TrekWeb.com - "The Forge" Kicks Off Vulcan Arc With Terrorist Act, Plus Federation Rumors

"The Forge" Kicks Off Vulcan Arc With Terrorist Act, Plus Federation Rumors - First Plot Details (SPOILERS)

By Steve Krutzler / 10:44, 3 September 2004 / Enterprise

Beam This Story to a Friend
Complete the form below to e-mail a link to this story to a friend.

The first episode in the much-publicized Vulcan arc of STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE this season will be called "The Forge," according to TrekWeb sources today. The episode will kick-off a three-episode storyline featuring a desert trek and possibly a civil war on the planet Vulcan. It may also reveal stunning new developments in the prequel universe.

The episode starts when what is described by sources as the "Federation embassy" on Vulcan is bombed and a character named 'Ambassador Forrest' is killed. This suggests that the Federation, the governing organization of Starfeet and hundreds of planets in the first four STAR TREK series, may be founded in this season of ENTERPRISE, and that Vaughn Armstrong's Admiral Forrest (or perhaps his relative) may be named an ambassador to Vulcan in an earlier episode of the season. "Zero Hour" stated that the Federation would be founded seven years after the events of that episode (2161, according to lore), so whether this mention of a "Federation" embassy is merely a misnomer or indicative of a more complicated plot point remains to be seen.

Speaking in the new issue of SFX Magazine, producer Manny Coto says the season will definitely build toward the founding of the Federation, but may not show it.

"The stories that we're telling will all tie together at the end, where we will see either the actual forming or the beginning of the forming," Coto says. "I'm not sure we can go all the way to the actual forming, because there's a date situation involved. But definitely, that's where the season's heading."

Coto also mentions in the interview that if the Romulan Wars are passed over for inclusion in the next STAR TREK feature film, he'd begin developing them for ENTERPRISE "right away."

The ambiguity of the embassy aside, sources reveal that "The Forge" picks up as 'Archer' heads to Vulcan to investigate the bombing and is soon led into the Vulcan desert by a Vulcan security investigator named 'T'Fon' described by sources as a 'George Patton of Vulcan' with a hidden agenda. T'Fon is the chief investigator of the V'Shar, the Vulcan High Command's security wing.

T'Fon is less than welcoming to Archer's efforts in the matter until the investigation points to members of a strange religious cult called the 'Syrrans.' T'Fon is aided by 'Varek', a younger Vulcan investigator possibly sharing whatever agenda his superior has. In search of 'Syrran' himself, a religious figure who has found the remains of the Vulcan hero 'Surak', Archer sets out into the desert.

Archer encounters a Vulcan named 'Arev' on his journey, who offers to guide the Enterprise captain on his quest to find the cult. He is described as a Kohlinar master from 50 to 70 in appearance and who possesses more emotional control than many Vulcans we've met. He regards Archer as an illogical being and sources suggest he may actually be Syrran himself.

"The Forge" is set to go before cameras under the direction of Michael Grossman ("Hatchery") September 14th.

Until this information is confirmed by Paramount or another official source, it should be treated as rumor.

You can read more excerpts from Coto's latest interview, in which he also discusses the potential William Shatner guest appearance, here.

ENTERPRISE Mission Schedule \| Logs by Season: 1 2 3 4
Episode Number	Title	Airdate

71 comments Post New | Help

Sounds good to me | Report this post to moderator
By: FutureGuy (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:42:26 on Sep 04, 2004

I'm hoping we see the beginnings of the Federation this season, since it would seem impossible that everything would "just happen" or fall in place with a galactic Federation.

In the U.S. it took 13 years from the Declaration of Independence until the ratifying of the Constitution in 1789, so I'd hope we'd see a lot of the underlying things with the soon-to-be Federation. Didn't Daniels show Archer the "signing" of the charter? Was that the beginning (Declaration of Independence) or the ending (Constitution)? Either way, there should be some pretty loud mumblings going on as either a story line, or as a reference within a story towards the creation of the Federation this season....or so I hope.

--------

"Is it time for a colorful metaphor?"

Quote

This is good and bad | Report this post to moderator
By: Postdoc (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:08:01 on Sep 03, 2004

It will make for an interesting story, but most of last year was a terrorism angle. The Xindi arc was a very lightly shaded 9/11 allegory. Is this more of the same? Also, and I may be interpreting here, wasn't the Federation the result of POSITIVE events, the mutual understanding of varied planets, rather than NEGATIVE EVENTS such as this. I'm not sure. Also, TOS made more oblique Vietnam references in "Private Little War" and especially on the body counts in "Taste of Armageddon". This again seems pretty straightforward, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt (since I have to anyway) until see it. I'm hopeful this season will be better.

Quote

RE: This is good and bad | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:18:20 on Sep 04, 2004

Well, it has been long assumed that the United Federation of Planets was formed shortly after the Romulan War, which would be a negative event. :-) That still may be the case. The League of Nations were formed shortly after World War 1, and the United Nations were formed shortly after World War 2. You see the similarity of how the huge alliance organizations are formed after major Conflicts? NATO, I believe was formed during the Cold War.

Season 3 worked the terrorism angle in its entirety. This is a short mini arc that could lead to War. This isn't about them reworking the same plotlines, this is stuff that Coto says will explain a lot of things from established Trek Lore (i.e. The Romulan Wars).

I can hardly wait.

--------

Reply
Quote

I think it's slightly in ENTERPRISE's future | Report this post to moderator
By: luckybucky (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:08:28 on Sep 03, 2004

Right on. This sounds like the kind of story I wanted in Season 1 and which, if they'd delivered, would have made the Xindi arc unnecessary.

I don' think the use of the term Federation is necessarily an error. It could be another flash-forward episode like the one we got last year with the humans on Ceti Alpha V.

--------

"Aha! Advancing on me only brings you closer to the cold wrath that is my spork!" - Bucky the Katt

Quote

A Way Around the "Federation" Comment | Report this post to moderator
By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:29:13 on Sep 03, 2004

Almost everyone thinks that the U.N. was created in 1945. Well, that is wrong. The term "United Nations" was first used IIRC in '42 or '43 as the offical term for the Allies, esp. the U.S., Great Britain, and Russia.

In the same way, perhaps in the years before the founding of UFP, the term "Federation" was used for Earth, Vulcan, the Xindi, and perhaps Andor.

Or, the outcome of the Xindi arc could be a loose assocation of worlds called the "Federation," similar to the EU, NATO, or the Articles of Confederation, but whose primary mission is security.

--------

Quote

The Forge | Report this post to moderator
By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:18:19 on Sep 03, 2004

Isn't there a book called "Vulcan's Forge"?

--------

"Take a Romulan chill pill and have some faith!"
-Erik Jendresen, writer of Star Trek: The Beginning

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-General George S. Patton Jr.

"I am NOT Scorned."
-Scorned as Gage/Gage_2

Quote

RE: The Forge | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:03:46 on Sep 03, 2004

Quote:
Isn't there a book called "Vulcan's Forge"?

Yes. By Josepha Sherman and Susan Shwartz, which I have. And although I read it some time ago, the story seems oddly similar to what they are describing here (the setting, the Romulans, etc) - although in this case, the book took place after the time of GEN, but is done in flashback with a focus on the young Spock trying to find his center. They also wrote "Vulcan's Heart", which I also have.

The 2 authors have a new trilogy coming out called "Vulcan's Soul" to focus on the time when those who chose to leave Vulcan in protest, built up to that point. Some of that was covered by Duane's "Spock's World".

--------

"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

Reply
Quote
- RE: The Forge | Report this post to moderator
  By: tomba1701 (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:03:04 on Sep 05, 2004
  
  I remember the Vulan's Forge/Heart books well. Right up there with Sarek and Spock's World on the "must read" Vulcan novels.
  
  Given that the Reeves-Stevenses are on the writing staff now, I wonder if this is a nod to the novels, which would be kinda neat.
  
  --------
  
  "Commander, laws change, depending on who's making them. But justice, is justice" - Odo, "A Man Alone"
  
  Reply
  Quote
  - RE: The Forge | Report this post to moderator
    By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:32:24 on Sep 05, 2004
    
    Quote:
    Given that the Reeves-Stevenses are on the writing staff now, I wonder if this is a nod to the novels, which would be kinda neat.
    
    There is a new trilogy "Vulcan's Soul" starting now. Gotta get to the bookstore (although I guess I could do Amazon)!
    
    And it would be cool in a fangirl (or fanboy) sortof way!
    
    --------
    
    "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
    ----
    "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
    
    Reply
    Quote

Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Kirk Archer (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:21:06 on Sep 03, 2004

In the wonderful book "The Making of Star Trek" published in 1968, Gene Roddenberry was quite specific in his definition of what constituted Vulcan names. In Roddenberry's view, all Vulcan names would have five letters and begin with an 'S.' Hence names such as SPOCK, SAREK, STANN, SAVIK, etc. The only exceptions would be high-ranking persons of importance, such as T'Pau. I know this is a minor gripe, but it's just another abandonment of canon as set up by Roddenberry. Would it have been so difficult to come up with names to fit in with Gene's ideals? Probably not, but then again, canon has been pretty much ignored over the past few years anyway. Just my opinion.

