100!! | Report this post to moderator
By: Meglo (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:34:20 on Sep 13, 2004

One hundred, baby!!!





Yep...




Ok, move along, move along

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When was this interview conducted? | Report this post to moderator
By: ety3 (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:06:40 on Sep 13, 2004

I'm wondering when she actually said these things because it seems to me -- from everything we've been reading -- that Manny Coto will be addressing the "Vulcan Issue" this season.

Is it possible she said these things before the Vulcan Reformation trilogy episodes were announced?

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Words to reflect on | Report this post to moderator
By: Lost_In_Time (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:16:33 on Sep 12, 2004

Don't be a playa hater!.....

...hate the game, not the player

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• RE: Words to reflect on | Report this post to moderator
  By: Meglo (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:55:24 on Sep 12, 2004

  I guess I do feel a little bad about insulting her intelligence, so true dat.
  
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Regarding her past comments | Report this post to moderator
By: SirTrekker (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:07:48 on Sep 12, 2004

I hope those who have been pointing out to the rest of us the Zap2it article from October 2003 have actually read it. If so, they'd see her comments from there aren't nearly the same as what she's been saying recently. Case in point, from the aforementioned article...

Quote:
The goal is to find the mysterious Xindi, an alien race that staged a preemptive strike on Earth in the season-two finale, killing millions.

"Yay, for one thing," Blalock says of the show's new mission. "It's always fun to have more action, more story line, more reason for doing what we're doing. The characters, especially Scott Bakula's character, Capt. Archer, are going to be more driven."

Season three also meant a makeover for Blalock, who spent the first two seasons with her blond hair tucked under a short, dark wig and her hourglass figure poured into a drab, high-necked cat suit. The wig is longer and lighter, and the cat suits now come in brighter colors and have plunging necklines -- but aren't any easier to wear.

"The blue one is the least comfortable," she says, "because it's not a stretchy material. It doesn't have a lot of give. Once you're strapped in, you're strapped in."

During filming, Blalock usually has her back zipper undone. "That's just so I can use the restroom without having to ask permission," she says.

Because, in the future, women would certainly choose to wear skintight cat suits. "Yes, of course," Blalock says with a laugh. "The liberated woman, at least. It's just the male viewers. It's the boys."

While earlier seasons hinted at sexual tension between the emotionally controlled T'Pol and the easygoing Archer, producers have shifted that focus to T'Pol and Enterprise's chief engineer, southerner "Trip" Tucker (Connor Trinneer) -- as evidenced by the topless (if discreet) mutual-massage scene in the season premiere.

Blalock laughs at the thought. "They write it, I do it. I don't see it, personally. T'Pol's a Vulcan -- how could she have a relationship? And he's so emotional. My goodness, he's like a nut case. So how are this nut case and this person who has her stuff together going to find common ground? Maybe that's the basis.

"We'll find out, because I'm not sure how that's going to evolve."

So, other than her comments about the outfits, and her amusement over the idea of the Trip/T'Pol pair-up, I certainly did not see in that article the degree of negativity or objection I saw in the recent Cinefantastique interview. Yes, she does seem to question the logic of Trip and T'Pol as a couple, but before that, in practically the same breath, she says "They write it, I do it". She speaks about the Trip/T'Pol thing a great deal more strongly here , in the Sci-Fi Channel interview she did in late July 2004...

Quote:
Last season, T'Pol found herself losing control of her emotions and eventually hooking up with crewmate Trip Tucker (Connor Trinneer)—a story arc Blalock confessed she wasn't crazy about. Would she like to see that relationship continue into the new season? "I don't know what to think about that," she admitted. "I think it's absolutely ridiculous that some catfish-eating honky-tonk guy would be appealing to this serene character, personally, but, you know, maybe there's something in the difference. ... It depends on the writing. It depends on how it evolves. It can't just be, 'Hey, buddy, let's go do it.' Like, what is that?"

But, see, by the time this article was posted, she was already on her current bandwagon, so I'm still not sold on the idea that she's spoken out so vehemently on this before these past couple of months.

And, you know what? If it bothered her that much before, she damn well should've spoken up! Why would she want to act against what she personally believes in for her character? What actor would put up with that, other than one so desperate to stay on the payroll and in some sort of spotlight that she'd compromise her principles? If she valued the character of T'Pol and the portrayal of the Vulcan race as much as she claims, she should've been more willing to raise her objections a lot sooner, when the fan outcry about it was beginning to increase in volume.

It's easy for her to speak out *now*, because the disappointment is WAY out in the open, moreso even than it was at the beginning of season 3. So, I stick by my belief that all of this is empty patronization. The only way her comments will gain value is if they're followed up on by the writers. Manny Coto seems to be interested in doing this, but I'll believe it all when I see it.

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• RE: Regarding her past comments | Report this post to moderator
  By: Plaid Ninja (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:47:11 on Sep 13, 2004

  Quote:
  I certainly did not see in that article the degree of negativity or objection I saw in the recent Cinefantastique interview. Yes, she does seem to question the logic of Trip and T'Pol as a couple, but before that, in practically the same breath, she says "They write it, I do it"
  
  Quote:
  If it bothered her that much before, she damn well should've spoken up! Why would she want to act against what she personally believes in for her character? What actor would put up with that, other than one so desperate to stay on the payroll and in some sort of spotlight that she'd compromise her principles? If she valued the character of T'Pol and the portrayal of the Vulcan race as much as she claims, she should've been more willing to raise her objections a lot sooner, when the fan outcry about it was beginning to increase in volume.
  
  Please don't be offended by I think this argument is crap. Her initial comments were at a time where the concept was pretty good in theory and nobody had a clue as to the horrific crap that would become T'Pol's supposed character development. Once it became clear that she was going to be turned into an intergalactic crack addict and was going to fall for a character she has nothing in common with, she knew she was in for a long hard struggle to have her character maintain some dignity. She is CONSTANTLY played up for sex appeal. How many times have the previews made it seem like Jolene was going to get naked? Seriously, the girl needs to be given some respectable work.
  
  Its easy to speak out now... right. No, its the only thing she can do to speak out now. Maybe it didn't bother her before because she had no idea of the ridiculousnes involved here. I definitely don't agree that the only way her comments will gain value is if its followed up by the writers. When have the writers ever acknowleged the criticism about Enterprise? Does that de-value the criticism? Or does it show how stubborn the writers really are?

  
  

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  • RE: Regarding her past comments | Report this post to moderator
    By: SirTrekker (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:24:28 on Sep 13, 2004

    Don't worry, I'm not offended, even though I still, for the most part, disagree with you. I have a little trouble believing that she had NO idea whatsoever of her character's path this past season. Surely she had to have SOME idea of what was to take place. I'll buy the possibility that the severity of T'Pol's situation may not have been revealed to her right away at the beginning of season 3, but as the scripts came in and she was made more aware of what was going on, one would think that if she disagreed so much with it, she'd speak up about it. True, she might not have been able to change the outcome, but at least it'd be well-known that she was doing it under protest.
    
    See, I'm not having a problem with the fact that she's offended by what happened to T'Pol. Good for her; she should be offended. But, the timing of her comments are just too uncanny, regardless of what she's said in the past.
    
    When have the writers ever acknowledged the criticism about Enterprise? Well, I'd say that they're making a genuine effort now, after they've seen how close they came to losing their jobs at the end of last season. I'd like to believe they received some sort of wake-up call. What they produce as a result may not please everybody, but they're definately making some moves to rectify things. If Jolene's comments don't inspire them to redeem T'Pol in some way, then it's as if her protestations have fallen on deaf ears.
    
    Well, that's all I'm gonna say on this subject. Back to the exile!

    
    

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when did she say this? | Report this post to moderator
By: MikeNinNH (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:43:02 on Sep 12, 2004

As in other interviews, I ask: when did she do this interview? Was it before Coto was brought aboard to deal with issues like these? If so, then you need to remember that when reading this. If not, then she's not satisfied with the new eps either - which could mean either they're badly done, or she's wrong - we'll find out after the shows air.



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"I'm a locksmith, and... I'm a locksmith".
- "Police Squad"

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Inconsitencies Not Exclusive to T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
By: Burkins (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:37:27 on Sep 11, 2004 | (1)

I get the strong feeling that Jolene is trying to rescue her own image and reputation with these all-too-public comments criticizing Enterprise, whether it be the writing or the show's chances for survival. Sorry, but it smacks too much of egoism and very little of team play.

I'm sure that given Jolene's popularity with the fans and importance to the show she could easily raise these issues and her concerns about her character with the writers - where it will do the most good. IMO that's the most direct way to solve the problem.

Spouting a bunch of criticisms in genre magazines that do nothing to burnish the already shaky reputation of the show with the fans seems very much like a self-serving ploy to try to restore her reputation.

The real issuse here, IMHO, is that inconsistent characterization has been the crux of Brannon Braga's weakness as a writer on this series.

For heaven sake, facets of Archer's character were changed willy nilly from week to week in the first two seasons, depending on what the plot demanded. Even Phlox was not immune from the characterization serves plot syndrome from time to time.

It is only with Mike Sussman's episodes in the second season and then Coto's influence in the third that we began to get a clear, consistent picture of who Archer was.

I have every confidence that with Sussman and Coto handling more of the writing duties, characterization will improve across the board. Now admittedly, I haven't read the entire interview, but I just don't like Ms. Blalock sounding so much to the press as if she has lost faith in the series.


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"Make just a ripple. Come on be brave. This time a ripple - next time a wave."

"I lost something out there... and I don't know how to get it back" Archer in "Home"

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• RE: Inconsitencies Not Exclusive to T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
  By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:00:36 on Sep 12, 2004

  Quote from Burkins:
  Spouting a bunch of criticisms in genre magazines that do nothing to burnish the already shaky reputation of the show with the fans seems very much like a self-serving ploy to try to restore her reputation.
  
  
  You make that sound like a bad thing. It isn't, when Blalock is as correct today -- on behalf of Star Trek -- as she was a year ago when she first voiced complaints about T'Pol's extreme misdirection in S3.
  
  You're in a position to make a strong argument for Scott Bakula, but you're not in a position to make an argument for what made Star Trek great.
  
  
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  • RE: Inconsitencies Not Exclusive to T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
    By: Burkins (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:47:14 on Sep 12, 2004 | (1)

    My My My... we're in a really argumentative mode tonight, aren't we TRexx!
    
    Basic Psychology and/or Conflict Resolution 101:
    
    Never assume you know what another person's motivations are. Never begin discussions with you statements.
    
    Excuse me, but HOW IN THE HELL would you know what I'm in a position to do or not do? I watched every episode of TOS when it first aired and was intrigued and inspired by Spock and Leonard Nimoy's acting.
    
    So I'm in the same position Ms. Blalock is who, like me, watched TOS and had a passing acquaintance with but never really got into the other series until Enterprise.
    
    Go pick a fight elswhere.
    
    --------
    
    "Make just a ripple. Come on be brave. This time a ripple - next time a wave."
    
    "I lost something out there... and I don't know how to get it back" Archer in "Home"

    
    

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    • RE: Inconsitencies Not Exclusive to T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
      By: Timo (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:48:34 on Sep 12, 2004

      Quote:
      Never assume you know what another person's motivations are.
      
      I'm sorry, but isn't that exactly what everybody has been doing here, assuming to know Ms. Blalock's motivations?

      
      

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    • RE: Inconsitencies Not Exclusive to T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
      By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:01:45 on Sep 12, 2004

      Quote from Burkins:
      I watched every episode of TOS when it first aired and was intrigued and inspired by Spock and Leonard Nimoy's acting.
      
      
      That is a common and specious posture. It says nothing about what you understand of what you've seen. Many gushers don't have a clue about the Vulcan archetype.
      
      And you assign Blalock's motive to self-serving, so you fail your own assumptions "101" test.
      
      
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      • RE: Inconsitencies Not Exclusive to T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
        By: Burkins (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:37:33 on Sep 12, 2004

        This finer point of communication technique will likely be lost on you but my post states that these are the feelings I get by reading Blalock's interviews. Nowhere do I state that they absolutely ARE her motives for voicing her criticisms.
        
        I don't believe (note that this implies it is my opinion) it helps the situation to couch responses to interveiw questions in such negative terms as Ms. Blalock has done. There is such a thing as responsibility to the rest of the cast and crew for denigrating a show on which one has a position of influence - a show which is in need of positive press right at the moment.
        
        Other characters besides T'Pol have suffered from inconsistent writing, but I don't see other actors saying these kinds of things in the press.
        
        You on the other hand, TRexx, flat out state that I have No basis to speak about Star Trek, then go on to say that I don't have the capacity to enderstand what I've seen in the episodes of TOS. Those represent two entirely different methods of communication - polar opposite ones in fact - and you bloody well know it.
        
        --------
        
        "Make just a ripple. Come on be brave. This time a ripple - next time a wave."
        
        "I lost something out there... and I don't know how to get it back" Archer in "Home"

        
        

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        • RE: Inconsitencies Not Exclusive to T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
          By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:16:16 on Sep 12, 2004

          Quote from Burkins:
          You on the other hand, TRexx, flat out state that I have No basis to speak about Star Trek, then go on to say that I don't have the capacity to enderstand what I've seen in the episodes of TOS. Those represent two entirely different methods of communication - polar opposite ones in fact - and you bloody well know it.
          
          
          What you should know by now is that it shouldn't be necessary for everyone to punctuate every comment with "IMO". Get over yourself.
          
          Seems you're trying to softsoap the goal of your post, where you accuse Blalock of pernicious "spouting". Where was your propaganda machine when Bakula cast mocking aspersion upon studio executives on national TV (the Wayne Brady show)? Was he being a team player?
          
          
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          • RE: Inconsitencies Not Exclusive to T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
            By: Burkins (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:48:05 on Sep 13, 2004

            re: the Wayne Brady comments...You're reaching, TRexx.
            
            Bakula was trying to get the UPN execs to promote the show. I'd say that was definitely being a team player, and he was almost certainly echoing the sentiments of Berman, Braga and Gary Hart.
            
            you're obviously trying to goad me into more of your pissing contests. Not biting, big guy. Get over yourself.
            I'm outta here. Buh bye
            
            --------
            
            "Make just a ripple. Come on be brave. This time a ripple - next time a wave."
            
            "I lost something out there... and I don't know how to get it back" Archer in "Home"

            
            

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            • RE: Inconsitencies Not Exclusive to T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
              By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:11:42 on Sep 13, 2004 | (1)

              Quote from Burkins:
              Bakula was trying to get the UPN execs to promote the show.
              
              
              Bakula deliberately used public embarrassment against people who could give him what he wanted.
              
              Blalock may be doing likewise, and also for the benefit of the show.
              
              
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Cool down | Report this post to moderator
By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:37:45 on Sep 11, 2004

As Timo points out from this article from last October, this is not the first time Blalock has voiced publicly dissatisfaction with her character's writing. Also, all of the people jumping to the conclusion that she has never spoken up are not considering the possibility that she may have been doing just that internally for years, but only now feels compelled to discuss it publicly. Give the woman a break. Ironically, Scorned's entire first paragraph of rant essentially criticizes her for making the same criticisms he's been making for years, and then he tells her to quit if she's so unhappy. Gee, kind of like how Scorned could quit watching the show if he is so unhappy.

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It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!

Halen. "The Dream is Over."

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• RE: I am cool. This is nothing to get hot about. | Report this post to moderator
  By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:31:38 on Sep 12, 2004

  Quote:" As Timo points out from this article from last October, this is not the first time Blalock has voiced publicly dissatisfaction with her character's writing."
  
  Ok that is true. But what is with the sudden unhappiness? There are ways of getting your point across. If you are part of the cast hoping to improve your character. Going around doing interviews bashing the show and writers is not going to solve her problem. Coto is not B&B so her anger should be directed at those two.
  
  
  Quote:"Also, all of the people jumping to the conclusion that she has never spoken up are not considering the possibility that she may have been doing just that internally for years, but only now feels compelled to discuss it publicly.
  
  That might be true but her timing is questionable. On the eve of a new season (which it barely didn't get renewed) with a new show runner who promises to tie in ENT to the rest of Trek, some new proven Trek writers (Garfield) and the upcoming appearance of Spiner and Shatner. The episode of Shatner I definitely plan on watching! I think her timing is off.
  
  
  Quote:" Ironically, Scorned's entire first paragraph of rant essentially criticizes her for making the same criticisms he's been making for years, and then he tells her to quit if she's so unhappy. Gee, kind of like how Scorned could quit watching the show if he is so unhappy.
  
  I am not the bad guy here. For a period there I was NOT watching ENT but I did keep tabs on it with the faint hopes that it might get better. So I did put my money where my mouth is. Unfortunately they dragged the Xindi arc for so long it bored the hell out of everyone. Dragging it out for so long then quickly wrapping it up and giving us the Nazis???
  
  Yes, Jolene does repeat what I (and others mind you) have been saying for a while now. My comments to her with this new sudden "unhappiness" is that she if she feels that the character is now a joke. Then she should approach B&B at the time and now Coto and say "I am a joke here". When her 3 year contract was up she could either renew or not. If she renewed she should of had it understood that the T'Pol character will NOT be portrayed as an "anorexic crack whore" anymore. If she is worried about her career than maybe leaving ENT was the right thing to do. Yes Jolene is entitled to her opinion but her timing is not the best. Her sudden unhappiness is questionable. After 3 years she now unhappy? I could understand after the first 2 seasons of bad ratings and horrible scripts that she is not happy. Are we going to hear Avery Brooks say that for all the 7 years he did DS9 he hated going to work everyday?
  
  So I think everyone is getting a little to sensitive here because I am no way upset or need to cool down after what she has said. However I am not the bad here.
  

  
  

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• Ban Scorned. | Report this post to moderator
  By: motionblur (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:17:03 on Sep 12, 2004

  He's just here to cause trouble anyways. He's like the Rothtards over at VHLinks. Just attention whores. I'd grab the MAC address of his router (assuming there is a router) and his IP address and block them.

  
  

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  • RE: Ban motionblur | Report this post to moderator
    By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:03:12 on Sep 12, 2004 | (1)

    Quote:" He's just here to cause trouble anyways. He's like the Rothtards over at VHLinks. Just attention whores. "
    
    Everything that she said I already said months before. So I can't possible be an attention whore you moron. You are just upset that one of the cast member is practically agreeing with me. By the way maybe you should go look around and do some more reading. I have not been the only one who has said the very things that Jolene has. So if you got some "chip on shoulder" against me then say it to my face instead of being a little coward.
    
    
    Quote:Just attention whores."
    
    oh yes just like you were a few months ago??
    
    Quote:"Scorned is probably 15 or younger. ;-) | Report this post to moderator
    By: motionblur (Odo's file, contact, block) @ 19:15:51 on Jul 13, 2004
    
    Scorned is probably 15 or younger. ;-)"
    
    Are you going to suggest I am 15 years again? I am again embarassed for you.
    
    
    Quote:" I'd grab the MAC address of his router (assuming there is a router) and his IP address and block them."
    
    Why don't you do us all a favour and just block me? Don't read anything I post. There is unfortunately no gun to head forcing you too. If you lived near me I would be happy to go over to your house and do it for you. Just to let you know your little block wouldn't negate the fact that Jolene just agreed with everything I said months ago. So go live in denial! Don't start picking a fight with me. You won't win.

    
    

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• RE: Cool down | Report this post to moderator
  By: steveleenow (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 01:52:28 on Sep 12, 2004

  I agree. And this is not the first time we've had actors come out and criticize. A number of Voyager actors have complained when they were on their show, and even noted that some of their complaints fell on deaf ears. Beltran was one of the most vocal; Picardo was also if I remember correctly. I see nothing wrong with it. These are smart actors who just want to see the best product possible. All the more power to them! Especially when it concerns Trek - something that should always be top quality, thought provoking, consistent and entertaining.
  
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  - Steve Lee
  http://www.steveleenow.net/

  
  

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• RE: Cool down | Report this post to moderator
  By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:41:06 on Sep 11, 2004 | (1)

  Quote from Steve Krutzler:
  As Timo points out from this article from last October, this is not the first time Blalock has voiced publicly dissatisfaction with her character's writing
  
  
  Yoiks. Both you and Timo use the same invalid link. The TrekWeb article in question refers to the October 2003 Zap2It article that I first mention in my post here.
  
  
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  • RE: Cool down | Report this post to moderator
    By: Timo (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:05:26 on Sep 12, 2004

    Simply remove the "/" at the end of the link and it'll work.

    
    

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    • RE: Cool down | Report this post to moderator
      By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:20:21 on Sep 12, 2004

      Quote from Timo:
      Simply remove the "/" at the end of the link and it'll work.
      
      
      Is pointing out that manual adjustment easier than fixing the link in your post?
      
      
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Frustrated and seeking attention. | Report this post to moderator
By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:44:01 on Sep 11, 2004

I have no problem with Jolene giving constructive criticism and her words makes sense. I'm just wondering why the public has to hear it. It's first and foremost the writers who needs to take her thoughts into consideration. My guess is they don't listen to her (or that's what she thinks) and she has lost her faith in the shows ability to survive. She is voicing her frustration now, and I can accept that (as long as it stays constructive). It may even help the cause provided the writers will look out for fan reaction and realize, she is right. (If the fans could agree on something for a change.)

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Right on | Report this post to moderator
By: Daniel Shock (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:45:10 on Sep 11, 2004

She's exactly right.

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Wonder if Braga will call her a continuity pornographer? | Report this post to moderator
By: dx31701 (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 12:07:57 on Sep 11, 2004

Ohhh..she said that the Vulcan characterization is inconsistent both in relation to TOS and within Enterprise.

Will Braga (and some locals) call her a continuity pornographer, as they do fans who hold the same points of view?

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"Now the Senate is looking for moderate judges, mainstream judges. What in the world is a moderate interpretation of a constitutional text? Halfway between what it says and what we'd like it to say?" - Justice Scalia

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• RE: Wonder if Braga will call her a continuity pornographer? | Report this post to moderator
  By: Cylykon (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:39:11 on Sep 11, 2004

  One day, I hope to call Braga a "Treknobabble pedophile" to his face and see how he likes it.

  
  

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• RE: Wonder if Braga will call her a continuity pornographer? | Report this post to moderator
  By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:58:27 on Sep 11, 2004 | (1)

  Quote:continuity pornographer
  
  Only an asshole like Braga would come up with such a saying. Maybe if Braga had done his job instead of being an incompetent jerk we wouldn't of had this problem.
  
  The very fact that he says this little expression to the fans only shows how much an arrogrant jerk he really is. A man with an over inflated ego. If he left Trek today he would fall off the face of the planet because he is a hack.
  
  
  

  
  

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  • RE: Wonder if Braga will call her a continuity pornographer? | Report this post to moderator
    By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:47:16 on Sep 11, 2004

    Quote:
    The very fact that he says this little expression to the fans only shows how much an arrogrant jerk he really is. A man with an over inflated ego. If he left Trek today he would fall off the face of the planet because he is a hack.
    
    Just as you are, with the way you speak.
    
    Quote:
    Only an ** like Braga would come up with such a saying
    
    I don't like that word either but he merely picked it up from the fans.

    
    

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    • RE: Wonder if Braga will call her a continuity pornographer? | Report this post to moderator
      By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:42:02 on Sep 12, 2004

      Quote:Just as you are, with the way you speak."
      
