Enterprise will still have the fan base TOS does? TOS is still fun to watch, while I cannot sit through an episode of Lost In Space. Some things have staying power through quality, while other things just suck. TOS has staying power, Enterprise doesn't.
                    
                    Quote:
                    Actually, I think the whole "Vulcans don't know about Mind Melds are" idea is stupid, and I'm holding out for a good explanation.
                    
                    Then why are you arguing with Jadzia over it in the other thread?
                    
                    Quote:
                    However, the core role the Vulcans play on Enterprise is that that they 1) Do not trust infant races 2) That they are a super power with enemies and borders and 3) That they prosecute their policies with the same arrogance that we've seen over all series. That is the best part of Enterprise that I've seen so far, combined with the relationship with the Andorians, who are also simultaneously untrustworthy and honorable.
                    
                    Then in regards to Enterprise Vulcans we'll just have to agree to disagree.
                    
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• RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
  By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:25:08 on Sep 16, 2004

  lighten up man...
  
  I have faith that he will do them justice. I would be worried if B&B were penning the eps, but their not. Coto has said that he will fix the damage, and by even attempting to use T'Pau's character (I know B&B wanted to use her too), he is showing us that he is at least familiar with TOS, and is going to use her in a brilliant way to "bridge" the two series.
  
  I know you used the word "may", but I wouldn't worry too much. S3 was mainly under B&B's direction, though they didn't write much of it. Coto has more leg room and is coming up with things to write, rather than things being given to him.
  
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  • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
    By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:54:43 on Sep 16, 2004 | (1)

    Quote from StarFleet Captain:
    I have faith that he will do them justice.
    
    
    Looking at his onscreen S3 scripts, not the aggressive S4 PR, there's no track record upon which to base a faith in Coto, especially when he only just recently changed his tune (he used to sing harmony in Berman's "We're all very pleased" choir). In fact, there's reason to believe Coto will continue B&B's degradation of the franchise.
    
    For example, ENT insiders have confirmed that T'Pol will join Starfleet in S4, yet she continues to wear her civilian catsuits. Executive officers (even illegal ones) must set an example of day-to-day protocol for the crew. By continuing B&B's Velour Vulcan, Coto discredits T'Pol's sense of self-discipline and leadership; and Coto makes a joke of Starfleet as a hierarchical authority which should require command officers to wear a regulation uniform while on duty.
    
    To hell with credibility: There's so much COOL stunt-casting and name-dropping to do, with so little time!
    
    
    
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    • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
      By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:07:07 on Sep 16, 2004

      The one possibility here, and we really have no onscreen record of these two either, is that in one of Coto's interviews, he mentioned that the Reeves-Stevens' would be involved in the Vulcan arc.
      
      Ie., here, Coto says in answer to Steve's question about Brennert and the Reeves-Stevens:
      
      "TW: Which scripts have these three written or will be writing?
      
      "MC: Judy and Gar haven’t written any yet, they probably will be writing one of the scripts on the Vulcan arc. Not probably, I’d say definitely going to write one of the scripts on the Vulcan arc, which we’re working on now. Alan has written episode two of the Soong arc “CS-12.”
      
      But of course we know what happens when "others" insert their edits in there. It is usually very obvious. ;-)
      
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      "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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      "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

      
      

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      • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:33:48 on Sep 16, 2004

        Quote from Jadzia-Dax:
        The one possibility here, and we really have no onscreen record of these two either, is that in one of Coto's interviews, he mentioned that the Reeves-Stevens' would be involved in the Vulcan arc.
        
        
        I have my fingers and toes crossed that Reeves-Stevens submissions won't be hacked beyond recognition.
        
        This is separate from the issue raised by T'Pol as a Starfleet XO who isn't required to wear a regulation uniform while on duty. She remains a joke. Starfleet is made more of a joke. Coto isn't serious about credible sci-fi storytelling. SNAFU for ENT.
        
        
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        • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
          By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:53:38 on Sep 17, 2004

          Quote:
          This is separate from the issue raised by T'Pol as a Starfleet XO who isn't required to wear a regulation uniform while on duty. She remains a joke.
          
          No more so than Troi on TNG. And keep in mind that counselors are supposed to be in full uniform too, as clearly pointed out by Jellico in "Chain of Command". She didn't follow the dress code until the last year-and -a-half of the show.
          
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        • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
          By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:55:17 on Sep 17, 2004

          Quote:
          This is separate from the issue raised by T'Pol as a Starfleet XO who isn't required to wear a regulation uniform while on duty. She remains a joke. Starfleet is made more of a joke. Coto isn't serious about credible sci-fi storytelling. SNAFU for ENT.
          
