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Nov 23 | Chuck returns to NBC with a special two-hour show on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010, before returning to its regular time slot, Mondays at 8pm on the following night. It's return to prime time television can be attributed to a successful fan renewnal campaign last year. CHUCK is a one-hour, action-comedy series that follows Chuck Bartowski (Zachary Levi, "Less Than Perfect") -- a computer geek who is catapulted into a new career as the government's most vital secret agent. This upcoming season will include some special guest stars, including Brandon Routh of "Superman Returns" who will play CIA agent Daniel Shaw in an episode, and the addition of SUBWAY restaurant as a major advertiser to the show. Chuck averaged a 4.0/6 rating last season, about eight percent better than the recently cancelled "Trauma". Ratings-challenged Heroes moves back an hour when Chuck returns on Monday nights. STAR TREK VOYAGER's Robert Duncan McNeill serves Chuck as a supervising producer and director.
Nov 17 | Originally hired as co-executive producer to help with the second half of the show's first season, Kevin Murphy has now taken the reins of Caprica, the Battlestar Galactica prequel on Syfy, according to The Hollywood Reporter. He now serves as an executive producer along with Ronald D. Moore, David Eick and Jane Espenson and oversees the day-to-day functions of the show.
Nov 12 | Star Trek star Zachary Quinto is loosely attached to star in the romantic dramedy Whirligig, reports Risky Business.Quinto would play the lead role in the independent Canadian film, which is aiming to shoot early next year. The movie centers on a man who, in a misguided attempt to woo an older woman, befriends the woman's adopted son.Chaz Thorne is directing the pic, based on a screenplay by Michael Amo, creator of the Canadian supernatural series "The Listener."
Nov 11 | The CNS Foundation, is hosting an on-line charity auction at www.charitybuzz.com. One of the items they are auctioning is a signed movie poster of the new Star Trek movie which has all the cast members and writers. The president of our organization is Carol Abrams, JJ's mother, and she arranged for the donation from Bad Robot Production Company. J.J. Abrams is also a major donor to their organization. The funds raised will go to help find a cure to neurological disorders in children. The auction link is here.
Nov 10 | Candice Bergen, Charles Lisanby, Don Pardo, Gene Roddenberry, Tom and Dick Smothers and Bob Stewart have been selected as the next inductees into the Television Academy's Hall of Fame. They will be honored at a Jan. 20 ceremony at the Beverly Hills Hotel. "This year's inductees have challenged and shaped popular culture, changed television for the better and entertained us royally while doing so," TV Academy Chairman-CEO John Shaffner said. More info at the Hollywood Reporter
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By Steve Krutzler / 03:48, 27 August 2004 / Reviews - Products
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Two captains, one destiny.
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An interesting review to say the least. I think it comes down to being somewhat "non-committal". 
Ie., a "compromising" review for a film filled with "compromises".
I think anyone who has seen me post comments on this movie knows from whence I come from with respect to it. There is some incredible music here and moreso, incredible effects, from the opening sequence with the bottle spinning in space, where as it comes closer to the audience, you can finally read the label to realize it was a bottle of "Dom Perrignon"... To the unbelieveable saucer crash sequence, something that I sat in a packed theater to see (one that had a sold-out crowd at a 1:30pm or thereabouts showing on the opening Friday in 1994). And as the audience braced itself for what was to come, all one could do was hold on as that massive saucer hit the ground in full Dolby Surround glory. And when it was all said and done, the audience literally sat there STUNNED in silence and awe. And it was good to know that the model for that was 12ft long because I figured it HAD to be big to get that kind of detail and massiveness displayed on camera.
And ever since, I had tried to recapture the power of that scene - first with the VHS (lol) and Dolby Prologic, and finally with an expensive upgrade to create a home theater including a brandy new laser disk player back then (a Denon) to be able to get the LD Dolby Digital AC3 version of GEN. At which point, with the addition of a powered subwoofer, pots and pans would rattle on their shelves in the kitchen, which shared a wall with the system. ;-)
The sad thing is that as I quickly discovered, the pan and scan VHS release had footage cut, not only from the actual saucer crash, but from other scenes that fully used the widescreen format (eg., some of the Lursa and B'Etor stuff).
But other than that in this film... Sigh. Kirk dead. Picard's Nexus sequence totally inconsistent with the character, Data sadly annoying, Borg knowledge now introduced back into Kirk's time (and if anyone believes that the El-Aurien refugess would keep their reasons for being refugees from the Borg "secret", is pandering to ENT syndrome), yadda yadda.
If anything, it will be interesting to see Moore and Braga's comments as I have seen some in written interviews recently. And I might even do a side-by-side check of the DVD vs the LD, but because my DVD now has a component video hook-up, I may not be able to put the LD in a PIP on the TV and play both simultaneously based on how my TV does the video options. I'll see.
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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Despite the dialog building up his backstory, his actions belied ANY sympathy on a viewer's part.
I personally wish that in Generations, they had made the audience feel sympathy towards Soran. I mean, one underlying idea in the film is coping with aging. Kirk wants action one last time, but at the same time wishes he hadn't gone back to Starfleet. Picard wants a family. What does Soran want? They could have tied the three characters together in how they wanted to stay young and have the perfect life, but then show us the evil that Soran would do to achieve that and contrast it with Kirk and Picard.....even with the Nexus plot holes, there was enough there that this film could have been a huge emotional experience....and it just fell flat on its face in my opinion.
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Scientists discover the world that exists;
engineers create the world that never was.
-Theodore von Kármán
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The movie has enough problems without making some up.
On the contrary, one can trace the introduction of the Borg (or knowledge about them) to Humanity, earlier and earlier and earlier as one progresses beyond GEN to FC, and then through VOY with 7 of 9's parents suddenly, out of nowhere, revealed as having been "studying" the Borg some 11 years before Picard and the 1701-D were hurled 7000 light years into the Delta Quadrant... through to ENT, where Borg appear in the 22nd century after having appeared in the 21st.
But going back to the original question: How is any of this the fault of Generations?
It was the opening shot in what would be a clear trend to create a totally revisionist Trek history. The attempt to re-make the Star Trek universe into something that was NOT "Roddenberry's". The death of TOS (Kirk) and the beginning of the systematic destruction of TNG (the 1701-D). Among other things.
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What, because the El-Aurians were in contact with humans in the 23rd century? According to "Time's Arrow" [TNG], we've been in contact since the 19th century!
But guess what? Except for dear Sam Clemmens, NO ONE in that era knew that Guinan was anything BUT "Human".
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(Admittedly, they weren't making their presence known quite that far back,
Exactly.
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but there's no reason to believe that we weren't in contact in the 23rd or even 22nd centuries. Yep, Enterprise can use El-Aurians if they want to!)
My problem is NOT with Humans being in contact with El-Aurians. It is the fact that the El-Aurians were there in GEN, why? Because they were refugees. And WHO made them "refugees"? Right, the Borg. If they had NOT been called "El-Aurian refugees", then maybe this could have slid by. But the fact that Soran's WHOLE existence and obsession was due to the Borg and thus even if the Nexus never existed, his state of mind regarding the loss of his family, was ALL "Borg" related. And the Nexus only made matters worse, enhancing his grief and determination to be with his family, thus prompting him to try to get back into it so that he could be at peace.
And the fact that they were on a Federation Transport ship - do you actually believe that diplomats and psychologists and others from the Federation didn't bother asking them questions about WHY they were "refugees"? And you don't think that they mentioned the fact that the "Borg" MADE them that way? Why would someone "hide" that fact, considering how horrible the Borg were to anyone who they came in contact with?
Thus by the time of the 24th century, there should have been some info on the "Borg" and Picard, et al wouldn't have had to stare blindly at a Cube not knowing what it was and then going through the 20 questions with Guinan regarding who the Borg were in TNG "Q Who?".
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In any case, if we're already accepting that Guinan never bothered to mention the Borg to Picard before "Q Who?",
NOT just Guinan. What about the REST of them? According to Scotty, when all was said and done, they managed to get something like 47 "out of 150" during that transport.
