If they want to use ideas from the TOS, they need to look at maybe a precursor to the Return of the Archons, Where no man has gone before, or A piece of the action. I am very interested to see the shows on the Eugenics Wars. I wish they could base those particular episodes on the two books that were written about Khan. Oh well
This is the final indignity for the franchise. Butchering what's left of good ideas from TOS. First, Vulcans are totally mischaracterized. Now totally blatant violations of canon.
It's a sad ending. It's like watching a great champion die slowly while getting the crap pounded out of them by minor league boxers.
--------
psp1
The Gorn are cool even if its a green guy in a rubber outfit. I don't care if it violates continuity, I like cannon's being blasted at point-blank range and arms getting grown back.
Its a dinosaur in a loincloth with a bad temper. That idea should not lie around untouched. Its a pretty neat TOS episode (not great mind you, but cool) so they should try to show them off again with some better FX.
Screw continuity, I want bloodthirsty sentient angry dinosaurs that keep on truckin after getting shot at point blank range.
Its like the Terminator... with dinosaurs.
Seriously, how is that a bad idea?
--------
An elephant never forgets . . .TO KILL!
It's not surprising that Brannon Braga likes the Gorn idea, it's not in keeping with a logical flow of events as relates to the STAR TREK universe, and he's clueless.
Honestly, why does it have to be the Gorn? There are so many other species that would make better sense to feature on ENT, such as Sigma Iotians, but better yet... why don't they just work with the aliens they've created for ENT so far. We've seen the inclusion of Nausicaans, I think it's viable that they exist in Archer's time & neck of the woods, they ought to be used again as appropriate. Season four would have been a better time to attempt an appearance of the Ferengi, but if the story were as stupid as the one they ran earlier in the series, it wouldn't have done any good. What amazes me is that it has taken this long to even get any talk of Orions appearing on ENT to surface.
And let's not forget, before any Romulan wars occur, there's this small matter of the Klingon wars, but of course, there's this little matter of the Temporal CLOD War to deal with as far as repurcussions go.
In my opinion, the stories on ENT shouldn't worry too much about namedropping aliens that have previously appeared on the various STAR TREK series, they need to work within the context of what ENT has established so far. Have the Kreetasans suddenly stopped existing? The Xyrillians? And how about a mysterious encounter with some aliens that look remarkably similar to the Greys that purportedly are still being held prisoner in area 51?
Good STAR TREK is more than simply pulling old ideas out of the vault and propping them up, there must be a real story and a reason for the events taking place at all.
Also, they need to stop inventing new aliens and simply use the ones that we all know in creative ways, which of course means that they'll have to do their homework. The Gorn is not a viable qualifier regardless of how interesting the story is. Outer space is so vast and it is unlikely that the NX-01 would have run into the huge numbers of different aliens that they have given their limited range. At this point in the timeline, there should be a handful of different alien species that they would have encountered, even local space is rather vast. The NX-01 has only W5 capabillity and I doubt that it would realistically go beyond the radius which is in part defined by what eventually becomes The Neutral Zone.
The Gorn are fair game for a series that takes place AFTER TOS, not before.
--------
"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here."
I get the feeling that this interview was conducted long before Manny Coto started to outline his vision for S4. The fact the synopsis above doesn't mention Coto suggests the Goodman interview might have predated Coto's appointment as show runner. So I don't put much stock in it.
I have to say I'm surprised that Goodman, a member of the TrekBBS and therefore privy to a lot of the basher vs. gusher rage of the past couple years, could come up with an idea like this. Aside from the fact that the original Gorn were terrible (the story was classic, but the lizard men I could live without), I just don't see it working. I don't believe Arena was the first contact with the Gorn, however, as I think both Spock and Kirk were familiar with the race. I haven't seen the episode in years so I may be wrong.
Alex
-
Quote:
I don't believe Arena was the first contact with the Gorn, however, as I think both Spock and Kirk were familiar with the race. I haven't seen the episode in years so I may be wrong.
In the episode, once the Metrons have taken control of both the 1701 and the Gorn ship and removed both Captains to a place that they prepared for them, there is a monologue by Kirk that notes:
"I face the creature the Metrons called a 'Gorn'. Large... Reptilian."