          No offense, but if you know anything about the way STAR TREK is made, you know that this is most certainly NOT Coto's call. It's Rick Berman's, plain and simple. Your criticism of Coto for not speaking against various things in S3 belies the fact that this is the real world and people who want to make a contribution can't publicly humiliate their bosses and hope to have any chance to have a positive influence. The fact that Coto is now unleashing the desires of many of the staff to go in different creative directions is all the proof we need that Coto has a different take on the show than Rick does.
          
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          It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
          
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          • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
            By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:51:50 on Sep 17, 2004

            Quote from Steve Krutzler:
            No offense, but if you know anything about the way STAR TREK is made, you know that this is most certainly NOT Coto's call. It's Rick Berman's, plain and simple. Your criticism of Coto for not speaking against various things in S3 belies the fact that this is the real world and people who want to make a contribution can't publicly humiliate their bosses and hope to have any chance to have a positive influence.
            
            
            I'm pretty sure it is Berman's call, which is why there may not be a huge difference between "B&B" and "B&B^C" at the onscreen level (hence the potential disaster from special attention given to Vulcans). I doubt there's much of Coto's PR hype that isn't authorized by a desperate Berman. Coto is just King Flea on the B&B dog, yet if he struts with showrunner grandeur I'll shoulder him with the points of gross failure.
            
            Either ENT becomes credible, or it remains a joke. Coto as a half-assed frontrunner amounts to a scapegoat for B&B.
            
            
            Quote:
            The fact that Coto is now unleashing the desires of many of the staff to go in different creative directions is all the proof we need that Coto has a different take on the show than Rick does.
            
            
            I'm not sure of exactly what you might mean, but stunts aren't "different creative directions" for ENT staff.
            
            
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            • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
              By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 02:01:13 on Sep 17, 2004

              I really don't know what "stunts" you're talking about considering the season hasn't even started. But you don't seem to understand. In TV, the show runner is the head writer. That means he runs the writers' room. He takes charge of the script and story creation process and manages the writing staff to accomplish that. In some cases, the head writer has a lot of producing power. In ST, Rick Berman has the power. It's a matter of choosing your battles. With Ira Behr, Ira had worked with Rick for years and had Michael Piller's blessing, so he had more leeway, but Coto is still relatively a new kid on the block so you can't sit here and blame him for aspects of the show that he may have no control over because Berman is the one in charge of things like costumes, not to mention the network's desire to have Blalock look sexy each week. The Coto-bashing is uncalled for. Now, if Coto writes a new nude T'Pol scene with her getting her freak on, then the criticism might be justified.
              
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              It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
              
              Halen. "The Dream is Over."

              
              

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              • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
                By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:22:19 on Sep 17, 2004 | (1)

                Quote from Steve Krutzler:
                I really don't know what "stunts" you're talking about considering the season hasn't even started.
                
                
                I'm referring to the "Vulcan 9½ Weeks", Borg, etc., stunts and gags that have been going on for three seasons.
                
                
                Quote:
                ...but Coto is still relatively a new kid on the block so you can't sit here and blame him for aspects of the show that he may have no control over because Berman is the one in charge of things like costumes, not to mention the network's desire to have Blalock look sexy each week.
                
                
                Essentially you're making my point, except I'm not giving Coto any "new kid on the block" soft soap. ENT is approaching the eleventh hour of a sink or swim situation. Paramount has assigned Coto as either a full-fledged Executive Producer or as the Chief Pencil Boy.
                
                And Roddenberry understood that he could give the network executive penises their T&A quota by using alien babes of the week, not by disgracing a lead female character.
                
                
                Quote:
                The Coto-bashing is uncalled for. Now, if Coto writes a new nude T'Pol scene with her getting her freak on, then the criticism might be justified.
                
                
                I wasn't aware that each writer should get a "one free nude scene" allowance. ;-)
                
                Coto's misuse of T'Pol went beyond the butt-crack in Harbinger.
                
                
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                • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
                  By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:12:40 on Sep 17, 2004

                  Well then you're in for a disappointment because Paramount isn't taking Rick and Brannon off the show they created unless they want to. Despite your pessimism (and unfair criticism of Coto's season three work, which undoubtedly underwent rewrites from Rick and Brannon just like everybody else), the fact that there is a new writer heading up the writers room who has been very vocal about taking the show in a different direction represents a significant change. If you're never going to be happy unless Rick Berman, your personal enemy #1, is fired, then you're probably going to hate STAR TREK for another ten years because I don't think Rick is going anywhere.
                  
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                  It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
                  
                  Halen. "The Dream is Over."