Quote

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Avilos (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:33:05 on Sep 03, 2004

How many possible names could there be following those rules? Not many. Being a Superman fan it reminds me of rules with Kryptonian names. All men having names like Jor-El and women with ones like Lara and with the same number of letters. Well it does not work. It is just to limiting.

Reply
Quote

Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator
By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:29:44 on Sep 03, 2004

The Making of Star Trek was indeed a wonderful book. My copy is missing both the front and back covers.

However, as far as I can tell, it wasn't Roddenberry, but Robert Justman who suggested the naming patterns you described above. Here is the text from The Making of Star Trek as regards this:

*****************
To: Gene Roddenberry Date: May 3, 1966
From: Bob Justman Subject:STAR TREK VULCAN PROPER NAMES

Dear Gene:
I would like to suggest that all proper names for denizens of Mr. Spock's "PLANET VULCAN" follow a set routine.

To wit: all names begin with the letters "SP" and end with the letter "K." All names to have a total of five letters in them-no more and no less.

Therefore: Mr. Spock aptly fits this pattern. Other names would be as follows:

Spook Spenk Spurk Spakk

Spuck Sponk Spawk Spekk

Spack Spiik Spauk Spikk

Speek Spalk Speuk Spokk

Spouk Spelk Spuik Spukk

Spaak Spolk Spouk Spark

Spilk Spulk Splak Sperk

Spiak Spirk Splek Spirk

Spunk Spark Splik Spork

Spank Spork Splok Spurk

Spink Sperk Spluk Spxyx

Hope that the suggestions are of immense help to you.
I remain,

Your humble and obedient servant,
Robert H. Justman

(Herb Solow must have gotten wind of that memo, because this memo was issued shortly after the one above)

To: Gene Roddenberry Date: May 5, 1966
From: Herb Solow Subject: PLANET VULCAN PROPER NAMES

Dear Gene:
In an industry that is founded on the uncontrollable appetite for creativity, it is indeed heartwarming for the management of a major studio to receive a copy of a memo that deals with such an intensely competitive and accurate discussion of proper names on the planet Vulcan.

However, what with time being of the essence, with our schedule callling for early production of our series to commence in three short weeks, I feel enough time -rather, more than enough time-has been spend devising names for Mr. Spock's relatives. With a deep respect for creativity, I feel we should go on to something of greater importance.
H.F.S.

P.S. Have you thought of the name Spiik? Or Sprik? Or Sprak? Or Sprok? Or Spruk? Or Spudk? Or Spidk? Or Spuck? Or Spisk? Or Spask? Or Spesk? Or Spask? Or any of the other seventy-eight I have devised?

P.P.S. Please refer to Mr. Justman's May 3 memo and you will find that the fifth name in column one is the same as the sixth name in column three. I understand that you science fiction people with your technical jargon have a word to describe this happening. It is known as a "mistake."

P.P.P.S. What do you say if all the people on the planet Vulcan are lawyers (interesting idea) and they all have a firm name like Spook, Speek, Spork, Splik, and Roddenberry? (The last name is necessary to keep the audience aware at all times that this relates to science fiction.)

P.P.P.P.S. Also note that in the May 3 memo the eighth name in column two is the same as the eight nbame in column four. Also the tenth name in column two is the same as the ninth name in column four. There are probably others, but my time is too valuable to waste pointing out that the seventh name in column one is the same name as the third name in column two.

*************

... and in the spirit of conserving valuable time, I will not re-type the rest of the memos on the subject, as they degrade into silliness. The bottom line here is that your assertion is untrue. It's a nice idea, but that adherence isn't a hard fast rule, and there are inherent problems in trying to have ALL Vulcan names follow such a rule.

Clearly, Vulcan Females tend to have names that begin with "T", but these things may be regional or may have other criteria that dictates what one's name is. Vulcans such as Savik, Stonn, Selar, Soval may be from the same continent, or were born under some celestial circumstances that dictate their names. Since a name is necessary to differentiate one Vulcan from another, they may have Random Vulcan name generators with which Vulcan parents choose the names of their children. Also, it should be noted that somewhere on TOS, someone said that Spock's real name would be impossible to pronounce. For all we know, Spock's real name could be Myxyzptlk.

There is no canonical evidence to really give credence to the assertion that Vulcan names all follow the "SP" five letter rule ending in "K".

--------

"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here."

Reply
Quote
- RE: Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:25:23 on Sep 05, 2004
  
  I love Solow's response.
  
  --------
  
  'It was beautiful, we were selling rich women their fat asses back to them' - Tylor Durden
  
  Reply
  Quote
- RE: Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Kirk Archer (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:22:16 on Sep 03, 2004
  
  Hey, thanks for the refresher! I haven't looked at that book since I was in the sixth grade and that was many years ago. I didn't realize it was the wonderful Robert Justman who suggested the Vulcan names idea, I just naturally assumed it was Roddenberry. I suppose the number of names would be limited if they had to start with "SP" and end with a "K." It was just something that had stuck with me all these years and I wanted to mention it, because even to my 11 year old mind some of the names that resulted from the back-and-forth memos were humorous. I certainly would recommend that book to anyone interested in the early years of TOS. If I'm not mistaken, it was the very first non-fiction book written about Star Trek, and remains one of the best.
  
  Reply
  Quote
  - That book is my bible, and I'm approaching my rapture! | Report this post to moderator
    By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:27:46 on Sep 03, 2004
    
    The Making of Star Trek was the one book that I consider my STAR TREK bible. From an early age, I have been interested in television and film production. STAR TREK was a shining example of the sort of thing I would want to do. STAR TREK was this little universe where there was congruence and interrelation between elements (which is why I personally get upset at the cavalier way in which the franchise has been handled as of late) So, anyway... all these years later I am at the early stages of getting a development deal from a major motion picture studio (NOT Paramount!) If it has even a quarter of the success of STAR TREK, I will be happy.
    
    I remember when I first saw that book, my best freind had it and it looked so cool with the Enterprise on the cover firing it's phasers. When I first got the book, all I could really do was look at the pictures as reading books was a little daunting to me. I took that book everywhere and little by little it began to show signs of aging. One day the front cover fell off. A few years later the back cover also fell off. Finally, I started reading it, and when I did, I read it again and again. I still have that original copy. It gives such a great accounting of the things they had to consider and deal with in trying to get the show on the air. Even at the printing of this book, it was apparent that STAR TREK fandom was growing, but there was not even the slightest hint that it would grow to the levels of worldwide acclaim that it enjoys today. STAR TREK, the little TV show that took chances, the vision of Gene Roddenberry and the legacy that the show has today has had an impact on society and the world both socially and technologically. The silly sci-fi show that lasted three years has grown into something larger than it's origins, and even through what I consider to be a major straying from the course for the franchise, STAR TREK is still an awesome vision for humankind's future. I hate to say it but if they don't get it all together and put more care into their product, perhaps I or someone else will create something that will supplant STAR TREK's sci-fi market share.
    
    Vision is what made STAR TREK great, this book exemplifies it. I reccomend this book to every STAR TREK fan, regardless of which series is their favorite, it is the genesis of the fandom which keeps the franchise afloat.
    
    --------
    
    "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here."
    
    Reply
    Quote
- RE: Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Jupiter (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:42:43 on Sep 03, 2004
  
  Tsk, Tsk. You forgot the names of the two most famous Vulcan comedians in history: Spits and Shits.
  
  They do a great Abbott and Costello routine, "Whose on Kolinar?" It puts all the Vulcans in stitches.
  
  --------
  
  If we wanted to read political opinions, we wouldn't be coming here.
  
  Reply
  Quote
  - Vulcan humor... | Report this post to moderator
    By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:06:53 on Sep 03, 2004
    
    Spits: I was in the holosuite the other day.
    
    Shits: What were you doing there?
    
    Spits: I was watching baseball.
    
    Shits: SPACEBALLS? I did not understand that movie, it was the most illogical thing I have ever seen. Particularly Dark Helmet.
    
    Spits: No, baseball... a human sport from the 19th to 21st centuries until water polo became popular.
    
    Shits: Baseball? I remember hearing something about baseball once.
    
    Spits: Yes, you swing a piece of wood at a small sphere traveling at 90 miles per hour...
    
    Shits: How can you hit a small sphere if you are traveling at 90 miles per hour?
    
    Spits: No, the sphere travels at 90 miles per hour, the batter stands still.
    
    Shits: It doesn't sound like much of a sport if you stand still and swing at a sphere.
    
    Spits: The object is to hit the ball with the bat, if you hit the ball, you must then run around the bases.
    
    Shits: So this sport can only be played on a starbase?
    
    Spits: You are beginning to irritate me.
    
    Shits: Irritation would indicate that your emotions are out of control.
    
    Spits: Your logic is... astounding.
    
    Shits: Have you completed the Kolinahr?
    
    Spits: Yes, but exposure to you seems to counteract it.
    
    Shits: Dakh orfik-kel aushfamaluhr shaukaush fi'aifa mazhiv.
    Sha'koshtri korseiven bai'elkhrul-akteiben t'Kolinahr.
    (Our ancestors cast out their animal passions here on these sands.
    Our race was saved by attainment of Kolinahr.)
    
    Spits: Kolinahr -- k'fai'ei ek'zherka t'forti foshuhl.
    (Kolinahr: Through which all emotion is finally shed.)
    