Thus he's never heard of them before.
I think my point here has been (sortof using your post as a place to comment... ;-)), aside from the fact that this probably won't happen anyway, is that ENT can't just do "name-dropping" without doing a little research behind those names that get "dropped".
There was an earlier name-dropping interview with Coto, et al... ie., "Colonel Green" and his potential appearance during ENT's time. If some plot device time-travel had occurred or if Green had been shown in historical flashback, then fine. But like the Gorn, there needs to be a some research behind who was where, when, and for what reason (was it a 23rd century "first contact"? Was it a visit for a trading agreement or establishing or checking in on a colony?) before actually crafting stories with them during ENT's time.
This is why I have what I have as the 2nd part of my .sig that was from a comment that tomba1701 had made that was an illustration of name-dropping gone mad. ;-)
Sussman has been successfully able to find some folks who were mentioned in TOS but never shown and who had been suggested to have been "known" for some time and not part of a Kirk first-contact situation (eg., the name mention in TOS "The Changeling" of the "Mallurians", who were never shown in the ep, but whose planet was the 1701's destination for a routine check-in, where the crew ends up discovering that something - later confirmed as the mechanical entity named "Nomad" - had killed everyone and everything on the planet).
--------
"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
Quote from David A. Goodman:
"I spent a lot of time last year developing a Gorn episode because I thought that given what you can do with today's effects - if you think 'Arena', [Kirk] hits him with a diamond fired from a cannon, and he's just a little groggy. I mean, this is a great monster."
The Gorn were not encountered by Starfleet prior to Arena, and that's the way it should remain. Goodman sought to exploit the Gorn name and a "cool" monster. Apparently the creative well had run dry and he was too lazy to research a more plausible species.
How did Berman manage to find a group of writers that are all barren of creativity in the same way? "Let's bring in the Ferengi, the Borg, and the Gorn, but no one will find out who they are to record their criminal activities for future reference -- it'll be COOL!" It's bad enough that NX-01 is made to look like a ship of fools; TPTB shouldn't be looking to defile Kirk and crew.
It's this type of nonsense that makes some people petition to have ENT cancelled. The longer it stays on the air, producing new episodes, the more opportunity ENT has to sully other series and characters.
--------------
Alien vs Predator Action Figures
David Goodman posted the following update (to this CFQ article) a few weeks ago on another bbs (link):
-------------------------------
I didn't get too far with it, to tell you the truth. Towards the end of season two, Brannon said he was open to a Gorn idea. The Gorn had a comparable technology to Earth, so an individual could have made it into Enterprise's neck of the woods. I was concerned about canon, to the extent that I didn't want it to step on "Arena." But, I thought, why does every individual of every species we meet have to tell us everything about them? If this Gorn didn't give a sh-t about Enterprise and it's crew, would he fill them in and immediatley open peace talks? That's the superficial character trait I started with, and began developing an "Assault on Precinct 13" story. The story I developed had some superficial similarities to what became "Impulse", but I couldn't crack it to Brannon's satisfaction (or mine) and the season ended.
Why do a Gorn story? I love seeing TOS aliens done with modern production values, and it would've been fun to see what the effects guys could do with a Gorn. Before one of you screams "I knew it! All they wanted to do was break continuity! See? They hate us! They hate us!" remember, KIRK FIRED A DIAMOND OUT OF A CANNON (not "canon" a CANNON!) FROM TEN FEET AWAY, and the Gorn captain WAS STILL CONSCIOUS! Gene Coon built an incredible monster. So there was A LOT of abilities we could give them that would've been consistent with what we had already seen, and we could've developed a character that might have filled in the picture of what kind of race the Gorns are. And, if he didn't give a crap about us, he never would get around to saying "By the way, my people call themselve the Gorn. Did you get that? GORN. G-O-R-N. Don't forget it. We own most of the space around Cestus. Write that down. Cestus, C-E... what? No one has a pen? Well, someone remember, please, I wouldn't want some misunderstanding. So stop by and see us, we're friendly. Just remember to call ahead."
But in the end, there wasn't a good enough story to justify it.