                  
                  

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                  • RE: Pop goes the Vulcans! | Report this post to moderator
                    By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:15:35 on Sep 17, 2004

                    Quote from Steve Krutzler:
                    Despite your pessimism (and unfair criticism of Coto's season three work, which undoubtedly underwent rewrites from Rick and Brannon just like everybody else), the fact that there is a new writer heading up the writers room who has been very vocal about taking the show in a different direction represents a significant change.
                    
                    
                    Berman didn't rewrite Coto's comments in interviews. I tagged Coto as a Berman Mini-Me back in February, because Coto's interviews echoed Berman's enthusiasm for the exploitation of Blalock's character. It's possible that Coto was just saying what Berman wanted to hear, which would be the kind of brown-nosing that helps earn promotions from an egotistical executive.
                    
                    Coto changed his tune just in time for UPN President Dawn Ostroff to announce an "aggressive" pursuit of stunts for S4. Without having shown any Star Trek savvy in S3, Coto suddenly claims ENT will be a show for Trek fans by Trek fans. He's been blowing TOS kisses ever since.
                    
                    When Coto and his writing team enlist T'Pol in Starfleet, but fail to put her in a regulation uniform, we'll know that Berman's Burlesque is still the order of business for ENT.
                    
                    
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Vulcan Reformation | Report this post to moderator
By: Gary P (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:24:23 on Sep 16, 2004

It would be great if the Vulcan Reformists actually talk like Spock and make assertions based on 'logic'. If you really listen to Spock's dialogue (or, dare I say, Tuvok's), it will remind you of how his character was written with tremendous care, unlike some present vulcans that we know.

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• RE: Vulcan Reformation | Report this post to moderator
  By: GoodDogPorthos (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:46:55 on Sep 16, 2004

  Am I the only one who can't read the news articles anymore since the pop-ups were installed?
  
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  • RE: Vulcan Reformation | Report this post to moderator
    By: muad'dib (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:21:00 on Sep 16, 2004

    Nope, I have emailed Steve K. about that as I myself cannot get the articles because of the pop ups either... I actually just found out though, that if you go to the "email this to a friend" link, it will show up past the fields to fill out for sending a link....
    
    muad'dib
    (Hey, I still lurk.... never said I wasn't going to still visit!)

    
    

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    • RE: Vulcan Reformation | Report this post to moderator
      By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:36:58 on Sep 16, 2004

      I think what we've got here is the IE peekaboo bug. This is a problem with IE wherein it will make text disappear due to other items on the page being floated left or right. I thought I had found a fix for this bug and coded it into the CSS but apparently sometimes it is still showing up. I would recommend for starters that whenever this happens, you try resizing your browser window to different sizes, as this sometimes triggers the bug to show the text.
      
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      It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
      
      Halen. "The Dream is Over."

      
      

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  • RE: Vulcan Reformation | Report this post to moderator
    By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:20:06 on Sep 16, 2004 | (1)

    If you are referring to the intermercial, you simply need click the "Skip Ad" button in the upper right-hand corner to go from the ad to the article.
    
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    It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
    
    Halen. "The Dream is Over."

    
    

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    • A Historical Moment | Report this post to moderator
      By: Jean-Luc (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:26:39 on Sep 16, 2004

      I remember first hearing the term "chill out" back in '83 and now I'll try to remember the first time I read the term "intermercial". "Infomercial" snuck in sometime in the 90's I think.
      
      I guess I wouldn't mind the intermercial as much if I didn't also have the standard pop-up come along with it when I get to the page I was trying to get to.
      
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      • RE: A Historical Moment | Report this post to moderator
        By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:28:29 on Sep 16, 2004

        The intermercial is freq capped at once/hour. The pop also has a cap. So if you just got here, that may explain it. But considering the site is 100% free, I don't think it's so much to ask people to view some ads.
        
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        It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
        
        Halen. "The Dream is Over."

        
        

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        • RE: A Historical Moment | Report this post to moderator
          By: dx31701 (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 22:02:53 on Sep 16, 2004 | (1)

          Does that mean you shouldn't see it more than one click per hour? I see it everytime I click to move to a new page - even when I change views, say from threaded to nested, I get the THX ad.
          
          Addendum via edit: Or maybe not. I did see the THX IM 3 times before reading this message (in just a couple of minutes) including when I changed talkback views. But I haven't seen it again on this visit.
          
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        • RE: A Historical Moment | Report this post to moderator
          By: Merlinus Ambrosius (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:55:05 on Sep 16, 2004

          So am I stealing the site by viewing it with Firefox, which gets rid of the pop-ups?
          
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        • RE: A Historical Moment | Report this post to moderator
          By: Gary P (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:06:55 on Sep 16, 2004

          Could we please get back to the Reformation?

          
          

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