      Are you kidding me? Your comment is nonsense. So my comment is incorrect? It is always important to insult the fans? You are just upset that I have said some hard truths about Trek and those behind the camera. You don't like the fact that I pointed out this about your beloved Braga. If might surprise you that I am not the only one who has said things like this. So maybe you should grow up a bit.
      
      
      Quote:"I don't like that word either but he merely picked it up from the fans."
      
      He picked it up and used it against the fans.
      
      
      So if your favourite band were on stage and they said "We think you people are idiots for paying to see us. You over paid for tickets and we think you are complete and utter morons".
      
      Plan on seeing that band again??????????
      
      Some of us would leave the arena and NEVER support that band again. But again there are people like you that wouldn't.
      
      
      
      
      

      
      

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      • RE: Wonder if Braga will call her a continuity pornographer? | Report this post to moderator
        By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:57:35 on Sep 12, 2004

        Quote:
        Some of us would leave the arena and NEVER support that band again. But again there are people like you that wouldn't.
        
        I would have a good laugh and assume a thick irony. :-)
        
        Quote:
        You don't like the fact that I pointed out this about your beloved Braga
        
        Some people will arm themselves to the teeth in order to bite their opponent. You know very well that you bite B&B when you deliver your messages. I was referring to this method of communicating. I want to achieve mutual understanding and respect between producers and fans so I voice my attempts to understand their troubles. In my experience this will increase their interest in what I have to say. It will get me more attention than shouting.
        
        I do realise, you are not trying to get their attention, you are simply trying to get rid of them. You made up your mind long ago. You think they are the devils, but you may overlook the fact that, far worse people could be in charge. Of all the 6 billion people in this world, how many of them would you entrust with the Star Trek franchine?
        
        Have you heard of the recent german production that claims to have roots in Trek? It's a big, bad joke, a very bad joke, but people with little knowledge will go and see the movie and assume some resemblence with Trek. There really is none. The movie is called "Traumshiff Enterprise" and I'm angry with it.
        
        B&B's Trek have some weaknesses and some strengths (as would be the case with anyone running the show). Overall it may not be able to compete with certain other products in terms of characterisation, nor will it satisfy everyones expectations (specifically fans expectation) and they may never give you the kind of Trek that you want. I try to imagine what it must be like, to be so unsatisfied with ENT as you are.
        
        But you can rejoice. They have a reduced role in the production of ENT now so lets excersise some self-control and see what a combined effort from Coto and the new writing team will do for the show.
        
        I still don't think B&B are the devils. I have enjoyed most of the Trek we've been offered over the years. That is why I'm a fan. I have never been so intrigued and happy with anything on TV (athough I was about to loose all interest in VOY) I think highly of the concepts of Trek. Concepts that are found nowhere else.

        
        

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        • RE: Wonder if Braga will call her a continuity pornographer? | Report this post to moderator
          By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:19:34 on Sep 12, 2004

          Quote:"I would have a good laugh and assume a thick irony. :-)"
          
          In other words you would just sit there and take it like a dope. I wouldn't call it a thick irony. I would call it your thick skull because you fail to see the point. My point is that some people don't respect the fans that have made them rich and famous. It is very clear Braga could walk up to you and call you a f'ing moron to your face and you would just sit there like a dummy and smile and probably ask for an autograph. Have a little respect for yourself.
          
          
          Quote:"Some people will arm themselves to the teeth in order to bite their opponent. You know very well that you bite B&B when you deliver your messages. I was referring to this method of communicating.
          
          What does this have to do with anything? I clearly commented on the fact that I think Braga is a jerk for saying something like to the fans of the show. You are the one who is picking a fight with me. Am I wrong in assuming that he is a jerk and is showing disrespect to the fans who have remembered his work and the work of others? They are just too lazy to remember their own crap and get upset when a fan of the show does remember THEIR work over them. So again am I wrong? If so how?
          
          
          Quote:"I want to achieve mutual understanding and respect between producers and fans so I voice my attempts to understand their troubles. In my experience this will increase their interest in what I have to say. It will get me more attention than shouting."
          
          And just who exactly do you think you are? You accuse me of having an ego when in fact yours completely overshadows mine in spades with such a response. Don't accuse me of being arrogant when you make such a comment like the one you said. It makes you a hypocrite. If you think that someone like Braga is going to respect you when he makes comments like that to fans along with Bermans shots at fans then you are not only sadly mistake but live in a fantasy world. I was not yelling and I have not shown in the previous response that I was doing so. It is your over sensitivity that has lead you to that conclusion.
          
          
          Quote:"I do realise, you are not trying to get their attention, you are simply trying to get rid of them. You made up your mind long ago.
          
          Do not sit there and patronize me with your arrogance. "made up my mind long ago". It doesn't take a genius to see that Trek has taken a clear nose dive these past 10 years. The decision to get rid of Berman and Braga was a choice that should of been done YEARS ago. After the failure of Nemesis and the horrible ratings for ENT it was clear that if anyone had a brain at Paramount they would of given Berman and his girlfriend the BOOT!
          
          
          Quote:"You think they are the devils, but you may overlook the fact that, far worse people could be in charge. Of all the 6 billion people in this world, how many of them would you entrust with the Star Trek franchine?"
          
          I am sorry to have to tell you this but I am in no means going to pick the lesser of two evils when it comes to these two. I will not sit there and watch more of or support more of Berman and Braga shitty Trek only because "there could be far worse people in charge". So that makes it all better? Sorry buddy but NO Trek is far better than LOUSY Trek. I can survive if there is no Star Trek on television for a few years or a there is a few years in between movies. It is clear you can't. You know there are other programs on tv and other movies out there. It is clear you don't read a damn thing I write because I have already stated several times people who I think would benefit Trek with the removal of the two warts known as B&B from Trek.
          
          
          Quote:"Have you heard of the recent german production that claims to have roots in Trek? It's a big, bad joke, a very bad joke, but people with little knowledge will go and see the movie and assume some resemblence with Trek. There really is none. The movie is called "Traumshiff Enterprise" and I'm angry with it.
          
          No I have not and nor do I care. Stop trying to get off topic.
          
          
          Quote:"B&B's Trek have some weaknesses and some strengths (as would be the case with anyone running the show). Overall it may not be able to compete with certain other products in terms of characterisation, nor will it satisfy everyones expectations (specifically fans expectation) and they may never give you the kind of Trek that you want. I try to imagine what it must be like, to be so unsatisfied with ENT as you are.
          
          Again you may put your arrogance on low. Do you honestly think I am the only person who thinks that ENT has been a failure from the start? Do you actually read anything that other people on this board? The fact remains that you can't please everyone. But B&B don't care and with comments like "continuity pornographer" clearly shows that they don't care about no one. But you fail to see that because you have your "I love Braga rosy glasses on" to realize that you have been insulted. You are seen as another dumb Trek who will swallow anything with the word Trek on it by the man who love so much.
          
          
          Quote:"But you can rejoice. They have a reduced role in the production of ENT now so lets excersise some self-control and see what a combined effort from Coto and the new writing team will do for the show.
          
          I am happy that B&B are reduced. However I will only rejoice when the two of them are GONE from Trek PERMANENTLY! The fact that Berman is involved in another Trek movie despite having 2 BOMB under his belt only tells me to expect "STRIKE 3" for the next movie. A prequel movie to boot. How bad is this monster going to be. hahaha No thanks! Don't plan on wasting 2 hrs of my time and $12 bucks seeing another piece of shit Berman film. With some dumb suit with no experience and the dude who made the Inspector Gadget movies. If you can't see this train wreck coming you clearly need to get some glasses. "Go go gadget sheilds...." hahaha
          
          By the way have you noticed that NO ONE is sad that B&B have a reduced role? Gee I wonder why that is?
          
          
          Quote:"I still don't think B&B are the devils. I have enjoyed most of the Trek we've been offered over the years.
          
          That is because you have low standards in entertainment.
          
          
          Quote:"That is why I'm a fan.
          
          No if you were a fan you would of realized that you are seen as a mindless dumb Trek fan by the man you love. If you were a real fan you would of wanted B&B heads on a platter like the rest of us years ago! So I would not call you a fan one bit!
          
          
          Quote:"I have never been so intrigued and happy with anything on TV (athough I was about to loose all interest in VOY) I think highly of the concepts of Trek. Concepts that are found nowhere else.
          
          If you think the concepts of ENT are new? Then you clearly never watch TOS, TNG and DS9. They ripped off a whole bunch of them last season. And if you think that episodes based on a "sick dog" are interesting you need to get your head examined.

          
          

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          • RE: Wonder if Braga will call her a continuity pornographer? | Report this post to moderator
            By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:26:53 on Sep 13, 2004

            Quote:
            Do not sit there and patronize me with your arrogance. "made up my mind long ago". It doesn't take a genius to see that Trek has taken a clear nose dive these past 10 years. The decision to get rid of Berman and Braga was a choice that should of been done YEARS ago. After the failure of Nemesis and the horrible ratings for ENT it was clear that if anyone had a brain at Paramount they would of given Berman and his girlfriend the BOOT!
            
            And don't forget the mediocrity of both Generations and Insurrection. First Contact was okay but it could have been better.
            
            So really in my book if you compare the TOS films with the TNG films Berman has pretty much blown it. 1 for four is not so hot.
            
            Quote:
            ...NO Trek is far better than LOUSY Trek.
            
            Amen, brother! Couldn't agree with you more.
            
            Quote:
            "Go go gadget sheilds...."
            
            LOL! Yeah, it amazes me that this guy keeps getting these assignments. Insurrection did not do that well, Nemesis bombed, Enterprise's ratings have fallen. Do they fire him? No, they give him another movie! Berman must have incriminating photos of someone sodomizing a dog or something to keep getting work like tis.
            
            Quote:
            If you think the concepts of ENT are new? Then you clearly never watch TOS, TNG and DS9. They ripped off a whole bunch of them last season. And if you think that episodes based on a "sick dog" are interesting you need to get your head examined.
            
            And B & B may be ripping off from other people as well. The Voyager episode Work Force had the same plot as an episode of Stargate SG1 that was shown earlier that year in that the Stargate team were brainwashed into thinking they were someone else and enslaved to work in a factory. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.
            
            --------
            
            "Oh, I'll wake up
            To any sound of engines,
            Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
            
            Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep

            
            

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          • RE: Wonder if Braga will call her a continuity pornographer? | Report this post to moderator
            By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:36:31 on Sep 13, 2004 | (1)

            This whole "continuity pornographer" issue has gone too far. Nobody used that word about anyone recently except Steve Krutzler on his T-shirt merchandise. It's long ago Braga used that word to describe what he considers the extremists of Trek fandom. But do you honestly expect him to sit quietly and never return an argument when certain people are calling him all sorts of things?
            
            Quote:
            It is your over sensitivity that has lead you to that conclusion.
            
            I may be over sensitive, and you may be under sensitive...
            
            Quote:
            If you think the concepts of ENT are new? Then you clearly never watch TOS, TNG and DS9
            
            I was thinking more in terms of the general "evolved mankind explores space and the world around them" concept. This concept is certainly less pronounced in the ENT series, but it makes sense as the show takes place in an earlier time period, still within the Trek universe.
            
            Quote:
            That is because you have low standards in entertainment.
            
            Hmm. You've said that before, but I don't agree with it. Why do you think I dislike other shows? They are not my style. Either because I'm a brainwashed Trekkie or because I value the concept mentioned above. Initially this drew me into TNG. Since then I found a way to agree with the different approch in DS9 although I had to stretch myself, and when ENT began I was willing to do the same for that show. It worked.
            
            Although it sounds unbelivable there may be truth in the proverb "one mans junk is another mans treasure". Basically I can't find what I'm looking for in non-Trek shows.

            
            

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            • RE: Wonder if Braga will call her a continuity pornographer? | Report this post to moderator
              By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:36:40 on Sep 13, 2004

              Quote:
              This whole "continuity pornographer" issue has gone too far.
              
              Not far enough. When Braga apologizes to fans in general for taking us lightly and not appreciating us then I'll let the issue go. And we aren't "extremists", we're dedicated fans with higher standards.
              
              Quote:
              But do you honestly expect him to sit quietly and never return an argument when certain people are calling him all sorts of things?
              
              I expect him to generate a quality product that is at least somewhat faithful to the 'Trek that has come before. If they decided to do a prequel, then damn it, they should have known many people would view them under a microscope. Hell, even Blalock is now criticizing them for their stupidity.
              
              If you do something stupid, expect people to tell you so. If you generate a crappy product then expect people to complain.
              
              
              
              --------
              
              "Oh, I'll wake up
              To any sound of engines,
              Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
              
              Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep

              
              

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              • A generational thing? | Report this post to moderator
                By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:03:09 on Sep 14, 2004

                Could it be a generational thing? I've seen all of TNG, DS9 and VOY and I find that ENT is very much in line with those shows. But I know almost nothing about TOS or the TOS movies. I am a fan of modern Trek. I recognise the roots as something that should be cared for, but I haven't seen it.

                
                

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                • RE: A generational thing? | Report this post to moderator
                  By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:59:08 on Sep 14, 2004

                  Quote:
                  But I know almost nothing about TOS or the TOS movies.
                  
                  You don't know what you're missing! I don't know how you can arrange for it where you are, but if you can, you need to take a look at some TOS episodes.
                  
                  What you will find is that the show was much more "military" oriented in terms of showing the chain of command, although it is also quite clear that there is a comraderie that goes as well, beyond rank.
                  
                  But how Star Fleet was shown during the 23rd century, is why you may see me complaining so much about "rules" and "regulations" and attention paid to that, that needs to come into play in ENT during the 22nd century.
                  
                  --------
                  
                  "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
                  ----
                  "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

                  
                  

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                • RE: A generational thing? | Report this post to moderator
                  By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:10:43 on Sep 14, 2004

                  I don't think it is a matter of it being generational but a matter of being faithful to the source material. Okay, granted, TOS' special effects suck by today's standards. The sets are cheap and the costumes not very impressive. People go on to say Shatner is a lousy actor. On and on and on.
                  
                  But hell, there was something to the show that spawned ten motion pictures and all these series, now wasn't there? Yet B & B seem so dismissive of the original product because it looks old and isn't "hip" by today's standards. They feel constrained by what has come before so they ignore it when it suits them.
                  
                  If you are doing a prequel then the show must be in line with all the series that came before it, not just the ones produced during B & B's lifetimes.
                  
                  Now, here is something that TOS had that Enterprise doesn't; science fiction writers. The likes of Harlan Ellison and Theodore Sturgeon worked on TOS, producing classics like Amok Time and City On The Edge of Forever. Enterprise lacks writing talent like this and I think B & B have made a terrible mistake by taking on much of the writing chores early on. They should have stuck to producing and let others write. Of course, the story is these two butcher whatever scripts come over their desks anyway so I doubt that would have helped.
                  
                  --------
                  
                  "Oh, I'll wake up
                  To any sound of engines,
                  Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
                  
                  Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep

                  
                  

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                • RE: A generational thing? | Report this post to moderator
                  By: Meglo (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:05:39 on Sep 14, 2004

                  Probably not generational, as I grew up with TNG/DS9, and I think ENT is terrible. When I finally got around to seeing all of TOS in '98 (I had only seen marathons before) I enjoyed it immensely. Granted, TNG may have greater quantity of good TV, but the best of TOS still beats the best of any other series.
                  
                  --------
                  
                  The supervisor is Verizon!

                  
                  

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        • RE: Wonder if Braga will call her a continuity pornographer? | Report this post to moderator
          By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:18:07 on Sep 12, 2004

          Quote:"I would have a good laugh and assume a thick irony. :-)"
          
          In other words you would just sit there and take it like a dope. I wouldn't call it a thick irony. I would call it your thick skull because you fail to see the point. My point is that some people don't respect the fans that have made them rich and famous. It is very clear Braga could walk up to you and call you a f'ing moron to your face and you would just sit there like a dummy and smile and probably ask for an autograph. Have a little respect for yourself.
          
          
          Quote:"Some people will arm themselves to the teeth in order to bite their opponent. You know very well that you bite B&B when you deliver your messages. I was referring to this method of communicating.
          
          What does this have to do with anything? I clearly commented on the fact that I think Braga is a jerk for saying something like to the fans of the show. You are the one who is picking a fight with me. Am I wrong in assuming that he is a jerk and is showing disrespect to the fans who have remembered his work and the work of others? They are just too lazy to remember their own crap and get upset when a fan of the show does remember THEIR work over them. So again am I wrong? If so how?
          
          
          Quote:"I want to achieve mutual understanding and respect between producers and fans so I voice my attempts to understand their troubles. In my experience this will increase their interest in what I have to say. It will get me more attention than shouting."
          
          And just who exactly do you think you are? You accuse me of having an ego when in fact yours completely overshadows mine in spades with such a response. Don't accuse me of being arrogant when you make such a comment like the one you said. It makes you a hypocrite. If you think that someone like Braga is going to respect you when he makes comments like that to fans along with Bermans shots at fans then you are not only sadly mistake but live in a fantasy world. I was not yelling and I have not shown in the previous response that I was doing so. It is your over sensitivity that has lead you to that conclusion.
          
          
          Quote:"I do realise, you are not trying to get their attention, you are simply trying to get rid of them. You made up your mind long ago.
          
          Do not sit there and patronize me with your arrogance. "made up my mind long ago". It doesn't take a genius to see that Trek has taken a clear nose dive these past 10 years. The decision to get rid of Berman and Braga was a choice that should of been done YEARS ago. After the failure of Nemesis and the horrible ratings for ENT it was clear that if anyone had a brain at Paramount they would of given Berman and his girlfriend the BOOT!
          
          
          Quote:"You think they are the devils, but you may overlook the fact that, far worse people could be in charge. Of all the 6 billion people in this world, how many of them would you entrust with the Star Trek franchine?"
          
          I am sorry to have to tell you this but I am in no means going to pick the lesser of two evils when it comes to these two. I will not sit there and watch more of or support more of Berman and Braga shitty Trek only because "there could be far worse people in charge". So that makes it all better? Sorry buddy but NO Trek is far better than LOUSY Trek. I can survive if there is no Star Trek on television for a few years or a there is a few years in between movies. It is clear you can't. You know there are other programs on tv and other movies out there. It is clear you don't read a damn thing I write because I have already stated several times people who I think would benefit Trek with the removal of the two warts known as B&B from Trek.
          
          
          Quote:"Have you heard of the recent german production that claims to have roots in Trek? It's a big, bad joke, a very bad joke, but people with little knowledge will go and see the movie and assume some resemblence with Trek. There really is none. The movie is called "Traumshiff Enterprise" and I'm angry with it.
          
          No I have not and nor do I care. Stop trying to get off topic.
          
          
          Quote:"B&B's Trek have some weaknesses and some strengths (as would be the case with anyone running the show). Overall it may not be able to compete with certain other products in terms of characterisation, nor will it satisfy everyones expectations (specifically fans expectation) and they may never give you the kind of Trek that you want. I try to imagine what it must be like, to be so unsatisfied with ENT as you are.
          
          Again you may put your arrogance on low. Do you honestly think I am the only person who thinks that ENT has been a failure from the start? Do you actually read anything that other people on this board? The fact remains that you can't please everyone. But B&B don't care and with comments like "continuity pornographer" clearly shows that they don't care about no one. But you fail to see that because you have your "I love Braga rosy glasses on" to realize that you have been insulted. You are seen as another dumb Trek who will swallow anything with the word Trek on it by the man who love so much.
          
          
          Quote:"But you can rejoice. They have a reduced role in the production of ENT now so lets excersise some self-control and see what a combined effort from Coto and the new writing team will do for the show.
          
          I am happy that B&B are reduced. However I will only rejoice when the two of them are GONE from Trek PERMANENTLY! The fact that Berman is involved in another Trek movie despite having 2 BOMB under his belt only tells me to expect "STRIKE 3" for the next movie. A prequel movie to boot. How bad is this monster going to be. hahaha No thanks! Don't plan on wasting 2 hrs of my time and $12 bucks seeing another piece of shit Berman film. With some dumb suit with no experience and the dude who made the Inspector Gadget movies. If you can't see this train wreck coming you clearly need to get some glasses. "Go go gadget sheilds...." hahaha
          
          By the way have you noticed that NO ONE is sad that B&B have a reduced role? Gee I wonder why that is?
          
          
          Quote:"I still don't think B&B are the devils. I have enjoyed most of the Trek we've been offered over the years.
          
          That is because you have low standards in entertainment.
          
          
          Quote:"That is why I'm a fan.
          
          No if you were a fan you would of realized that you are seen as a mindless dumb Trek fan by the man you love. If you were a real fan you would of wanted B&B heads on a platter like the rest of us years ago! So I would not call you a fan one bit!
          
          
          Quote:"I have never been so intrigued and happy with anything on TV (athough I was about to loose all interest in VOY) I think highly of the concepts of Trek. Concepts that are found nowhere else.
          
          If you think the concepts of ENT are new? Then you clearly never watch TOS, TNG and DS9. They ripped off a whole bunch of them last season. And if you think that episodes based on a "sick dog" are interesting you need to get your head examined.

          
          

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Hmmm. | Report this post to moderator
By: slapynutz (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:07:25 on Sep 11, 2004

Here comes Jolene to echo pretty much everything people have a problem with regarding Vulcans on Enterprise, and she's torn to shreds.

Could it be that this board is primarily made up of:

a. Jealous Ugly Women, who feel threatened by beautiful women.

and

b. Jealous Ugly Men, who could never in a million years hope to be with someone like Jolene.

Just wondering.

And in response to Scorned who criticised Jolene for disliking the "sexing up" of her character but was fine with doing nudity ... perhaps she would be fine with doing nudity in a film or show if it fit into the story better. I'm pretty sure she was talking about nude scenes in general, and not specifically about Enterprise.

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• RE: Hmmm. | Report this post to moderator
  By: Meglo (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:52:09 on Sep 11, 2004

  I wouldn't say she's being torn to shreds, there are just some smart people on this board who don't like being patronized by an actress that's being sent on a desperate junket to try and build support for a dying show.
  
  --------
  
  The supervisor is Verizon!

  
  

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  • RE: Hmmm. | Report this post to moderator
    By: Timo (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:44:17 on Sep 11, 2004

    Quote:
    there are just some smart people on this board
    You could have fooled me.
    
    Quote:
    who don't like being patronized by an actress that's being sent on a desperate junket to try and build support for a dying show.
    If you feel you're being patronized by an actress giving her opinion on a character in a tv show, than you're taking this waaaay to serious.
    

    
    

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    • RE: Hmmm. | Report this post to moderator
      By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:46:24 on Sep 13, 2004

      Quote:
      You could have fooled me.
      
      Congratulations, you just insulted the entire board. Bravo.
      
      --------
      
      "Oh, I'll wake up
      To any sound of engines,
      Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
      
      Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep

      
      

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    • RE: Hmmm. | Report this post to moderator
      By: SirTrekker (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:44:18 on Sep 11, 2004

      Quote:
      If you feel you're being patronized by an actress giving her opinion on a character in a tv show, than you're taking this waaaay top serious.
      
      It IS patronization of the most blatant sort. It couldn't be any more if she actually said, "Hey, fans, look at this! See? I just said I hate my character's and her race's portrayals, too! There! Now do you like me again?"
      