What about the 47 of them, which included Guinan AND Soran???? Are we THAT stupid as Humanity?
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despite the fact that they were obviously old friends (even excluding the events of "Time's Arrow"), maybe there's a reason why the El-Aurians were keeping quiet about it?
Why SHOULD they? The fact is that they were such a VISCIOUS group of beings who Guinan describes thusly in TNG "Q Who?":
"I was not personally involved... But from what I have been told they came through our system like a storm of Jaradan Aser beatles. And by the time they left, there wasn't much left of our society."
So why would they want to hide this so that others might suffer?
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Although I honestly have no idea what that reason might be... Maybe every time someone asked, they just said "I don't want to talk about it." They are better listeners than talkers... ;-)
That's bull.
And let me tell you... Personally, when GEN released, I didn't care. And that's because TNG "Q Who?" actually had dialog where Guinan mentioned that this had happened to her planet about a "century" before... Which would have been about 20 years before the time of GEN IF the "century" bit was literally meant to be "100 years". It seemed clear to me that calling them "refugees" seemed to suggest that whatever happened to them had happened more recently within the timeframe of the 23rd century, if not, then around the time of the end of Kirk's 5-year mission.
However, when you take that, and then look at the Borg suddenly going back in time in FC, and then you find that 7 of 9's parents - the Hansens had actually been "studying" the Borg... And now you have an ENT "Regeneration" with Borg reanimating out of nowhere on 22nd century Earth.... I mean come on.
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Again, the point is that the conundrum of the El-Aurians and the Borg existed before Generations. It had been implied before Generations that the El-Aurians had been keeping quiet about the Borg for some reason, and the movie just silently continued with that inference.
THAT is the same type of crap as ENT "Acquisition" where no one asks the name of the Ferengi. 
The problems in GEN with the usage of this ended up introducing MORE problems... If it had just been maybe Soran and Guinan as the only survivors, then perhaps both might have kept "quiet". However even then, Soran's WHOLE EXISTENCE was based on the MISERY he had because of the Borg, and the Nexus would supposedly soothe this... So of ALL people... He should have been the blabbiest of them all regarding that which destroyed what he supposedly loved, thus leading to his obsession to get back with them in the Nexus.
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Quote:It began a sad trend that effectively reduces the power and symbollism of a TNG "Q Who?".
The trend is very true and very much a shame, but please don't act like Generations is to blame for this.
It started that trend and it was continued because it was like the pioneer out there saying:
"Canon is irrevelent. Consistency is irrelevent. We will use contrived time travel to incorporate nonsense elements to make this universe our own."
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As you pointed out above First Contact and especially "Dark Frontier" [VOY] and "Regeneration" [ENT] hold the true culpability for this. (I would've swalloed "Dark Victory" a little easier if the father had mentioned "Rumours from the El-Aurians...")
GEN started it. And it's funny how people want to skip over the transgressions related to TNG and point fingers at VOY. ;-) Those transgressions started at TNG and VOY picked them up and ran with them.
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Quote:The character isn't even consistent within the El-Aurian archetype.
With characters as different as Guinan and Martus already in the mix, I don't know how you can seriously make a claim like this... Do you think he wasn't a good enough listener?
Did you notice the idiotic dialog crafted for him that sounds like a literal recitation OF the species archetype where he says to Geordi:
"As you may or may not be aware, I am an El-Aurian. Some people call us a race of "listeners". We listen."
I mean THIS IS LAME.
Guinan wasn't reciting that she was from a "race of listeners". She carefully tended bar and observed the conversations of those all around her. And if need be, she would step up and make a comment or suggestion to people or give someone some sage advice as a good little 3rd party commentator can do. But not Soran. He does the complete opposite. Aggressive, in your face. Until such time when the scene is ratcheted back in to at least suggest that he WAS supposed to be an "El-Aurian". In essence, he's just your run-of-the-mill "bad guy" and could have been of any species because there was little or nothing about him save for one little scene where he senses Guinan there in Ten Forward and slips away... Otherwise, he's generic.
And all the existence of Soran does is completely deflates everything that had been built up about Guinan and makes it all meaningless. Ie., the character is made to totally discredit himself and the species. NOT because he may have been an odd-ball, but because of the dialog given to him and his actions.
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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So the reason that Generations is at fault for the Borg first contact issue is because it shows a general disrespect for Gene Roddenberry by killing Kirk? That's quite a leap of logic you have going there...
No, GEN has a number of problems. It is a very complex film - essentially 2 films in one. And it does the following:
1.) Mischaracterization of Kirk.
...who becomes a comic book-like character that is cliche. Ie., the character is not only shown inconsistent but is essentially distilled down to functioning in terms of "memorable" phrases. Ie., he is given dialog in 2 different scenes in the Nexus where he says stuff like:
"I don't need to be lectured by you. I was out saving the galaxy when your grandfather was still in diapers. And frankly, I think the galaxy owes me one I was like you once... so worried about duty and obligations that I couldn't see anything past this uniform. And in the end, what did it get me? Nothing. Not this time."
The above SILLY and alot of nonsense. Picard and Kirk are around the same age and have a similar number of years of experience, irrespective of what eras they are coming from. Ie., they are peers. I believe for Kirk, born in 2233 and sucked into the Nexus in 2293, this made him 60 years old. Picard, born in 2305, with GEN taking place in 2371, would be 66.
Then you have more "Kirk cliche" where his dialog is reduced down to:
"Well, let me tell you something...don't. Don't let them promote you... Don't let them transfer you... Don't let anything take you off the Bridge of that ship because while you're there, you can make a difference."
This is a stereotypical, simple-minded characterization of Kirk. To have him disrespectful of another man in uniform, ignoring him while he cooks eggs. It's insulting.
2.) Micharacterization of Picard
...who is written to treat Kirk like a child. Again, this is nonsense because these 2 men are peers. As I have noted before in other threads (that you may not have seen), Braga has openly admitted to hating Star Trek when he was first hired and Moore, although claiming to be a "fan", ended up doing more damage to TOS characters (eg., how he portrayed Scotty in TNG "Relics") than anyone else. And Moore's footprint is ALL OVER the Nexus dialog between Kirk and Picard. It is his idiotic forte of insulting portrayals of the TOS characters as has beens.
And the drug-induced fantasy of a Picard is a Braga thing, having nothing to do with ANYTHING previously shown about Picard. After TNG "Family", which Moore WROTE, there was a storyline that indicated that Picard had a strong draw to possibly remaining on Earth to work with his long time friend under the sea with the Atlantis Project. The SAME Picard who has ALWAYS been shown maintaining dramatically SPARSE quarters, well-appointed and pristine, yet he is suddenly thrust into a "fantasy" involving a very busy, junk-filled Victorian English setting. It's nonsense.
3.) The El-Aurians
Soran was reduced down to spouting off dialog that merely told the audience - "you know, I'm El-Aurian. Really!". And fortunately, Guinan had already been fully developed by then and her role was easy.
4.) Destruction of 1701-D
The ship's destruction was meaningless, carried out by 2 somewhat popular characters - Lursa and B'Etor. Yet one need only compare to the destruction of the 1701 in TSFS, which underscored the attachment that not only the crew, but the audience had to the ship. To the point where at the end of TVH, cheers went up in the crowd when the 1701-A was revealed.
5.) The Borg
I think I have described earlier the nonsense of inserting a Borg theme back this far. Ie., by having El-Aurian contact in Kirk's era, where one of the characters had a motivation based on his run-in with the Borg.
6.) Captain John Harriman
I don't even know where to begin except that this thing about making characters idiots in order to have the main character appear "brilliant" is insulting. And of ALL people, a Captain of an Enterprise. You compare with a Christopher Pike, a Kirk, a Garrett, a Picard and then there's this guy.