    Shits: Zup-tor vu akarshif - Spits --
    i'poprah fasei setebuhk t'ovsot-olozhika.
    (You have labored long, Spits . . .
    now receive from us this symbol of total logic.)
    
    (at which point Shits hits Spits in the face with a pie.)
    
    --------
    
    "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here."
    
    Reply
    Quote
    - RE: Vulcan humor... | Report this post to moderator
      By: Jupiter (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:53:52 on Sep 03, 2004
      
      Oh my God, you've seen their bit!
      
      But you forgot the part when the heckler in the stands starts making fun of their ballplaying ability.
      
      You know, the part when Shits hits the fan . . .
      
      --------
      
      If we wanted to read political opinions, we wouldn't be coming here.
      
      Reply
      Quote

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Merlinus Ambrosius (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:12:03 on Sep 03, 2004

Thats a pretty limited number of names. I'd hate to be the Vulcan who got stuck with "Shity". Or what about the poor one who got "Sssss"?

--------

Scientists discover the world that exists;
engineers create the world that never was.
-Theodore von Kármán

Reply
Quote

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:53:14 on Sep 03, 2004 | (2)

Quote:
Hence names such as SPOCK, SAREK, STANN, SAVIK, etc.

Actually its spelled Saavik. Since Gene served as Executive Consultant during the production of "The Wrath of Khan", the movie in Which the character of Lt. Saavik debuted, that debunks that theory.

Although, to be fair, I think I remember reading somewhere that her named was changed or they added an extra "a" or something. I can't put my finger on it.

You can argue that her character was originally written to be half Romulan. But since events and facts that appear "on Screen" only can be considered as canon, it wouldn't get far. There was never any "ON SCREEN" reference, to my recollection that Saavik was half Romulan, though we know from interviews that it was in some of the original drafts.

--------

Reply
Quote
- RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
  By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:37:47 on Sep 03, 2004
  
  Quote:
  Quote:Hence names such as SPOCK, SAREK, STANN, SAVIK, etc.
  
  Actually its spelled Saavik. Since Gene served as Executive Consultant during the production of "The Wrath of Khan", the movie in Which the character of Lt. Saavik debuted, that debunks that theory.
  
  No it doesn't because what does Kirk call her? "Mister Saavik", and she certainly wasn't a "he". Ie., this was Roddenberry's apparent attempt to de-genderize in the future of even Kirk's later times (which we also see happening in early TNG with the clothing, where women can wear pants and men a skort as a uniform). Thus the use of a "T'" prefix, traditionally used for female Vulcans (not just for dignitaries), disappears in this instance for Saavik in her position in Star Fleet. Similarly for Selar.
  
  Thus presumably she was "T'Saavik" and "Selar" was "T'Selar".
  
  Quote:
  
  Although, to be fair, I think I remember reading somewhere that her named was changed or they added an extra "a" or something. I can't put my finger on it.
  
  I've always seen it with 2 "a"s.
  
  Quote:
  
  You can argue that her character was originally written to be half Romulan. But since events and facts that appear "on Screen" only can be considered as canon, it wouldn't get far.
  
  But that's not what he's arguing.
  
  Quote:
  
  There was never any "ON SCREEN" reference, to my recollection that Saavik was half Romulan, though we know from interviews that it was in some of the original drafts.
  
  In one of the deleted scenes, this supposedly was revealed. But it's still not canon.
  
  --------
  
  "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
  ----
  "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
  
  Reply
  Quote
  - RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
    By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:09:34 on Sep 03, 2004
    
    i was referring to the number of letters. there are 6 letters in Saavik.
    
    --------
    
    Reply
    Quote
    - RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
      By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:48:45 on Sep 03, 2004
      
      Quote:
      i was referring to the number of letters. there are 6 letters in Saavik.
      
      What does this have to do with what you wrote above that I quoted and responded to?
      
      --------
      
      "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
      ----
      "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
      
      Reply
      Quote
      - RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:06:05 on Sep 04, 2004
        
        read the original post about vulcan names
        
        --------
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:11:51 on Sep 04, 2004
        
        What does this that you wrote:
        
        "Actually its spelled Saavik. Since Gene served as Executive Consultant during the production of "The Wrath of Khan", the movie in Which the character of Lt. Saavik debuted, that debunks that theory."
        
        have to do with what you claim and what the poster wrote and what the actual content of the memo from Justman was about with respect to TOS?
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:55:22 on Sep 04, 2004
        
        The original poster wrote:
        
        Quote:
        In Roddenberry's view, all Vulcan names would have five letters and begin with an 'S.' Hence names such as SPOCK, SAREK, STANN, SAVIK, etc.
        
        Well, the actual name is Saavik, has six letters. Not 5. So did the poster get it wrong or is this a violation?
        
        --------
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:44:30 on Sep 04, 2004 | (1)
        
        And Deslok posted a transcription of Justman's actual memo establishing what the thinking was for the naming of Vulcans, in order to elaborate on where the original poster was getting this from.
        
        But you went on to claim a "debunking" of a "theory" and although the poster was slightly off, he was on the right track.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:39:48 on Sep 04, 2004
        
        Reading over Deslok's post, I have found that the idea wasn't that of Roddenberry nor did he conform to it. (i.e. There is no "p" in "Sarek" or "Sybok" or "Saavik". And once again, "Saavik" has six letters and not 5.
        
        The memo, to me, was nothing more than bickering and Sarcasm from the Studio and production crew. There are no rules, let alone, canonical rules.
        
        So, once again Jadzia baby, the theory is...ummm....debunked.
        
        --------
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:57:40 on Sep 04, 2004
        
        Quote:
        The memo, to me, was nothing more than bickering and Sarcasm from the Studio and production crew
        
        I just wanted to point out that the memos between Justman and Solow sound an awful lot like we here on the internet discussing STAR TREK, and those guys didn't even have the internet, just internal department memos.
        
        ...and now, back to our regularly scheduled argument...
        
        --------
        
        "Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here."
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:55:58 on Sep 04, 2004 | (2)
        
        Prefering to toss it off as a "nothing" and "debunking", you refuse to even look at what was actually done in the canon of Trek, en masse, with respect to the naming scheme. And I point this out later in this thread with examples. But of course like others, you know all and nothing came before you and I doubt that you'll scroll down to read it... baby. But that's to be expected.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:39:34 on Sep 04, 2004 | (1)
        
        Damn. Double post
        
        --------
        
        Reply
        Quote
- RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
  By: Mr. Xindi (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:00:30 on Sep 03, 2004
  
  Wasn't there some rare footage on a website, where she say's she's half Romulan, I'm nearly sure I've seen this.
  
  --------
  
  Hoshi: I was hoping you'd put up a fight.
  
  T'Pol: I'm surprised you're not exhausted from all the beds, you've jumped into, recently.
  
  "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II"
  
  Reply
  Quote

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:50:04 on Sep 03, 2004

Quote:
In Roddenberry's view, all Vulcan names would have five letters and begin with an 'S.' Hence names such as SPOCK, SAREK, STANN, SAVIK, etc. The only exceptions would be high-ranking persons of importance, such as T'Pau.

I used to have that book a long time ago (and it went the way of a garage sale after the center began to fall out... LOL). But from what I understand, it was "males" had names with the "S" and females with the "T'" as a prefix.

Thus you have (including under Roddenberry), a "T'Pau", a "T'Pring" (Spock's intended), a "T'Lar" (the priestess who performed the Fal Tor Pan in TSFS), etc. And with respect to females such as "Saavik" and "Selar", the assumption was that the names were modified to a Federation "standard" type (ie., Kirk, et al called "Saavik", "Mr. Saavik" to remove a gender from the formal identifier "Mister"), instead of using the traditional "T'Saavik" or "T'Selar", etc.

Quote:

I know this is a minor gripe,

I don't consider it minor at all. I have been sortof hand-waving over it - particuarly when DS9 started doing it with a "Lojal" and others, but I think now is the time to cease doing such.

I wouldn't necessarily expect them all to do it because even in TNG, we have a "Taurik" (who is male - although he was named in a season after Roddenberry had died) and with VOY, a "Tuvok" also a male and a "Vorik" a male as well. But I think some of the wackier names need to be reigned in. The use of "Soval" and T'Pol and coming up, T'Les is still staying with the tradition, but this definitely needs to be kept in mind.

Quote:

but it's just another abandonment of canon as set up by Roddenberry.

Agreed.

Quote:

Would it have been so difficult to come up with names to fit in with Gene's ideals? Probably not, but then again, canon has been pretty much ignored over the past few years anyway. Just my opinion

Shared by more than you think, for sure.

--------

"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

Reply
Quote

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Mr. Xindi (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:34:55 on Sep 03, 2004

Now this is nitpicking.....

--------

Hoshi: I was hoping you'd put up a fight.

T'Pol: I'm surprised you're not exhausted from all the beds, you've jumped into, recently.

"In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II"

Reply
Quote
- RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
  By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:07:43 on Sep 03, 2004
  
  Quote:
  Now this is nitpicking.....
  
  No, it's the known "social/cultural" Vulcan archetype for names.
  
  It's no different than most Humans being shown to have at least 2 names - first (given) and last (family), and sometimes "middle", eg., "James T. Kirk"... or Bajorans, who use their last name (or "family name") AS their "first name" in normal discourse or when written. Ie., "Kira Nerys" means her "first name" IS "Nerys"... And on occassion, Odo would call her "Nerys" when not calling her "Major Kira". Similarly, Ro Laren, another Bajoran, has her family name of "Ro" listed first.
  