      I think these actors believe that as long as they say what they think we want to hear, we'll follow them blindly. I'd bet that at some point, she or her agent/publicist/whatever thought, "Hmm, the fans are really upset about T'Pol. Say, if I do a bunch of interviews complaining about it, the fans will believe I'm just as angry as they are, and they won't think so little of me!" That line of thinking is a strong underestimation of the collective intelligence of the fanbase, and if you really believe that line doesn't cross the actors' minds at some point, then you're just being naive.
      
      The timing of these comments makes them seem like little more than pandering towards the fans, and damage control to save her image and career. Do I believe that she really feels the way she says? Sure, I do. But that doesn't make them sound any more legitimate to me.

      
      

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• RE: Hmmm. | Report this post to moderator
  By: SirTrekker (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:48:00 on Sep 11, 2004

  Quote:
  Here comes Jolene to echo pretty much everything people have a problem with regarding Vulcans on Enterprise, and she's torn to shreds.
  
  Could it be that this board is primarily made up of:
  
  a. Jealous Ugly Women, who feel threatened by beautiful women.
  
  and
  
  b. Jealous Ugly Men, who could never in a million years hope to be with someone like Jolene.
  
  Just wondering.
  
  She's being "torn to shreds", as you put it, because of the fact that she's griping about issues that have existed for THREE seasons. People on these boards and MANY others have been talking about them for just as long. Yet, suddenly, as the series that's handing her a paycheck every week is teetering on the edge of oblivion, and fans all over the world are complaining about T'Pol, she breaks the news that she's never liked the way T'Pol and Vulcans, in general, are being portrayed! Well, dip me in mustard and call me hot dog! Let me see if I've got this straight, Jolene: you've worked on this show for three years, read the scripts, acted out the scenes, and never said a word against any of it, and NOW you feel as if your character's (and her race's) actions are "inconsistent"? Hmm, better late than never, huh? :-\
  
  And, by the way, regarding your multiple-choice commentary, Jolene is definately not the woman I picture next to the word "beautiful" in the dictionary. That belongs to my fiance, thank you. I wouldn't hope to be with Jolene if a genie offered me a thousand wishes instead of the customary three. Not that she isn't attractive; she's just not my cup of tea.
  
  This has nothing to do with her looks, or her gender, or anything else, anyway. It has to do with a woman who's patronizing a fanbase that is rapidly jumping ship by repeating, basically, the same things they've already observed so it doesn't seem like she's not "in-tune" with the fans.

  
  

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• RE: Hmmm. Nothing. | Report this post to moderator
  By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:35:55 on Sep 11, 2004

  Quote:"Here comes Jolene to echo pretty much everything people have a problem with regarding Vulcans on Enterprise, and she's torn to shreds."
  
  She is not being torn to shreds. You are exaggerating.
  
  Quote:" Jealous Ugly Women, who feel threatened by beautiful women. and b. Jealous Ugly Men, who could never in a million years hope to be with someone like Jolene."
  
  WHAT POSSIBLE RELEVANCE does this have? The looks of the people on this site or the sexual conquest of the people on this site means NOTHING and does NOT validate your point. Instead of playing the "race/sex" card why don't you address the point of people who are criticizing her. If these people are making bullshit comments to what she says then they are idiots. If they are making valid points to what she says then you are just avoiding a truth with a "feeling threatened" card. Trying to get off topic in order to avoid the issue.
  
  And for the record, I don't think Jolene is that attractive. She is not ugly but she is not all that. When it comes to "Trek" as a whole (ie Vulcan stuff) I do not feel threatened in any way to her. I would feel more threatened to Jadzia Dax on this site because she has shown an incredible knowledge of the Vulcan credo in Trek compared to Jolene who bitched about her character being "less Vulcan" but FAILS to show that compared to other established Vulcan character. Dax on this site has clearly shown that she has watched TOS etc where as Jolene has yet to demonstrate that.
  
  
  
  Quote:"And in response to Scorned who criticised Jolene for disliking the "sexing up" of her character but was fine with doing nudity ... perhaps she would be fine with doing nudity in a film or show if it fit into the story better. I'm pretty sure she was talking about nude scenes in general, and not specifically about Enterprise.
  
  She commented on the episode where she does Trip. She commented on the fact that when the episode aired on the west coast they showed the crack of her ass. By the time it made its way to the east they darkened it up so you didn't see her ass. The networks she said were still taking the hit from the Janet Jackson mess from the Superbowl. When asked about "nudity" she said she doesn't have a problem with it. I assume she is implying about television and movies. So she says that she was upset with the sexing up. Well I disagree. I think she is just upset that fans did not respond to the sexing up of T'Pol/Trip last season and now she is a bit scorned about it. If she feels that her character is being "sexually exploited" maybe she should address that issue again when she is on the cover of FHM in a "dental floss" bikini.
  
  
  

  
  

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  • RE: Hmmm. Nothing. | Report this post to moderator
    By: Timo (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:12:28 on Sep 11, 2004

    Quote:
    She is not being torn to shreds. You are exaggerating.
    
    The night is young.
    
    Quote:
    I think she is just upset that fans did not respond to the sexing up of T'Pol/Trip last season and now she is a bit scorned about it.
    
    Why would she be upset about a storyline she publicly critizised before it even aired?
    
    Quote:
    If she feels that her character is being "sexually exploited" maybe she should address that issue again when she is on the cover of FHM in a "dental floss" bikini.
    
    I find these continued attempts to discredit her opinion on the basis of a few photoshoots, simply pathetic.
    
    She appears to be perfectly capable of keeping her modeling and acting jobs seperate, which cannot be said for some on this board.
    
    Or are women who appear on the cover of FHM not allowed to have an opinion?
    
    Or is it because she as a person doesn't have a problem with nudity, that the writers are free to have her character involved in a bunch of stupid "sexing up" storylines?

    
    

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    • RE: Hmmm. Nothing. | Report this post to moderator
      By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:03:08 on Sep 11, 2004 | (1)

      Quote from Timo to Scorned:
      Why would she be upset about a storyline she publicly critizised before it even aired?
      
      
      Blalock has been seriously displeased about S3 T'Pol from the very start. I've watched her TV interview demeanor slip from enthusiasism to embarrassment. In S1 and S2, T'Pol wasn't centered out; every character was degraded to create a ship of fools.
      
      Some of the disparagement here borders on absurdity. In The Savage Curtain, Kirk says, "We've each learned to be delighted with what we are. The Vulcan's learned that centuries before we did". Kirk refers to an attitude which says that no one needs to be like anyone else in order to be accepted. This is precisely what Blalock says about herself and T'Pol: "I don't believe she should be so desperate to be like everyone else, because the original STAR TREK which I grew up with, had a very simple message that I took from it, and that is that not everyone is like me, and I'm not perfect, and nobody's perfect, and that's okay". Blalock is giving an interview, not engaged in debate, so it's ridiculous to expect her to supply quotes from episodes.
      
      
      Quote:
      She appears to be perfectly capable of keeping her modeling and acting jobs seperate, which cannot be said for some on this board.
      
      
      For anyone to presume that Blalock is clueless, just because she poses for glossy magazines, is a sign of being a slave to pernicious stereotypes. It isn't unusual for "serious" actors to pose for cheescake, including Scott Bakula in Playgirl.
      
      
      --------------
      NX-01 Model Kit
      

      
      

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I think Jolene has said enough, time to get back to work or quit! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:47:37 on Sep 11, 2004 | (1)

For the past few weeks we have seen many interviews by ENT cast members about the upcoming season. Every interview that Jolene has done has been basically the same thing. She slams the show that has made her famous. (I use the word famous lightly here.) The only VALID point she has made has been the poor way Vulcans have been portrayed through out the history of ENT. That is it! Last season showed the worst display of a Vulcan character ever. The idea of a "anorexic crack whore Vulcan" was just ridiculous. Now she has this big chip on shoulder it seems and she is out bashing the show, the writers etc. Excuse me but this show was like winning the lottery for ANYONE in acting in Hollywood. Her acting as a whole is terrible. She can't act. Anyone else would of been happy to have landed that role. I will even say that some of the magazines may have "misquoted" her to jazz up the story because controversy sells papers and magazine. But this chip on her shoulder seems to be very evident in all the interviews lately. As a main cast member slamming the show does nothing. It doesn't attract new fans. It doesn't make current fans very thrilled. It makes her look like one of these actors who is always bitching about everything (a case of an over inflated ego!) If she is that unhappy with the role then maybe she should quit the show! Personally I would VERY much like it if she quit. They can EASILY find someone else to fill her shoes. Possibly get someone who CAN act to play a "Deltan" character

After reading her comments I find it VERY hard to believe that she watched ANY of TOS. No where in her comments does she make ANY reference to TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY. She is mad about her Vulcan character but she FAILS to use examples of past series/movies to back it up. NO where does she say "Spock does and says this, Tuvok says and does this in episode..etc" The ONLY thing Vulcan she has done last season was RIP OFF the line for STII "The needs of the many out weight the needs of the few". So if she has something to say then maybe she should spend some time preparing her thoughts and comments.

So I think she has let off some steam and I think Jolene should suck it up and get back to work. It doesn't help the struggling show with main cast members being quoted as saying "This is probably the last season any ways". With that pissy attitude of "who give a shit" then why would anyone want to watch it to begin with?

Oh yes Star Trek is so bad. That is why she charges $50,000 for a 2 hr "autograph session"?

Quote:"an exclusive interview with STAR TREK ENTERPRISE star Jolene Blalock, in which the actress talks to journalist Jeff Bond about her disappointment in the overall level of writing on the show. Here are a few excerpts.

I wouldn't call this a "exclusive" because she has been pissing and moaning these past couple of months.


Quote:""The concepts with the shows aren't the problem; I think the concepts are amazing," Blalock told the magazine

And what amazing concepts is she talking about? The cowboy episode of S3? The dumb sick dog in S2? The fact that Archer gets kidnapped every week?


Quote:"The issue is the dialogue. I personally believe that T'Pol should have more of her Vulcan culture. I don't believe she should be so desperate to be like everyone else, because the original STAR TREK which I grew up with, had a very simple message that I took from it, and that is that not everyone is like me, and I'm not perfect, and nobody's perfect, and that's okay. That really helped me.

WHAT in the hell is she talking about? I find it VERY hard to believe that Jolene has watched even one episode of TOS. I think she watched a different Star Trek series then the rest of us.

Is she suppose to be walking about talking in Vulcan? In her quarters you see the candles for meditating. Much like you saw in Tuvok and Spocks quarters in STVI. They already dealt with the issue of her "fitting it" with Archer and Tucker yelling at her calling her a "snob" and how the Vulcans are arrogant jerks. She is the only Vulcan on a human ship. So it is very understandable for her to try and fit in. Otherwise what would be the point? Every week of her going back to her quarters having no interaction with the rest of cast. Does she wish to rip off the "debates" between Spock and McCoy? Of course that would assume that she watched TOS which I find VERY doubtful.


Quote:" I think that T'Pol could be okay with being Vulcan, she shouldn't have to want to be Vulcan."

No where has T'Pol said or demonstrated that she is not happy being a Vulcan. She is the only Vulcan on a human ship. So she has to adapt to that. I think she is just talking out of her ass.


Quote:"In the dialogue... why is it that when we're trying to teach each other something, all of our analogies involve Earth lore? Don't our cultures have their own lore that might make for good messages."

Again she is on a HUMAN ship with a HUMAN crew. What are they suppose to be talking about all the time "Klingon" stories? They have in the past had her talk about "Vulcan" in a positive way. The Vulcans can't be doing the same things as humans. Then there is no difference between the two.


Quote:"Ironically, Blalock'a attitude is in line with that of many old-guard TREK fans who see ENTERPRISE as diluting the core elements of the franchise mythology; for Blalock the damage is done in small increments.

First off she is NOT in line with the old guard Trek fans. She would of had to have watched TOS and not listen to "reviews" by people who did and call that watching. If she is such a fan of TOS and Star Trek then she should of quoted SOMETHING from past series or movies. I have yet to see any examples provided by her. Dax on this site knows MORE about Vulcans than she claims to be. I find it funny how she never made any comments about ENT like this until now. Sudden things are bad?


Quote:"In [the first season's] 'Shadows of P'Jem', they made this huge story about how Vulcans were undermining Starfleet and had some kind of agenda, but they never went to readdress it." says Blalock "Then there's this episode in which T'Pol gets sick, terminally ill, and they never readdress it. There's the characteristic where Vulcans don't eat food with their hands, and yet they'll write scenes where T'Pol is eating popcorn at a movie or Trip will bring T'Pol a peach. It's just so strange to me, and I think that as a character you should be okay with who you are and or who you're meant to be."

FINALLY she now gives examples! There were MANY things that have been left unaddressed. It was just not the Vulcans stuff. That whole TCW thing was completely abandoned in S3 along with just about everything else. This was the problem that I said for doing an entire season on the boring Xindi. You have nothing else working in the background. If the ratings during the Xindi arc feel they had no where else to go but cancellation. There was nothing else in the back ground that they could of worked with. That was the stupid of Berman and Braga at its best.!! They never said that T'Pol was terminally ill. That whole RIDICULOUS Aids/Mindmeld thing said she had a chronic condition. The popcorn thing is just silly.

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• RE: I think Jolene has said enough, time to get back to work or quit! | Report this post to moderator
  By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:37:37 on Sep 11, 2004

  Quote:
  After reading her comments I find it VERY hard to believe that she watched ANY of TOS. No where in her comments does she make ANY reference to TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY.
  
  Yeah, damn her for not quoting chapter and verse. She obviously has nothing to say.
  
  Quote:
  "This is probably the last season any ways".
  
  She's not alone in making comments about the likely demise of the show. She and the rest of the cast have probably been very stressed over this last year or so and they're letting off a little steam.
  
  Quote:
  No where has T'Pol said or demonstrated that she is not happy being a Vulcan.
  
  I agree but T'Pol has clearly been angry with her fellow Vulcans on numerous occasions, and has even intentionally revealed some of their diplomatically sensitive secrets. Obviously T'Pol is at odds with at least the mainstream of her kind.
  
  --------
  
  'It was beautiful, we were selling rich women their fat asses back to them' - Tylor Durden

  
  

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  • RE: I think Jolene has said enough, time to get back to work or quit! | Report this post to moderator
    By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:11:24 on Sep 12, 2004

    Quote:"Yeah, damn her for not quoting chapter and verse. She obviously has nothing to say."
    
    I did not require her to quote chapter and verse about her comparisons. You are clearly missing the point.
    
    
    Quote:"She's not alone in making comments about the likely demise of the show. She and the rest of the cast have probably been very stressed over this last year or so and they're letting off a little steam."
    
    You know this is a bit silly to suggest this. She is on a tv show and part of an on going cultural icon. The show is struggling and she should at LEAST be a little more opptomistic about it. Instead she is having this "well it's the end who gives a shit" attitude. Who the hell wants to see a show even if it is the last season if the cast is having that kind of attitude? It doens't give anyone the impression that they are going to try and do a good job.
    
    
    Quote:"I agree but T'Pol has clearly been angry with her fellow Vulcans on numerous occasions, and has even intentionally revealed some of their diplomatically sensitive secrets."
    
    So what? It doesn't demonstrate her unhappiness being a Vulcan.
    
    
    

    
    

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    • RE: I think Jolene has said enough, time to get back to work or quit! | Report this post to moderator
      By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:58:55 on Sep 12, 2004

      Quote:
      I did not require her to quote chapter and verse about her comparisons. You are clearly missing the point.
      
      
      My 'chapter and verse' comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. My point was that she made a comment that didn't require her to refer to other series. Yet you were complaining that she didn't. I think you would find fault with no matter what she said.
      
      Quote:
      You know this is a bit silly to suggest this.
      
      I think my point was likely a statement of fact. Why you want the actors in Trek to be emotional superheroes I don't know. I'm especially surprised however, because you have been trashing the T'Pol character for years. When the actress behind the character voices, at least approximate, agreement with you, you trash her for that too.
      
      Quote:
      I agree but T'Pol has clearly been angry with her fellow Vulcans on numerous occasions, and has even intentionally revealed some of their diplomatically sensitive secrets."
      
      Obviously the T'Pol character has shown us on numerous occasions that she respects and longs for certain human individual and societal characteristics. What's more, actors frequently flesh out characters beyond what is written in order to have a complete sense of what they will portray. Perhaps Jolene Blalock has done this in this case.
      
      
      
      --------
      
      'It was beautiful, we were selling rich women their fat asses back to them' - Tylor Durden

      
      

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      • RE: I think Jolene has said enough, time to get back to work or quit! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:37:56 on Sep 12, 2004

        Quote:"Yet you were complaining that she didn't. I think you would find fault with no matter what she said."
        
        I think that with her new found "unhappiness" she should of been more specific. She complains she is not Vulcan enough yet we clearly saw Vulcan traits etc. in Spock and Tuvok. They have discussed the Vulcans in ENT before. Every interview she seems to be doing now she bashes the show. She "suddenly" is unhappy after 3 years of doing it? Why the sudden unhappiness? It was suggested by someone else that she is trying to align herself with the fans in order to save or improve her career. As for the comment of "finding fault no matter what". Spare me the sarcasm. I will not apologize for being a fan who has been watching and paying attention all these years. If Berman and Braga could not keep their shit straight but the fans could. Then that shows you how incompetent they really are.
        
        
        Quote:"because you have been trashing the T'Pol character for years. When the actress behind the character voices, at least approximate, agreement with you, you trash her for that too.
        
        Again, I have (and so have others) criticized the direction and way Vulcans are done. Along with a few other things. Her comments do back up what I said. However my point is that with the show getting barely renewed and with a new show runner who promises to "tie" in ENT to TOS. She is now suddenly going around with this chip on her shoulder. This sudden 'who gives a shit attitude". I am sorry as much as I think ENT these past 3 years has been terrible. She has a great job and she is making some big cash. So she should put on a "happy smile" and tough it out. Yes she is entitled to her opinion but right now what is the point in bashing the show? That is my point. It has nothing to do with her repeating everything I said this past year or so. If she had a problem with her character then she should of went to Coto and said "look the fans are calling me a anorexic crack whore. The worst Vulcan ever.... Can you fix this?" What Jolene should of said in the interview is that she is aware of the "non-Vuclan" portrayal and that she is unhappy about it. She has gone to Coto and the writers asking them to help improve the situation. THAT is what she should of done instead of going around with "well this is the last season, what the fuck was that stuff I was on Trillium D, the Trip/T'Pol romance: yeah he is a some hillbilly blah blah". Maybe when her 3 year contract was up she shouldn't of renewed it.
        

        
        

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Here's the praise | Report this post to moderator
By: Postdoc (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:30:49 on Sep 11, 2004

It has be maddening for somebody to play a character and not have something as basic as how they eat be consistent. That may sound like a small thing, but considering how many times these character are in the mess hall, or talking about chef, or their favorite foods, it isn't on Enterprise, particularly in the first season. T'Pol has been remarkably inconsistent with a character, but the series has been inconsistent from the start. Its underpinnings of seat of the pants exploration convenient disappeared with the Xindi Arc (before actually) and that arc will go this year. Will the temporal cold war be solved? She has a right to recognize what's going on with her character. She shows up to work and she is entitled to an opinion. Her attitude on the inconsistency of the character has been pretty consistent from the beginning. Now I need to stop because I have to find more synonyms.

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• RE: Here's the praise | Report this post to moderator
  By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:29:24 on Sep 12, 2004

  S3 did throw out much of what had gone before. I also agree that it’s better to keep the bread and butter of a character consistent, but I don't think T'Pol has really been all that inconsistent. Although her behaviour did get fairly erratic in S3, that's not inconsistent story telling - it's putting a character through an unwitting substance addiction.
  
  I really liked the S1&2 'seat of your pants exploration' theme. I thought they should have gone further to differentiate the series from what had gone before, but all in all I personally enjoyed a fair number of the episodes. S3 went off on a try to find the ratings tangent which, except for a few episodes, was quite forgettable.
  
  
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  'It was beautiful, we were selling rich women their fat asses back to them' - Tylor Durden

  
  

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Insercure trekkies | Report this post to moderator
By: mohap (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:03:08 on Sep 11, 2004

If this was anybody else making these criticisms, like bakula or billingsey, you people would have nothing but high praise on these boards....

T'pol's criticisms are in line with the fans criticisms of the Vulcan directions, and yet trekkies can't handle a pretty girl making intelligent comments.

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• RE: Insercure trekkies | Report this post to moderator
  By: SirTrekker (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:25:07 on Sep 11, 2004

  Quote:
  If this was anybody else making these criticisms, like bakula or billingsey, you people would have nothing but high praise on these boards....
  
  Nothing could be further from the truth. It makes no difference who was saying these kinds of things. If Scott Bakula was on his soapbox, decrying the way things were done in the past 3 seasons, when he had not spoken out on such things before, I'd have the same opinion of him as I do of Jolene. Jolene's comments on her character now, as the series fights for its life due to fan disgruntlement, seems to be little more than pandering to the fans.
  
  Quote:
  T'pol's criticisms are in line with the fans criticisms of the Vulcan directions, and yet trekkies can't handle a pretty girl making intelligent comments.
  
  You're kidding, right? This has absolutely nothing to do with her gender or the level of beauty she possesses. All she's doing is echoing the kinds of things the fans have already been saying for years, at a time when it's most expedient. Yes, her comments are intelligent, but they're also spoken as if she's suddenly siding with the fans to save her career. That's where my objection lies.

  
  

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  • RE: Insercure trekkies | Report this post to moderator
    By: Timo (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:29:52 on Sep 11, 2004

    Quote:
    Yes, her comments are intelligent, but they're also spoken as if she's suddenly siding with the fans to save her career.
    
    This reasoning makes no sense. Siding with a group of critical fans is not going to "save" anything. Quite the opposite, in fact. Her employer won't be happy and neither will the majority of the ENT fans.

    
    

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    • RE: Insercure trekkies | Report this post to moderator
      By: SirTrekker (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:58:09 on Sep 11, 2004

      Quote:
      This reasoning makes no sense. Siding with a group of critical fans is not going to "save" anything. Quite the opposite, in fact. Her employer won't be happy and neither will the majority of the ENT fans.
      
      I think it makes total sense. If Jolene were to sit in front of an interviewer and say, "Those fans are crazy! I think T'Pol's behavior in season 3 is just fine! Rick and Brannon are taking her in a direction no Vulcan's ever been in before, and they're just complaining because I'm not playing her more like Spock. They need to stop whining and get over it!", or something to that regard, you know damn well the fans would be up in arms over it, and would bring her down like she was first prize at a turkey shoot. Comments like THOSE would put her and the show in an even poorer light, and make fan ire even more intense.
      
      It would be expedient of her, at a time when the show is in danger of getting the axe (make no mistake; even though Season 4 is about to start, all is not safe yet for Enterprise, especially if ratings don't improve), to take sides with the fans who are upset with the way T'Pol has been portrayed. She'll come off looking like the victim of bad writing, and (this must be her belief) fans will say "Poor Jolene, she's sure gotten screwed by that awful Berman and Braga, but now that she's standing up for what she believes in, we won't put any of the blame on her!"
      
      No, her employer may not be happy with her comments, but I can't see them taking any real action against her. They can't fire her, because they're counting on her for the "T&A factor" on Enterprise (and I doubt there's little disagreement in that is how B&B really, deep down, consider T'Pol), and if she goes, so may some viewers who actually watch it just to see her in her tight outfits (and I'm sure there are some of those fools out there). So, other than some wrist-slapping, I seriously doubt she'll be punished for anything she's said so far.