7.) Data and Geordi
I have had alot of off and on issues with how Geordi has been written by Moore - eg., TNG "Relics" and here in GEN. And it has to do with crafting the character to essentially be oblivious to other characters and their problems. And in the case of GEN, Geordi and Data, supposedly "best friends", has Geordi essentially ignoring his "best friend" when he starts having serious mechanical problems with the emotion chip - all to draw out the drama of Data's actual malfunction. Which of course comes right at the time when he's needed the most - the revelation of Soran's plans.
And the whole execution of the emotion chip subplot was annoying. Although the "fear" part was somewhat better and relevent to the actual scene. Yet even that means that over 4 decades of experience that Data had being a Star Fleet Officer, was thrown out rather than show what should have been a standard response from him for such a situation. If anything, the "fear" response from the emotion chip would have worked better in FC when he was given skin and now experienced new sensations. However, the "fear" response was actually inserted into FC, afterwhich Data was ordered to "turn off" the emotion chip at that time.
And on and on...
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Quote:What, because the El-Aurians were in contact with humans in the 23rd century? According to "Time's Arrow" [TNG], we've been in contact since the 19th century!
But guess what? Except for dear Sam Clemmens, NO ONE in that era knew that Guinan was anything BUT "Human".
If you're going to take my comments out of context in order to create an argument, you should be less obvious about it...
On the contrary. My point is that your example doesn't hold water in that during the time when Guinan was on Earth in the 18th century, El-Auria was fine and dandy and had not been attacked by the Borg yet. That didn't happen until the 23rd century, at least according to her in TNG "Q Who?".
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Quote:(Admittedly, they weren't making their presence known quite that far back,
...by not quoting the context in your next paragraph.
Quote:Exactly.
I thought you might agree!
Yes - see when I do my arguments, I quote each section down the line.
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Quote:My problem is NOT with Humans being in contact with El-Aurians.
Really? Then why did you say...
BORG. The timing of THIS particular "contact" and under what circumstances it was done. ;-)
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Quote:It is the fact that the El-Aurians were there in GEN, why? Because they were refugees. And WHO made them "refugees"? Right, the Borg.
Check your timelines. They had been refugees of the Borg for three decades at that point (according to the semi-canonical Star Trek Chronology, which explains some otherwise difficult travel-time issues).
I know the timelines. But does Braga and Moore? One of the crew on the 1701-B says:
"The Lakul is one of two ships transporting El-Aurian refugees to Earth. "
???
Refugees??? After some 28 years if you assume Guinan's mention of "century" equalled 100 years prior?
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It's not implausible that most of the 'listeners' weren't busy chatting in detail on the record about the cybernetic organisms that killed their people a couple of decades ago...
Really? They were NOT Federation citizens. Now they are being "transported" to Earth per the above. You think that Earth allows anyone to randomly come and travel (perhaps to get to Federaton HQ) or live there without getting background information on them? The fact that someone in the Federation provided not one, but two "transport" ships to ferry 150 of them to Earth is not insignificant. And all that time when they were being ferried by the Federation to Earth before they ran into the Nexus, you think that none of them were interviewed for name, place of birth, spouses, children, occupation, medical status, reasons for request of refugee status, yadda yadda?
Don't fall into the Braga-Moore trap.
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In any case, refugees or not, the timeline is exactly the same, leaving the last two quotes I referenced at odds with each other.
The PROBLEM is having 150 "refugees", where one is insane because of what the Borg did to his family and then goes over the edge once he is reunited with them in the Nexus and is then "ripped away". I mean, when you give this character dialog like:
"There was a time when I wouldn't hurt a fly. Then the Borg came."
I mean come on.
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Quote:But the fact that Soran's WHOLE existence and obsession was due to the Borg and thus even if the Nexus never existed, his state of mind regarding the loss of his family, was ALL "Borg" related.
Wow, and you're simultaneously arguing to Steve that Generations doesn't deal with mortality issues?
No - and WHERE does Soran do that? His dialog has little or nothing to do with his family. If you look at the script, there is some dialog there that was much of it cut from the film. But even then, it's minimal, essentially a few lines between Picard and Soran about Soran's wife and children. Yet we have no look into what Soran's fantasy was in the Nexus. So what he says and what he does is in conflict.
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Quote:Thus by the time of the 24th century, there should have been some info on the "Borg" and Picard, et al wouldn't have had to stare blindly at a Cube not knowing what it was and then going through the 20 questions with Guinan regarding who the Borg were in TNG "Q Who?".
Considering his relationship with Guinan, this is true with or without Generations.
On the contrary - after TNG "Q Who?" when a supposed previous "relationship" between Picard and Guinan had been hinted at, a pair of episodes and its revelation in TNG "Time's Arrow I & II", was crafted mainly for the fans (or so the fan media indicated back then). But again, back in the 1800s, El-Auria hadn't been attacked by the Borg yet.
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In any case, if we're already accepting that Guinan never bothered to mention the Borg to Picard before "Q Who?",
NOT just Guinan. What about the REST of them?
Good! You agree!
Yes - yet you are arguing against my argument that the Federation itself should have KNOWN about the Borg as far back as the 23rd century. You know, Kirk's time.
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So you agree, then? The issue existed long before Generations, and a ship that may have been full of 'non-involved' refugees like Guinan doesn't make much of a difference one way or the other?
???? You are USING GEN to claim that events that supposedly occured before GEN, but were only introduced to the audience, BY GEN, are not the fault of GEN?
If that is what you are arguing, it's nonsense.
What I am arguing is that GEN suddenly introduces a conflicting backstory that essentially makes the earlier series characters look like idiots. This is no different from ENT "Regeneration" where Earth of the 22nd century now has knowledge of the Borg, thus Picard, et al, should have known about them.
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Geez... Even when you agree, you disagree! ;-)
I'm not seeing your arguments in that light - at least not the way you phrased them.
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Quote:And let me tell you... Personally, when GEN released, I didn't care.
Then why is it GEN's fault now? You're contradicting yourself.
No, I'm afraid not. I am generally willing to hand-wave over single transgressions. But if you look at what came after GEN, the pattern is clear. And GEN ends up being the template for HOW one can disrespect canon by introducing elements previously considered "unknown" in later times, to characters in earlier times, thus negating the reactions of those characters in the later era.
And thus I cannot accept it.
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Quote:However, when you take that, and then look at the Borg suddenly going back in time in FC, and then you find that 7 of 9's parents - the Hansens had actually been "studying" the Borg... And now you have an ENT "Regeneration" with Borg reanimating out of nowhere on 22nd century Earth.... I mean come on.
So is this really because Generations actually did something wrong, or are you just ticked off in retrospect?
GEN DID do it "wrong". And it invalidates TNG "Q Who?", which was a powerful episode about "pride", with Q teaching Picard a "lesson".
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If the latter's the case, I don't really see why Generations deserves the blame much more than, say, "Q Who?", where it was established that "old friend" Guinan had known about the Borg for a hundred years in the first place...
But what you fail to realize is that nearly all of TNG was "standalone". IMHO, TNG "Q Who?" was to be a single instance of an intractable enemy and then The End. However TNG decided to continue on with the Borg theme ad infinitum, and GEN, which is mostly a TNG film, continues this trend. However in GEN, the Borg are now introduced back into the 23rd century awareness, something that was NEVER intended by TNG "Q Who?". That ep never established WHEN the El-Aurians had contacted Earth. And at least TNG "Time's Arrow I & II" had Guinan's contact happen before her planet was destroyed. However GEN puts El-Aurian contact "as refugees from the Borg", RIGHT SMACK in the midst of characters we know - but back in the 23rd century, BEFORE TNG "Q Who?". They could have kept the bulk of them on the periphery of the Federation until the 24th century, after the timeframe of TNG "Q Who?".
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Quote:Soran's WHOLE EXISTENCE was based on the MISERY he had because of the Borg, and the Nexus would supposedly soothe this... So of ALL people... He should have been the blabbiest of them all regarding that which destroyed what he supposedly loved, thus leading to his obsession to get back with them in the Nexus.