  You can add another instance, where the vast majority of Talaxians have an "X" somewhere in their name - of course "Neelix"... But then his sister was named "Alixia". And in VOY "Fair Trade", we meet his friend named "Wixiban". In VOY "Homestead", he meets some more Talaxians (which was implausible but oh well...), named "Dexa" and "Brax" and "Oxilon".
  
  Why should Human and Bajoran and Talaxian naming archetypes be "acceptable" and essentially adhered to, but not Vulcan?
  
  --------
  
  "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
  ----
  "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
  
  Reply
  Quote
  - RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
    By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:47:01 on Sep 03, 2004
    
    It stands to reason that more American men have a first name that starts with 'J' than any other letter.
    
    That doesn't mean that all American men should have a first name that starts with 'J'.
    
    Just because something is common doesn't mean it's the rule. Loosen up. Find something else to get upset about. I'm sure you'll have no problem there.
    
    Reply
    Quote
    - RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
      By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:52:48 on Sep 03, 2004
      
      Quote:
      It stands to reason that more American men have a first name that starts with 'J' than any other letter.
      
      That doesn't mean that all American men should have a first name that starts with 'J'.
      
      Just because something is common doesn't mean it's the rule. Loosen up. Find something else to get upset about. I'm sure you'll have no problem there.
      
      It seems to me that you confuse the difference between reality and literary structure, plot devices, and archetypes used for story-telling purposes. Get some education. I'm sure it's available out there if you look and then maybe you can even fathom what I just wrote.
      
      --------
      
      "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
      ----
      "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
      
      Reply
      Quote
      - RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:38:02 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        There is indeed a different b/w reality and fiction - certain rules must be followed in a fictional universe to make it believable (ironic if you think about it). However, what I believe is trying to be conveyed here is that whil the majoirty of Vulcan names begin with an S and end with a K, and most female names begin with a T' - not all need to do this to follow this "archetype."
        
        For example V'Lar (the Vlucan ambassador seen in ENT Season 1 "Fallen Hero") may not have the T' structure to her name, but her name looks and sound vulcan. Sovol is another example. So really what I am trying to get at here is that each alien species does have a naming type structure that is followed to an extent, with deviations here and there - but the names still sound alien and sound like a certain species as well.
        
        As far as I'm concerned, Enterprise has not deviated from this at all - as all of it's Vulcan names have sounded irrefutably Vulcan - except for the Vulcans seen in Fusion (where we have Tolaris, Tavin, and Kov - somewhat un-Vulcan names if you ask me), which I chalk up to the fact because these are Vulcans w/out Logic - there names help to further this message.
        
        --------
        
        “People who are willing to give up their liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
        
        -Benjamin Franklin
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:53:14 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        There is indeed a different b/w reality and fiction - certain rules must be followed in a fictional universe to make it believable (ironic if you think about it). However, what I believe is trying to be conveyed here is that whil the majoirty of Vulcan names begin with an S and end with a K, and most female names begin with a T' - not all need to do this to follow this "archetype."
        
        Sure. I posted twice with examples, pre-ENT. I guess I need to do it a 3rd time:
        
        Saavik (ST2, ST3), Selar (TNG), Valeris (ST6), Tuvok (VOY), Vorik (VOY), Sakonna (DS9), Taurik (TNG), Chu'lok (DS9), Lojal (DS9)
        
        Quote:
        
        For example V'Lar (the Vlucan ambassador seen in ENT Season 1 "Fallen Hero") may not have the T' structure to her name, but her name looks and sound vulcan. Sovol is another example. So really what I am trying to get at here is that each alien species does have a naming type structure that is followed to an extent, with deviations here and there - but the names still sound alien and sound like a certain species as well.
        
        Correct and what I think the point was that given the track record for many things in ENT, this must be kept in mind.
        
        Quote:
        
        As far as I'm concerned, Enterprise has not deviated from this at all - as all of it's Vulcan names have sounded irrefutably Vulcan - except for the Vulcans seen in Fusion (where we have Tolaris, Tavin, and Kov - somewhat un-Vulcan names if you ask me), which I chalk up to the fact because these are Vulcans w/out Logic - there names help to further this message.
        
        I think the original poster of the comment was actually being more generic regarding the trends across the 5 series and originally made note of some of the behind the scenes discussion that was included in the book "The Making of Star Trek" (which I used to have before it literally fell apart). And it is but one of a number of things that need to be kept in mind when attempting to make a species consistent from series to series.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:31:40 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        Perhaps I have misunderstood you - from your comments it sounded like you were attacking Enterprise for not using Vulcanesque names in the series. Is the correct? Or are you just saying that alien names need to have a certain consitency to them?
        
        I would disagree with the first assertation, but definitely agree with the second.
        
        --------
        
        “People who are willing to give up their liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
        
        -Benjamin Franklin
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:01:47 on Sep 06, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Perhaps I have misunderstood you - from your comments it sounded like you were attacking Enterprise for not using Vulcanesque names in the series. Is the correct?
        
        Obviously the fact that ENT used "T'Pol", "Soval", and soon "T'Les", etc., means that they are generally following tradition. However I have an actual issue with DS9 and its "Lojal" and "Chu'lok" - these characters of course happening post-Roddenberry, although there is a "Sakonna" and a "Solok" later in the series as well. Similarly in VOY with "Vorik" (although I know in that case, the character was supposedly patterned after and is similar-sounding to "Taurik" from TNG "Lower Decks"), etc. And "Taurik" was a post-Roddenberry Vulcan, coming near the end of that series. ;-) Ie., there should be an attempt towards consistency. It is obviously impossible to have to do this all the time, but the attempt should at least be made. That way, one can "spot" a Vulcan from afar. And it is stuff like this that has made the species "known" among the "masses" allowing them to become a true enigma over these 38 years. ;-)
        
        I mean, I wonder what people would do if all Klingons were suddenly named like "Arne Darvin" (who was a unique case as an undercover Klngon, surgically altered to be "Human") - just out of nowhere.
        
        Quote:
        
        Or are you just saying that alien names need to have a certain consitency to them?
        
        This is also something that Trek has tended to do to distinguish Human from alien and I am of the position that such should continue.
        
        Quote:
        
        I would disagree with the first assertation, but definitely agree with the second.
        
        Well hopefully I clarified. :-)
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
      - RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:30:32 on Sep 04, 2004
        
        Quote:
        It seems to me that you confuse the difference between reality and literary structure, plot devices, and archetypes used for story-telling purposes. Get some education. I'm sure it's available out there if you look and then maybe you can even fathom what I just wrote.
        
        How many Star Trek episodes have you sold?
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: lnformed (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:28:33 on Sep 06, 2004 | (1)
        
        The fact you would post a photo like that destroys any credibility you would have. Sheesh, what a gutless, board-trolling coward "Darth Brooks" is.
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:14:33 on Sep 04, 2004
        
        Wow. How meaningless a response.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:38:40 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        You suggested that I don't understand writing, and more specifically, Star Trek writing.
        
        I believe the fact that I am responsible for successfully creating a Star Trek episode is evidence which contradicts your theory. ;-)
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:59:02 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        You suggested that I don't understand writing, and more specifically, Star Trek writing.
        
        And I gave details on what has been done for multiple species in this franchise to indicate how they tie-in to each other. Yet you preferred to make the "fiction" into "reality" as some sort of justification for the creation of an incoherent universe.
        
        Quote:
        
        I believe the fact that I am responsible for successfully creating a Star Trek episode is evidence which contradicts your theory. ;-)
        
        Indeed. And what does this have to do with what I wrote? ;-)
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:53:06 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Yet you preferred to make the "fiction" into "reality" as some sort of justification for the creation of an incoherent universe.
        
        The fact that not all Vulcan male names start with 'S' and not all Vulcan female names start with 'T'P' makes for an incoherent universe?
        
        Please. Not every alien species has to have some kind of absolute name structure to which the writers must unwaveringly adhere. Commonalities? Sure. It adds flavor. But would I lose any sleep if they gave a Talaxian a name without an 'x' in it? Of course not. I'm much more comfortable chalking up name anomalies to regional differences than worrying about writers callously shattering the Vulcan 'S for guys, T'P for gals' name structure.
        
        And I think Saavik, Tuvok, Dr. Selar, Valeris, Sakonna, Taurik, Vorik, T'Lar, T'Lara, and many more of their Vulcan friends would agree with me.
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:50:32 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Quote:Yet you preferred to make the "fiction" into "reality" as some sort of justification for the creation of an incoherent universe.
        
        The fact that not all Vulcan male names start with 'S' and not all Vulcan female names start with 'T'P' makes for an incoherent universe?
        
        Correct.
        
        Quote:
        
        Please. Not every alien species has to have some kind of absolute name structure to which the writers must unwaveringly adhere. Commonalities? Sure. It adds flavor.
        
        And THAT is what I posted above with the examples. However to encourage me to not think along those lines of making attempts to distinguish "alien" from "Human" is doing a disservice. I might as well eliminate the "alien" names altogether. I mean, why bother? In fact, why bother having any "aliens" at all? Let's just make Trek a cop show and be done with it.
        