      
      

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      • RE: Insercure trekkies | Report this post to moderator
        By: Timo (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:50:34 on Sep 11, 2004

        I still don't see how any of this is going to save her career. (does it need saving btw?)
        
        Whatever position she's going to take, she's always going to piss of some part of the fanbase. This thread and previous threads on this and other boards have made that very clear.
        
        As you said: she won't get fired over this. Still, the safest thing for her career would be to do what Bakula and the other ENT actors have done: make more neutral statements such as "this and that could have been handled better last season but this season we're going to try to bla bla..."
        
        I've never known an actor getting the blame for a show being axed. That Berman and Braga are going to be blamed for their writing is pretty much a given. Jolene needed have bothered with criticizing the writing if that was her intent.
        And even if some fans were to blame her... so what? The fans are not the ones who are going to save or break her career. Certainly not the fans who have been critical of the show. (as those are the ones you say she's trying to get on her side)
        

        
        

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        • RE: Insercure trekkies | Report this post to moderator
          By: Meglo (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:23:43 on Sep 11, 2004

          If Coto is as smart as everyone seems to think he is, it wouldn't surprise me if he told her to say the things she has in this interview. The one thing I'll give Coto credit for is that he seems to know the specific criticisms fans have give the show, especially regarding Vulcans. He probably said, "Jolene, in order to win back the fan base, we need you to run some damage control on T'Pol. Here's a page of stuff you should say, be sure to mention it's not the Trek you grew up with."
          
          I HIGHLY doubt she would have done this if it wasn't endorsed by Coto or Bakula, or someone else in the organization.
          
          --------
          
          The supervisor is Verizon!

          
          

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          • RE: Insercure trekkies | Report this post to moderator
            By: Timo (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:03:16 on Sep 12, 2004

            Well, if in the next few weeks she says "season 4 is so much better, this is what the show should have been from the start", then this will have been a very good publicity stunt.
            And people will be more inclined to believe her than if she had simply come out now and said the "we're all very pleased" speech.

            
            

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• RE: Insercure trekkies | Report this post to moderator
  By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:20:54 on Sep 11, 2004

  Quote:"If this was anybody else making these criticisms, like bakula or billingsey, you people would have nothing but high praise on these boards...."
  
  That is a bunch of crap. First off she is all over the place and second she is not that pretty. Third I guarantee she has NEVER seen TOS. She bitches about the "sexing up" part of S3 yet I see an interview with her and she had no problem doing "nudity". Well if you didn't like showing your "Vulcan ass" then you should of said so. If she decides to be consisent on her comments maybe fans would take her seriously. Lately all she has done is slam the show that has given her a job these past 4 years. Lets face her, her acting is nothing but B rated in the first place. She should be lucky she even has a job. You can't have a career being in a bikini showing off her fake boobs on the cover of FHM magazine.
  
  However the only thing that she has said in the past about the Vulcans being poorly done is the ONLY thing that fans and her agree on.
  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  

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Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:13:53 on Sep 11, 2004

Quote from GustavoLeao:
The latest issue of Cinefantastique magazine, just out in the US, features an exclusive interview with STAR TREK ENTERPRISE star Jolene Blalock, in which the actress talks to journalist Jeff Bond about her disappointment in the overall level of writing on the show.


I disapprove of some of Jolene Blalock's lifestyle choices, so I can't say that I'm a fan of the person. But, I've seen most of her TV interviews, where she shows more Star Trek savvy than all of the other ENT cast combined (with the exception of John Billingsley). Everything I've read and heard about/from Blalock indicates that she's serious about portraying a believable Science Officer and Vulcan character, even though her reach can exceed her grasp in the acting department.

Blalock's complaining about T'Pol isn't a new thing. She expressed exasperation about the direction of her character early in S3, e.g. in an October 2003 Zap2It article. I don't believe she's only paying lip service to appease grumbling fans. Blalock appeared uncomfortable talking about T'Pol in her last several TV interviews.

ENT insiders have said that the writers generally don't care what the actors think of their characters. Good for Blalock for showing more balls than the male actors in identifying her frustration.


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• RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
  By: Lost_In_Time (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:58:26 on Sep 11, 2004

  [q]Quote from GustavoLeao:
  
  I disapprove of some of Jolene Blalock's lifestyle choices, so I can't say that I'm a fan of the person. [/q]
  
  lol that's hilarious

  
  

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  • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
    By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:10:18 on Sep 11, 2004

    Quote from Lost_In_Time:
    Quote: I disapprove of some of Jolene Blalock's lifestyle choices, so I can't say that I'm a fan of the person.
    
    lol that's hilarious
    
    
    How so?
    
    
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    • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
      By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:03:59 on Sep 11, 2004

      I would just love to hear which of her lifestyle choices you disapprove of.
      
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      • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:16:48 on Sep 11, 2004

        Quote from Reklaw:
        I would just love to hear which of her lifestyle choices you disapprove of.
        
        
        Have I been adopted by your festering stalker self?
        
        Make a sensible contribution to the discussion, or take your whipped ass elsewhere.
        
        
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        • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
          By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:54:47 on Sep 11, 2004

          Quote:
          Make a sensible contribution to the discussion, or take your whipped ass elsewhere.
          
          The simple fact that I gave up on that circular discussion with you simply means that I am not a last-word-freak.
          
          As regards a sensible contribution: Did you not say you objected to her life style? Did I not ask you what it was specifically that you objected to? Care to explain where I wasn't being sensible? If the vein in your neck is out of control again, you might find lithium of some help, or perhaps a nice stiff tranquilizer.
          
          In any case, if you are wondering at my motive for asking you to elaborate on your disdain for Ms. Blalock's lifestyle, I'll be very forthright. I think you are a pompous opinionated snot, and I'd just love to here what deep frustration it is that you have with the world by telling us what aspects of her lifestyle you object to.
          
          Perhaps you are uncomfortable clarifying what you meant by your slam at her character?
          
          
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          • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
            By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:12:21 on Sep 11, 2004 | (1)

            Quote from Reklaw:
            The simple fact that I gave up on that circular discussion with you simply means that I am not a last-word-freak.
            
            
            The simple fact is that you are intellectually incapable of perceiving storytelling specifications that were required (by Roddenberry) for all Star Trek writers. These specifications were known even to the actors, e.g. as noted by Leonard Nimoy.
            
            Go ahead, dare me to discredit you further by providing verbatim quotes.
            
            
            Quote:
            Did I not ask you what it was specifically that you objected to?
            
            
            No, you indulged yourself in transparent baiting, expressing a bizarre crave of "love".
            
            
            Quote:
            I think you are a pompous opinionated snot,
            
            
            Mental coherency must truly frustrate you.
            
            
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            • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
              By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:27:27 on Sep 11, 2004

              Quote:
              The simple fact is that you are intellectually incapable of perceiving storytelling specifications that were required (by Roddenberry) for all Star Trek writers. These specifications were known even to the actors, e.g. as noted by Leonard Nimoy.
              
              Go ahead, dare me to discredit you further by providing verbatim quotes.
              
              On and on you go with this church of Roddenberry crap.
              
              Quote:
              No, you indulged yourself in transparent baiting, expressing a bizarre crave of "love".
              
              As I thought, you’re too craven to reveal your sad little frustrations in life.
              
              Quote:
              Mental coherency must truly frustrate you.
              
              To the contrary, limited little church of Roddenberry canon freaks are what irk me.
              
              
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              • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:56:22 on Sep 12, 2004

                Quote from Reklaw:
                On and on you go with this church of Roddenberry crap.
                
                
                So now you're going to argue that there was no Star Trek writer's guide, or that the use of a writer's guide was exclusive to Star Trek? Let me guess, you're hoping B&B will read your posts here and cast you as a tar-like creature in an episode of ENT called "Skin of Stupidity".
                
                Keep an eye open for a rerun of "Leonard Nimoy: Star Trek Memories", where the actor says, "As we've already seen in the episode with the rock creature, Gene Roddenberry had already written into the Star Trek Writer's Guide -- you might call it the show's Bible -- that Mr. Spock had the unique ability to mate his mind with that of a creature, or another person, in order to implant or extract important information."
                
                
                Quote:
                As I thought, you're too craven to reveal your sad little frustrations in life.
                
                
                Are you confessing, with your one-dimensional foggy thinking, that it's inconceivable to you that I can be supportive of Blalock here while not approving of all facets of her life? Is this why you act like a child who throws a whiny tantrum when he's not immediately informed of everything going on?
                
                
                Quote:
                To the contrary, limited little church of Roddenberry canon freaks are what irk me.
                
                
                I prefer to be on a winning team, while you wallow in ENT's failure. You're pissing into the wind at this point, because Manny Coto is already blowing TOS kisses at the likes of me.
                
                
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                • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                  By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:36:01 on Sep 12, 2004

                  Quote:
                  So now you're going to argue that there was no Star Trek writer's guide, or that the use of a writer's guide was exclusive to Star Trek?
                  
                  Ahhh, this would be Nth occasion I have had to respond saying no, I've said no such thing. Where in the hell did you find this most recent creative interpretation of what it is that I am saying.
                  
                  Quote:
                  Keep an eye open for a rerun of "Leonard Nimoy: Star Trek Memories", where the actor says, "As we've already seen in the episode with the rock creature, Gene Roddenberry had already written into the Star Trek Writer's Guide -- you might call it the show's Bible -- that Mr. Spock had the unique ability to mate his mind with that of a creature, or another person, in order to implant or extract important information."
                  
                  I recall this show, but I don't understand your point. As I recall, Leonard Nimoy was doing a scripted stand-up presentation in front of a blue screen so that they could 'project' scenes behind him. Anyway, in referring to this are you igniting the age old debate about whether it was reasonable in ENT to depict mind-melds as a fringe activity, even though it seemed to be a common one in TOS? I don't agree with the canon-freak interpretation on this either. I don't think TOS and ENT are mutually incompatible wrt mind-melding behaviour in Vulcan society.
                  
                  Quote:
                  Are you confessing, with your one-dimensional foggy thinking, that it's inconceivable to you that I can be supportive of Blalock here while not approving of all facets of her life?
                  
                  No, what I am getting at is what I have been only to clear in asking: What is it about her lifestyle that you disapprove of? You tossed that little indictment of her off with a conspicuous, self-congratulatory, my-shit-doesn't-stink flare and have ever since wriggled away from clarifying what it was that you were specifically meant. I'd love to hear from you about what it was that you meant. Again, I'll be very up front about my motivation - I think it would be very elucidating to understand what frustrations you are experiencing that give rise to your canon-freak, holier-than-thou mentality. Maybe I am mistaken about what gives rise to your narrow-mindedness, but why don’t you come clean and we’ll see?
                  
                  So, will you answer the question or are you going to keep on wriggling?
                  
                  Quote:
                  I prefer to be on a winning team, while you wallow in ENT's failure. You're pissing into the wind at this point, because Manny Coto is already blowing TOS kisses at the likes of me.
                  
                  Wow, there are teams are there? Thank you for continuing to help with filling out the canon-freak-mentality picture. I don't think I was even into that sort of limp frame of mind when I was at the height of puerile adolescence. But, if you get off on being part of a team man, have a blast being on the winning one.
                  
                  
                  
                  
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                  • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                    By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:18:54 on Sep 13, 2004 | (2)

                    Quote from Reklaw:
                    I don't think TOS and ENT are mutually incompatible wrt mind-melding behaviour in Vulcan society.
                    
                    
                    I'm not surprised, seeing how your brain cloud is impervious even to direct and authoritative statements. What Michael Piller states, for example, about "Roddenberry's box". Piller says it forced writers to be "more creative than we might ordinarily be", and, "It made us tell better, more original, unique stories". After Piller's statements were noted here, by Jadzia-Dax, your narcoleptic response was, "What is at issue is whether his 'specifications' should forever constrain Trek". You see "constrained" in Piller's comments?!
                    
                    No wonder you can't recognize the mess that is ENT, especially T'Pol and the Vulcans.
                    
                    
                    Quote:
                    Again, I'll be very up front about my motivation - I think it would be very elucidating to understand what frustrations you are experiencing that give rise to your canon-freak, holier-than-thou mentality.
                    
                    
                    Get a clue: It's because of your obvious motivation that I stand back, laughing, to let your clawing reveal just how pathetic you've become. You're scratching for something, anything, that might topple me from the "holier than thou" pedestal that your insecurities have built and put me on, within your mind. You poor thing.
                    
                    If you had any awareness of Blalock's public statements about her (past) lifestyle, you might easily guess what I disapprove of, because it's something that can jeopardize a person's health and even destroy their life.
                    
                    
                    Quote:
                    Wow, there are teams are there? Thank you for continuing to help with filling out the canon-freak-mentality picture. I don't think I was even into that sort of limp frame of mind when I was at the height of puerile adolescence.
                    
                    
                    There appears to be little overlap between your "frame of mind" and a normal frame of reality. The phrase "be on a winning team" refers to identifying and subscribing to factors that make for success. Versus your addiction to proven failure, for example.
                    
                    
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              • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:07:10 on Sep 12, 2004

                Quote:
                To the contrary, limited little church of Roddenberry canon freaks are what irk me.
                
                It's interesting how you counter an argument with a simpleton response that has nothing to do with "characters" and their purposes within the story-telling of Trek and what Nimoy has publicly spoken about regarding what the point of his character was in Trek. And surely Nimoy's work with the franchise, whether it be his 3 Emmy nominations as "Outstanding Performance by an Actor in a Supporting Role" for his work in "Star Trek" in 1967, 1968, and 1969 - meaning all 3 seasons of TOS, or his success with directing and penning Trek films, one of which, TVH, still stands as the number one Trek film, means that he cannot be summarily dismissed as you have done.
                
                In my Sci Fi Channel SE, he has an interview snippet where he notes:
                
                "My memory was that Gene said to me, 'This is going to be a character who will be onboard the Enterprise and quite visible. Alien-- he will look 'alien'. You will understand constantly that he is from another planet.' And that's why the pointed ears, among other things, were very important to Gene because this said 'This is an alien, this is not a Human being'. The other was that this was a character of mixed parentage: An Earth mother --Human, and a Vulcan father, and that there would be a battle for control of this being between his logical side and his emotional side. And he had chosen the Vulcan way, to be the Vulcan, to suppress emotion. I found that particularly intriguing as an actor, because it gave me an immediate drama to play, a personal drama to play, and a personal dynamic to be working on all the time. Little by little I began to understand that it was possible to play the 'suppressed emotion', and uh, give the audience an occassional peek, through the writing or through performance, at the struggle that this character was having, and I think many people identify with this. I think it's a very Human character, in a way. I've said this before. He's referred to as 'the alien', he's referred to as the 'stoic Vulcan', he's a very 'Human' character. He's dealing with a very Human problem. We're all living our lives trying to find a balance between emotion and logic. We're all at times, saying to ourselves, coming away from a situation --'Oh I wish I'd been able to control my temper...' or 'I wish I had let him have it.'"
                
                And it's things like this, where the characters are metaphors of Humanity without literally being "Human", that is missing from the T'Pol character. And this has nothing to do with "canon" or anything else you want to dismiss it as.
                
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                • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                  By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:23:16 on Sep 12, 2004

                  Quote:
                  Quote:
                  To the contrary, limited little church of Roddenberry canon freaks are what irk me.
                  
                  It's interesting how you counter an argument with a simpleton response that has nothing to do with "characters" and their purposes within the story-telling of Trek and what Nimoy has publicly spoken about regarding what the point of his character was in Trek.
                  
                  The specific quote you have made here was my response to the following comment:
                  
                  Quote:
                  Mental coherency must truly frustrate you.
                  
                  Since what I was responding to had nothing to do with characters in Trek why would I respond about characters in Trek? Elsewhere in my discussion with this individual I have talked at length about the character at issue. I argued that T'Pol represents a non-mainstream Vulcan, and that this represents an interesting elaboration of Vulcan society. So frankly, the point you are making here is quite groundless.
                  
                  Quote:
                  And surely Nimoy's work with the franchise, whether it be his 3 Emmy nominations as "Outstanding Performance by an Actor in a Supporting Role" for his work in "Star Trek" in 1967, 1968, and 1969 - meaning all 3 seasons of TOS, or his success with directing and penning Trek films, one of which, TVH, still stands as the number one Trek film, means that he cannot be summarily dismissed as you have done.
                  
                  
                  While I appreciate that Leonard Nimoy's contribution to Trek is substantial (and I very much enjoyed TVH - I've watched it probably 20 or more time over the last couple decades – I can’t believe its been almost twenty years!) I do not believe that the elaboration of Vulcans in ENT is incompatible with his or, more generally, the rest of earlier Trek. I believe instead that ENT provided an interesting new perspective on the Vulcan psyche and society from the eyes of a non-mainstream Vulcan. Looking at an established perspective (at an individual or societal level) from a decidedly different one is a common writing methodology which often makes for an interesting elaboration. I believe, more often than not, that this has been true in ENT with T’Pol.
                  
                  I do not ascribe to this notion that all Vulcans must always fit the exact mold, or artistic purpose, that the original creative minds envisioned. This is pointlessly narrow-minded in my opinion and it doesn't serve Trek well. But, for the purpose of discussion, let me assume your almost religious 'canon' attitude toward the Trek narrative. Even accepting this notion that things should not run contrary to the original creative minds, I don't see that T'Pol characterization is incompatible with what has gone before; because she has clearly been identified as being an individual with a minority philosophy (and though suppositional, perhaps rare physiologically). Trek has done this with other races too - as I pointed out before, we have seen pacifist Klingons and non-xenophobic 'liberal' Romulans. Do you object to this?
                  
                  So why be so absolutist about the Vulcans?
                  
                  
                  
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                  • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                    By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:46:39 on Sep 12, 2004

                    Quote:
                    
                    The specific quote you have made here was my response to the following comment:
                    
                    Quote:Mental coherency must truly frustrate you.
                    
                    Since what I was responding to had nothing to do with characters in Trek why would I respond about characters in Trek?
                    
                    Did you somehow miss the fact that this all started from TRexx's comment:
                    
                    "The simple fact is that you are intellectually incapable of perceiving storytelling specifications that were required (by Roddenberry) for all Star Trek writers. These specifications were known even to the actors, e.g. as noted by Leonard Nimoy."
                    
                    And you merely dismissed it all with Braga-like labels with respect to Roddenberry.
                    
                    Quote:
                    
                    Elsewhere in my discussion with this individual I have talked at length about the character at issue. I argued that T'Pol represents a non-mainstream Vulcan, and that this represents an interesting elaboration of Vulcan society.
                    
                    However within the realm of story-telling and fiction, this sort of "non mainstream" against what has been shown for a very long time in quite detail, regarding a "norm", needs elaboration by the character. And the fact that in eps like ENT "Fusion" where we meet Vulcans who have very overtly rejected the "norm" and tell us about it, it is quite clear that what they are doing IS against the "norm". Similarly other Vulcans such as Sybok - where a scene is crafted at the beginning of TFF to underscore this quite dramatically by showing the actions of Sybok as he does his "let me feel your pain" thing, and then talks about his plans, and finally, removes his hood to reveal his pointed ears... And the pathetic figure out in the desert who he has now recruited remarks in awe "You're a Vulcan..." and Sybok smiles and then, without any "possesion" or "alien/environmental influence" plot device, heartily laughs... with the scene ending in Sybok's now-maniacal laughter.
                    
                    In these instances, it is quite clear that they are "not the norm" and you have a sense as to why and what their motivations were. Even Ambassador V'Lar in ENT "Fallen Hero" is shown as a "non conventional" Vulcan and she tells you why and eventually spends time with T'Pol - and this was when T'Pol was in her ENT "stereotypical Vulcan" stage of development. Yet V'Lar is STILL considered "Vulcan". And certainly TFF, a film that most fans casually toss aside, was the epitome of having a "non mainstream" Vulcan go through all the machinations that reveal his motivations for why he was the way he was. And supposedly, this whole Sybok plot was considered "apocryphal" (or so Roddenberry was quoted as claiming). But it does just what the T'Pol character in ENT seems incapable of doing.
                    
                    And THAT is why so many of us have complained.
                    
                    With T'Pol, it is a foregone conclusion that she has chosen to "experiment", but NOTHING is done where she tells we, the audience, WHY. And that's because even the writers don't know or really care. Because the "why" (the motivator) would serve to develop the character beyond being the T & A part of the show, where the character is superficially manipulated to appeal to some silly demographic.
                    
                    Ie., the whys and wherefores are drowned out by nonsense like this from ENT "Shadows of P'Jem":
                    
                    
                    
                    Quote:
                    
                    So frankly, the point you are making here is quite groundless.
                    
                    No, your ignoring TRexx's point with a hand-wave was pretty weak as a debate point.
                    
                    Quote:
                    
                    While I appreciate that Leonard Nimoy's contribution to Trek is substantial (and I very much enjoyed TVH - I've watched it probably 20 or more time over the last couple decades – I can’t believe its been almost twenty years!) I do not believe that the elaboration of Vulcans in ENT is incompatible with his or, more generally, the rest of earlier Trek.
                    
                    The "problem" with the "elaboration" is its superficiality. If one wants to reimagine, as has been done with Vulcans in ENT, then there needs to be a plausible exposition as to why the behavior has "changed" or what is behind this behavior that would lead to what we see in the "future" from the previous series. THAT is what is missing here that could have salvaged whatever you claim they were doing, which IMHO was not that at all. And that's because if one doesn't even have the grounding for which to make a "change" or "alternative take", then one can't do such in any believable fashion.
                    
                    This is why I have pointed out in other posts regarding how the novel-writers have handled it where they have introduced all sorts of "alternative" histories and backstories in Trek, but accompany that with a full fleshing out of the whys and wherefores. And thus these little deviations can plausibly tie back into the universe that is the "known" for Vulcans.
                    
                    Quote:
                    
                    I believe instead that ENT provided an interesting new perspective on the Vulcan psyche and society from the eyes of a non-mainstream Vulcan.
                    
                    Yet this so-called "non-mainstream Vulcan", does litte or no commenting about her experiences, whether to other characters or via a personal log. Thus it's all nonsense and superficial. And it was only after the complaints began to rise to a fever pitch when characters were FINALLY crafted to notice her behavior oddiites and to have her "admit" onscreen through throw-away dialog, that she was "experimenting". But sadly, this was silly. I know it was bandaid stuff, but there would have been NO NEED for "bandaids" if this had been planned beforehand. And it couldn't have been "planned" because I have noted before elsewhere, that NONE of these writers ever wrote a Vulcan-focussed episode in a Star Trek series. THAT was left to others.
                    
                    Quote:
                    
                    Looking at an established perspective (at an individual or societal level) from a decidedly different one is a common writing methodology which often makes for an interesting elaboration. I believe, more often than not, that this has been true in ENT with T’Pol.
                    
                    However we, the audience, never got any "elaboration" from the character herself, regarding what she was doing and why, including what prompted her, after some 60+ years of life, to do this... other than a silly "mind-rape" that was meaningless because its stated effects were inconsistent with what should normally happen based on the the biology of Vulcans.
                    
                    Quote:
                    
                    I do not ascribe to this notion that all Vulcans must always fit the exact mold, or artistic purpose, that the original creative minds envisioned.
                    