I've never heard of a blabby listener. He seemed more interested in getting info about the Nexus than in discussing his personal life.
THAT is what I'm talking about. Everything he was shown doing WAS "blabby". So to be consistent with his supposed contrived personality, he should have ALSO blabbed about the Borg before. But then his doing so would NOT be like an "El-Aurian". And THAT is why I'm complaining because almost EVERYTHING he did was like a generic bad guy. NOT an El-Aurian, except because dialog claims he is.
See what I'm saying? He's inconsistent, not only as a generic individual, but when following a species archetype. And certainly Roddenberry DID have a species archetype put together for El-Aurians with the introduction of Guinan. EVERY show (particularly science fiction with various aliens) has archetypes, otherwise you run into problems determining what makes one alien different from another.
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Quote:It started that trend and it was continued because it was like the pioneer out there saying:
"Canon is irrevelent. Consistency is irrelevent. We will use contrived time travel to incorporate nonsense elements to make this universe our own."
An interesting point, but as you said earlier:
Quote:That's bull.
No, it's quite obvious. ;-)
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A dubious continuity error started this off? Then maybe it was started earlier by DS9 rewriting the Trills, or TNG giving the Klingons an honor-based warrior culture, or by making the Romulans treacherous instead of honor-bound, or by Spock not smiling any more after "The Cage"... How can you claim that Generations, of all things, was the critical point of all of this?
Wow. I am only critiquing GEN. I have critiqued the REST of the Trek series on their OWN merits, and SIMILAR issues. But you seek to go beyond the context of what I am saying about what GEN does. THAT in fact expands the scope of this.
The fact is that what GEN does has longer term consequences on TNG itself because of one thing. Marketing of the Borg. And in fact, with the opening of the Las Vegas "Borg Experience" or whatever the hell it's called, starting with GEN, this group of marketable beings has been inserted earlier and earlier and earlier into the canon of Trek.
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It respected continuity so much that it had Lursa and B'Etor's bird-of-prey blow up EXACTLY like Chang's ship! ;-)
(That means I'm kidding about the last part.)
Well now you are arguing the re-use of special effects. ;-)
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Quote:And it's funny how people want to skip over the transgressions related to TNG and point fingers at VOY. ;-) Those transgressions started at TNG and VOY picked them up and ran with them.
If I'm blaming First Contact as the first offender, how is this relevant?
My above comment is more expostionary for other readers of this sub-thread. It only gives an example of more post-GEN transgressions - but specifically TNG-related.
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In any case, the Voyager flaw was far more blatant than any of the previous ones, even if it is potentially explainable. At worst, Generations might qualify as an 'oversight', a nit to be picked.
No - GEN placing Borg knowledge by the Federation back into the 23rd century opens up the "permission" to continue to do so throughout the TNG films and finally into VOY, where it wasn't until the 3rd season of the show where Borg appear - and even then, it is because the show's premise DID hurl them into the Delta Quadrant. Since DS9 was already taking place partially in the Gamma Quadrant and the Federation had their dealings in the Alpha Quadrant, with occassional forays into the Beta Quadrant where the Romulans and Klingons had territory, then all that was left to cover in "more detail" WAS the Delta Quadrant. And TNG established that the Borg were IN the Delta Quadrant per TNG "Q Who?".
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Quote:Did you notice the idiotic dialog crafted for him that sounds like a literal recitation OF the species archetype where he says to Geordi:
"As you may or may not be aware, I am an El-Aurian. Some people call us a race of "listeners". We listen."
I mean THIS IS LAME.
But the point you are arguing is...
Quote:The character isn't even consistent within the El-Aurian archetype.
Is it inconsistent, or is it just lame? There's a big difference.
See my earlier argument where the character is made to act NOT like an El-Aurian (very aggressive and talkative), yet because that is inconsistent with the El-Aurian archetype, then he is given dialog to tell Geordi and we the audience that he IS an "El-Aurian" because "El-Aurians" are supposed to be a "race of listeners". So now he's going to sit down and supposedly shut up and "listen".
????
I know there was a torture scene that was eliminated from the film. I can imagine what that was like.
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Quote:He does the complete opposite. Aggressive, in your face. Until such time when the scene is ratcheted back in to at least suggest that he WAS supposed to be an "El-Aurian".
So when he's aggressive, it's inconsistent, but when he listens, it's lame? What exactly were you hoping for?
You missed it. Merely stating what someone is or does is LAME. SHOWING US by ACTIONS is what I'm talking about and I gave you the example of how Guinan was shown behaving to underscore WHY El-Aurians were called "a race of listeners".
Having a character state an archetypical definition for themself is First Grade writing. Showing why someone is considered that, by crafting scenes with the character appearing to stay on the periphery of groups or in the position to be an advisor, is what GOOD writers would do to indicate the SAME thing.
The fact that Soran did no 'listening" except during a torture session that apparently yielded him nothing, is not consistent with the archetype. If he had "listened" to Picard's arguments on Veridian III and perhaps even decided to change his mind at the last minute (meaning he was willing to hear Picard out) - but then got caught in a quandry because he might have already gone too far and couldn't stop the process once started - then THAT might have brought him closer to his archetype. He would have symbollically been a redeemable character.
An example of the above is the "Grinch" in the famous cartoon "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas". His heart "two sizes too small" and his bitterness towards the people of Whoville... is suddenly "converted" because of a little who - Cindy Lou Who. And suddenly he "sees the light". But then his sled is so packed full of all the Whoville stuff that it begins to tip off the top of the mountain and his little mutt can't hold it - ie., it's too late and he tries with all his might to keep the sled from sliding down the mountain and crashing into town... But of course there is the deux ex machina where his "heart" is now filled with love and he gets the strength of "10 Grinches" or whatever and saves the day and is redeemed.
I mean, this sort of theme has been out there for a LONG time and could have worked in GEN for Soran. Ie., Soran is "reformed". THAT would be a more Roddenberry way of concluding the saga of Soran. Even if he still died, he has been redeemed and a trait of Humanity - "forgiveness" (or any other similar trait), would have come to the fore and been embraced by him. Just like Alex DeLarge in "A Clockwork Orange", who is reformed in the end - although initially because of an experiment that forces him to become violently ill when he tries to be violent. And that left him vunerable to the wrath of his former victims with no way to protect himself... etc. Yet he is finally "cured" of both plot device extremes, and is supposedly brought back into society.
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Look at Martus Mazur: He's the perfect listener when he chooses to be, but is boisterous just as often. Soran perfectly fits the El-Aurian archetype that was set out by Martus.
Yet I have also complained about much of what happened in DS9 "Rivals" with this character. Although the ep was more to be humorous than dramatic and not really focussed on that character but on the events set into motion due to the device that he had obtained and the reactions by the station personnel. And Soran does no such "fitting" any archetype except the one instance I mention when Soran and Guinan supposedly sense each other and Soran darts away.
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Are you mad because he doesn't act like an El-Aurian, or are you mad because he doesn't act like Guinan?
Guinan was in fact the archetypical definition of the species, given not only her own behavior, but her stories regarding her family and what they did and even Q's comments.
I'm not saying that all El-Aurians are Guinan. I'm saying that rather than have characters spout off what they are supposed to be like, they ACT LIKE they are supposed to be like. ;-) There's a difference. And that difference separates elementary school character writing from college-level and above character writing.
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Quote:And all the existence of Soran does is completely deflates everything that had been built up about Guinan and makes it all meaningless.
Well, that answers that...
Again - see my above. Simply stating that one is supposed to be from a "race of listeners" and showing us, is like night and day. ;-)
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Quote:Ie., the character is made to totally discredit himself and the species.
Really? Boy, that was a really bad idea on the writers' part... They should have planned on doing something else, like not discrediting Soran and the El-Aurians.
You should take a look at the interview that Nimoy did for one of the Brazillian Trek clubs that Steve posted here, where the interview portion regarding GEN goes as follows:
"TB: You were invited to be the director of STAR TREK GENERATIONS but ultimately declined, because you were informed there wouldn't be time to fix the problems you saw in the script. What were those problems?