The decks were cleared for "The Xindi" in season three, so the Gorn story disappeared, although as I said some elements ended up being used in "Impulse." I don't know if Rick, Brannon and Manny have any plans to use the Gorn, since I'm not there anymore, which some of you may consider to be the more important point...
--------
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
-
Quote:
And, if he didn't give a crap about us, he never would get around to saying "By the way, my people call themselve the Gorn. Did you get that? GORN. G-O-R-N. Don't forget it. We own most of the space around Cestus. Write that down. Cestus, C-E... what? No one has a pen? Well, someone remember, please, I wouldn't want some misunderstanding. So stop by and see us, we're friendly. Just remember to call ahead."
Wow. No wonder why we have Archer and crew continually looking idiotic in ENT. Sigh...
I think I know the problem here and it has to do with not desiring to develop a species over the long term.
These are episodic, standalone writers and rather than have someone on board actually sit down and take a couple of the TOS species known to be around in ENT's time and/or who were recently introduced and create a bible for them to write against and then let things go from there, they have attempted to do the "cool" factor, inserting them in willy nilly.
I mean, Okuda has written a whole encyclopedia brimming with names of species, including where and when (and in what context) they appeared.
There is Rigel II, which apparently has clubs on it per McCoy's "illusion" in TOS "Shore Leave".
There is Rigel IV, which is populated by Humanoids and that plays a factor in a string of murders that stretch from Earth to Argellius, since the Jack the Ripper days on Earth.
There is Rigel V, which has a presumably Vulcanoid species, mentioned in TOS "Journey to Babel" as possible blood donors for Sarek.
There is Rigel VII, home of the native "Kaylar", who attacked Pike and his crew when they attempted to enter a seemingly abandoned fortress but who were apparently known about to a degree because Kirk mentions a song called "Moon over Rigel VII" in TFF before they agree to "Row, Row, Row Your Boat". ;-)
There is Rigel XII, which has dilithium mines per TOS "Mudd's Women".
I mean, ENT has been to Rigel X and if any place that is critical to discovery in this time period, it is the Rigel System and all its myriad of planets.
If anything, TOS "The Doomsday Machine" had a Captain go stark raving mad and eventually commit suicide trying to keep the planet-eater from entering where? Right. The densely-populated Rigel System. And apparently, THAT is where the Orions hung out and is believed to be (although not explictly mentioned in the canon) where the Orion Homeworld is.
--------
"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
-
Quote:
And, if he didn't give a crap about us, he never would get around to saying "By the way, my people call themselve the Gorn. Did you get that? GORN. G-O-R-N. Don't forget it. We own most of the space around Cestus. Write that down. Cestus, C-E... what? No one has a pen? Well, someone remember, please, I wouldn't want some misunderstanding. So stop by and see us, we're friendly. Just remember to call ahead."
I think this is absolutely right. As long as it concerns a single survivor or something from a lost ship (for example). With the Ferengi, you knew they'd continue expanding, so it's strange they would need 300 years to come back. But other races that are more private and less exploratory don't have to. Certainly if that drifting ship was a non-military craft or something.
Quote:"And what about the appearances of alien races familiarized by the Original Series in the upcoming fourth season ? "That's something we all want to do and it's certainly a strong possibility," Goodman says. "I spent a lot of time last year developing a Gorn episode because I thought that given what you can do with today's effects - if you think 'Arena', [Kirk] hits him with a diamond fired from a cannon, and he's just a little groggy. I mean, this is a great monster. Given what you can do with CGI and limbs that can grow back, I spend a lot of time developing this Gorn story that Brannon liked, but we didn't have time to do it. So I may dust that off. And of course it's important to establish that they never call it a Gorn and you're never going to know that this is what is encountered later."
Please NO Gorn! That is something of TOS.
From above:
The latest issue of Cinefantastique magazine, just out in the US, features an exclusive interview with ENTERPRISE third season writer and consulting producer David A. Goodman.
Goodman just posted yesterday on TrekBBS and it seems that he is no longer with the show. Ie., from the context of his post, it doesn't seem like he will be a Consulting Producer on ENT either.
I know print mags are generally done from 1 - 3 months in advance so this might be a recent development that happened after that interview.
