RE: Hmmm.... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:38:12 on Aug 28, 2004

Quote:

Some interesting points. However, none of them have anything to do with what we're talking about (#5 excepted). And rather than making a counterpoint there, you're simply repeating yourself. You're only proving Steve's earlier comment:

Quote:The movie has enough problems without making some up.

Interestingly enough, you decided to reply for Steve, and so I chose to expound on where I'm coming from, considering that the question by you was originally:

So the reason that Generations is at fault for the Borg first contact issue is because it shows a general disrespect for Gene Roddenberry by killing Kirk? That's quite a leap of logic you have going there...

And what I wrote was in response to THAT, considering what you wrote above takes a number of things that I commented on, and jumbles them altogether completely out of context. So I was trying to clarify.

Quote:

You sometimes make me wonder if you hit "quote" before you read the full comments... If you had finished reading the sentence you were responding to, I had already addressed that point.

And you sometimes make me wonder if you hit "quote" before you read and understood what I wrote because your inclusion of Guinan's appearance back in history was totally irrelevent to the subject. Yet since you mentioned it, I addressed it. If you don't want a comment to what you write, it's real simple... don't write it.

Quote:

I wasn't saying that they were in open communication in the 19th (not 18th) century -- I was saying it was unlikely that they waited a full 500 years before coming in contact again.

It doesn't matter. It is specious and has no bearing to GEN back-inserting events that end up conflicting with known events in the "current" or "future".

Quote:

Quote:Yes - see when I do my arguments, I quote each section down the line.

Perhaps, but you fragmented my sentences to make it look like I had ignored the facts, then you made a point that I had made below and made it sound like you were contradicting me.

How can that happen when I answer you sequentially. If what you wrote doesn't make sense when written in sequence, then that's not my fault but yours. I'm not skipping around here.

Quote:

Quote:I know the timelines. But does Braga and Moore? One of the crew on the 1701-B says:

Braga, maybe not, but Moore has been critical in maintaining and expanding the Star Trek canon since early in TNG, and I take offense at your treating him as if he has no respect for canon. This is the guy who wrote "Relics" for crying out loud!

And as I wrote above that you seemed to miss because you didn't read it, I took offense at TNG "Relics" and I explictly mentioned it earlier in this thread. He took a respected character and made him into a has-been, "under foot", and other nonsense.

You may have liked that episode but it was a disgrace, IMHO.

Quote:

Quote:Refugees??? After some 28 years if you assume Guinan's mention of "century" equalled 100 years prior?

Why not? They lost a planet, and they didn't have another home. I think that they should be considered refugees. The Trabe were still called refugees around 30 years after their overthrow by the Kazon in "Alliances" [VOY].

Yet you assume that no one in the Federation asked them why? It is contrived.

Quote:

Quote:You think that none of them were interviewed for name, place of birth, spouses, children, occupation, medical status, reasons for request of refugee status, yadda yadda?

Boy, the Federation has just as much red tape as the U.S. does...

LOL I'm sure. ;-)

Quote:

Quote:Don't fall into the Braga-Moore trap.

Again, I take offense at your implication that Ronald D. Moore doesn't care about continuity.

He doesn't. Witness DS9 "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" and his cavalier treatment (read: Lazy) of the timeframe of the Eugenics Wars, something that prompted a recent thread here after Coto mentioned details on the upcoming Spiner episodes. Also note the screw-up where GEN actually conflicts with his earlier TNG "Relics" - ie., that was a well-talked about one - particularly since a decision was made (however they did the casting, which also had issues with who they could bring on I understand) to bring in Doohan to guest star in GEN. When it comes to anything to do with TOS, his "continuity" falters.

Quote:

Quote:The PROBLEM is having 150 "refugees"

As you mentioned earlier, 2/3 of that number died, and thus were even less talkative than usual.

Really? They seemed to be "talkative" to me when they were first beamed on board the 1701-B.

Quote:

Quote:Yet we have no look into what Soran's fantasy was in the Nexus.

Why should we? Do you think it would have been interesting to watch?

You bet. I just gave you reasons why. This character cannot become a true literal (from the literature standpoint) sympathetic character unless his inner thoughts are revealed to the audience. That's standard stuff. Whatever plot device they use to do it... And the Nexus was as good as any. Mind melds are plot devices used for such, personal logs, letters to friends or home... something... If only for completeness.