                    And this is the usual cop-out answer because as has been noted numerable times, neither do true Vulcan fans believe that all Vulcans are "alike". However being grounded in the variety of Vulcan characters shown over the past nearly 4 decades, I see ENT Vulcans as monolithic stereotypes, developed from the superficial minds of the writers, in order to "showcase" T'Pol as the "ultimate" Vulcan. And this is just incredulous. It's like creating a painting that is all black and then flicking a spot of "color" on it and saying "The base of this painting is how Vulcans are, but this spot of color is our "enlightened" Vulcan in the manner that they "should" be".
                    
                    Quote:
                    
                    This is pointlessly narrow-minded in my opinion and it doesn't serve Trek well.
                    
                    No, endlessly supporting this superficial nonsense is what has brought this show and the franchise to the literal brink of destruction. It's the laughing stock of the science fiction world. When I visit the forums of the fandom of other sci fi shows, they talk about ENT like a dog. It's damn sad. And this goes beyond the typical Star Wars fans who have routinely bashed Trek for decades. This is from boards for other shows. And I even saw some political conservative discussion forum actually bring up ENT (the "new republic" one or something). I mean geez.
                    
                    Quote:
                    
                    But, for the purpose of discussion, let me assume your almost religious 'canon' attitude toward the Trek narrative.
                    
                    Why would you "assume" anything? This has been the problem with the attitude of many fans and the showrunners and it is doing nothing but turning more and more people off when you insult the fans as B & B have done.
                    
                    Quote:
                    
                    Even accepting this notion that things should not run contrary to the original creative minds, I don't see that T'Pol characterization is incompatible with what has gone before; because she has clearly been identified as being an individual with a minority philosophy (and though suppositional, perhaps rare physiologically).
                    
                    Again you parrot a perception that has been soundly discredited. Perhaps you should change your tune.
                    
                    Quote:
                    
                    Trek has done this with other races too - as I pointed out before, we have seen pacifist Klingons and non-xenophobic 'liberal' Romulans. Do you object to this?
                    
                    You don't read my posts do you. It's amazing. ;-)
                    
                    Quote:
                    
                    So why be so absolutist about the Vulcans?
                    
                    Why are you so embracing of stupidity for ratings? Try doing a search around here and this time, READ what I have written about Vulcans. There's nothing "absolutist" about it.
                    
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                    "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
                    ----
                    "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

                    
                    

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                    • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                      By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:07:05 on Sep 12, 2004

                      Quote:
                      Did you somehow miss the fact that this all started from TRexx's comment:
                      
                      "The simple fact is that you are intellectually incapable of perceiving storytelling specifications that were required (by Roddenberry) for all Star Trek writers. These specifications were known even to the actors, e.g. as noted by Leonard Nimoy."
                      
                      You guy's keep taking me around in circles. I have addressed this extraordinary misstatement countless times now. I do not believe that today's writers need to be constrained by Roddenberry's specifications. This almost ideological stand seems narrow-minded, pointless and would consign Trek, IMO, to a respective, overly self-derivative demise.
                      
                      I maintain that introducing a new perspective onto Vulcan society was an interesting and valid direction.
                      
                      Quote:
                      Yet this so-called "non-mainstream Vulcan", does little or no commenting about her experiences, whether to other characters or via a personal log.
                      
                      Not true, there have been many episodes that have have demonstrated how the Vulcan elaborations fit into the bigger Trek Vulcan picture, painted by previous series. Several of these also demonstrate that T'Pol is an uncommon Vulcan, or non-mainstream one. (Voice over narrative and internal dialogue are generally considered a cop-out by the way) For example, T'Pol's conflict with Vulcan authorities over the ostracization of Vulcans infected with the mind-meld spread disease and the larger oppression of mind-melding vulcan subculture (Fusion and Stigma). Also in Fusion we learn that T'Pol is manifesting a sympathy for a Vulcan subculture which espouses a belief that (some?) Vulcans can manage dealing with their emotions - although it clearly comes with some effort and some of these individuals are not entirely succeeding. There's also the example of The Andorian Incident where T'Pol is shocked at her world's militaristic subterfuge.
                      
                      Quote:
                      The "problem" with the "elaboration" is its superficiality. If one wants to reimagine, as has been done with Vulcans in ENT, then there needs to be a plausible exposition as to why the behavior has "changed" or what is behind this behavior that would lead to what we see in the "future" from the previous series.
                      
                      I don't think the elaboration has been superficial at all. The examples I have cited above are only a few of the many that have been provided. They both demonstrate the dominant Vulcan mindset and how it is that T'Pol and several of the other 'liberal' Vulcans we have met are not part of the mainstream. Perhaps this has not been articulated or explored as much as you would like it to be, or as much as you believe is necessary, but it has been clearly indicated. I think it would be interesting to learn more about what underlies these differences too, but I don't feel that it is a fatal flaw in ENT that they have not expanded on it more.
                      
                      I do, BTW, find somethings wrt T'Pol troubling - for example I think it is quite wierd and inconsistent that the story line regarding neural disease T'Pol was infected with has been apparently abandoned. I attribute this, rightly or wrongly, to poor ratings engender chaos behind the scenes.
                      
                      Quote:
                      And this is the usual cop-out answer because as has been noted numerable times, neither do true Vulcan fans believe that all Vulcans are "alike". However being grounded in the variety of Vulcan characters shown over the past nearly 4 decades, I see ENT Vulcans as monolithic stereotypes, developed from the superficial minds of the writers, in order to "showcase" T'Pol as the "ultimate" Vulcan. And this is just incredulous. It's like creating a painting that is all black and then flicking a spot of "color" on it and saying "The base of this painting is how Vulcans are, but this spot of color is our "enlightened" Vulcan in the manner that they "should" be".
                      
                      Please look back at what I said - it's certainly not what you allege. I don't doubt that you believe there is variation amongst Vulcans. What I am getting at is that you believe that we should always stay within the boundaries that Roddenberry et al have laid out. You take it almost as an orthodoxy that should not be disobeyed. Here is where I disagree with you. I think giving us a new perspective on Vulcans by introducing an oppressed minority that allows us to see the ugly underside of Vulcan society is wonderful. As long as the elaboration isn't directly incompatible with what we have learned before about Vulcans, it serves to provide us with a new, interesting and valid perspective on one of the staples of Trek.
                      
                      Quote:
                      You don't read my posts do you. It's amazing. ;-)
                      
                      Well, I don't recall exactly what your point was. If you feel that I missed something please restate it or tell me what thread it was in.
                      
                      Quote:
                      No, endlessly supporting this superficial nonsense is what has brought this show and the franchise to the literal brink of destruction. It's the laughing stock of the science fiction world. When I visit the forums of the fandom of other sci fi shows, they talk about ENT like a dog. It's damn sad. And this goes beyond the typical Star Wars fans who have routinely bashed Trek for decades. This is from boards for other shows. And I even saw some political conservative discussion forum actually bring up ENT (the "new republic" one or something). I mean geez.
                      
                      Well, I am completely unconcerned how the majority Star Wars fans etc feel about Trek, or ENT specifically. As many great thinkers, such Samuel Clemens, have so often pointed out, having the masses on your side only confirms something negative about your opinion. Although this is not a universal truism by any means, I don't think that the opinion of the masses should sway me in what I think.
                      
                      Perhaps you are getting at the ratings problem that may result in. I guess this is relevant in terms of the viability of the series, but its sort of at a tangent to the subject at hand.
                      
                      Quote:
                      Again you parrot a perception that has been soundly discredited. Perhaps you should change your tune.
                      
                      No, I'm communicating my own perception. I don't believe I have heard anyone else raise it before - not that I believe I'm unique in holding to it, I just haven't heard it before. I have also yet to see anyone discredit it.
                      
                      Quote:
                      Try doing a search around here and this time, READ what I have written about Vulcans. There's nothing "absolutist" about it.
                      
                      It's absolutist in the sense that it won’t allow for the valid thing that ENT has done with Vulcans. Your point, correct me if I am wrong, primarily rests on a perceived need, as TRexx has espoused, to narrowly stay within the 'specification' laid out by many of the founders of Trek and especially Gene Rodenberry. I don’t agree that it is necessary to religiously follow this specification. In fact I think it is just silly. Its the same sort of silliness that can be seen in people who in reactionary fear to a new idea ask the frightened question 'What would the Founding Fathers have said/thought?'. As if they were something more than human beings, who have a greater right to be heard throughout the ages than anyone else. I quite like what Gene conceived of, but I don't feel that we should be beholden to him in a way that restricts going somewhere else with Trek other than where he had 'specified'.
                      
                      
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                      'It was beautiful, we were selling rich women their fat asses back to them' - Tylor Durden

                      
                      

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                      • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:17:51 on Sep 12, 2004

                        Quote:
                        
                        You guy's keep taking me around in circles. I have addressed this extraordinary misstatement countless times now. I do not believe that today's writers need to be constrained by Roddenberry's specifications. This almost ideological stand seems narrow-minded, pointless and would consign Trek, IMO, to a respective, overly self-derivative demise.
                        
                        Did you ever stop to read what Michael Piller, and I need not even tell you who he is, said about Roddenberry's so-called "box"? Here, I'll include it here (taken from right here on this website):
                        
                        "I used to call it 'Roddenberry's box'," he told Star Trek Monthly. "A lot of writers simply couldn't stand the claustrophobia of Roddenberry's universe. They didn't understand how to write stories that didn't have human conflict in them."
                        
                        Rather than seeing it as a problem, Piller saw it as a challenge. "I learned very early in the game that by setting these boundaries Roddenberry was forcing us to be more creative than we might ordinarily be. You couldn't just find some tired old human story and do a retread. You really had to work hard to find a way to make it work in Roddenberry's universe, because it put these restrictions for you. It made us tell better, more original, unique stories."
                        
                        "The years with STAR TREK, and my 40's, were the highlight of my life," Piller said "I had a great decade with STAR TREK." Piller revealed that he had been a fan of TNG before becoming a staff writer, and that he had suggested to Roddenberry some ideas about developing the show's characters. "[Roddenberry] said, 'Don't worry about the science fiction', and he was right about that, although it took me a few months to learn, and it was a trial by fire," Piller said. "
                        
                        And the above highlighted part is the KEY.
                        
                        This was a fascinating perspective to see in relation to Trek and by golly, the intended result DID mean that they could come up with stuff that wasn't so damn cliche. It was something that hadn't really been done in science fiction shows before and it helped to allow both a TOS and a TNG to stand apart. And certainly Piller's take on it helped DS9 to go where no Trek had gone before but still try to stay "true" to the Roddenberry vision - sortof manipulating the "box" in the fashion that Piller describes above and certainly Ira Behr has remarked about this sort of thing.
                        
                        But what has happened since Piller left? Derivative. Derivative. and Cliche. And worse, during a time when the show came under a network, downright character manipulation for ratings.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        I maintain that introducing a new perspective onto Vulcan society was an interesting and valid direction.
                        
                        "New perspectives" have been added to EVERY Star Trek episode or film that included them. This isn't something "new". What WAS "new" was the total LACK of any knowledge of Vulcans. Crap from a Braga who was quoted as saying (and I have posted this numerous times taken from here):
                        
                        "Also, we've barely seen any Vulcans. If you tally up the episodes of Star Trek, from all the series that had Vulcans, we've only spent some time with Spock [Leonard Nimoy] and Tuvok [Tim Russ]. But we know very little about Vulcan culture. We know a little here and there. So we wanted to explore it. We wanted to explore the paradoxes of it and show how interesting it is. Some people are like, 'That's not Star Trek! That's not the Vulcans!' Well, who's to say what it is?
                        
                        And I have had post after post after post, since September of last year, where in response to the above about "But we know very little about Vulcan culture.", I have filled threads overflowing with what we DO know about "Vulcan Culture". It could probably fill a whole book. But it is his laziness and refusal to do a little research, that has brought on this problem.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Quote:Yet this so-called "non-mainstream Vulcan", does little or no commenting about her experiences, whether to other characters or via a personal log.
                        
                        Not true, there have been many episodes that have have demonstrated how the Vulcan elaborations fit into the bigger Trek Vulcan picture, painted by previous series.
                        
                        Really? I have all of the ENTs on tape and have watched them a number of times to get my quotes here on this website for debate. She does no such because they never knew what the "bigger Trek Vulcan picture" WAS. What it WAS, is what I have posted about in numerous threads this past year.
                        
                        How can they "elaborate" with nonsense about the use of some plot device like a "mind meld" or "addictive substance" like Trellium-D, supposedly "allowing" a Vulcan to "experience emotions"? Vulcans have always had emotions. And these are suppressed by biofeed-back like techniques taught to the species in the form of special "meditations".
                        
                        This is why I have dismissed what they have done because not only has it lacked any meaning, but it is not even consistent with something as basic as Vulcans and "emotion".
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Several of these also demonstrate that T'Pol is an uncommon Vulcan, or non-mainstream one. (Voice over narrative and internal dialogue are generally considered a cop-out by the way)
                        
                        Really? Then you consider that DS9 "In the Pale Moonlight" was a "cop-out", where the entire episode was nothing but a narration of a personal log by Sisko that helps to flesh out some very "Human" decision-making processes that compound upon themselves to cause the character some remarkable stress?
                        
                        There are a variety of dramatic plot devices that have been used for centuries to elaborate about what goes on in a character's mind when that character is not conversing with another character. Whether it be a "dream", a "diary", a "monologue", a "personal log", a "letter", "telepathic contact by another", of course the "mind meld" in Trek (which relates to telepathy), or even a "fool" or "aside character" who stands off to the side of the stage (to do an "aside"), where he narrates to the audience some information about that character that other characters are unaware of.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        For example, T'Pol's conflict with Vulcan authorities over the ostracization of Vulcans infected with the mind-meld spread disease and the larger oppression of mind-melding vulcan subculture (Fusion and Stigma).
                        
                        The entirety of ENT "Stigma", should be considered non-canon. It took a somewhat seminal subject (AIDS), and I say "somewhat" because the disease is nothing "new" and has been known for some 20 years, and then crafts a dramatic metaphorical story around how one might acquire such a "disease" and innocently be "stigmatized" for it, not due to some "socially unacceptable practice", and it applies this to Vulcans. And THAT was the mistake because the method for transfer of the disease, has been a part and parcel of Vulcan culture, "since the time of the beginning" as T'Pau states in TOS "Amok Time".
                        
                        To equate "mind-melds" with a sexual practice and then twist the whole fabric of Vulcans and their genetics with respect to telepathy, was the straw that broke the camel's back and indicated that not only were they clueless about anything that came before, but didn't care and had an intent of reimagining the Vulcan archetype to fit their own needs.
                        
                        And thus we have a Manny Coto now talking about a "Vulcan Civil War" to try to correct all this damage.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Also in Fusion we learn that T'Pol is manifesting a sympathy for a Vulcan subculture which espouses a belief that (some?) Vulcans can manage dealing with their emotions - although it clearly comes with some effort and some of these individuals are not entirely succeeding.
                        
                        Yet we have nonsense from these Vulcans about "mind melds" having been "abandoned". Ie., in ENT "Fusion" you have this dialog exchange:
                        
                        T'Pol: "Mind meld?"
                        
                        Tolaris: "It's an ancient technique. It was abandoned centuries
                        ago. But we discovered that it can help us access our emotions."
                        
                        T'Pol: "How does it work?"
                        
                        Tolaris: "I'd begin by creating a telepathic link... We'd be able
                        to share our, our memories, our thoughts... In essence, we would
                        become... one mind. It's quite an experience but... it is
                        profoundly intimate. Are you prepared for that? If you'd like,
                        we could try a more traditional form of guided meditation, but it
                        wouldn't be nearly as effective."
                        
                        T'Pol: "Proceed."
                        
                        This is nonsense. A Vulcan doesn't do "mind melds" to "access emotions". In this Braga "turn-things-on-their-ear" universe of Vulcans, a Vulcan now ends up with "biologically suppressed" emotion that needs some plot device to "explore" or "access". It's ridiculous.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        There's also the example of The Andorian Incident where T'Pol is shocked at her world's militaristic subterfuge.
                        
                        And ENT "The Andorian Incident" is another in the faulty development of ENT Vulcans by showing hostilities by them against Andorians.
                        
                        And all this does is underscore what I said about the all-black painting of a faulty portrayal with T'Pol emphasized as the little lost sheep. It's an insult rather than any type of "elaboration".
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        I don't think the elaboration has been superficial at all. The examples I have cited above are only a few of the many that have been provided.
                        
                        The examples have no motivators for why she wants to do something "different" other than inconsistent Vulcan behavior. It is contrived and the result is her being systematically physically brain damaged in order to make her into a plaything for Humans.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        They both demonstrate the dominant Vulcan mindset and how it is that T'Pol and several of the other 'liberal' Vulcans we have met are not part of the mainstream.
                        
                        And the contrived "dominant Vulcan mindset" in ENT is exactly what many fans such as I myself have ranted about. It IS contrived.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Perhaps this has not been articulated or explored as much as you would like it to be, or as much as you believe is necessary, but it has been clearly indicated. I think it would be interesting to learn more about what underlies these differences too, but I don't feel that it is a fatal flaw in ENT that they have not expanded on it more.
                        
                        The entire pallet of Vulcans in ENT is fatally flawed. That is why what she does or says is meaningless.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        I do, BTW, find somethings wrt T'Pol troubling - for example I think it is quite wierd and inconsistent that the story line regarding neural disease T'Pol was infected with has been apparently abandoned. I attribute this, rightly or wrongly, to poor ratings engender chaos behind the scenes.
                        
                        I think I have pointed out in threads here about how the T'Pol character has literally been exposed to plots where she receives literal brain damage. Whether it be from a "Pa'nar Syndrome" in ENT "Stigma" or a failed "bioscan" by an Expanse prostitute by the name of "Raijin" in ENT "Raijin", or Trellium-D, in ENT "Impulse" or ENT "Damage".
                        
                        And what this does, is in a very cruel and misogynistic way, attempt to make the T'Pol character closer to a "Spock" (which is who she is mirroring), by forcing emotions onto her as a supposed "fulll Vulcan". In the case of Spock, he was a "half-breed" and thus as noted in Nimoy's quote above, is a conflicted character, continually battling the competing sides of his biology. And you'll notice that throughout Trek, you have alot of these "half-" characters - from a Spock, to a B'Elanna Torres. And in each case, stories are crafted to show the dramatis personae that is the result within this one character.
                        
                        Therefore, T'Pol is now made into a "conflicted character" by the very nature of this mistreatment by the writers and the sorts of conflicted character stories can supposedly now be crafted for her.
                        
                        The problem here is that NONE of this "brain damage" crap was needed to have the character eventually reach a point of indecision about what to do with her life and where to go. But the writers were too impatient, and thus manipulate the character in a very cruel way. And I say this by pointing out a more natural progression as can be seen in ENT "Strange New World" and ENT "Breaking the Ice" - although in the latter case, the presence of the stalking Vulcan Captain who sits like a wooden statue in the Captain's mess, neither partaking in food nor drink with the rest, was a nonsensical plot.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Please look back at what I said - it's certainly not what you allege. I don't doubt that you believe there is variation amongst Vulcans.
                        
                        You "doubt"? Why don't you go through this thread.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        What I am getting at is that you believe that we should always stay within the boundaries that Roddenberry et al have laid out.
                        
                        What I am getting at is that I believe that the "boundaries" that were defined actually allow for story-telling that goes beyond the "cliche".
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        You take it almost as an orthodoxy that should not be disobeyed.
                        
                        But what you miss, is that it is "disobeyed" all the time. ;-) But not directly and so sloppily as ENT has done.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Here is where I disagree with you. I think giving us a new perspective on Vulcans by introducing an oppressed minority that allows us to see the ugly underside of Vulcan society is wonderful.
                        
                        But in the "turn things on their ear" mentality, the so-called "suppressed minority" was developed from nothing that was in the canon about Vulcans - particularly its physiology.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        As long as the elaboration isn't directly incompatible with what we have learned before about Vulcans, it serves to provide us with a new, interesting and valid perspective on one of the staples of Trek.
                        
                        And it HAS been totally incompatible because rather than focus on "social", it actually changed the biology of the species. And I don't understand what is so difficult for you to understand about changing "biology".
                        
                        It is as if we know that Humans generally have 2 arms and 2 legs and aside from genetic defects, all Humans are like this and this is generally established for a particular TV show's universe. And then we suddenly have an episode that says - "No, Humans have 3 legs and bipedal Humans are in the 'minority'". And anyone who complains, the developers of such calls them "continuity pornographers" and other such nonsense.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Quote:You don't read my posts do you. It's amazing. ;-)
                        
                        Well, I don't recall exactly what your point was. If you feel that I missed something please restate it or tell me what thread it was in.
                        
                        I have linked to one of the latest above.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Well, I am completely unconcerned how the majority Star Wars fans etc feel about Trek, or ENT specifically. As many great thinkers, such Samuel Clemens, have so often pointed out, having the masses on your side only confirms something negative about your opinion. Although this is not a universal truism by any means, I don't think that the opinion of the masses should sway me in what I think.
                        
                        That's why I pointed out NOT including them. I'm talking about people who are fans of Bakula in shows like "Quantum Leap" or fans of Stargate, etc.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Perhaps you are getting at the ratings problem that may result in. I guess this is relevant in terms of the viability of the series, but its sort of at a tangent to the subject at hand.
                        
                        Not at all because in general, people who like science fiction tend to watch it on TV if it is available. Thus many Trek fans watch the other concurrently running science fiction shows and vice-versa. And certainly, when it comes to this show receiving awards such as Hugos, those are done by the science fiction community and it is prudent that this "community" feels that Trek has not totally lost its way. And it seems at this point, that it has.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Quote:Again you parrot a perception that has been soundly discredited. Perhaps you should change your tune.
                        
                        No, I'm communicating my own perception. I don't believe I have heard anyone else raise it before - not that I believe I'm unique in holding to it, I just haven't heard it before. I have also yet to see anyone discredit it.
                        
                        It has been discredited with a myriad of citations that you continually dismiss.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Quote:Try doing a search around here and this time, READ what I have written about Vulcans. There's nothing "absolutist" about it.
                        
                        It's absolutist in the sense that it won’t allow for the valid thing that ENT has done with Vulcans.
                        
                        On the contrary - I have accepted the presence of a V'Lar within ENT. Yet I disagree with ENT when the stories start messing around with Vulcan biology in order to somehow underscore some "social issue" or when they use age-old stereotypes that denigrate women in order to make this character appeal to a demographic. That cheapens the character, the species, AND the show.
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        Your point, correct me if I am wrong, primarily rests on a perceived need, as TRexx has espoused, to narrowly stay within the 'specification' laid out by many of the founders of Trek and especially Gene Rodenberry.
                        
                        You miss the point of the "need" to remain consistent. And when an "outlyer" is introduced, to show what motivates the outlyer in a meaningful way. And this hasn't happened in ENT. What HAS happened is contrived "brain damage" in order to make the character an "outlyer".
                        
                        Quote:
                        
                        I don’t agree that it is necessary to religiously follow this specification. In fact I think it is just silly. Its the same sort of silliness that can be seen in people who in reactionary fear to a new idea ask the frightened question 'What would the Founding Fathers have said/thought?'. As if they were something more than human beings, who have a greater right to be heard throughout the ages than anyone else. I quite like what Gene conceived of, but I don't feel that we should be beholden to him in a way that restricts going somewhere else with Trek other than where he had 'specified'.
                        