        Quote:
        
        But would I lose any sleep if they gave a Talaxian a name without an 'x' in it? Of course not. I'm much more comfortable chalking up name anomalies to regional differences than worrying about writers callously shattering the Vulcan 'S for guys, T'P for gals' name structure.
        
        And I think you take my post to be a bit more than it is. The "trends" are certainly there and help to add to a backstory for a species. Thus you're not left with a bunch of actors with bumpy foreheads spouting lines, but can imagine something truly different from "Humanity", other than what they look like. They are endowed with a different physiology, can evolve on a different planet but they can compare and contrast based on their politics and thinking process.
        
        And this is why I brought up the example of the Bajorans and the Talaxians and how they have been shown to do their naming. But you would rather not do this and have them all the same.
        
        Quote:
        
        And I think Saavik, Tuvok, Dr. Selar, Valeris, Sakonna, Taurik, Vorik, T'Lar, T'Lara, and many more of their Vulcan friends would agree with me.
        
        And if you had read what I posted twice, you have seen my list of names that follow this and those that don't. But this still doesn't mean that I toss aside "cultural" species definitions and foundations in order to pander to the "everybody is a Human" crowd.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:09:41 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        Your argument has become so contrived that I can't even fathom how to respond.
        
        Enjoy your irrational dissatisfaction.
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:22:46 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        If you say so.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
      - RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:48:32 on Sep 03, 2004
        
        *shakes head* another juvenile attack from a supposedly mature person. How sad you have become.
        
        Getting to the subject at hand - the Vulcan archetype for names was never fully established (as shown in Deslok's post) - and thus have a male begin with the a letter other than S, or a female with a letter other than T breaks no canon whatsoever. In addition this supposed "archetype" of yours wasn't even followed in TNG (as you stated above) or in DS9. Why should Enterprise suddenly be held to a higher standing of naming than the previous Trek's. The answer is it, it shouldn't - because there is no higher standard there. No "rules" where ever established. At this point my dear Jadzia you are beginning to sound a bit obsessed with finding mundane faults with Enterprise - some people just can't be pleased no matter what, I believe you are one of these people. Rather a sad way to live life if you ask me ;)
        
        --------
        
        “People who are willing to give up their liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
        
        -Benjamin Franklin
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:04:14 on Sep 04, 2004
        
        Quote:
        *shakes head* another juvenile attack from a supposedly mature person. How sad you have become.
        
        Looks like the "amen corner" strikes again.
        
        Quote:
        
        Getting to the subject at hand
        
        Which you are apparently clueless about.
        
        Quote:
        
        - the Vulcan archetype for names was never fully established (as shown in Deslok's post)
        
        Did you even READ what Deslock transcribed? The fact that the producers were discussing this sort of thing is exactly what folks like TRexx and I have been pointing out with respect to how the behind-the-scenes folks discuss and define an archetype and the "rules" that should roughly define a character and/or in this case, a "fictional species". That way, you won't confuse a Vulcan with a Klingon or a Cardassian with a Romulan or a Ferengi with a Bolian. It goes beyond the latex pieces and spray painted makeup.
        
        I have a copy of the 3rd season TNG "Writer's/Director's Guide" where these types of things got spelled out for those who planned to submit scripts or stories so that there is a consistency maintained, from writer to writer, for the characters and species in this fictional universe.
        
        And when radical changes are made in the archetype, which had been done with, for example, the "Trill", if you look at TNG "The Host", vs Dax in DS9, then people have complained and this issue continues to come up on occassion at places like this, because that causes earlier episodes involving that species, to appear inconsistent with what is shown currently.
        
        The change in the Trill (and I'm not talking "cosmetic" changes like the spots or similar changes that one might see for Klingons and Romulans and their appearance), was something supposedly done to make them more conducive to functioning and interacting with the rest of the species and characters in DS9. However this was one of the rare exceptions, but does not preclude that they can become a 'joined species". Ie., a humanoid "host" in symbiotic relationship with an implanted, long-lived symbiont. THAT archetypical trait remains.
        
        Quote:
        
        - and thus have a male begin with the a letter other than S, or a female with a letter other than T breaks no canon whatsoever.
        
        It has nothing to do with "canon" and everything to do with following the pre-defined archetype and maintaining consistency, as much as possible or reasonable, rather than totally rejecting it.
        
        Quote:
        
        In addition this supposed "archetype" of yours wasn't even followed in TNG (as you stated above) or in DS9.
        
        ???? Are you that desperate to argue the opposite of what anyone says, even if you are wrong? Apparently so.
        
        Quote:
        
        Why should Enterprise suddenly be held to a higher standing of naming than the previous Trek's. The answer is it, it shouldn't - because there is no higher standard there. No "rules" where ever established.
        
        You speak from ignorance and it's telling. And so "S" names and "T" names assigned to Vulcan males and females respectively - and in particular, to Vulcans with speaking roles who populate TOS (and its films), TNG, DS9, and VOY like:
        
        T'Lara (DS9), T'Pring (TOS), T'Pau (TOS), T'Lar (TOS), Tellara/T'Paal (TNG), T'Shannik (TNG), T'Pel (Tuvok's wife, VOY) T'Pel (Ambassador, TNG), T'Pera (VOY), Spock (TOS,TNG), Sarek (TOS,TNG), Sybok (ST5), Solok (DS9), Surak (as seen in TOS "Savage Curtain"), Sakkath (TNG), Savar (TNG), Stonn (TOS), Sonak (ST1), Satok (TNG),
        
        far outnumber the "exceptions":
        
        Saavik (ST2, ST3), Selar (TNG), Valeris (ST6), Tuvok (VOY), Vorik (VOY), Sakonna (DS9), Taurik (TNG), Chu'lok (DS9), Lojal (DS9)
        
        where the "exceptions" are within an expected range of variation - particularly where the females may have dropped the "T" prefix. Point being a certain consistency for the naming conventions of members of the same species, per what I wrote above about the naming portion of the archetypes for Bajorans and Talaxians.
        
        But since you like to flaunt your ignorance, the more you write without even bothering to at least look it up out on the web, the more you expose your ignorance while remaining in that blissful state, throwing out flippant empty proclamations.
        
        You do nothing to help this current show and franchise whatsoever.
        
        Quote:
        
        At this point my dear Jadzia you are beginning to sound a bit obsessed with finding mundane faults with Enterprise - some people just can't be pleased no matter what, I believe you are one of these people. Rather a sad way to live life if you ask me ;)
        
        No, it's people like you who have contributed to the downfall of the Star Trek franchise, with the idiotic PTB going right along pandering to what I have dubbed Trek anarachists. Time for you to go back and watch some Star Trek and stop talking out of your ass.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:07:17 on Sep 04, 2004
        
        I'm not going to even honor this post with a blow by blow response - I'm going to make it very short, very simple, and too the point.
        
        Jadzia - your attacks on people are getting old. If you ever wonder why people attack you, it is most likely because you have attacked them first.
        
        Have you ever noticed how are "discussion" are very rarely on topic, but usually degrade into the same old "you're young and ignorant, so shut up," "well you're a pompus ass hole," etc. Kinda sad don't you think?
        
        So I'm gonna make a deal with you, I won't insult you anymore, if you won't insult me. How 'bout we start anew, and see if we can't get over our own pride. You think that's possible?
        
        --------
        
        “People who are willing to give up their liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
        
        -Benjamin Franklin
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:09:20 on Sep 04, 2004
        
        Quote:
        I'm not going to even honor this post with a blow by blow response - I'm going to make it very short, very simple, and too the point.
        
        Why do you even bother? Ignore what I write then. Block it.
        
        Quote:
        
        Jadzia - your attacks on people are getting old. If you ever wonder why people attack you, it is most likely because you have attacked them first.
        
        You exaggerate. It's only a certain few people like yourself who do such because for some idiotic reason, you feel threatened when I make a good faith effort to look things up and god forbid, post those findings here.
        
        Since you won't read anything past 2 sentences, you totally miss all the wonderful and enlightening discourses between myself and others, that are carried out without all the flippant know-it-all responses that people like you enjoy hurling.
        
        Quote:
        
        Have you ever noticed how are "discussion" are very rarely on topic, but usually degrade into the same old "you're young and ignorant, so shut up," "well you're a pompus ass hole," etc. Kinda sad don't you think?
        
        Again, go look at posts here that are more than sound-bite length and notice the exchanges of information going on. It's only people like you who reduce yourself down to meaningless 1-liners.
        
        Quote:
        
        So I'm gonna make a deal with you, I won't insult you anymore, if you won't insult me. How 'bout we start anew, and see if we can't get over our own pride. You think that's possible?
        
        I will deal with you on equal terms if you would just take some time and effort to be a bit more knowledgeable about the information. That is ALL I ask. It's very simple. Accept that I have an apparently greater interest in this material as one of my hobbies than you do and do take the time to call upon my resources to provide information for those who read these boards. THAT is me. Do YOU think it's possible for you to accept this and stop bitching every time I post "evidence" (whether it's dialog or screenshots or links) to support what I write?
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:39:18 on Sep 04, 2004 | (1)
        
        You dissapoint me again. I honestly did make a good faith offering, I tried to at least.
        
        I neither insulted you, nor made some flippant un-true remark.
        
        Quote:
        You exaggerate. It's only a certain few people like yourself who do such because for some idiotic reason, you feel threatened when I make a good faith effort to look things up and god forbid, post those findings here.
        