Nimoy: Ahhn, it's been a long time, I'm trying to remember. (pause) I just felt that the story did not really successfully come to grips with any major concern that interested me. It felt as a mechanical construction of a conflict with an individual, a particular individual whom I didn't care much about him, didn't really represent a meaningful force to me. I just didn't care about it. It wasn't something that touched me, or something that I felt was accessible for me.
TB: Had you been the director of GENERATIONS would Kirk had died?
Nimoy: Oh, another hypothetical question! (Laughs)
TB: Oh, yeah, I like hypothetical questions, you know...
Nimoy: (laughs) I don't know. I can say that I do remember that I thought that it was a rather unglorious death, frankly. It was a battle in the desert with some nasty guy, whom I didn't care much about, and there was not much at stake, except his life, which of course is important, but... when Spock died in STAR TREK II, he died saving the ship and the crew. In the case of Kirk fighting this unimportant character and dying, I thought it was rather unfortunate. I tell you this, hypothetically, if I had been the director, I would have tried very hard to make his death more meaningful, someway.
TB: think the major criticism concerning Kirk's death it was that it was meaningless.
Nimoy: Yeah. "
And he certainly says it best.
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Do you think this may be a backlash to the fact that you like the movie so much and feel guilty about it?
I have indicated what I "liked" about GEN - the effects. ;-)
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Quote:My problem is... I... loved GEN... And it's... LAME.
Please take that in the humorous spirit in which it was intended. :-)
No - you manufacture something that isn't my opinion about it. Oh well. Hopefully the above will clarify the difference. ;-)
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But to sum up your actual argument about Soran...
So, the character doesn't act like an El-Aurian except when he does because the writers were out to defile the grave of Gene Roddenberry and everything he stands for by killing Kirk, destroying the Enterprise, messing up the El-Aurians, and placing the cornerstone for the eventual destruction of the entire continuity of Star Trek by having Kirk tell Guinan she doesn't have to live like a refugee?
Quote:Exactly.
Oh.
Okay, then.
It's a shame that you miss the whole point. But I think the above should help. ;-)
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So, how 'bout them Klingons?
I am a Vulcan fan. I don't care about Klingons.
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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Some interesting points. However, none of them have anything to do with what we're talking about (#5 excepted). And rather than making a counterpoint there, you're simply repeating yourself. You're only proving Steve's earlier comment:
Quote:The movie has enough problems without making some up.
Interestingly enough, you decided to reply for Steve, and so I chose to expound on where I'm coming from, considering that the question by you was originally:
So the reason that Generations is at fault for the Borg first contact issue is because it shows a general disrespect for Gene Roddenberry by killing Kirk? That's quite a leap of logic you have going there...
And what I wrote was in response to THAT, considering what you wrote above takes a number of things that I commented on, and jumbles them altogether completely out of context. So I was trying to clarify.
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You sometimes make me wonder if you hit "quote" before you read the full comments... If you had finished reading the sentence you were responding to, I had already addressed that point.
And you sometimes make me wonder if you hit "quote" before you read and understood what I wrote because your inclusion of Guinan's appearance back in history was totally irrelevent to the subject. Yet since you mentioned it, I addressed it. If you don't want a comment to what you write, it's real simple... don't write it.
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I wasn't saying that they were in open communication in the 19th (not 18th) century -- I was saying it was unlikely that they waited a full 500 years before coming in contact again.
It doesn't matter. It is specious and has no bearing to GEN back-inserting events that end up conflicting with known events in the "current" or "future".
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Quote:Yes - see when I do my arguments, I quote each section down the line.
Perhaps, but you fragmented my sentences to make it look like I had ignored the facts, then you made a point that I had made below and made it sound like you were contradicting me.
How can that happen when I answer you sequentially. If what you wrote doesn't make sense when written in sequence, then that's not my fault but yours. I'm not skipping around here.
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Quote:I know the timelines. But does Braga and Moore? One of the crew on the 1701-B says:
Braga, maybe not, but Moore has been critical in maintaining and expanding the Star Trek canon since early in TNG, and I take offense at your treating him as if he has no respect for canon. This is the guy who wrote "Relics" for crying out loud!
And as I wrote above that you seemed to miss because you didn't read it, I took offense at TNG "Relics" and I explictly mentioned it earlier in this thread. He took a respected character and made him into a has-been, "under foot", and other nonsense.
You may have liked that episode but it was a disgrace, IMHO.
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Quote:Refugees??? After some 28 years if you assume Guinan's mention of "century" equalled 100 years prior?
Why not? They lost a planet, and they didn't have another home. I think that they should be considered refugees. The Trabe were still called refugees around 30 years after their overthrow by the Kazon in "Alliances" [VOY].
Yet you assume that no one in the Federation asked them why? It is contrived.
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Quote:You think that none of them were interviewed for name, place of birth, spouses, children, occupation, medical status, reasons for request of refugee status, yadda yadda?
Boy, the Federation has just as much red tape as the U.S. does...
LOL I'm sure. ;-)
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Quote:Don't fall into the Braga-Moore trap.
Again, I take offense at your implication that Ronald D. Moore doesn't care about continuity.
He doesn't. Witness DS9 "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" and his cavalier treatment (read: Lazy) of the timeframe of the Eugenics Wars, something that prompted a recent thread here after Coto mentioned details on the upcoming Spiner episodes. Also note the screw-up where GEN actually conflicts with his earlier TNG "Relics" - ie., that was a well-talked about one - particularly since a decision was made (however they did the casting, which also had issues with who they could bring on I understand) to bring in Doohan to guest star in GEN. When it comes to anything to do with TOS, his "continuity" falters.
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Quote:The PROBLEM is having 150 "refugees"
As you mentioned earlier, 2/3 of that number died, and thus were even less talkative than usual.
Really? They seemed to be "talkative" to me when they were first beamed on board the 1701-B.
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Quote:Yet we have no look into what Soran's fantasy was in the Nexus.
Why should we? Do you think it would have been interesting to watch?
You bet. I just gave you reasons why. This character cannot become a true literal (from the literature standpoint) sympathetic character unless his inner thoughts are revealed to the audience. That's standard stuff. Whatever plot device they use to do it... And the Nexus was as good as any. Mind melds are plot devices used for such, personal logs, letters to friends or home... something... If only for completeness.
Down further, you mention Khan and Chang. And in both of these cases, you have Khan already having a backstory with Kirk which establishes his motives and thoughts and reasons. In TOS "Space Seed", he was involved in a 3-way debate with Kirk and Spock and figured out that they were trying to pump him for information after awhile. So his character-as-nemesis was establshed.
Even if you go back to Kruge in TSFS, he was closer to Soran as a 1-dimensional bad guy, except that he actually becomes the instrument of an action that has a powerful effect on Kirk - the death of Kirk's son and the destruction of Kirk's ship. So he becomes more like a catalyst to a series of major events that will ultimately impact Kirk for another 3 films.
With Chang, he has been shown to have taken a liking to Shakespeare and he uses it to establish his frame of mind. Just the use of Shakespeare as Chang's plot device, takes Chang one step beyond the carboard bad guy that Soran is.
And with the deleted scene of Kirk being shot by Soran, it would have been closer to how a Kruge was shown. However that was ultimately rejected and a different ending was devised making Kirk's death meaningless - done by a meaningless character.
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Quote:So what he says and what he does is in conflict.
How so? You didn't establish any conflict.
The conflict in terms of his actions and behavior versus what he says. And the whole scene down on Veridian III between him and Picard is a perfect example. He "listens" to nothing.
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Picard refers to them as old friends long before he found out about the events of "Time's Arrow".
Correct. And over the years with all the fan speculation - particularly on the net, by the 5th/6th season we get - surprise, surprise. TNG "Time's Arrow I & II". And that pair of episodes was much-discussed on USENET and the reason for it. And in fact, the episode even includes this dialog:
Guinian: "You're still here..."