                        I would hope you re-read what I quoted from Piller above and see part of the point of the "box" and why now, not "following" some set of "restrictions" has helped to make Trek lose its way and become not only derivative, but desperate to recapture an audience through mindless contrived titilation plots and toilet humor.
                        
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                        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
                        ----
                        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

                        
                        

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                        Quote

                        • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                          By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:04:05 on Sep 12, 2004

                          Quote:
                          "I learned very early in the game that by setting these boundaries Roddenberry was forcing us to be more creative than we might ordinarily be. You couldn't just find some tired old human story and do a retread. You really had to work hard to find a way to make it work in Roddenberry's universe, because it put these restrictions for you. It made us tell better, more original, unique stories."
                          
                          That Rodenberry exercised control over the writers and other creative source during TOS and some of TNG, isn't at issue. What is at issue is whether his 'specifications' should forever constrain Trek. I believe that it should not. Please cite only when it is relevant, otherwise it pointlessly takes up vertical geography.
                          
                          Quote:
                          And ENT "The Andorian Incident" is another in the faulty development of ENT Vulcans by showing hostilities by them against Andorians. ...
                          
                          All this does is underscore what I said about the all-black painting of a faulty portrayal with T'Pol emphasized as the little lost sheep. It's an insult rather than any type of "elaboration".
                          
                          How is ENT faulty wrt established future Andorian-Vulcan relations? It was established in TOS that the Andorians (or at least those in diplomatic circles) hated the Vulcans, so why is ENT inconsistent with this?
                          
                          Quote:
                          Really? I have all of the ENTs on tape and have watched them a number of times to get my quotes here on this website for debate. She does no such because they never knew what the "bigger Trek Vulcan picture" WAS. What it WAS, is what I have posted about in numerous threads this past year.
                          
                          Well, I'm sorry if I missed your serial treatise over the past year, but I contend, as I have described, that ENT has largely fit its Vulcan culture into the bigger Trek picture.
                          
                          Quote:
                          The entirety of ENT "Stigma", should be considered non-canon. [...] And THAT was the mistake because the method for transfer of the disease, has been a part and parcel of Vulcan culture, "since the time of the beginning" as T'Pau states in TOS "Amok Time".
                          
                          T'Pau's statement isn't at odds with [i]Stigma[ie] at all. It may well have been a practice of the ancients, but during the time of ENT it had largely become stigmatized. In the future, as we have been told, the practice is once again embraced (at least by some, but who knows how many?) So where is the inconsistency? Is this a case of failing to remain within the constraints that Rodenberry set, perhaps so, but so be it. It’s a valid and interesting elaboration of Vulcan culture, and that’s ultimately what’s important.
                          
                          Quote:
                          The examples have no motivators for why she wants to do something "different" other than inconsistent Vulcan behavior. It is contrived and the result is her being systematically physically brain damaged in order to make her into a plaything for Humans.
                          
                          I agree that T'Pol's behaviour is different than established later Vulcan characters, but I don't see it as at all incompatible with other Trek. She is a non-mainstream Vulcan and so her behaviour is perfectly compatible with he mainstream Vulcans to whom we have been exposed.
                          
                          Quote:
                          the so-called "suppressed minority" was developed from nothing that was in the canon about Vulcans - particularly its physiology.
                          
                          Elaborations don't have to be a direct product of what we have learned before - that's what makes them an elaboration. Deriving largely from what has been established previously is more of on an interpolation really. ENT is largely compatible with previous Trek though, and that makes it valid.
                          
                          Quote:
                          And it HAS been totally incompatible because rather than focus on "social", it actually changed the biology of the species.
                          
                          It has done no such thing.
                          
                          Quote:
                          This is nonsense. A Vulcan doesn't do "mind melds" to "access emotions". In this Braga "turn-things-on-their-ear" universe of Vulcans, a Vulcan now ends up with "biologically suppressed" emotion that needs some plot device to "explore" or "access". It's ridiculous.
                          
                          The point of mind melds -and T'Pol's use of TD for that matter- was never communicate to be a means of overcoming an inability to experience emotion. In fact, T'Pol and other characters spoke to the fact that Vulcans have to practice meditation in order to suppress their emotions. Mind melds and TD were explored by some Vulcans in ENT as a means to experience emotions while maintaining control.
                          
                          Quote:
                          Perhaps you are getting at the ratings problem that may result in. I guess this is relevant in terms of the viability of the series, but it’s sort of at a tangent to the subject at hand.
                          
                          Not at all because in general, people who like science fiction tend to watch it on TV if it is available ... and it is prudent that this "community" feels that Trek has not totally lost its way. And it seems at this point, that it has.
                          
                          No I mean it is at a tangent wrt whether or not ENT's depiction of Vulcans is defensible or not. You are talkign about a sort of public opinion matter. Which, although interesting I guess, is not really relevant to the subject of whether ENT's portrayal of Vulcans is reasonable.
                          
                          Quote:
                          It has been discredited with a myriad of citations that you continually dismiss.
                          
                          For good reason, it doesn't hold up to reason IMO.
                          
                          Quote:
                          I would hope you re-read what I quoted from Piller above and see part of the point of the "box" and why now, not "following" some set of "restrictions" has helped to make Trek lose its way and become not only derivative, but desperate to recapture an audience through mindless contrived titilation plots and toilet humor.
                          
                          All art follows some sort of constraints or it generally falls apart because it has no form. For example, in poetry we have haiku and sonnets - these forms have rules which make for expressions of genius because they require a sort of creative problem solving to succeed at adhering to their structure while expressing an idea. But successful serial story telling doesn't require the sort immutable 'specifications' that Gene Rodenberry laid down. In fact, Trek needs to evolve its perspective over time in the manner that ENT has with Vulcans. I don't think ENT is without blemish of course, especially as regards S3, but I believe it went in a valid direction wrt Vulcans in general.
                          
                          
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                          'It was beautiful, we were selling rich women their fat asses back to them' - Tylor Durden

                          
                          

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                          • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                            By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:28:00 on Sep 13, 2004

                            Quote:
                            That Rodenberry exercised control over the writers and other creative source during TOS and some of TNG, isn't at issue. What is at issue is whether his 'specifications' should forever constrain Trek. I believe that it should not. Please cite only when it is relevant, otherwise it pointlessly takes up vertical geography.
                            
                            The point is Roddenberry's ideas and constraints should be honored to at least some extent, which has not been done by Enterprise much, especially where Vulcans are concerned.
                            
                            Quote:
                            How is ENT faulty wrt established future Andorian-Vulcan relations? It was established in TOS that the Andorians (or at least those in diplomatic circles) hated the Vulcans, so why is ENT inconsistent with this?
                            
                            If you are talking about Journey to Babel you really need to go back and watch that. Oh, but maybe I'm being a continuity pornographer for asking you to actually watch the episode you are referring to?
                            
                            Quote:
                            Well, I'm sorry if I missed your serial treatise over the past year, but I contend, as I have described, that ENT has largely fit its Vulcan culture into the bigger Trek picture.
                            
                            Like hammering a square peg into a round hole, hoping long-time fans wouldn't notice...
                            
                            Quote:
                            T'Pau's statement isn't at odds with [i]Stigma[ie] at all. It may well have been a practice of the ancients, but during the time of ENT it had largely become stigmatized. In the future, as we have been told, the practice is once again embraced (at least by some, but who knows how many?) So where is the inconsistency? Is this a case of failing to remain within the constraints that Rodenberry set, perhaps so, but so be it. It’s a valid and interesting elaboration of Vulcan culture, and that’s ultimately what’s important.
                            
                            Well, Jad pretty much handled this one, showing four pictures of senior-citizen Vulcans either eqiupped with mind-melding capabilities, or spouting philosophy about controlling one's emotions. But of course the latter must be bull because the likes of Tuvok shouldn't have any trouble handling his emotions unless he had brain damage. You know, like T'Pol. So Tuvok should really see a brain surgeon rather than a philosopher/teacher, shouldn't he?
                            
                            (Set tone for irony)
                            
                            Ah, but of course Manny Coto will fix all this with this stupid Vulcan civil war nonsense. Though how Vulcans-who espouse pacifism-will be able to fight for peace, is beyond me. Unless they follow the way of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. But probably not, because that won't be exciting enough for B & B.
                            
                            (Set tone for extreme irony)
                            
                            And if we're really lucky we'll get to see more T'Pol decon rubdown scenes and bare ass shots as she fights for peace.
                            
                            Quote:
                            I agree that T'Pol's behaviour is different than established later Vulcan characters, but I don't see it as at all incompatible with other Trek.
                            
                            Considering how you completely botched the Journey to Babel reference I'm wondering just how much other 'Trek you have watched. Certainly where Vulcans are concerned the most important 'Trek is TOS.
                            
                            Quote:
                            She is a non-mainstream Vulcan and so her behaviour is perfectly compatible with he mainstream Vulcans to whom we have been exposed.
                            
                            Being "non-mainstream" is nothing new, and it was done much better by Larry Luckinbill as Sybok. Oh, but Sybok must have been brain damaged, too. Just ignore what Spock said about Sybok's background in STV...
                            
                            Quote:
                            Elaborations don't have to be a direct product of what we have learned before - that's what makes them an elaboration.
                            
                            Elaborate: Planned or done with careful attention to numerous details or parts.
                            
                            You are right, the word elaborate has nothing to do with what we've seen on Enterprise.
                            
                            Quote:
                            Deriving largely from what has been established previously is more of on an interpolation really.
                            
                            Interpolate: To change or falsify (a text) by introducing addition or untrue material.
                            
                            Yeah, that pretty much sums up Enterprise.
                            
                            Quote:
                            ENT is largely compatible with previous Trek though, and that makes it valid.
                            
                            And my bullshit meter just broke.
                            
                            Quote:
                            It has done no such thing.
                            
                            Vulcans never had to be brain damaged to experience emotions before, yet now T'Pol does in order to do so. That sounds like a gross re-writing of Vulcan biology to me.
                            
                            Vulcans are stronger than normal humans yet T'Pol has been portrayed as being weaker than everyone around her. In episodes like North Star and Twilight she either has to be rescued by the big, strong men or she is helpless beneath rubble. This, of course, is all part of B & B's women-hating program.
                            
                            Quote:
                            The point of mind melds -and T'Pol's use of TD for that matter- was never communicate to be a means of overcoming an inability to experience emotion. In fact, T'Pol and other characters spoke to the fact that Vulcans have to practice meditation in order to suppress their emotions. Mind melds and TD were explored by some Vulcans in ENT as a means to experience emotions while maintaining control.
                            
                            First of all, for T'Pol to have never heard of mind melds is bullshit, which they contradicted themselves on in Stigma. T'Pol says in one episode she's never heard of a mind meld, yet she is aware of a disease caused by mind melds, and the stigma of the supposed mind-melding minority?
                            
                            Quote:
                            All art follows some sort of constraints or it generally falls apart because it has no form. For example, in poetry we have haiku and sonnets - these forms have rules which make for expressions of genius because they require a sort of creative problem solving to succeed at adhering to their structure while expressing an idea.
                            
                            That is a very bad example. Read the works of e. e. cummings some time (lack of caps intentional).
                            
                            link
                            
                            Quote:
                            But successful serial story telling doesn't require the sort immutable 'specifications' that Gene Rodenberry laid down.
                            
                            But perhaps successful Star Trek storytelling does, otherwise why has the show gone from twelve million viewers to less than four? Why move the show to Friday night? Why cut the number of episodes?
                            
                            Oh, but that's just the majority speaking and the majority doesn't know what they are talking about, according to Sam Clemens.
                            
                            Clemens was a good writer and a great American, but that doesn't mean everything he said was right. In the end he was a bitter, lonely man and I take everything I read from him with a grain of salt.
                            
                            Quote:
                            In fact, Trek needs to evolve its perspective over time in the manner that ENT has with Vulcans.
                            
                            Again, considering the ratings I would say most people would disagree. And considering it is the 'Trek fans who watch the show, buy movie tickets and purchase various products our voice has some weight. Otherwise Manny Coto wouldn't have gotten the promotion.
                            
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                            To any sound of engines,
                            Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
                            
                            Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep

                            
                            

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                          • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                            By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:16:04 on Sep 13, 2004

                            Quote:
                            
                            That Rodenberry exercised control over the writers and other creative source during TOS and some of TNG, isn't at issue. What is at issue is whether his 'specifications' should forever constrain Trek. I believe that it should not. Please cite only when it is relevant, otherwise it pointlessly takes up vertical geography.
                            
                            LOL You entirely missed the point of what Piller said and even insult the fact that I included the quote. You truly have joined the masses of the clueless sound bite generation!
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            How is ENT faulty wrt established future Andorian-Vulcan relations? It was established in TOS that the Andorians (or at least those in diplomatic circles) hated the Vulcans, so why is ENT inconsistent with this?
                            
                            LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is what I mean by people, including writers like Braga, who not only don't WATCH the episodes, don't even have a clue as to what went on them!!!
                            
                            So you're talking about this guy?
                            
                            
                            
                            whose fake antenna eventually fell off?
                            
                            
                            
                            The so-called "Andorian" who was causing all the havok in TOS "Journey to Babel", an episode written by D.C. Fontana, was an ORION disguised as an Andorian. The REAL Andorians in the episode, are as perplexed about what happened as everyone else, and when under questioning, suggest that Kirk and his investigators look at motivations... "of passion". And we later find that "Thelev" had been planted in the Andorian Diplomatic Corps to eventually disrupt the Babel Conference at Coridan (an important planet with a large dilithium mine - the same planet visited by Archer and T'Pol in ENT "Shadows of P'Jem") where that planet was applying for admission into the Federation. However the Orions wanted to control that planet while everyone ELSE was fighting (IF they had succeeded in setting their plan in motion).
                            
                            Near the end of the ep when they were under attack by the Orion operative's fellow shipmates, Kirk notes:
                            
                            "You're a spy, surgically altered to pass as an Andorian, planted in the ambassador's party to use terror and murder to disrupt us and prepare for this attack."
                            
                            And after the guy dies when he commits suicide, the following occurs in Sick Bay:
                            
                            Kirk: "Bones, Thelev's body will be brought to your lab. I want an autopsy performed as soon as possible."
                            
                            Spock: "I think you'll find that he's an Orion, Doctor."
                            
                            McCoy: "Orion?"
                            
                            Spock: "Intelligence reports that Orion smugglers have been raiding the Coridan system."
                            
                            Kirk: "But what would they gain by an attack on Starfleet?"
                            
                            Sarek: "Mutual suspicion and interplanetary war."
                            
                            Kirk: Yes of course, with Orion carefully neutral. They'd clean up by supplying dilithium to both sides and continue to raid Coridan."
                            
                            And so after not watching any of it, our favorite ENT writers created contrived "hostilities" between the Vulcans and Andorians based on their ignorance and guessing. And they were so sure about their faulty memory of the ep, and went so very far with it, that it is an almost totally unrecoverable error and only underscores why ENT is not Star Trek!! Amazing! They even excluded the prefix "Star Trek" from the name of the show until season 3, remember? ;-)
                            
                            Sorry, you have joined Braga as a total wuss. LOL
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            Well, I'm sorry if I missed your serial treatise over the past year, but I contend, as I have described, that ENT has largely fit its Vulcan culture into the bigger Trek picture.
                            
                            Merely saying a thing and then hand-waving over what people show you regarding WHY ENT is so far off the mark, isn't going to help much I'm afraid. The hypnotic chant isn't going to fix what's broken.
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            T'Pau's statement isn't at odds with Stigma at all. It may well have been a practice of the ancients, but during the time of ENT it had largely become stigmatized.
                            
                            But what you fail to realize, is that the Vulcan's telepathy is primarily done through touch. And it goes beyond the marriage ceremonies and ALSO includes the death ceremonies, where a Vulcan transfers his "Katra" (or essence of all knowledge) to some "keeper"... And it is used for medicinal purposes to do self-healing, etc.
                            
                            Did you not notice that it was used in ENT "The Seventh" on T'Pol (via a flashback) when she was having her memory supressed for her supposed uncontrollable guilt for her role in killing the operative "Jaffen" when she was working for the Vulcan Security Ministry? Of course you didn't. ;-)
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            In the future, as we have been told, the practice is once again embraced (at least by some, but who knows how many?)
                            
                            Heh... it was embraced by those Vulcan Masters at that Monastery facility where she had her memory supressed. ;-)
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            So where is the inconsistency?
                            
                            I just gave you an example that was even within ENT itself. It's amazing, isn't it?
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            Is this a case of failing to remain within the constraints that Rodenberry set, perhaps so, but so be it. It’s a valid and interesting elaboration of Vulcan culture, and that’s ultimately what’s important.
                            
                            No, if you can get up here and insist that the Andorians and Vulcans were at odds with one another based on your faulty memory about TOS "Journey to Babel", you have soundly discredited ANY argument that you might attempt to make.
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            Quote:The examples have no motivators for why she wants to do something "different" other than inconsistent Vulcan behavior. It is contrived and the result is her being systematically physically brain damaged in order to make her into a plaything for Humans.
                            
                            I agree that T'Pol's behaviour is different than established later Vulcan characters, but I don't see it as at all incompatible with other Trek.
                            
                            In the thread that you refuse to look at, there are several characters there who are contemporaries of T'Pol. They are elderly Vulcan Masters who we see during TOS's era.
                            
                            Take a GOOD look at them:
                            
                            T'Pau from TOS "Amok Time"
                            
                            
                            Vulcan Master from TMP
                            
                            
                            T'Lar from TSFS
                            
                            
                            Vulcan Master from VOY "Gravity"
                            
                            
                            THESE are Trek Vulcans from ENT's time and each of them gives us some insight FROM Vulcan about Vulcans, from their own perspectives and they are consistent about their practices and how those practices have gone on for generations unchanged. And as T'Pau has noted:
                            
                            "This is the Vulcan heart, this is the Vulcan soul, this is our way..."
                            
                            And it is their way, no matter what ENT keeps trying to claim. ;-)
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            She is a non-mainstream Vulcan and so her behaviour is perfectly compatible with he mainstream Vulcans to whom we have been exposed.
                            
                            You don't even know what the "mainstream" is and neither does Braga.
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            Quote: the so-called "suppressed minority" was developed from nothing that was in the canon about Vulcans - particularly its physiology.
                            
                            Elaborations don't have to be a direct product of what we have learned before -
                            
                            They have to be elaborations of why they are doing what they are doing that causes them to want to buck the "mainstream".
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            that's what makes them an elaboration.
                            
                            No, it makes them shallow and inconsistent.
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            Deriving largely from what has been established previously is more of on an interpolation really. ENT is largely compatible with previous Trek though, and that makes it valid.
                            
                            No, you can keep saying it over and over and it will not make it so.
                            
                            I think I'll start doing that.
                            
                            ENT Vulcans have nothing to do with Star Trek Vulcans! ENT is NOT Star Trek!
                            
                            See? That was easy! ;-)
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            Quote:And it HAS been totally incompatible because rather than focus on "social", it actually changed the biology of the species.
                            
                            It has done no such thing.
                            
                            Oh but it HAS. The whole tribunal in ENT "Stigma" incorrectly establishes the purposes and effects of a "mind meld" AND the episode even has the great Doctor Phlox agreeing with this nonsense.
                            
                            ENT "Stigma" went so far overboard that there is nothing else to do but declare it non canon. And in fact, the debilitating "incurable" Pa'nar Syndrome disease has suddenly vanished!
                            
                            Whoosh! ;-)
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            Quote:This is nonsense. A Vulcan doesn't do "mind melds" to "access emotions". In this Braga "turn-things-on-their-ear" universe of Vulcans, a Vulcan now ends up with "biologically suppressed" emotion that needs some plot device to "explore" or "access". It's ridiculous.
                            
                            The point of mind melds -and T'Pol's use of TD for that matter- was never communicate to be a means of overcoming an inability to experience emotion.
                            
                            I just gave you quotes from Tolaris in ENT "Fusion" that said just that. You are not only in denial, but are now making yourself look like an idiot. Here, I'll include it again:
                            
                            T'Pol: "Mind meld?"
                            
                            Tolaris: "It's an ancient technique. It was abandoned centuries
                            ago. But we discovered that it can help us access our emotions."
                            
                            T'Pol: "How does it work?"
                            
                            Tolaris: "I'd begin by creating a telepathic link... We'd be able
                            to share our, our memories, our thoughts... In essence, we would
                            become... one mind. It's quite an experience but... it is
                            profoundly intimate. Are you prepared for that? If you'd like,
                            we could try a more traditional form of guided meditation, but it
                            wouldn't be nearly as effective."
                            
                            T'Pol: "Proceed."
                            
                            So what is it in the dialog:
                            
                            "But we discovered that it can help us access our emotions."
                            
                            that is unclear or that you can't understand?
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            In fact, T'Pol and other characters spoke to the fact that Vulcans have to practice meditation in order to suppress their emotions.
                            
                            And thus you now have what again exactly?
                            
                            RIght. More inconsistencies, even within the show itself.
                            
                            They drag Vulcans along with the plot-of-the-week. It's incredible, isn't it? ;-)
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            Mind melds and TD were explored by some Vulcans in ENT as a means to experience emotions while maintaining control.
                            
                            That's not what Tolaris just said above, now is it? And did you even bother to listen to the tall tale that T'Pol tells (and yes that is alliteration... ;-)) regarding the effects of Trellium-D and its release of her "emotions" and you have the nonsense from the old T'Pol to her younger self in ENT "E²" about how she would "never fully recover" from this release of emotions and other idiocies.
                            
                            Vulcans can "explore emotions" without any plot device, do you understand? And of course the result of doing such ends up with a Tolaris doing this:
                            
                            
                            
                            But... that's the price they pay.
                            
                            (Except if your character must be kept pristine and in a perfectly weak and whiny and weepy (more alliteration) condition to appeal to the young male demographic. ;-))
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            No I mean it is at a tangent wrt whether or not ENT's depiction of Vulcans is defensible or not. You are talkign about a sort of public opinion matter.
                            
                            And that was part of my point when I brought it up - "public opinion" within the science fiction genre fandom and how ENT is considered a laughing stock.
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            Which, although interesting I guess, is not really relevant to the subject of whether ENT's portrayal of Vulcans is reasonable.
                            
                            The portrayal of Vulcans was ONE of the main complaints. And this because many of these folks are well aware of the franchise from TOS onwards and suddenly you have an ENT and its "turn things on their ear" school of incoherent and inconsistent writing and these folks HAVE noticed it and have even written about it on their own forums. This is what sortof got to me because essentially Trek is pretty much offtopic at these places, except I suppose at their "lounge" type forums like Shore Leave here.
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            Quote:It has been discredited with a myriad of citations that you continually dismiss.
                            
                            For good reason, it doesn't hold up to reason IMO.
                            
                            Oh it HAS held up. It's held up so much that you have the comments from Manny Coto regarding how they are going to try to fix what has been broken. And rather than do a reset, he and folks like Allen Brennert and the Reeves-Stevens, have their work cut out for them.
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            All art follows some sort of constraints or it generally falls apart because it has no form.
                            
                            And THAT is exactly what has happened in ENT to the Vulcans. And the reason why is a simple axiom - "Nature abhors a vacuum." And because the writers removed that which was known in order to insert something else, but then hadn't really planned out what that "something else" was going to be, they were left with a vacuum. And they randomly filled it with whatever someone came up with for the episode that week. And so the species flops around like a beached whale unable to find its way back into the ocean.
                            