        I do not feel threatened, I have no idea where you go that from. I think it's awesome that you know so much about Star Trek - and I would lie if I said I wasn't a little bit jealous. The problem I have with you is your pompus attitude. And I know you will deny it, and that's fine, but it's there, and I don't take kindly to narcissitic people.
        
        Quote:
        Since you won't read anything past 2 sentences, you totally miss all the wonderful and enlightening discourses between myself and others, that are carried out without all the flippant know-it-all responses that people like you enjoy hurling.
        
        What is the point of this? To through out another insult to make yourself feel superior. I always read the whole post - always - every line, every word. And you have had some good discussions with people - but never once with me. And the only reason I can possibly think of, is regardless of what facts I throw out - what research I've done - you pull the age rank on me. So, it becomes because you are older than me, you are always right - I can't fight that.
        
        Quote:
        Again, go look at posts here that are more than sound-bite length and notice the exchanges of information going on. It's only people like you who reduce yourself down to meaningless 1-liners.
        
        I never reduce myself down to meaningless 1-liners - I'm sure I have a few in my posts, to take a jab at a person, but it's neither harmful nor arrogant - but I ALWAYS add meaningful discussion in the post.
        
        And for one who speaks out against the use of 1-liners, you do use them a lot - not only with me, but other members as well. It is easier to fight fire with fire (aka 1-liners against 1-liners), but you should show your age and maturity and refrain from using them - I'll try and do that.
        
        Quote:
        I will deal with you on equal terms if you would just take some time and effort to be a bit more knowledgeable about the information. That is ALL I ask. It's very simple. Accept that I have an apparently greater interest in this material as one of my hobbies than you do and do take the time to call upon my resources to provide information for those who read these boards. THAT is me. Do YOU think it's possible for you to accept this and stop bitching every time I post "evidence" (whether it's dialog or screenshots or links) to support what I write?
        
        You need to realize that not everybody is going to have the same knowledge as you, and YOU CANNOT look down upon people because of that - there is no good reason for it.
        
        You are a damn knowledgeable person when it comes to Star Trek and I have never once denied that, ever. And I have never had a problem with that facts your bring up to support an argument. What I do have a problem with is your apparent disregard for those that post a counter argument - you simply refuse to believe it, or give them the time of day. This was no more apparent than with the disucssion on Star Wars Episode IV and the supposedly scenes Lucas took out. I provided more evidence than you could possibly handle to show that you were wrong - and instead of seceding, you simply stopped posting in the discussion - that's a little sad. If someone proves you wrong, accept, don't be a poor sport.
        
        And again, I never bitch about your evidence or what have you, I "bitch" about your arrogance, cuz it IS NOT needed - and you know that every well.
        
        I'm gonna treat you as an equal now - and I will try my hardest not too look down upon you. If you can't do that with me, that's fine - I'll just be the bigger person. That's all I can offer you.
        
        --------
        
        “People who are willing to give up their liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
        
        -Benjamin Franklin
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:23:36 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        You dissapoint me again. I honestly did make a good faith offering, I tried to at least.
        
        Yes you did. :-) (and don't interpret my "smilie" as being facetious because it isn't)
        
        Quote:
        
        I neither insulted you, nor made some flippant un-true remark.
        
        Unfortunately the written word, without the benefit of tone or body language, does not translate well.
        
        Quote:
        
        I do not feel threatened, I have no idea where you go that from.
        
        If you track your posts, you manage to jump in, out of nowhere, often with incorrect into, when I am responding to someone else.
        
        Quote:
        
        I think it's awesome that you know so much about Star Trek - and I would lie if I said I wasn't a little bit jealous.
        
        And here's the key - dont't be. This is what causes resentment and frustration and it comes across in posts.
        
        Quote:
        
        The problem I have with you is your pompus attitude. And I know you will deny it, and that's fine, but it's there, and I don't take kindly to narcissitic people.
        
        And again with the characterizations. Trust me, there's no need to be such around this place. You seem to see that in my posts and that's not where I'm coming from. Seriously. This is why I say you feel threatened.
        
        Quote:
        
        What is the point of this? To through out another insult to make yourself feel superior.
        
        Nope. Stop being so sensitive.
        
        Quote:
        
        I always read the whole post - always - every line, every word.
        
        Really? I have seen responses from you complaining that I write too much. ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        And you have had some good discussions with people - but never once with me.
        
        Untrue. Go back some time. We've had some interesting discussions.
        
        Quote:
        
        And the only reason I can possibly think of, is regardless of what facts I throw out - what research I've done - you pull the age rank on me. So, it becomes because you are older than me, you are always right - I can't fight that.
        
        Sure you can. Quite a few people around here do it all the time and impress me to no end.
        
        Quote:
        
        I never reduce myself down to meaningless 1-liners - I'm sure I have a few in my posts, to take a jab at a person, but it's neither harmful nor arrogant - but I ALWAYS add meaningful discussion in the post.
        
        So you do do this? This is what I mean.
        
        Quote:
        
        And for one who speaks out against the use of 1-liners, you do use them a lot - not only with me, but other members as well.
        
        When someone decides to attack me with nonsense.
        
        Quote:
        
        It is easier to fight fire with fire (aka 1-liners against 1-liners), but you should show your age and maturity and refrain from using them - I'll try and do that.
        
        I'm sorry but I will post the way I post. I don't post flame bait top threads, I don't have side-discussions about other posters laced with snide remarks. It's the type of thing that you and others enjoy doing. I've been at this for a long time and don't have time for silliness. I end up doing alot of behind the scenes reading in order to extract info for posting here. Mozilla's "tabbed browsing" function is the bomb - where right now, I have 8 tabs sitting at 8 different websites where I can get info. THAT is what I do - not thinking up 1-liners to hurl at people out of nowhere.
        
        Quote:
        
        You need to realize that not everybody is going to have the same knowledge as you, and YOU CANNOT look down upon people because of that - there is no good reason for it.
        
        But here's your problem - I don't "look down" on people. I post information that I have and that I have found out on the 'net. I will continually help people out here when they are unsure because I have stuff bookmarked, etc. And I welcome TRexx's additional resources in support because he has access to digital copies of episodes and transcripts of ENT. And alot of folks do actually read what we write, believe it or not. If you feel that insecure when we do this and consider it "looking down", then there's nothing I can do about it. It's a matter of misperception and falsely assigning a motive to what I post, which is incorrect. And once you have done this, the whole tenor of your responses to me changes and goes towards the negative and THAT is why things degrade into an abyss. I have no motive other than to share. There are others around who I see "share" as well - even "trek lady" (formerly "squirrel", who throws all sorts of little factual trivia things about the actors and the shows in her brief posts).
        
        Quote:
        
        You are a damn knowledgeable person when it comes to Star Trek and I have never once denied that, ever. And I have never had a problem with that facts your bring up to support an argument.
        
        Oh yes you have. That's part of the reason why this little subthread is here.
        
        Quote:
        
        What I do have a problem with is your apparent disregard for those that post a counter argument - you simply refuse to believe it, or give them the time of day.
        
        What you miss is that I have often "agreed to disagree" with people. I do this all the time and many others do this all the time. However you don't understand what that means and would rather go into a "yes it is", "no it isn't" mode. Part of the dynamics of the 'net and debate is that people don't have to "win" or "lose". You think I'm here to "win". That's not why I post at all and this I think, is why you feel so threatened. I'm here to provide information and get information and eventually interpret and discuss that information.
        
        The fact that after years and years on Trek discussion boards, I am finding that some of TPTB are actually looking at places like this now (forget USENET or STREK-L back in the day). This is more than enough of a draw for me, with a realization that finally finally, we do have a "voice". Before, we were pretty much only talking to one another, except for the few like a Ron Moore who would post over on AOHell. This is an incredible opportunity and something that I never in my life ever expected and it is thrilling.
        
        Quote:
        
        This was no more apparent than with the disucssion on Star Wars Episode IV and the supposedly scenes Lucas took out.
        
        And see - this is where your problem lies... Dozens of threads have occurred since that point and you are still smoldering back there. Move on.
        
        Quote:
        
        I provided more evidence than you could possibly handle to show that you were wrong - and instead of seceding, you simply stopped posting in the discussion - that's a little sad. If someone proves you wrong, accept, don't be a poor sport.
        
        No - It had degraded into a flame war and "yes it is", "no it isn't" nonsense. Meaning it would go nowhere. The original poster said that he was pretty much done and ready to go onto something else - yet you probably missed that. You need to accept that in net discourse that the "agree to disagree" is very common and is normally what debaters decide to do to get past an unresovable point and move on, so that they can cover other subjects. But you and others show that you are unaware of this. I know what I saw, others in that thread saw the same - and the last time that subject came up, it was discussed by people who saw the same. You all decided to make it personal and since "it takes 2 to tango", had I continued, it would have errupted into an all-out flame war where Archangel probably would have intervened. So when no resolution is at hand - one "agrees to disagree". THAT is standard stuff that has been around for decades. It has nothing to do with "concession" or anything else. It is a good tool that allows posters to maintain the positions they have and feel very strongly about and move on. Go through some debates around here and you will see it used.
        
        Quote:
        
        And again, I never bitch about your evidence or what have you, I "bitch" about your arrogance, cuz it IS NOT needed - and you know that every well.
        