Picard: "You were hurt. I had to make sure you were all right."
Guinan: "You stayed here... for that... ?"
Picard: "I can't very well let anything happen to you. You're far too important to me."
Guinan: "You know so much about me..."
Picard: "Believe me, in the future the tables will be turned."
Guinan: "We... become friends..."
Picard: "It goes beyond friendship."
Guinan: "But... I have to wait almost five hundred years... And when we meet, I won't be able to tell you about this, will I?"
Picard: "No. Because for me, it won't have happened yet."
And so THIS supposedly "established" HOW and WHY they "knew" each other "BEFORE" (in quotes), ie., they "met" back in the 1800s when she didn't know him, via a time travel plot device. I know alot of folks thought that using THAT as THE reason, was contrived at the time. But it stands as the canon.
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Are you positing that they had really only known each other since Guinan came on the Enterprise-D? Otherwise, your comment above is largely irrelevant.
No - I'm saying that many fans were curious about when it was and under what circumstances that they first met and TNG "Time's Arrow I & II" was supposedly written to address that big question.
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Quote:Yes - yet you are arguing against my argument that the Federation itself should have KNOWN about the Borg as far back as the 23rd century. You know, Kirk's time.
I'm arguing that the problem existed whether it was as far back as the 23rd century or just since Guinan met Picard.
But your argument is specious because this wasn't a "problem" until GEN made it one. THAT is what I'm saying.
Before GEN, we knew the Borg had attacked El-Auria per TNG "Q Who?" and we even knew when that had happened. But there was no establishing that El-Aurians had actually made contact with the Federation, let alone revealing themselves as El-Aurians, let alone as "refugees" in the 23rd century.
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Either there's always been a problem and there's no explanation, or there's always been a problem and there's a somewhat flimsy explanation. Don't pretend the problem wasn't around before Generations -- Generations just made it more obvious.
It wasn't a "problem" until GEN made it one. It decided to use the Soran character and the Guinan character to be the "link" between 2 eras, and this could be done because part of the species archetype included the fact that El-Aurians were "long-lived". However, the contrivance was to have a Soran and a Guinan, magically be "found" by a ship that Kirk was on.
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Quote:???? You are USING GEN to claim that events that supposedly occured before GEN, but were only introduced to the audience, BY GEN, are not the fault of GEN?
If that is what you are arguing, it's nonsense.
You're right, that is nonsense. Good thing it's not what I'm arguing. As mentioned above, the problem was introduced by Guinan and, to a lesser extent, characters like Martus that made the El-Aurians appear more commonplace around the Federation. This was all before Generations was ever made.
But that doesn't negate the fact that GEN shows El-Aurians making contact with the Federation in the 23rd century and they are considered "refugees". And the cause of their "refugee status" WAS the Borg. Yet none of them spilled the beans about WHY they were "refugees".
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Quote:I'm not seeing your arguments in that light - at least not the way you phrased them.
That was intended as a joke.
Okay.
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Quote:I am generally willing to hand-wave over single transgressions. But if you look at what came after GEN, the pattern is clear.
Then you're making the argument that you object to above. To rephrase it to fit your argument:
Slightly altered Quote:
Slightly altered? LOL
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???? You are USING FIRST CONTACT, VOYAGER, AND ENTERPRISE to claim that events that supposedly occured before GEN, but were only introduced to the audience, AFTER GEN, are the fault of GEN?
If that is what you are arguing, it's nonsense.
And it is.
No - I am actually pointing out that THIS is what GEN started as a trend-setter for specific writers to start DOING. And THAT is what I object to.
It's called, inserting past major historical events, after the fact, that since they are done sloppily, should have impacted on that which would occur in the future. And the insertion of such inturn, negate the events of the future as shown in earlier episodes.
And this is different than fleshing out past events because in this case, these MAJOR EVENTS (El-Aurian "refugees" who had fled the Borg) are introduced to the past, and their Borg knowledge should have been passed onto the people of that earlier period, which would have inturn, impacted the future. And that's why when someone does a "prequel", they must be very careful not to create major events that might cause a conflict with something that had been fleshed out in previous stories that were set in a future time.
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Quote:And GEN ends up being the template for HOW one can disrespect canon by introducing elements previously considered "unknown" in later times, to characters in earlier times, thus negating the reactions of those characters in the later era.
This would be a strong point if it were true.
And I have been posting why it is true. Because to argue otherwise, would be to dumb down the plot AND the Federation characters AND the species itself. It is as bad as the introduction of the Ferengi in ENT "Acquisition" where the crew interacts with them after they had taken over the ship, yet no one gets their "name". And if they had, then it would conflict with TNG "The Last Outpost", when Data searched everything in every database he had access to and found little or nothing about them and Picard's own log stated that it would be the "first" contact with them... although they had heard "rumors" etc. Yet now, the ENT crew not only made contact with them but didn't bother asking who they were, but they ran into a different species in ENT "Dear Doctor", who named them off. Yet the dumbed down crew didn't bother getting ANY information from that guy on ANY of the species he ticked off, including the Ferengi, despite the fact that they were supposed to be "explorers".
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Unfortunately, the issue occurs no matter when the El-Aurians first initially encounter the Federation. Generations only decided when the issue happened -- it didn't create it.
The "when" IS the conflict with what was already established. And this contrivance dumbs down the story.
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Quote:But what you fail to realize is that nearly all of TNG was "standalone".
That's patently ridiculous. "Q Who?" was a sequel to "The Neutral Zone" and "Hide and Q". How was it "standalone" in the literal sense in which you are using it?
And you didn't read what I said. "Nearly". I am aware that the Borg are hinted at in TNG "The Neutral Zone" due to the colonies along the border that were destroyed, thus prompting the first contact between the Feds and Romulans since the "Tomed Incident".
Let me clarify specifically for TNG "Q Who?" If you look at how the Borg were portrayed, the only way they could get out of it was thanks to the deux ex machina move by Q. Yet a decision was made to continue with this theme and the Borg are then dumbed down and weakened from that defined by Hurley.
And GEN takes what happened - where the Feds have their FIRST contact with the Borg, thanks to Q and where they knew NOTHING about them, and then "turns things on their ear" and introduces a number of people who DID know about them because the Borg made them "refugees". Yet none of this is passed on to the Feds of the past where these people who know about the Borg, suddenly "appear".
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Quote:IMHO, TNG "Q Who?" was to be a single instance of an intractable enemy and then The End.
To be blunt, your HO is wrong in this case, according to The Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion by Larry Nemecek.
However, this did NOT include putting El-Aurians into Federation hands back in the 23rd century, where those El-Aurians had been exposed to the Borg and were termed "refugees". Thus negating the very TNG episodes that occur in the later time. If GEN had introduced El-Aurians, NOT as "refugees" but as "travellers" or "colonists" or some other such term, then it would have softened this. But the focus of Soran WAS his grief after the Borg made them refugees, where the Nexus was his drug to soften the blow.
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Quote: However TNG decided to continue on with the Borg theme ad infinitum, and, continues this trend.
Just as they had planned to.
But NOT to take then back in time with respect to Federation knowledge of them.
The Borg did what they did to the El-Aurians in the 23rd century. But THIS fact could have been kept OUT of the 23rd century Federation. Ie., the suggestion was that since the Borg operated out of the Delta Quadrant, then El-Auria was probably located there. And they could have kept the bulk of them there along the border and perhaps just transported 1 or 2 for story-telling purposes. THEN you might justify no one saying anything.
But to have 150? And even 47 survivors? And none say why?
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Quote:That ep never established WHEN the El-Aurians had contacted Earth.
You're right. But they had done so at some point before "Q Who?", so the when isn't particularly relevant.
But that STILL isn't established during the entirety of TNG. We only know the El-Aurians had established themselves AS that species with Guinan's appearance on the ship - especially if you believe that the events of TNG "Time's Arrow I & II" is in fact "true", with respect to HOW and WHY Guinan and Picard knew each other "before" (the time travel).