                            That whale is lying on the beach dying right now and unless they take this 4th season to guide it back to its home, it will be too late. And ENT really WILL be considered non-canon, not unlike TAS.
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            For example, in poetry we have haiku and sonnets - these forms have rules which make for expressions of genius because they require a sort of creative problem solving to succeed at adhering to their structure while expressing an idea. But successful serial story telling doesn't require the sort immutable 'specifications' that Gene Rodenberry laid down.
                            
                            You know it's wild that you bring up the "rules" of poetry and this even includes the famous "iambic pentameter" oft-used by Shakespeare. And it is this very thing that is what makes these types of writing identifiable as a specific form. And this is the SAME type of thing that must happen to species or character archetypes so that you can easily identify them as a certain character or species. You can't use the "rules" of poetry as an example but then dismiss similar "rules" when it comes to the basic framework of story-telling and archetypes.
                            
                            The "rules" of Haiku offers infinite possibilties for creating a brief visionary landscape. And so too do the "rules" of developing a consistent species archetype, which still allows for infinite characterizations that fit within the archetypical defintions.
                            
                            Quote:
                            
                            In fact, Trek needs to evolve its perspective over time in the manner that ENT has with Vulcans. I don't think ENT is without blemish of course, especially as regards S3, but I believe it went in a valid direction wrt Vulcans in general.
                            
                            Forget it. It is done. You have no other argument. ;-)
                            
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                            "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
                            ----
                            "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

                            
                            

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                            • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                              By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:00:06 on Sep 13, 2004

                              My finger is tired of scrolling through all of that... I'll try to be a little more concise.
                              
                              Quote:
                              The so-called "Andorian" who was causing all the havok in TOS "Journey to Babel", an episode written by D.C. Fontana, was an ORION disguised as an Andorian. The REAL Andorians in the episode, are as perplexed about what happened as everyone else, and when under questioning, suggest that Kirk and his investigators look at motivations
                              
                              I believe we had this discussion a year or so ago but here we go again. And its not me missing the point it you. Yes the apparent Andorian was an Orion, but that's beside the point. The elaborative inference being made is that the Andorians and Vulcans had been picked by the Orions (excuse me if I don't use all-caps bravado too) because their troubles in past years. I think this demonstrates a sharp eye, not canon myopia. (The Orion's choice of the Andorians as the culprits was due to the fact that they were apparently the more violent of the two races.)
                              
                              So no, I don't think this represents a problem with ENT, nor does it say anything about the creative minds behind it other than that they have a clever ability to elaborate an effective background for events depicted in earlier series.
                              
                              Quote:
                              Merely saying a thing and then hand-waving over what people show you regarding WHY ENT is so far off the mark, isn't going to help much I'm afraid. The hypnotic chant isn't going to fix what's broken.
                              
                              Interesting, I hadn’t seen anything chant like about what I wrote.
                              
                              Quote:
                              But what you fail to realize, is that the Vulcan's telepathy is primarily done through touch. And it goes beyond the marriage ceremonies and ALSO includes the death ceremonies, where a Vulcan transfers his "Katra" (or essence of all knowledge) to some "keeper"... And it is used for medicinal purposes to do self-healing, etc.
                              
                              The touch aspect of telepathy seems neither here nor there. And yes, apparently T'Pau (and the other lovely old Vulcan ladies you provided us with catching captures of) is a rare Vulcan who maintained the art of mind melding during the period of ENT. This should make for other really great dramatic elaborations some day too - perhaps even in ENT, under Mr Coto.
                              
                              Quote:
                              The point of mind melds -and T'Pol's use of TD for that matter- was never communicate to be a means of overcoming an inability to experience emotion.
                              
                              I just gave you quotes from Tolaris in ENT "Fusion" that said just that. You are not only in denial, but are now making yourself look like an idiot. Here, I'll include it again:
                              
                              This is all about you and the other canon freaks being narrow minded – not my denial. It's easy to misinterpret things when you are motivated to do so. How much blah blah blah have you gone through making this silly point? 'Accessing emotions' in this quote obviously meant ’accessing emotions [without being consumed or controlled by them]’. ENT has made it clear through T'Pal and others that vulcans must suppress their emotions actively through meditation. Why have you just chosen to ignore this, and instead draw some other narrow interpretation conclusion? The answer’s simple, because by doing so you can fabricate the point you really want to make: Down with ENT because it doesn't narrowly interpolate Roddenberry's bible - its, its, BLASPHEMY!! (Your caps-ranting virus has infected me.)
                              
                              Down deep you must know that you are trying to interpret things in a manner consistent with what you and your loyal ‘team’ of canon freaks want to see. Have you guys discussed getting a uniform BTW?
                              
                              Quote:
                              And that was part of my point when I brought it up - "public opinion" within the science fiction genre fandom and how ENT is considered a laughing stock.
                              
                              And my point is that this is a public opinion aspect of things and so is different -although not uninteresting- from whether or not ENT's depiction of Vulcans is valid and interesting.
                              
                              Quote:
                              That's not what Tolaris just said above, now is it? And did you even bother to listen to the tall tale that T'Pol tells (and yes that is alliteration... ;-)) regarding the effects of Trellium-D and its release of her "emotions" and you have the nonsense from the old T'Pol to her younger self in ENT "E²" about how she would "never fully recover" from this release of emotions and other idiocies.
                              
                              Vulcans can "explore emotions" without any plot device, do you understand? And of course the result of doing such ends up with a Tolaris doing this:
                              
                              [blah blah blah]
                              
                              Again you're just being ridiculously narrow in your interpretation to contrive a meretricious foundation for your team’s crusade. Toleris words, when taken with the many examples of ENT telling us that Vulcans need to actively practice meditation in order to suppress their emotion, were obviously not meant to mean that Vulcans are incapable of experiencing emotion naturally.
                              
                              So yes, I understand, but do you?
                              
                              Quote:
                              Oh it HAS held up. It's held up so much that you have the comments from Manny Coto regarding how they are going to try to fix what has been broken. And rather than do a reset, he and folks like Allen Brennert and the Reeves-Stevens, have their work cut out for them.
                              
                              I have heard Manny Coto praising B&B about their creative input BTW - so let's just ratchet down the rhetoric making him out to be a canon freak hero whose going to try to save you all from the terrible injustices that B&B have perpetrated. Its just silly. He’s never couched his intent to provide a curve between ENT elaboration and TOS in the canon freak like language you are. You are wildly speculating about his intentions.
                              
                              Anyway, obviously there is a gap between ENT and future Trek, and Manny Coto means to try to begin the process of interpolating a curve between the dots: ENT and TOS. That's a reasonable thing to do and I'm quite excited to see how he does so.
                              
                              Quote:
                              All art follows some sort of constraints or it generally falls apart because it has no form.
                              
                              And THAT is exactly what has happened in ENT to the Vulcans.
                              
                              To quote Mr Spock, that is illogical. Its side splittingly ironic that you are given to such histrionics in the (self-perceived) cause of an extremely rational fictitious race.
                              
                              Quote:
                              You know it's wild that you bring up the "rules" of poetry and this even includes the famous "iambic pentameter" oft-used by Shakespeare. And it is this very thing that is what makes these types of writing identifiable as a specific form. And this is the SAME type of thing that must happen to species or character archetypes so that you can easily identify them as a certain character or species. You can't use the "rules" of poetry as an example but then dismiss similar "rules" when it comes to the basic framework of story-telling and archetypes.
                              
                              On the contrary, I used the rules of poetry as a counterexample of what applies to long (extremely long) running dramatic pieces. And I am very much on solid ground - your canon freak/control freak injunctions aside. Applying the rules of something like poetry to Trek is just ridiculous. Trek should be imaginably consistent, but needn’t follow the dictates of any specification. You’re wantonly holding up the structure of some other art form and drawing parallels that are completely inappropriate.
                              
                              
                              --------
                              
                              'It was beautiful, we were selling rich women their fat asses back to them' - Tylor Durden

                              
                              

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                              • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                                By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:31:07 on Sep 14, 2004

                                Quote:
                                My finger is tired of scrolling through all of that... I'll try to be a little more concise.
                                
                                Then maybe you need to get a wheel mouse. They are quite cheap. ;-)
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Quote:The so-called "Andorian" who was causing all the havok in TOS "Journey to Babel", an episode written by D.C. Fontana, was an ORION disguised as an Andorian. The REAL Andorians in the episode, are as perplexed about what happened as everyone else, and when under questioning, suggest that Kirk and his investigators look at motivations
                                
                                I believe we had this discussion a year or so ago but here we go again. And its not me missing the point it you. Yes the apparent Andorian was an Orion, but that's beside the point.
                                
                                How is it beside any "point"? If you have ENT craft a number of Vulcan vs Andorian episodes - whether ENT "The Andorian Incident", ENT "Shadows of P'Jem", or ENT "Cease Fire", the latter of which where they are actively engaged in hostilities, the former of which involved the eventual discovery and later destruction of a Vulcan monastery by Andorians... and ALL because they mis-interpreted (read didn't watch carefully) a TOS episode?
                                
                                And you want to get up here and defend this nonsense because you, like they, had no clue about what the plot of TOS "Journey to Babel" was?
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                The elaborative inference being made is that the Andorians and Vulcans had been picked by the Orions (excuse me if I don't use all-caps bravado too) because their troubles in past years.
                                
                                Really? How is that the case? The Ambassador in the episode who was killed was Tellarite. You know, this guy:
                                
                                
                                
                                And the Telarite Ambassador had gotten into a pissing match with Sarek regarding what Vulcan was going to do with their vote for Coridan's membership.
                                
                                AND, Kirk was ALSO attacked (now bringing Humans into the equation).
                                
                                If we were to use your superficial reasoning, then the "past troubles" should have been between the Vulcans and Tellarites, because at the time of the death of the Tellarite Ambassador, no Andorian had been implicated, let alone was even suspect in the murder, and there was only evidence that a Vulcan could have done it.
                                
                                So where do "Andorians" come into play with respect to "Vulcans" here?
                                
                                They don't.
                                
                                And the Orion-as-Andorian ONLY made himself "known" AS "suspicious" when he attacked Kirk, a Human. Which SHOULD, again by your superficial view, indicate prior "troubles" between Humans and Andorians. And that's because an "Andorian" (in quotes), has now attacked a Human. And only THEN is the Andorian delegation questioned about this particular staffer "Thelev" and what his problem was - all while he was in the Brig.
                                
                                And ENT has been showing a possible reason behind Human-Andorian tensions in its characteristic turn-things-on-their-ear fashion, by involving Vulcans in an equation who don't belong there.
                                
                                Do you see where you continue to show the same flawed thinking as the ENT writers because you refuse to even watch the episode to find out what exactly went on there?
                                
                                The point of the episode being that the Orions were attempting to stir up troubles between ALL of these parties in order to corner the dilithium market. And they did what they did because those planets were big users of dilithium. And as Kirk noted at the end of the ep, the Orions could "clean up" in the market supplying dilithium to all sides of any inter-stellar war that they managed to create, and remain "neutral".
                                
                                How does that translate into Andorians and Vulcans naturally being at-odds with one another?
                                
                                IT doesn't.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                I think this demonstrates a sharp eye, not canon myopia. (The Orion's choice of the Andorians as the culprits was due to the fact that they were apparently the more violent of the two races.)
                                
                                No, this represents sheer laziness and creating conflict where none should have existed. If anything, the Andorians and Tellarites and Orions should have been out there in conflict, NOT the Vulcans. And with Humanity now out there, they may indeed get involved as well.
                                
                                This was all to falsely re-imagine, denigrate, and demonize (in a literal Satanic sense) Vulcans by making them into snotty arrogant patronizing militaristic nihilists who Humanity will "save" from themselves.
                                
                                This is just idiotic garbage.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                So no, I don't think this represents a problem with ENT, nor does it say anything about the creative minds behind it other than that they have a clever ability to elaborate an effective background for events depicted in earlier series.
                                
                                They wouldn't know cleverness if it were handed to them on a silver platter.
                                
                                Perhaps with the likes of epic-story tellers like the Reeves-Stevens, we can get some plausible backstories developed for the bread and butter writers to use to craft the stories. Ie., they need researchers.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Quote:Merely saying a thing and then hand-waving over what people show you regarding WHY ENT is so far off the mark, isn't going to help much I'm afraid. The hypnotic chant isn't going to fix what's broken.
                                
                                Interesting, I hadn’t seen anything chant like about what I wrote.
                                
                                Oh but your "ENT Vulcans fit with the rest of Trek Vulcans" chorus, is quite repetitive.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                The touch aspect of telepathy seems neither here nor there.
                                
                                No it IS "there". It has been shown to be their primary form of telepathy, where secondarily, they are sometimes shown to be able to "mentally" communicate without touch. But in the majority of their rituals, or if they want to know someone's "thoughts" (as was shown for the first time done by Spock in TOS "Dagger of the Mind" or done by Sarek to Kirk in TSFS), touch is used.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                And yes, apparently T'Pau (and the other lovely old Vulcan ladies
                                
                                And a male....
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                you provided us with catching captures of) is a rare Vulcan who maintained the art of mind melding during the period of ENT. This should make for other really great dramatic elaborations some day too - perhaps even in ENT, under Mr Coto.
                                
                                On the contrary, these are the "teachers" within that society who have explained what the Vulcan CULTURE was (not their own personal culture). And they have kept track of the history and have explained it to both the characters and the audience. Yet they don't fit in any non-canon ENT Bragaverse, because by golly, the ENT Bragaverse is ever nebulous, undefined, and un-formed and not connected in any way to the rest of Star Trek.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                This is all about you and the other canon freaks being narrow minded – not my denial.
                                
                                On the contrary - when people present you the evidence of what went on in the show - how the characters described people, places, events, species, their customs, their rituals, their habits, their histories, their religion, their politics, their physiology, and on and on, and you refuse to accept this - then you are nothing but an anarchist.
                                
                                It is no different from you accepting that in ENT "The Expanse", a Xindi probe carved a massive canyon, many kilometers-wide and many thousands of kilometers long, through central Florida down to Venezuela, and then upon this coming season, the crater will probably have disappeared with the flick of the backspace key, without mention regarding how or why. It'll just be gone, not only because of the non-plausibility of such being able to exist without a natural disaster happening to Florida, but because nothing that happened last year, particularly of THAT magnitude, really matters to the Trek anarchists.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                It's easy to misinterpret things when you are motivated to do so. How much blah blah blah have you gone through making this silly point? 'Accessing emotions' in this quote obviously meant ’accessing emotions [without being consumed or controlled by them]’.
                                
                                Really? And how does this silly interpretation come about?
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                ENT has made it clear through T'Pal and others that vulcans must suppress their emotions actively through meditation.
                                
                                In the early seasons, and as time goes on and the Vulcan female becomes an exploitable plaything, then all of that is thrown out the window as they systematically damage her brain in order to have her "express emotion".
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Why have you just chosen to ignore this, and instead draw some other narrow interpretation conclusion?
                                
                                Why have YOU chosen to ignore the systematic brain damage, episode after episode after episode? Why do YOU ignore dialog from the old T'Pol telling her "current" self in ENT "E²" that she well "never" get over the release of emotions as if this were the first time that any Vulcan had actually experienced any?
                                
                                Do you not see the idiocy? Of course not. In the mindset of anarchy, nothing should make any sense and anything goes. Structure, coherency, and consistency is irrelevent because it's all "good fun"!
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                The answer’s simple, because by doing so you can fabricate the point you really want to make: Down with ENT because it doesn't narrowly interpolate Roddenberry's bible - its, its, BLASPHEMY!! (Your caps-ranting virus has infected me.)
                                
                                Your anarchist leanings are pretty sad.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Down deep you must know that you are trying to interpret things in a manner consistent with what you and your loyal ‘team’ of canon freaks want to see. Have you guys discussed getting a uniform BTW?
                                
                                Have you incoherent Trek anarachists who mock anything not generated via your own electric kool-aid acid tests, ever considered that the rest of us prefer consistency and meaning rather than the nonsensical?
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Quote:And that was part of my point when I brought it up - "public opinion" within the science fiction genre fandom and how ENT is considered a laughing stock.
                                
                                And my point is that this is a public opinion aspect of things and so is different -although not uninteresting- from whether or not ENT's depiction of Vulcans is valid and interesting.
                                
                                No, it's not "different". This is a potential audience who gave the show a chance and left it because of nonsense that you push for. You need to take a gander around not only those other genre show boards but the bigger Trek ones. It's not very pretty and much of it is directed at the mishandling of the Vulcans.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Quote: Vulcans can "explore emotions" without any plot device, do you understand? And of course the result of doing such ends up with a Tolaris doing this:
                                
                                [blah blah blah]
                                
                                Of course it's "blah blah blah" when you're not licking those stamps.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Again you're just being ridiculously narrow in your interpretation to contrive a meretricious foundation for your team’s crusade.
                                
                                No, the foundation is there for those who watch the shows.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Toleris words, when taken with the many examples of ENT telling us that Vulcans need to actively practice meditation in order to suppress their emotion, were obviously not meant to mean that Vulcans are incapable of experiencing emotion naturally.
                                
                                So yes, I understand, but do you?
                                
                                No, you don't understand because it doesn't fit with your freaky world, when people point out the inconsistencies. Not only between ENT and the rest of Trek with respect to Vulcans, but within the show itself.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                I have heard Manny Coto praising B&B about their creative input BTW - so let's just ratchet down the rhetoric making him out to be a canon freak hero whose going to try to save you all from the terrible injustices that B&B have perpetrated.
                                
                                No, no one needs to indicate what needs to be "ratcheted down". Coto has realized that he was left with a mess and rather than increase the ire with a reset, he's going to supposedly take the rest of his writers and try to fix it.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Its just silly.
                                
                                No, incoherent gushers are "silly" and this is why the show was nearly cancelled when the culprits kept pandering to the stamp-lickers.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                He’s never couched his intent to provide a curve between ENT elaboration and TOS in the canon freak like language you are. You are wildly speculating about his intentions.
                                
                                Why don't you re-read what he HAS said? (from here):
                                
                                "Our Vulcans lie, our Vulcans are monolithic, our Vulcans are not pacifistic," Coto admits.
                                
                                I mean, how much clearer and to the point would you want him to be considering he still reports to Berman who is his boss?
                                
                                I'd say that he was right on the money with the wording. ;-)
                                
                                Meaning that the ENT Vulcans are NOT what the rest of Star Trek has shown them to be, thus prompting a 3-part story to rectify this in a hopefully creative way. The fact that he seems to prefer to see this dirty glass as "half full" rather than "half empty" is interesting, as he intends on using the mishandling of the species archetype, to hopefully use as a stepping stone to add some meaningful additional development to the species with some hopefully non-convoluted manipulations.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Anyway, obviously there is a gap between ENT and future Trek, and Manny Coto means to try to begin the process of interpolating a curve between the dots: ENT and TOS. That's a reasonable thing to do and I'm quite excited to see how he does so.
                                
                                And the fact that nothing was attempted to tie this show into the rest of Trek until NOW is sad.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Quote:All art follows some sort of constraints or it generally falls apart because it has no form.
                                
                                And THAT is exactly what has happened in ENT to the Vulcans.
                                
                                To quote Mr Spock, that is illogical.
                                
                                To quote Mr. Spock:
                                
                                "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end."
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Its side splittingly ironic that you are given to such histrionics in the (self-perceived) cause of an extremely rational fictitious race.
                                
                                No, it's sad that you prefer incoherent and inconsistent characterizations and non-sensical development when it comes to fictional storytelling.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                On the contrary, I used the rules of poetry as a counterexample of what applies to long (extremely long) running dramatic pieces.
                                
                                No, you show your total ignorance of basic story-telling, irrespective of length.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                And I am very much on solid ground - your canon freak/control freak injunctions aside.
                                
                                No, you discredited yourself immediately with your simplistic and silly explanation.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Applying the rules of something like poetry to Trek is just ridiculous.
                                
                                Dramatic story-telling has always had "rules". It's amazing that you would actually get up here on a public BBS and flaunt your ignorance all to justify the nonsense that has been done with a species archetype.
                                
                                Quote:
                                
                                Trek should be imaginably consistent, but needn’t follow the dictates of any specification. You’re wantonly holding up the structure of some other art form and drawing parallels that are completely inappropriate.
                                
                                No, you show your total ignorance of literature and story construction.
                                
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                                "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
                                ----
                                "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

                                
                                

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                              • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                                By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:17:16 on Sep 14, 2004

                                Quote from Reklaw to Jadzia-Dax:
                                'Accessing emotions' in this quote obviously meant 'accessing emotions [without being consumed or controlled by them]'. ENT has made it clear through T'Pal [sic] and others that vulcans must suppress their emotions actively through meditation.
                                
                                
                                It has long since been established that Vulcans use meditative techniques to contain their emotion. You flaunt yourself as a grandstanding ignoramus by implying that Jadzia-Dax, or any "canon freak", doesn't know about basic Vulcan practice. Your overall argument about mind-melds is nonsensical against the background of Star Trek lore -- a knowledge that you have an admitted ignorance and contempt toward.
                                
                                As Vulcan emotional control is maintained by meditative technique, justify B&B's assault upon T'Pol's physiology, i.e. brain damage, to unleash her emotions. Support your claims with specific onscreen proof, as I don't care to debate your usual random hallucinations.
                                
                                
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                                • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                                  By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:59:39 on Sep 14, 2004

                                  Quote:
                                  It has long since been established that Vulcans use meditative techniques to contain their emotion. You flaunt yourself as a grandstanding ignoramus by implying that Jadzia-Dax, or any "canon freak", doesn't know about basic Vulcan practice.
                                  
                                  Wow, things are really getting to a fevered pitch aren't they? You have an Inquisitor's tone now - your point ostensibly being that making factual comments is insulting to the grand master Jadzia?
                                  
                                  Oh, and I love the pedantic little [sic] usage too - your really starting to lose it aren't you? I'm worried you've got a little aneurism in the making.
                                  
                                  Quote:
                                  As Vulcan emotional control is maintained by meditative technique, justify B&B's assault upon T'Pol's physiology, i.e. brain damage, to unleash her emotions. Support your claims with specific onscreen proof, as I don't care to debate your usual random hallucinations.
                                  
                                  Okay, take your fingers out of your ears this time please. ENT has never challenged the fact that meditation is used by Vulcans to maintain self-control. Instead, I believe that ENT's frequent reminders to us that Vulcan have to actively suppress emotions in this fashion demonstrates that they didn't mean to suggest that Vulcans can only experience emotions by damaging their brains or using mind melds etc. The 'accessing emotions' quote is just being narrowly interpreted to support this groundless claim.
                                  
                                  Did I get through to you this time? Or are you going to come back telling me about some other notable canon freak personage that I have inappropriately addressed?
                                  
                                  
                                  
                                  
                                  --------
                                  
                                  'It was beautiful, we were selling rich women their fat asses back to them' - Tylor Durden

                                  
                                  

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                                  • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                                    By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:27:18 on Sep 14, 2004 | (1)

                                    Quote from Reklaw:
                                    ENT has never challenged the fact that meditation is used by Vulcans to maintain self-control. Instead, I believe that ENT's frequent reminders to us that Vulcan have to actively suppress emotions in this fashion demonstrates that they didn't mean to suggest that Vulcans can only experience emotions by damaging their brains or using mind melds etc. The 'accessing emotions' quote is just being narrowly interpreted to support this groundless claim.
                                    