Down further, you mention Khan and Chang. And in both of these cases, you have Khan already having a backstory with Kirk which establishes his motives and thoughts and reasons. In TOS "Space Seed", he was involved in a 3-way debate with Kirk and Spock and figured out that they were trying to pump him for information after awhile. So his character-as-nemesis was establshed.

Even if you go back to Kruge in TSFS, he was closer to Soran as a 1-dimensional bad guy, except that he actually becomes the instrument of an action that has a powerful effect on Kirk - the death of Kirk's son and the destruction of Kirk's ship. So he becomes more like a catalyst to a series of major events that will ultimately impact Kirk for another 3 films.

With Chang, he has been shown to have taken a liking to Shakespeare and he uses it to establish his frame of mind. Just the use of Shakespeare as Chang's plot device, takes Chang one step beyond the carboard bad guy that Soran is.

And with the deleted scene of Kirk being shot by Soran, it would have been closer to how a Kruge was shown. However that was ultimately rejected and a different ending was devised making Kirk's death meaningless - done by a meaningless character.

Quote:

Quote:So what he says and what he does is in conflict.

How so? You didn't establish any conflict.

The conflict in terms of his actions and behavior versus what he says. And the whole scene down on Veridian III between him and Picard is a perfect example. He "listens" to nothing.

Quote:

Picard refers to them as old friends long before he found out about the events of "Time's Arrow".

Correct. And over the years with all the fan speculation - particularly on the net, by the 5th/6th season we get - surprise, surprise. TNG "Time's Arrow I & II". And that pair of episodes was much-discussed on USENET and the reason for it. And in fact, the episode even includes this dialog:

Guinian: "You're still here..."

Picard: "You were hurt. I had to make sure you were all right."

Guinan: "You stayed here... for that... ?"

Picard: "I can't very well let anything happen to you. You're far too important to me."

Guinan: "You know so much about me..."

Picard: "Believe me, in the future the tables will be turned."

Guinan: "We... become friends..."

Picard: "It goes beyond friendship."

Guinan: "But... I have to wait almost five hundred years... And when we meet, I won't be able to tell you about this, will I?"

Picard: "No. Because for me, it won't have happened yet."

And so THIS supposedly "established" HOW and WHY they "knew" each other "BEFORE" (in quotes), ie., they "met" back in the 1800s when she didn't know him, via a time travel plot device. I know alot of folks thought that using THAT as THE reason, was contrived at the time. But it stands as the canon.

Quote:

Are you positing that they had really only known each other since Guinan came on the Enterprise-D? Otherwise, your comment above is largely irrelevant.

No - I'm saying that many fans were curious about when it was and under what circumstances that they first met and TNG "Time's Arrow I & II" was supposedly written to address that big question.

Quote:

Quote:Yes - yet you are arguing against my argument that the Federation itself should have KNOWN about the Borg as far back as the 23rd century. You know, Kirk's time.

I'm arguing that the problem existed whether it was as far back as the 23rd century or just since Guinan met Picard.

But your argument is specious because this wasn't a "problem" until GEN made it one. THAT is what I'm saying.

Before GEN, we knew the Borg had attacked El-Auria per TNG "Q Who?" and we even knew when that had happened. But there was no establishing that El-Aurians had actually made contact with the Federation, let alone revealing themselves as El-Aurians, let alone as "refugees" in the 23rd century.

Quote:

Either there's always been a problem and there's no explanation, or there's always been a problem and there's a somewhat flimsy explanation. Don't pretend the problem wasn't around before Generations -- Generations just made it more obvious.

It wasn't a "problem" until GEN made it one. It decided to use the Soran character and the Guinan character to be the "link" between 2 eras, and this could be done because part of the species archetype included the fact that El-Aurians were "long-lived". However, the contrivance was to have a Soran and a Guinan, magically be "found" by a ship that Kirk was on.

Quote:

Quote:???? You are USING GEN to claim that events that supposedly occured before GEN, but were only introduced to the audience, BY GEN, are not the fault of GEN?

If that is what you are arguing, it's nonsense.

You're right, that is nonsense. Good thing it's not what I'm arguing. As mentioned above, the problem was introduced by Guinan and, to a lesser extent, characters like Martus that made the El-Aurians appear more commonplace around the Federation. This was all before Generations was ever made.

But that doesn't negate the fact that GEN shows El-Aurians making contact with the Federation in the 23rd century and they are considered "refugees". And the cause of their "refugee status" WAS the Borg. Yet none of them spilled the beans about WHY they were "refugees".

Quote:

Quote:I'm not seeing your arguments in that light - at least not the way you phrased them.