        No - you complain about the length. Go back and re-read your posts.
        
        Quote:
        
        I'm gonna treat you as an equal now - and I will try my hardest not too look down upon you. If you can't do that with me, that's fine - I'll just be the bigger person. That's all I can offer you.
        
        I am willing to discuss things with you, willing to go out of my way to support views that you have that I agree with, and will even provide evidence for you in support of what you write from my resources... and I have always been willing to do this for anyone. But if someone attacks me and I defend - don't jump in the middle of it and start doing your amen corner because you will get it from me too.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:25:53 on Sep 05, 2004 | (1)
        
        Short and simple:
        
        I don't feel threatened - like you said it's not always easy to tell someone's emotion through the written word only. You may continue to think that if you like, but it is simply untrue.
        
        I have gone back and read through some of my posts (not all of them obviously) - have yet to find one were I complain about the length of your posts. And even if I did, that certainly does not mean I didn't read the whole thing.
        
        I have never denied your knowledge of trek - and I am jealous of it in a good way (yes that is possible) - there is no resentment there - just admiration.
        
        The age thing has been an "issue" for sometime now - I can't remember in what post it first came up, and frankly I don't care - I'm going to move on from it, and I hope you do the same.
        
        As far as agreeing to disagree that's absolutely fine with me, in fact I do that in many arguments I have with people - stubborness can be a blessing and a curse. A simple post saying lets agree to disagree goes wonders - simply stopping posting on a thread is a bit rude - and you know that.
        
        As far as the Star Wars thing - I was having fun arguing that with you, apparently you were getting really upset about it. And does it really matter if the top poster is ready to move on? NO, not at all - other people can argue away as much as they want - people throw out ides, and let others run with it.
        
        P.S. - I use Safari on the Mac, has a damn cool tabbed browsing feature as well - better than Mozilla if you ask me.
        
        --------
        
        “People who are willing to give up their liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
        
        -Benjamin Franklin
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:19:00 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        
        As far as agreeing to disagree that's absolutely fine with me, in fact I do that in many arguments I have with people - stubborness can be a blessing and a curse. A simple post saying lets agree to disagree goes wonders - simply stopping posting on a thread is a bit rude - and you know that.
        
        When an exchange is too heated, sometimes "stopping" is enough to cool it off. This is when you have gotten beyond any point to "agree to disagree".
        
        Quote:
        
        As far as the Star Wars thing - I was having fun arguing that with you, apparently you were getting really upset about it.
        
        It had degraded into a "yes it is", "no it isn't".
        
        Quote:
        
        And does it really matter if the top poster is ready to move on? NO, not at all -
        
        Sure. As far as I was concerned, the original post was to provide links to clips supposedly showing footage that had been inserted in the upcoming DVD release of the SE trilogy. And after several days, the discussions had strayed offtopic.
        
        Quote:
        
        other people can argue away as much as they want - people throw out ides, and let others run with it.
        
        Sure - but again, it had pretty much gone off topic regarding the new revisions that Lucas had allegedly made to the upcoming first trilogy and no one really knows whether that stuff that was linked to will actually be there until the stuff comes out. And the links to that stuff were mainly the reason why I even bothered with the thread at all.
        
        Quote:
        
        P.S. - I use Safari on the Mac, has a damn cool tabbed browsing feature as well - better than Mozilla if you ask me.
        
        Well I've used a number of different browsers on my linux, including Mozilla, Opera, Nutscrape (heh), Konqueror, and Galleon. Haven't had chance to try installing Firefox. Wanted to wait for a couple more releases before I do since I sortof started out with Mozilla with early releases - like 0.5 or something and sometimes get tired of "beta testing". LOL Mozilla still seems compatible to most sites, although it still tends to blow up like its parent Nutscrape, but at least isn't as bloated. Sometimes I'm tempted to go back to Mosaic, which was the first graphical browser. I know one of my buddies who I worked with downloaded v. 1.0 back in the early '90s and we got our first taste of something other than a text browser. LOL
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
        Reply
        Quote
        
        RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
        By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:33:12 on Sep 05, 2004
        
        I would defintiely give Firefox a chance - it's essentially Mozilla with out all the bloat - and a much better interface - at least I think so.
        
        --------
        
        “People who are willing to give up their liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
        
        -Benjamin Franklin
        
        Reply
        Quote

Sounds great! | Report this post to moderator
By: El4short (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 12:52:50 on Sep 03, 2004

Now THESE are the kinds of stories I've been waiting to see! The Vulcan arc sounds terrific -- thank goodness for Manny Coto. So far all the episodes I've read about show real promise for being great TREK. It's the first time I've been truly excited about a new season!

El

Quote

RE: Sounds great! | Report this post to moderator
By: PokeTrek (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 16:12:00 on Sep 03, 2004

About time! Now the Vulcan Apartheid Regime can go bye-bye (and put the Vulcans we know back on their lofty, esteemed plane). What it looks like is an awesome story writing maneuver compensating for Bermaga's flagrant ignorance of the franchise!

--------

"I'm astounded that your organization [the MSHSAA] tries to regulate what these kids do in their free time. Would you tell them they couldn't watch Star Trek or eat potato chips?"
-Missouri State Rep. Bryan Stevenson, R-Joplin

Reply
Quote

OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:01:20 on Sep 03, 2004

The "Ambassador Forrest" character can easily be a relative of Admiral Forrest. Then again, he could actually be Admiral Forrest. I hope they don't kill off his character. They need to kill of Ambassador Soval's character.

Then again, It may just as well be Admiral Forrest, why else would Enterprise be sent in to investigate?

And one other thing...

The Federation MUST NOT be founded this season or on this series. For a long time, it was a generalized assumption that the Federation was founded in 2161. Now, this date has been nailed in stone by last season's finale, "Zero Hour". Daniels specifically told Archer that the Federation won't be founded for another 7 years...which will put it at 2161 in the ENT time line.

The Federation may get its namesake from this incident, which will be kind of cool.

--------

Quote

RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator
By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:37:03 on Sep 03, 2004

Quote:
The Federation MUST NOT be founded this season or on this series. For a long time, it was a generalized assumption that the Federation was founded in 2161. Now, this date has been nailed in stone by last season's finale, "Zero Hour". Daniels specifically told Archer that the Federation won't be founded for another 7 years...which will put it at 2161 in the ENT time line.

Actually the year 2161 was established in "The Outcast" (TNG). "Zero Hour" just reconfirmed it.

As for seeing the founding of the Federation during the series. There's nothing to say that one season must spand one year of the Star Trek universe. As far as we know, each arc is months apart. They could even skip a couple of years next season like what they do in 24.

Quote:
The Federation may get its namesake from this incident, which will be kind of cool.

Maybe the name of Earth's government is the "United Earth Federation" or even the "United Federation of Earth".

--------

"Take a Romulan chill pill and have some faith!"
-Erik Jendresen, writer of Star Trek: The Beginning

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-General George S. Patton Jr.

"I am NOT Scorned."
-Scorned as Gage/Gage_2

Reply
Quote
- RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator
  By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:52:42 on Sep 03, 2004 | (1)
  
  I will have to rewatch "The OutCast". They specifically gave that date for the Founding of the Federation??
  
  And as far as I can Tell, TV Trek has always been a "year per season" show.
  
  I see no need for them to break away from that trend.
  
  They should have set the start of the series in 2156 or something...
  
  --------
  
  Reply
  Quote
  - RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator
    By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:33:23 on Sep 03, 2004
    
    Quote:
    I will have to rewatch "The OutCast". They specifically gave that date for the Founding of the Federation??
    
    Yes. There is a scene where Troi, Worf, and Crusher are playing poker. Troi says the next game will be called "Federation Day". Worf asks what's that. And Troi answers, "Well the Federation was founded in 2161, so 6's, 2's, and Aces are wild." Then Worf complains that's a woman's game.
    
    Quote:
    And as far as I can Tell, TV Trek has always been a "year per season" show.
    I see no need for them to break away from that trend.
    
    Well, there's no rule that they have to do a "year per season". If I recall correctly Alias skipped two years at the beginning of the third season. I doubt that the various arcs this season will be two weeks apart, I wouldn't be surprise if there's a month or even two months between the Eugenics Wars arc and the Vulcan Civil War Arc.
    
    --------
    
    "Take a Romulan chill pill and have some faith!"
    -Erik Jendresen, writer of Star Trek: The Beginning
    
    "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
    -General George S. Patton Jr.
    
    "I am NOT Scorned."
    -Scorned as Gage/Gage_2
    
    Reply
    Quote

RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator
By: Majin Psyduck (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 12:31:10 on Sep 03, 2004

You want them to kill of Ambassador Sykes? That's not nice...

--------

"Death and poverty like me so much, they brought friends!"
-Vash, Trigun

Reply
Quote

Questions... | Report this post to moderator
By: Avilos (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:45:31 on Sep 03, 2004 | (1)

"Federation embassy"...that surprises me. 'Ambassador Forrest' maybe there will be a jump foward in time. It seems very sudden for the Admiral to have become a Ambassador. It may not be him at all though. It could be a relative, maybe a brother. It would help explain why Archer is sent by Starfleet to be involved in Vulcan affairs. I have been wondering when this arc will air? It sounds like there maybe one stand alone after the Soong arc.

Quote

Question.. | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:27:02 on Sep 03, 2004

Any ideas from your source about who wrote this?