                                    
                                    That may be what you "believe", but your perception doesn't jibe with what's onscreen. Neither mind-meld nor brain damage is needed to unleash Vulcan emotion, yet B&B make a necessity of both of those mechanisms to release T'Pol's emotion. That is nonsense which, of course, appeals to you.
                                    
                                    
                                    Quote:
                                    Did I get through to you this time?
                                    
                                    
                                    Your mental fog appears very dense, so you should try extra hard to "get through" it to communicate what you think you see of the world.
                                    
                                    
                                    --------------
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                        • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                          By: Meglo (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:51:26 on Sep 12, 2004

                          Quote:
                          Rather than seeing it as a problem, Piller saw it as a challenge. "I learned very early in the game that by setting these boundaries Roddenberry was forcing us to be more creative than we might ordinarily be. You couldn't just find some tired old human story and do a retread. You really had to work hard to find a way to make it work in Roddenberry's universe, because it put these restrictions for you. It made us tell better, more original, unique stories."
                          
                          And the above highlighted part is the KEY.
                          
                          
                          I'd just like to throw out a big ol' AMEN to that. Let me repeat something I've said at least a couple times before, B&B were SO happy to get away from Roddenberry's box they forgot to make some rules of their own. As a result, you have things like the transporter being used as a deus ex machina in the FIRST episode. Like Piller said, creativity doesn't come from thinking outside the box, it comes from making things work INSIDE the box.
                          
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                          The supervisor is Verizon!

                          
                          

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                          • RE: Is T'Pol out of her Vulcan mind? | Report this post to moderator
                            By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:14:28 on Sep 12, 2004 | (1)

                            What's interesting about Piller now is that he took a character from a Stephen King novel - the novel, as a standalone story, being a self-limitation in and of itself, and is now about to embark on season 4 of his series based on that novel's premise. And the series has helped propel USA to being the highest rated for cable broadcasts this past summer. ;-)
                            
                            EDIT: OH! And you just made me think of the perfect example of the "making things work inside a box". I suddenly remembered the film "Apollo 13" and one of things, which was actually "real life" that made it so endearing a movie. And that has to do with a literal "fixed box of things" that they had to work with in order to not only compensate for the malfunctions (particularly the CO2 problem), but to get home. And you can think about that scene where the guys down in mission control go into a room and the one guy dumps a box of junk out on the table and then goes onto explain how they would need to come up with a procedure for the astronauts to jerry-rig a filter with nothing but what was on the table. And of course at the end, they DO come up with something, are able to explain it to Lovell, et al, and it is put together and in the end, WORKS.
                            
                            THAT is "Humanity" at its best and sortof metaphoric for how it CAN be done in writing by those self-imposed restrictions - being given a tableful of odds and ends to piece together to come up with something functional. ;-)
                            
                            --------
                            
                            "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
                            ----
                            "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

                            
                            

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Some people are gonna hate me for this... | Report this post to moderator
By: Meglo (Odo's file, contact) @ 02:10:56 on Sep 11, 2004 | (1)

Is it just me, or does it seem like she's getting someone to summarize criticism made of ENT into talking points for her? I mean, no offense to good looking people, but it always seems that brains + beauty equals a constant. Maybe it's the slight mix of cynicism and paranoia in my personality, but I just don't buy her suddenly coming up with these faults that have been mentioned almost constantly. It's certainly better than Braga coming out and NOT acknowledging what's wrong with the show, I just don't think she's ever really cared about the difference between ENT and the Trek she "grew up with."

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• RE: Some people are gonna hate me for this... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Timo (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:23:57 on Sep 11, 2004

  Quote:
  Is it just me, or does it seem like she's getting someone to summarize criticism made of ENT into talking points for her?
  
  Why would she simply repeat criticism made by others?
  
  Quote:
  I mean, no offense to good looking people, but it always seems that brains + beauty equals a constant.
  
  * rolls eyes *
  
  Quote:
  I just don't think she's ever really cared about the difference between ENT and the Trek she "grew up with."
  
  You don't think she cared? Do you actually have a reason to doubt her? Because "brains + beauty equals a constant"? Puh-lease.
  
  Her critism is not new. She has made it before the beginning of season 3 as well.

  
  

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  • RE: Some people are gonna hate me for this... | Report this post to moderator
    By: SirTrekker (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:32:02 on Sep 11, 2004

    Quote:
    Her critism is not new. She has made it before the beginning of season 3 as well.
    
    I'd like some proof of that, please. I certainly don't recall any comments made by her prior to season 3's premiere episode about the portrayal of her character or about Vulcans in general; at least, certainly none that have received nearly as much publicity as these recent comments.

    
    

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    • RE: Some people are gonna hate me for this... | Report this post to moderator
      By: Timo (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:26:46 on Sep 11, 2004 | (1)

      I did a quick search, and the following quote (October 5 2003) is all I could find for now. There may have been others.
      
      "They write it, I do it," she says matter-of-factly. "I don't see it, personally. T'Pol's a Vulcan -- how could she have a relationship? And he's so emotional. My goodness, he's like a nut case. So how are this nut case and this person who has her stuff together going to find common ground? Maybe that's the basis... We'll find out, because I'm not sure how that's going to evolve."
      
      (from trekweb )
      
      You're right in that her comments were less explicit at that time but I think this is simply a matter of T'Pol's changes being more radical during season 3 compared to the earlier seasons.

      
      

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• RE: Some people are gonna hate me for this... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:40:14 on Sep 11, 2004

  I agree with you and SirTrekker.
  
  And although I know that "freshman" actors don't really have much say because folks like her are a dime a dozen in the industry, and sadly actresses like Jennifer Lien found that out quick, fast, and in a hurry in VOY, I just watched Blalock last night on Stargate SG-1 reprising her "Ishta" role and acting identically to how she plays T'Pol in ENT. I mean exactly.
  
  "Second verse, barely different from the first, but a little bit louder and a little bit worse."
  
  Sigh... Perhaps her and Keating's "advocacy" will bring about some positive changes in any case.
  
  --------
  
  "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
  ----
  "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

  
  

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  • RE: Some people are gonna hate me for this... | Report this post to moderator
    By: Ichthus (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:22:31 on Sep 11, 2004

    Quote:
    I just watched Blalock last night on Stargate SG-1 reprising her "Ishta" role and acting identically to how she plays T'Pol in ENT. I mean exactly.
    
    Something about her Stargate SG-1 performance bothered me, it's just as you said. If you closed your eyes you would think it was T'pol not Ishta who did the talking. In fact in the scene were Ishta was talking to Teal'c's future daughter-in-law, Jolene gives a line about emotion that one would expect from T'pol.

    
    

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• RE: Some people are gonna hate me for this... | Report this post to moderator
  By: SirTrekker (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:22:16 on Sep 11, 2004

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  Is it just me, or does it seem like she's getting someone to summarize criticism made of ENT into talking points for her? I mean, no offense to good looking people, but it always seems that brains + beauty equals a constant. Maybe it's the slight mix of cynicism and paranoia in my personality, but I just don't buy her suddenly coming up with these faults that have been mentioned almost constantly. It's certainly better than Braga coming out and NOT acknowledging what's wrong with the show, I just don't think she's ever really cared about the difference between ENT and the Trek she "grew up with."
  
  I didn't think there'd be a topic that would bring me out of my self-imposed exile from these boards, but I absolutely agree with you on this. It strikes me as a bit suspicious that she'd start speaking out about these issues NOW, when, according to her, they've existed since the first season. Why wasn't she speaking out about these things, as well as the treatment of her character, sooner, so some of it could possibly have been prevented? If she could so clearly see how un-Vulcan her character and the race in general was behaving, why wasn't she pounding down B&B's door, tossing the scripts in their faces, and telling them to fix it? Surely she must have some say in how T'Pol is portrayed!
  
  Maybe this is [i]my[/i] cynical attitude kicking in, butI believe that Jolene's comments seem to be little more than lip service. I'm betting she can see that the fans are fed up, and that a lot of their ire is focused on her portrayal of T'Pol this past season. That, and the very real threat of cancellation at the end of last season, has probably given her a major wake-up call, and now she's trying to make amends to the fans so they don't hate her as much.
  
  Sorry to say this, but I'm not buying it. I would've believed her if she spoke out on this sooner, but now that the heat is on for her and the series, it just seems like she's saying "If I say I hate it too, they won't hate me as much".

  
  

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Alright Jolene, Keep it up, | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 02:04:51 on Sep 11, 2004

and you'll end up auditioning for a role in "Unemployment Line" LOL



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• RE: Alright Jolene, Keep it up, | Report this post to moderator
  By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:30:43 on Sep 11, 2004

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  and you'll end up auditioning for a role in "Unemployment Line" LOL
  
  Last night, Stargate SG-1 had guess who as a guest star? Right. Jolene Blalock reprising her "Ishta" role. And at the end, hoping that the character would die, the character didn't and strolls casually and defiantly up the ramp into the Stargate, back to whereever. Alive and well.
  
  Ie., Blalock has a potential place to "go". ;-)
  
  And as a sidenote, just as a generic rant (not directed to you BTW)... I want to know why Stargate - both SG-1 AND Atlantis, have really taken it upon themselves to be so overtly derivative of Star Trek, that SG-1's finale next week is titled "Endgame" and Atlantis just did a story last night where the crew first do a VOY "Eye of the Needle"-type communication, supposedly back to Earth, and then switch to what we later find is an "alternate reality", the style of which would make a Braga proud, concluding with a DS9 "Emissary I & II" "advanced aliens" (Prophets, this time) plot, where these beings dwell in the wormhole and had pulled our favorite travellers away from the area of that gate, because according to the alien-Hammond, any travellers who use it supposedly "damage" their space, which will kill them. Meanwhile in DS9 "Emissary I", we had already seen, some 11 years before, the Prophet-as-Picard note to Sisko "Our existence is disrupted whenever one of you enters the passage...".
  
  I spent 2 hours screaming at 2 Stargate shows because of all the ripped references and characterizations. Is nothing sacred anymore? Has the genre become that creatively bankrupt? Is Sci Fi doing this on purpose to attract the Star Trek fandom to their shows by using such obvious Trek references and premises? Meanwhile with the repeat of ENT "Countdown" last night, we find our favorite franchise continuing, as they have done all season, to rip from Star Wars, with the "Concentrate all fire on..." (ripped from Admiral Akbar's orders in RoTJ) and the "Target the main blah...", etc.
  
  And now back to the regularly scheduled topic. ;-)
  
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  "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
  ----
  "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

  
  

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  • RE: Alright Jolene, Keep it up, | Report this post to moderator
    By: Meglo (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:53:05 on Sep 11, 2004

    Hang on, you're criticizing SG-1 just because an episode has the same title as a VOY episode with a completely different plot? That seems a little asinine to me. Also, I thought the Atlantis was much more a rip-off of the Farscape episode "A Human Reaction." (I did scream at the TV when Shepherd offered his alien girl a beer, as that moment was completely from Farscape.) That said, the episode was different enough for me to be able to enjoy it.
    
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    • RE: Alright Jolene, Keep it up, | Report this post to moderator
      By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:48:20 on Sep 11, 2004

      Quote:
      Hang on, you're criticizing SG-1 just because an episode has the same title as a VOY episode with a completely different plot? That seems a little asinine to me.
      
      No, it goes beyond just episode names as I am noticing that season 8 is really really beginning to run out of steam. I think the only thing that is holding SG-1 together is the fact that the characters are well-fleshed out after all these years. They are like comfy pillows and the Teal'c character has certainly held his own. But because of this 2nd show, you now essentially have a full fledged Stargate "franchise" that interacts and crosses-over between series and when they do so, they are moving more and more into the derivative. As it is, the "replicants" and whatnot in SG-1 are nothing but Trek Borg rip-offs, reimagined, IMHO.
      
      And I also asked why was last night's Atlantis episode nothing but a combination of rip-offs from DS9 and VOY episodes? I couldn't believe what the hell I was looking at. I like the characters and all, but geez. Besides, Mckay is nothing but a reimagined EMH. He has almost the identical personality. ;-)
      
      I do realize that most people here are NOT fully cognizant of even sketchy details of much of Star Trek, no matter what the series. And VOY? Forget it. ;-) So these sorts of things would not jump right out. But for those of us who are aware of the 700+ Trek episodes, it's really very blatant and really really distracting. Perhaps one can consider it a testament to Trek actually still managing to lead the way to a degree, but I'd rather some of the other genre shows be able to come up with something unique on their own. Perhaps the coming Farscape miniseries will have the opportunity to do some "leading".
      
      Quote:
      
      Also, I thought the Atlantis was much more a rip-off of the Farscape episode "A Human Reaction." (I did scream at the TV when Shepherd offered his alien girl a beer, as that moment was completely from Farscape.) That said, the episode was different enough for me to be able to enjoy it.
      
      But you didn't notice the ending? The alien-Hammond and what the heck he said about who he was and what was happening to them every time someone used the gate???? Come on!!! Open them eyes!
      
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      "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
      ----
      "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

      
      

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      • RE: Alright Jolene, Keep it up, | Report this post to moderator
        By: Meglo (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:12:55 on Sep 12, 2004 | (1)

        Quote:
        Quote:Hang on, you're criticizing SG-1 just because an episode has the same title as a VOY episode with a completely different plot? That seems a little asinine to me.
        
        No, it goes beyond just episode names as I am noticing that season 8 is really really beginning to run out of steam. I think the only thing that is holding SG-1 together is the fact that the characters are well-fleshed out after all these years. They are like comfy pillows and the Teal'c character has certainly held his own.
        
        I completely agree with you, I just thought you were only bothered by the episode title.
        
        I think the series still worked during season seven, though I hated the return of Daniel, the overall Lost City/Ancients/Anubis arc gave it energy. Now that that's over with, the series seems to have gone into a holding pattern. I've really disliked how O'Neill has degenerated over the years to the point where they try to compose all his dialogue of one-liners. Putting him in-charge has only seemed to raise the percentage of supposedly funny dialogue. Also, there aren't as many recurring minor characters, a great strength of the show, since they ended their alliance with the Tok'ra and the rebel Jaffa. Unfortunately, if BSG doesn't do the same kind of numbers as SG-1 in January, I have a sneaking suspicion it will be renewed again. I would NOT look forward to a ninth season.
        
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        But you didn't notice the ending? The alien-Hammond and what the heck he said about who he was and what was happening to them every time someone used the gate???? Come on!!! Open them eyes!
        
        Actually, I didn't notice that, so yeah, the mist beings do seem derivative of the Prophets. Not so much so I felt it was a blatant rip-off, however. I mean, unlike the Prophets, they were more plot device than an actual race. Still, I hope we see them again. Maybe the Wraith will try to use their planet to gate to Earth and the Atlantis team will have to fight them in an illusion world. (Yeah, sounds cheesy, but could be good.)
        
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        • RE: Alright Jolene, Keep it up, | Report this post to moderator
          By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:16:40 on Sep 12, 2004

          Quote:
          Quote:No, it goes beyond just episode names as I am noticing that season 8 is really really beginning to run out of steam. I think the only thing that is holding SG-1 together is the fact that the characters are well-fleshed out after all these years. They are like comfy pillows and the Teal'c character has certainly held his own.
          
          I completely agree with you, I just thought you were only bothered by the episode title.
          
          No - actually that little ditty was just discovered by me last week when I was looking for some info on Sci Fi Channel's website for info about the episode that eventually aired Friday and I noticed the other episode title. All it did was start me to screaming again, especially since it is the season finale.... heh
          
          I mean right now, it's bad enough that ENT has an upcoming episode called "Home" and SG Atlantis just had Friday's episode titled "Home"!
          
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          I think the series still worked during season seven, though I hated the return of Daniel, the overall Lost City/Ancients/Anubis arc gave it energy. Now that that's over with, the series seems to have gone into a holding pattern.
          
          True, although all the convoluted alliances and mis-alliances seem to be introducing a number of different ways to take the show if they choose to.
          
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          I've really disliked how O'Neill has degenerated over the years to the point where they try to compose all his dialogue of one-liners. Putting him in-charge has only seemed to raise the percentage of supposedly funny dialogue.
          
          Yeah... Now he's essentially reduced down to being pure comic relief - not just through dialog, but through the continually perplexed look that he maintains on this face. ;-) That characterization has essentially gone a full 180° away from the original film's O'Neill, who was very no-nonsense "miltiary" still suffering from the effects of the loss of his son.
          
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          Also, there aren't as many recurring minor characters, a great strength of the show, since they ended their alliance with the Tok'ra and the rebel Jaffa. Unfortunately, if BSG doesn't do the same kind of numbers as SG-1 in January, I have a sneaking suspicion it will be renewed again. I would NOT look forward to a ninth season.
          
          Well, I'm sure that Moore will make sure that his show stays on the air. ;-) However, the question will be how much of a "team player" Moore can be because certainly, he has the potential to be like his former buddy, Braga... Although Braga is a "concept" writer, with little or no ability to do "character" pieces and Moore can do characters, but seems to have problems putting them through sci fi "concept" settings, which requires that "larger than life" persona. ;-)
          
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          But you didn't notice the ending? The alien-Hammond and what the heck he said about who he was and what was happening to them every time someone used the gate???? Come on!!! Open them eyes!
          
          Actually, I didn't notice that, so yeah, the mist beings do seem derivative of the Prophets. Not so much so I felt it was a blatant rip-off, however.
          
          As the alien-Hammond was ticking off all these things about them and Weir, Mckay, and Sheppherd were trying to convince him that they weren't there to do "harm", all I could picture was Sisko arguing the same. What made DS9 "Emissary I & II" very different, was that Sisko's whole contact with those aliens, was a very fleshed out essay in "visualizing" the concept of "linear time" and its effects on Humanity. And of course Sisko learns something about that at the end of his explanation when they show him what they had a problem with regarding his "explanations". ;-)
          
          Here, it was like a "nod". But then it was not a 2-hour episode either.
          
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          I mean, unlike the Prophets, they were more plot device than an actual race.
          
          Well perhaps. They appear to be standalone aliens, although to me, they left that plot thread out there to possibly be picked up on at some point considering that these beings "live" there. And since that gate DOES give them a way "home", it would be a wonder if they may consider coming back to it. The "never say never" applies methinks, despite Weir's pleading and promising that they would "never" use that again.
          
          Of course, if this had been done on VOY and Weir had been Janeway (which she is being patterned after... ahem, ie., Weir = Janeway, Simon = Mark, both pairs come complete with a dog), then oh the complaints - that she should say "to hell" with those aliens or magically find a way around them by some plot device and whatnot (thus meaning that you end the show early... ;-)).
          
          But I digress. ;-)
          
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          Still, I hope we see them again. Maybe the Wraith will try to use their planet to gate to Earth and the Atlantis team will have to fight them in an illusion world. (Yeah, sounds cheesy, but could be good.)
          
          Heh... like I said, they are throwing all these possible plot threads out there and it's a matter of picking up on them now. Even if they have Mckay manage to come up with some technobabble device that could create a "safe passage" through to Earth using that gate that would protect the beings from harm. Of course then that would end the premise of the show - although Friday's episode sortof already DID "end it" by now showing early in the series, how this group really DON'T want to go "home". ;-)
          
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          "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
          ----
          "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

          
          

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      • I've Been Watching The Older Eps | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jean-Luc (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:46:20 on Sep 11, 2004 | (1)

        I knew this would post twice!
        
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        "Outer Space: The Last Frontier.
        These are the trips of the Star Trek Enterprise. Its five year plan calls for us to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly fly where no man has gone in space. Live long, and be happy."
        
        Patrick Stewart--SNL, Stardate 9402.05

        
        

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      • I've Been Watching The Older Eps | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jean-Luc (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:45:56 on Sep 11, 2004

        and notice they use "beam" alot too when they well, beam up to a ship.
        
        Another reference I found pretty amusing: When Carter and Daniel were in a ship with Carter's dad trying to rescue O'Neil and Teal'c (sp?) she asked, "Can't you just beam them out?" Dad said, "Who do I look like, Scotty?"
        
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        "Outer Space: The Last Frontier.
        These are the trips of the Star Trek Enterprise. Its five year plan calls for us to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly fly where no man has gone in space. Live long, and be happy."
        
        Patrick Stewart--SNL, Stardate 9402.05

        
        

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        • RE: I've Been Watching The Older Eps | Report this post to moderator
          By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:40:28 on Sep 12, 2004

          Yeah... I mean, it's "cute" but I think that rather than near-parody Trek with its weekly nods - not only using Trek terminology but actual Trek plots from previous Trek episodes, this show should quit with that and really be its own universe. It's amazing enough that the behind the scenes folks are actually writing for both shows AND obviously either watched quite a bit of DS9 and VOY and/or got copies of the scripts of those shows from somewhere and are mining them.
          
          And maybe because everyone producing shows in the genre are aware of all the problems with ENT, then they are saying, through how they craft the stories and use "familiar" Trek terms, that they are more than willing to welcome ALL the dissatisfied Trek fans into their fold - particuarly if ENT doesn't make it past season 4. A strange but plausible tactic. ;-)
          
          Methinks that Coto et al, need to REALLY REALLY look at what the Stargate Atlantis writers are doing to attract Trek fans away from Trek, with all these overt references, because this is really a wakeup call that the vultures are now circling overhead, ready to grab an extra couple million folks (at least those who have cable who even get Sci Fi Channel). ;-)
          
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          "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
          ----
          "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

          
          

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• RE: Alright Jolene, Keep it up, | Report this post to moderator
  By: Cybersoldier (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:11:04 on Sep 11, 2004

  I have a feeling T'pol will not make past the entire 4th season lol

  
  

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  • RE: Alright Jolene, Keep it up, | Report this post to moderator
    By: icedtea (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:02:41 on Sep 11, 2004 | (2)

    I think she's absolutely right on T'Pol's inconsistencies and on her needing to be someone *she's* happy to play.
    
    I also much prefer this kind of honesty to the "We're all very pleased" attitude those in charge try to put across as we all stand here and watch Trek go down the pan. Shiney, happy people syndrome is just no help at a time like this and if I were Manny Coto I'd be glad that Jolene cared enough to feel and say these things. Sad thing is, I think she's had to take this public step because Manny ain't listening. If he were, Jolene wouldn't need to do this. They'd be fixing T'Pol between them behind the scenes and we'd be knocked on our asses by season 4 and begging TIIC for seasons 5, 6, and 7. I don't mean that T'Pol is all that's wrong with the show (for me). I just see this as an indicator that yet another actor feels their character is being manhandled, misused, lost to formulaic apathy and ratings-stunt writing. The fact that it's one of the formulaic 'main 3' who gets at least a 3rd (if not more) of the screentime should also give those who yell 'sour-grapes!' pause. Also, Jolene is a fellow fan. She isn't just some jobbing actor who thought Trek was for geeks and still thinks it's for geeks after 3 seasons. She gets it. She loves it. She wants it to be the best that it can be. Why the need to trivialise her feelings and views? She's entitled to her fan opinion, just as we are.
    
    As for her ending up in the unemployment line after Ent, that's just daft. She made a living before Ent and she'll make one after. Star Trek may be the centre of our universe but there's a big world of stage and screen out there that we just don't see on our radar. Just my 2 cents :)
    

    
    

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