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Quote:They could have kept the bulk of them on the periphery of the Federation until the 24th century, after the timeframe of TNG "Q Who?".
They could have. It's more likely they didn't based on Guinan's relationship with Picard, but your assumption isn't impossible (pre-Generations).
It would have made this issue more plausible with respect to "no one" telling the 23rd century Feds about the Borg back then.
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If you want to make assumptions to explain stuff, that's fine by me, but please don't criticze the writers if they contradict your assumptions later on. In any case, the Guinan problem still remains.
No - I only point out the continuity issue with GEN and Guinan is NOT the "problem". The contrivance that GEN did with her and Soran and the rest of the El-Aurians, is.
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Quote:THAT is what I'm talking about. Everything he was shown doing WAS "blabby".
He started to get that way on the planet, but that was primarily in response to Picard's prodding.
Irrelevent. He was poorly written and even Nimoy notes that. A few tweeks could have salvaged this character.
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Quote:EVERY show (particularly science fiction with various aliens) has archetypes, otherwise you run into problems determining what makes one alien different from another.
And every archetype has variations, otherwise the characters become boring.
Of course. But I'm afraid if the character can't even stick with the "basics", then like T'Pol, he is an outlyer and can then be considered contrived to fit the plot rather than be used in a specific commentator role as all Trek aliens are used for.
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Soran had to be El-Aurian (or something similar) for the story to work, because:
1. He had to be on the ship in the past with Guinan.
2. He had to live another hundred years without getting too old.
Correct.
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In order to fit the El-Aurian archetype, he had to:
1. Be a listener.
But he also needed to be shown with more of whatever "telepathic" sense it is that they have. And he was briefly shown to have it but then that was dropped and forgotten.
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He was a listener, both in the obvious ways you mention and in more subtle ways.
What "subtle" ways? There was little or nothing "subtle" about the character.
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Check off point #1 on the archetype list and move on to all the other points. What were they again?
Sorry, you're missing some points. Which is why the character became this guy (hint, NOT "Dudley Dooright! LOL):
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Really. Then how did they accomplish this without traveling back in time (more than a couple of hours). I don't think traveling forward in time really accomplishes what you're mentioning here. "Use contrived time travel", indeed...
My argument is not with the time travel in this instance. It is the story that they contrived during that time travel, that causes a conflict with what was known in the future. By calling these El-Aurians "refugees", this then introduces a question as to "why". And if all those folks who they showed supposedly don't say "why", then the plot is dumbed down in order to not violate the canon of TNG "Q Who?".
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Quote:Wow. I am only critiquing GEN. I have critiqued the REST of the Trek series on their OWN merits, and SIMILAR issues.
Then why aren't you critquing GEN on it's own merits?
I just did above - but you halted it and decided to focus on what Steve responded to with respect to my comment on the Borg introduction. Go read my elaboration and critique of GEN again if you want the scoop on THAT.
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You've already admitted that you didn't consider any of this an issue until other episodes and movies got on your nerves.
I didn't consider the El-Aurian stuff an issue, idiotically thinking that this was a "mistake". Yet as the films continued and the series continued and one of the SAME writers decided to continue with the Borg, inserting their "first" appearance with Humanity futher and further back in time, then GEN now stands out as not being a "mistake" at all. But it was done on purpose, as the starting point for the re-imagining of the Star Trek universe.
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Quote:But you seek to go beyond the context of what I am saying about what GEN does. THAT in fact expands the scope of this.
No, I'm seeking to make a point.
Are you? First your point was to argue that I shouldn't talk anything about GEN except the Borg comment that Steve remarked on - although Steve ALSO indicated that GEN "had enough problems". And I pointed out the issue with the Borg knowledge by the El-Aurians of the 23rd century and how it was silly to assume that NONE of them would inform the Federation about WHY they were "refugees". But then suddenly you shifted focus away from that and into the more generic.
So which is it?
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I don't care to argue the earlier contradictions (at least, not at this time). But Generations could not have been the start of 'retconning', as you keep insisting,
Oh but it IS.
If you look at TUC, which was the previous film, it sets up the events that one would hear about in TNG "Unification I & II". Ie., the whole Khitomer Conference and Klingons and Spock's involvement in that. And interestingly enough, TNG "Unification I & II" aired about a month before TUC released in the theaters and so one could get a "hint" about the Khitomer Accords that Spock mentions - and then see them the next month in TUC.
But with GEN, rather than tie film with episode, it contrives a scenario merely to insert a known species that fits something they need, into the past, with total disregard to HOW they do this and what its effect might be on the future as known and shown in other episodes.
As both Moore and Braga have noted - they bit off more than they could chew.
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with all of these much larger inconsistencies looming in the background. (And I was kidding about the Spock one.)
But we're talking about GEN.
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Quote:The fact is that what GEN does has longer term consequences on TNG itself because of one thing. Marketing of the Borg.
After the fact. Which is the same thing you object to above when you believe I'm complaining that TNG contradicts GEN (which I'm not).
TNG's (the series) version came first and holds the precedence. It's just like the events of TNG "Relics" which aired before GEN and Scotty's quip about Kirk pulling the 1701-A "out of mothballs" to come get him... Yet as we all know, the later-released GEN has Kirk "die" and Scotty was right there when it happened.
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Quote:And in fact, with the opening of the Las Vegas "Borg Experience" or whatever the hell it's called, starting with GEN, this group of marketable beings has been inserted earlier and earlier and earlier into the canon of Trek.
You consider the Borg Experience canon?
No, I consider it the result of marketing THANKS to their multiple (and contrived) appearances in Star Trek. ;-)
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Quote:My above comment is more expostionary for other readers of this sub-thread. It only gives an example of more post-GEN transgressions - but specifically TNG-related.
If it was intended that way, I take back my earlier comment.
For that particular train of thought, it was more of an aside...
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However, I must point out that it does not remotely come across that way. When you make a comment in direct response to what I've said -- a direct quote, no less -- it comes off as accusing me of having the opinion that you're referencing, unless you make a clear distinction otherwise. Remember that things don't always read in print as they would sound if you were talking.
True - I usually write in more "generic" or "universal" terms when I am doing a soliloquy. Otherwise I generally address "you" as "you".
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Quote:No - GEN placing Borg knowledge by the Federation back into the 23rd century opens up the "permission" to continue to do so throughout the TNG films and finally into VOY, where it wasn't until the 3rd season of the show where Borg appear - and even then, it is because the show's premise DID hurl them into the Delta Quadrant.
As mentioned elsewhere in my comments, I was referring to the flashbacks in "Dark Frontier" specifically, not to the whole of Voyager. Remember, you were the one who brought them up.
I brought them up as examples of, as you say (and I couldn't think of the term - thanks) "Retconning". After GEN, VOY does this, and most recently, ENT.
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Quote:Having a character state an archetypical definition for themself is First Grade writing.
Funny. They did the exact same thing with Guinan and Martus to let us know that they were listeners.
For Martus, yes. For Guinan? No. Guinan was shown to do ALOT. She could sense different timelines per TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise" and apparently could cause Q some problems.
But calling them a "race of listeners" is silly and trivializes them. When Odo is given dialog in DS9 "Rivals" to reveal that he was aware of who the El-Aurians were, it ALSO trivializes what Guinan had built the El-Aurians to be. But at least Martus' dialog elaborates a bit more to make him more consistent with what Guinan had been shown to do and in fact, the back and forth between Odo and Martus actually gives variations on the "theme" as it were to somehow try to make him "unique" and show how those "abilities" and "traits" could be applied in a more nefarious way. But in the case of GEN, since there WERE others there, there could have been SOME development of them - perhaps even having Soran have a cohort who was also El-Aurian to give a contrasting view.
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Watch the background in Generations. On the few occasions where Soran is actually with a crowd, this is exactly what he is doing. And anyone who takes him as an advisor is absolutely nuts.