--------
"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
-
Jadiza, I'm very curious of what you think of the idea of a possible Gorn episode in Enterprise. It sounds like it would be just like Acquisition and Regeneration, but only with a TOS alien.
--------
"Take a Romulan chill pill and have some faith!"
-Erik Jendresen, writer of Star Trek: The Beginning
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-General George S. Patton Jr.
"I am NOT Scorned."
-Scorned as Gage/Gage_2
-
Quote:
Jadiza, I'm very curious of what you think of the idea of a possible Gorn episode in Enterprise. It sounds like it would be just like Acquisition and Regeneration, but only with a TOS alien.
No Gorn. In TOS "Arena" that appeared to be a first contact situation.
This ship has to be restricted to species "in the neighborhood" and that "neighborhood" is certainly not as vast as that when one has a warp 9+ engine. ;-) One of the hopes of many fans was to flesh out some of those aliens who were well known and spoken about (and sometimes seen) in TOS, not unlike how Cardassians and Ferengi were fleshed out in DS9 after being introduced in TNG.
What needs to be done is to take a look at aliens that TOS didn't make a first contact with, but who they mention and/or interact with as if they had been around for some time. We know as a minimum that includes Vulcans, Klingons, Andorians, Tellarites, Orions and can include any variety of Rigellians, as that system has a number of planets and different species.
For example, in TOS there has been mention of:
Argelians (TOS "Wolf in the Fold")
Capellans (TOS "Friday's Child")
Catuallans (TOS "The Way to Eden")
Denebians (TOS "I, Mudd")
Elasians (TOS "Elaan of Troyius")
Iotian (TOS "A Piece of the Action")
Mallurian (TOS "The Changeling", ENT "Civilization")
Omegans (TOS "The Omega Glory")
Troyian (TOS "Elaan of Troyius")
who may be folks who are nearby or who were engaged in hostilities back in ENT's time.
--------
"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
-
"Arena" was definitely a first contact episode. After encountering the Borg and a few Ferengi and never getting their names I think it strains ENT's remaining credibility if they encounter yet ANOTHER species of the "future" and never learn their identity.
If they end up making a Gorn ep anyway, then I think it should be like the movie "Enemy Mine". One Gorn (minus a universal translator) and one ENT crewmember (not necessarily Archer)...aah never mind. They already did one like that with Trip on the hot planet.
Bad idea. Leave the Gorn alone.
--------
"Outer Space: The Last Frontier.
These are the trips of the Star Trek Enterprise. Its five year plan calls for us to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly fly where no man has gone in space. Live long, and be happy."
Patrick Stewart--SNL, Stardate 9402.05
-
Well personally, I think the Gorn on Enterprise is more believable than the Ferengi and the Borg cause there is only a 100-year seperation between the possible Enterprise episode and "Arena". Plus, Gorn space is established as very far away on the outskirts of 23rd Century Federation Space. So if a lone Gorn craft travels very far from Gorn space and encounters Enterprise or something like that it would be a lone incident and Humans won't officially encounter the Gorn until they enter Gorn space in 2267.
--------
"Take a Romulan chill pill and have some faith!"
-Erik Jendresen, writer of Star Trek: The Beginning
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-General George S. Patton Jr.
"I am NOT Scorned."
-Scorned as Gage/Gage_2
-
like I said, how many species, even if it's just one or a few at a time, are we going to run into and credibly not learn who they are? Plus there would be comparisons to "Arena" or ENT's "Dawn" from S2.
--------
"Outer Space: The Last Frontier.
These are the trips of the Star Trek Enterprise. Its five year plan calls for us to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly fly where no man has gone in space. Live long, and be happy."
Patrick Stewart--SNL, Stardate 9402.05
This interview must have been done a fair while ago, as David Goodman has since left the staff of ENT to re-join Family Guy. He confirms this over on trekbbs where he is a regular poster.
With that in mind, I doubt much of what he is said here will come to fruition.
nd we're trying to figure out a way to make the upcoming year as challenging or more challenging than we did this year.
Read as, "aw man, how we gonna fix all this sh!t!"
Can't think of a better alien to bring back! Great thinking!
(1)
| 