--------

"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

Quote

This sounds really good ... | Report this post to moderator
By: jstewart_2k3 (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 10:57:11 on Sep 03, 2004

I hope they don't kill off Admiral Forrest, though. I'm a big fan of Vaughn Armstrong's all too limited appearences.

Other than that, this arc sounds like it could be good and hopefully it'll show the beginnings of the Federation.

--------

"I was told this ship was the pride of Starfleet. I find it is small, and unimpressive."

"Funny, I was about to say the same thing about you."

Archer and Gral spar verbally in: "Babel One."

Quote

RE: This sounds really good ... | Report this post to moderator
By: BringBackKirk (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:51:29 on Sep 03, 2004

Sounds like nothing new on the Shatner front. But what worries me is Coto joking around about evil Kirk. Again, if they bring in Shatner, they NEED to bring back Kirk. That's what's missing. If Generations hadn't happened, evil Kirk might be cool, but Captain Kirk needs a happy ending. They will NOT ACHIEVE maximum ratings unless this is Kirk's return.

The ONLY way evil Kirk could work is if they incorporate Shatner's novels. That would at least give justice to the character and satisfaction to all the legions of fans who want Kirk to have a happy ending.

Tiberius is still alive in the Shatner books.

But even if they do that, they will add goodwill, but will not get maximum ratings. The demand is to see Shatner as KIRK, not as a character he played for 30 seconds.

If they do that, they will be greatly rewarded with ratings and dollars.

Reply
Quote
- RE: This sounds really good ... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Farceman (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:15:16 on Sep 04, 2004
  
  Evil Kirk is a crap idea,who wants to watch Shatner play an evil lunatic,that is also from a mirror universe.I want to see him play James T Kirk.
  Since Cotto didn't deny the tiberius theory it might be true.How can they advertise the return of James Kirk when its not James Kirk.Its not the Kirk from 79 eps and 6 movies its a mirror universe Kirk that was not even in trek for 5 minutes.
  Also in GRs trek the vulcans were at peace for several centuries,so this is another crap idea.
  
  Reply
  Quote

TrekWeb Merchants
Amazon.com
Amazon.co.uk
Amazon.ca
Amazon.de
Barnes & Noble

Your Name:
Your E-Mail:
Your Friend's Name:
Your Friend's E-Mail:
Subject:
Message (optional):

	More Top Stories	Comments
Nov 22	Exclusive Digital Content Now Available With New Star Trek Movie on iTunes	1
Nov 22	No J.J. Abrams Version of the U.S.S. Enterprise in the Star Trek Online MMORPG	0
Nov 21	Faran Tahir on His 10 Minutes as Captain Robau in J.J. Abrams Star Trek Movie	2
Nov 21	J.J. Abrams, Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman on Shatner and Nimoy	7
Nov 21	Roberto Orci on the Status of the Star Trek XII Script and the Possibility of Producing a New Star Trek TV Series	17
	Story Archives...Browse:

Sounds good to me | Report this post to moderator By: FutureGuy (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:42:26 on Sep 04, 2004

This is good and bad | Report this post to moderator By: Postdoc (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:08:01 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: This is good and bad | Report this post to moderator By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:18:20 on Sep 04, 2004

I think it's slightly in ENTERPRISE's future | Report this post to moderator By: luckybucky (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:08:28 on Sep 03, 2004

A Way Around the "Federation" Comment | Report this post to moderator By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:29:13 on Sep 03, 2004

The Forge | Report this post to moderator By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:18:19 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: The Forge | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:03:46 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: The Forge | Report this post to moderator By: tomba1701 (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:03:04 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: The Forge | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:32:24 on Sep 05, 2004

Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Kirk Archer (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:21:06 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Avilos (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:33:05 on Sep 03, 2004

Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:29:44 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:25:23 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator By: Kirk Archer (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:22:16 on Sep 03, 2004

That book is my bible, and I'm approaching my rapture! | Report this post to moderator By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:27:46 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator By: Jupiter (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:42:43 on Sep 03, 2004

Vulcan humor... | Report this post to moderator By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:06:53 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan humor... | Report this post to moderator By: Jupiter (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:53:52 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Merlinus Ambrosius (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:12:03 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:53:14 on Sep 03, 2004 | (2)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:37:47 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:09:34 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:48:45 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:06:05 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:11:51 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:55:22 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:44:30 on Sep 04, 2004 | (1)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:39:48 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:57:40 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:55:58 on Sep 04, 2004 | (2)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:39:34 on Sep 04, 2004 | (1)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Mr. Xindi (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:00:30 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:50:04 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Mr. Xindi (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:34:55 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:07:43 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:47:01 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:52:48 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:38:02 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:53:14 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:31:40 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:01:47 on Sep 06, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:30:32 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: lnformed (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:28:33 on Sep 06, 2004 | (1)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:14:33 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:38:40 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:59:02 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:53:06 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:50:32 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:09:41 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:22:46 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:48:32 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:04:14 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:07:17 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:09:20 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:39:18 on Sep 04, 2004 | (1)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:23:36 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:25:53 on Sep 05, 2004 | (1)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:19:00 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:33:12 on Sep 05, 2004

Sounds great! | Report this post to moderator By: El4short (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 12:52:50 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Sounds great! | Report this post to moderator By: PokeTrek (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 16:12:00 on Sep 03, 2004

OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:01:20 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:37:03 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:52:42 on Sep 03, 2004 | (1)

RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:33:23 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator By: Majin Psyduck (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 12:31:10 on Sep 03, 2004

Questions... | Report this post to moderator By: Avilos (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:45:31 on Sep 03, 2004 | (1)

Question.. | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:27:02 on Sep 03, 2004

This sounds really good ... | Report this post to moderator By: jstewart_2k3 (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 10:57:11 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: This sounds really good ... | Report this post to moderator By: BringBackKirk (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:51:29 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: This sounds really good ... | Report this post to moderator By: Farceman (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:15:16 on Sep 04, 2004

Sounds good to me | Report this post to moderator
By: FutureGuy (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:42:26 on Sep 04, 2004

This is good and bad | Report this post to moderator
By: Postdoc (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:08:01 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: This is good and bad | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:18:20 on Sep 04, 2004

I think it's slightly in ENTERPRISE's future | Report this post to moderator
By: luckybucky (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:08:28 on Sep 03, 2004

A Way Around the "Federation" Comment | Report this post to moderator
By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:29:13 on Sep 03, 2004

The Forge | Report this post to moderator
By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:18:19 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: The Forge | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:03:46 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: The Forge | Report this post to moderator
By: tomba1701 (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:03:04 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: The Forge | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:32:24 on Sep 05, 2004

Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Kirk Archer (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:21:06 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Avilos (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:33:05 on Sep 03, 2004

Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator
By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:29:44 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator
By: Reklaw (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:25:23 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator
By: Kirk Archer (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:22:16 on Sep 03, 2004

That book is my bible, and I'm approaching my rapture! | Report this post to moderator
By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:27:46 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Your assertion is incorrect, nice try though... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jupiter (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:42:43 on Sep 03, 2004

Vulcan humor... | Report this post to moderator
By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:06:53 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan humor... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jupiter (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:53:52 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Merlinus Ambrosius (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:12:03 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:53:14 on Sep 03, 2004 | (2)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:37:47 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:09:34 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:48:45 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:06:05 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:11:51 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:55:22 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:44:30 on Sep 04, 2004 | (1)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:39:48 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Deslok 2 (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:57:40 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:55:58 on Sep 04, 2004 | (2)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:39:34 on Sep 04, 2004 | (1)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Mr. Xindi (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:00:30 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:50:04 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Mr. Xindi (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:34:55 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:07:43 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:47:01 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:52:48 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:38:02 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:53:14 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:31:40 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:01:47 on Sep 06, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:30:32 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: lnformed (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:28:33 on Sep 06, 2004 | (1)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:14:33 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:38:40 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:59:02 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:53:06 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:50:32 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Darth Brooks (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:09:41 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:22:46 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:48:32 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:04:14 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:07:17 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:09:20 on Sep 04, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:39:18 on Sep 04, 2004 | (1)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:23:36 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:25:53 on Sep 05, 2004 | (1)

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:19:00 on Sep 05, 2004

RE: Vulcan Names and Canon | Report this post to moderator
By: Noraa (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:33:12 on Sep 05, 2004

Sounds great! | Report this post to moderator
By: El4short (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 12:52:50 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: Sounds great! | Report this post to moderator
By: PokeTrek (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 16:12:00 on Sep 03, 2004

OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:01:20 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator
By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:37:03 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator
By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:52:42 on Sep 03, 2004 | (1)

RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator
By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:33:23 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: OK, a couple of things... | Report this post to moderator
By: Majin Psyduck (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 12:31:10 on Sep 03, 2004

Questions... | Report this post to moderator
By: Avilos (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:45:31 on Sep 03, 2004 | (1)

Question.. | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:27:02 on Sep 03, 2004

This sounds really good ... | Report this post to moderator
By: jstewart_2k3 (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 10:57:11 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: This sounds really good ... | Report this post to moderator
By: BringBackKirk (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:51:29 on Sep 03, 2004

RE: This sounds really good ... | Report this post to moderator
By: Farceman (Odo's file, contact) @ 04:15:16 on Sep 04, 2004