Huh? He was THERE to do what? Look for Picard and in fact, he had asked around for him. He's not "listening" to anyone but looking for Picard. And he gets outright desperate, because Riker tells Picard back in the Ready Room that Soran had been looking for him and "insisted" on speaking with Picard "right away". And Picard is unphased by all of this but eventually goes down to Ten Forward and has his encounter with Soran.
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Quote:The fact that Soran did no 'listening" except during a torture session that apparently yielded him nothing, is not consistent with the archetype.
It's hard to listen effectively if no one's talking. Did you really expect Geordi to give in?
Again - this is contrived. He is just a generic "bad guy". Good old Snidely in the flesh.
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Quote:If he had "listened" to Picard's arguments on Veridian III and perhaps even decided to change his mind at the last minute (meaning he was willing to hear Picard out) - but then got caught in a quandry because he might have already gone too far and couldn't stop the process once started - then THAT might have brought him closer to his archetype.
By that argument, you aren't "listening" to what I'm saying, because then you would agree with me. "Listening", "understanding", and "agreeing" are three completely separate concepts. Soran appeared to "listen" to and, in his mind, negate all of Picard's arguments.
If you want to argue THAT, then we will have to agree to disagree because this does NOTHING to redeem the character, in the literary sense. It is the difference between a 1-dimensional "Bad guy™" and a more fleshed out "nemesis" character, who one could sympathize with.
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Quote:He would have symbollically been a redeemable character.
But that's another issue entirely.
No it's not. It is a failing of GEN.
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Quote:I mean, this sort of theme has been out there for a LONG time and could have worked in GEN for Soran. Ie., Soran is "reformed". THAT would be a more Roddenberry way of concluding the saga of Soran.
Right. Just like how Khan reformed, and General Chang reformed, and the Romulans reformed...
I expect you missed TOS "Space Seed" (although I'm sure you didn't... ;-)) to know who and what Khan WAS. And you also missed HOW Chang was used in combination with Cartright, West, Valeris, and others in the theme of prejudice and the status quo and the fall of the Klingon Empire (akin to the fall of the USSR). No such lofty themes were there in GEN with respect to the "Bad Guy™" called "Soran".
Chang spent the WHOLE of the film quoting Shakespeare to let the audience know EXACTLY where he was coming from. All Soran did was talk about "time" being a "predator" - THIS from someone who was supposed to be "long-lived". Making his comment meaningless. In essence, an attempt was made to have Soran somehow connect with Picard by making the argument about "time", but there can be no "connection" because they have vastly different lifespans.
IF IF IF, Soran had made such a speech to a Picard who had ALSO been "ripped from the Nexus", THEN Picard could perhaps sympathize with him. And if anything, there was only a little brought up between Picard and Soran regarding the Borg, despite THAT being "common" to them. But then any more than that and it would further make a mess of the fact that Soran had known about the Borg and worked with the Federation WITH that knowledge all those years... yet the Feds knew nothing about them until Q hurled Picard into the Delta Quadrant.
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But again, this is not the issue that we were discussing. If anything, it might be worthy of another thread, but it doesn't really fit this one.
I don't know - now you have shifted again. First you wanted to stick with the Borg knowledge introduction to GEN, then you dropped that and started talking generically about GEN, now you drop that... Which is it? There's alot. But it might not even be worth discussing because this film is water under the bridge, and the writers themselves have critiqued it quite a bit now. ;-)
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Quote:Yet I have also complained about much of what happened in DS9 "Rivals" with this character.
Then the issue is DS9's fault, not that of Generations, which fit everything previously established.
And I already pointed out where GEN went wrong with El-Aurians, refusing to at least FIX the superficial treatment in DS9 "Rivals", an ep that aired during what was then, the latter half of the final season of TNG (January 1994), AS they were getting ready to wrap up TNG and write GEN.
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Quote:And Soran does no such "fitting" any archetype except the one instance I mention when Soran and Guinan supposedly sense each other and Soran darts away.
Okay... In all of the comments so far, there's something important that you still haven't said:
What is the archetype?
They are long-lived.
They have an extra-sensory sense.
They can distinguish differences in time.
They may go by different names and may even be as powerful as a Q.
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What does it mean to be El-Aurian, beyond just being a listener and having vague time-related abilities?
If Soran can't even abide by more than one trait, and certainly, being approachable, as has been suggested by both the actions of a Guinan and that of a Martus, then why bother calling him that?
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If it is just being a listener, then Soran already meets the criteria, whether the way they accomplished it was 'lame' or not.
He doesn't accomplish "anything". He doesn't even conform to what DS9 "Rivals" even supposedly attempts to establish, ie., per the initial conversation between Odo and Martus:
Odo: "I know all about you El-Aurians. You're 'listeners'. People like to talk to you."
Martus: "Everyone needs someone to confide in. Someone to hear their stories. I offer a sympathetic ear. And if they request my help -- I give it to them."
What did Soran do to match the above, which is essentailly the type of thing that Guinan was shown doing in her job at Ten Forward and that Martus used to gain advantage? Ie., Soran could have connived his way like a Martus. But he didn't. He became like a battering ram. And dialog was given to Guinan to falsely accentuate the power of the Nexus - which was supposedly enough to cause a Soran to go mad. And in her case, she had nearly 80 years to get over it. But Picard? He bops right out of it with no problem and the whole experience is forgotten by the time of FC.
Reset.
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Quote:I'm saying that rather than have characters spout off what they are supposed to be like, they ACT LIKE they are supposed to be like. ;-) There's a difference. And that difference separates elementary school character writing from college-level and above character writing.
Really? But before, you said:
Quote:The character isn't even consistent within the El-Aurian archetype.
And he ISN'T. And the way that they DID establish him, he wasn't even consistent with THAT either.
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Which, in fact, is the basis of this entire argument. Is the issue inconsistency or just general poor writing?
The presence of character AND species inconsistencies IS "general poor writing". They are part and parcel.
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Quote:No - you manufacture something that isn't my opinion about it. Oh well. Hopefully the above will clarify the difference. ;-)
It's not necessary to argue with something that was said purely in jest.
Okay - and this applies to that comment about how writing comes across and how that works both ways. ;-)
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I thought the argument was getting too serious and I wanted to lighten it up a little. And you can't say you didn't notice that I was joking, because I said it explicitly.
Well - I have been in several silly flame wars of late with some folks who I consider trolls, so it's that mode I'm in. Sorry and I agree about "lightening it up".
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So, how 'bout them Klingons?
I am a Vulcan fan. I don't care about Klingons.
Wow, you'll argue about anything. ;-)
Maybe, maybe not.
If you trash my Vulcans, you'll hear about it. Klingons? Eh... I'll let my buddy spacebeluga tackle them. ;-)
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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Yeah - I think this was getting a bit long.
Actually - It seems we agree on quite a bit and no, the only thing I liked about TNG "Relics" was the science fiction idea of a "Dyson Sphere", the Data comment "it's green" in description of one of Guinan's "real" stash of alcoholic beverages (as a nod to TOS), and the 1701-D escape sequence out of the Sphere at the end, where to me, that was one of the most perfectly-timed effects in Trek, with the ship executing a beautiful 90° roll in order to move through the Sphere's hatch doors just as they close shut. The rest? Beaming through shields? Scotty whining to Troi? LaForge written as an insulting cad? Sigh...
And I will say that believe it or not, despite my criticism of Moore, TNG "Chain of Command I & II" STILL stands as my favorite TNG episode of them all and anyone who has seen me post here when people tick off favorites, I always indicate this, along with my insistence that it, Stewart, and Warner, should have won an Emmy, if not, at least been nominated.
However I object to TNG "Relics" and his treatment of Scotty. I object to GEN and his treatment of Kirk, AND I object to his "re-imagining" of BSG and his treatment of the original BSG, which I have been a fan of since its premier in '78. His pattern of dealing with older characters (and shows) is quite clear and consistent AND, IMHO, insulting. ;-)
And comics? LOL The last comics that I probably bought (other than an occassional Mad Magazine) were back maybe 1970 or 71 and the "Archies". LOL!
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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