That was intended as a joke.

Okay.

Quote:

Quote:I am generally willing to hand-wave over single transgressions. But if you look at what came after GEN, the pattern is clear.

Then you're making the argument that you object to above. To rephrase it to fit your argument:

Slightly altered Quote:

Slightly altered? LOL

Quote:

???? You are USING FIRST CONTACT, VOYAGER, AND ENTERPRISE to claim that events that supposedly occured before GEN, but were only introduced to the audience, AFTER GEN, are the fault of GEN?

If that is what you are arguing, it's nonsense.

And it is.

No - I am actually pointing out that THIS is what GEN started as a trend-setter for specific writers to start DOING. And THAT is what I object to.

It's called, inserting past major historical events, after the fact, that since they are done sloppily, should have impacted on that which would occur in the future. And the insertion of such inturn, negate the events of the future as shown in earlier episodes.

And this is different than fleshing out past events because in this case, these MAJOR EVENTS (El-Aurian "refugees" who had fled the Borg) are introduced to the past, and their Borg knowledge should have been passed onto the people of that earlier period, which would have inturn, impacted the future. And that's why when someone does a "prequel", they must be very careful not to create major events that might cause a conflict with something that had been fleshed out in previous stories that were set in a future time.

Quote:

Quote:And GEN ends up being the template for HOW one can disrespect canon by introducing elements previously considered "unknown" in later times, to characters in earlier times, thus negating the reactions of those characters in the later era.

This would be a strong point if it were true.

And I have been posting why it is true. Because to argue otherwise, would be to dumb down the plot AND the Federation characters AND the species itself. It is as bad as the introduction of the Ferengi in ENT "Acquisition" where the crew interacts with them after they had taken over the ship, yet no one gets their "name". And if they had, then it would conflict with TNG "The Last Outpost", when Data searched everything in every database he had access to and found little or nothing about them and Picard's own log stated that it would be the "first" contact with them... although they had heard "rumors" etc. Yet now, the ENT crew not only made contact with them but didn't bother asking who they were, but they ran into a different species in ENT "Dear Doctor", who named them off. Yet the dumbed down crew didn't bother getting ANY information from that guy on ANY of the species he ticked off, including the Ferengi, despite the fact that they were supposed to be "explorers".

Quote:

Unfortunately, the issue occurs no matter when the El-Aurians first initially encounter the Federation. Generations only decided when the issue happened -- it didn't create it.

The "when" IS the conflict with what was already established. And this contrivance dumbs down the story.

Quote:

Quote:But what you fail to realize is that nearly all of TNG was "standalone".

That's patently ridiculous. "Q Who?" was a sequel to "The Neutral Zone" and "Hide and Q". How was it "standalone" in the literal sense in which you are using it?

And you didn't read what I said. "Nearly". I am aware that the Borg are hinted at in TNG "The Neutral Zone" due to the colonies along the border that were destroyed, thus prompting the first contact between the Feds and Romulans since the "Tomed Incident".

Let me clarify specifically for TNG "Q Who?" If you look at how the Borg were portrayed, the only way they could get out of it was thanks to the deux ex machina move by Q. Yet a decision was made to continue with this theme and the Borg are then dumbed down and weakened from that defined by Hurley.

And GEN takes what happened - where the Feds have their FIRST contact with the Borg, thanks to Q and where they knew NOTHING about them, and then "turns things on their ear" and introduces a number of people who DID know about them because the Borg made them "refugees". Yet none of this is passed on to the Feds of the past where these people who know about the Borg, suddenly "appear".

Quote:

Quote:IMHO, TNG "Q Who?" was to be a single instance of an intractable enemy and then The End.

To be blunt, your HO is wrong in this case, according to The Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion by Larry Nemecek.

However, this did NOT include putting El-Aurians into Federation hands back in the 23rd century, where those El-Aurians had been exposed to the Borg and were termed "refugees". Thus negating the very TNG episodes that occur in the later time. If GEN had introduced El-Aurians, NOT as "refugees" but as "travellers" or "colonists" or some other such term, then it would have softened this. But the focus of Soran WAS his grief after the Borg made them refugees, where the Nexus was his drug to soften the blow.

Quote:

Quote: However TNG decided to continue on with the Borg theme ad infinitum, and, continues this trend.

Just as they had planned to.

But NOT to take then back in time with respect to Federation knowledge of them.

The Borg did what they did to the El-Aurians in the 23rd century. But THIS fact could have been kept OUT of the 23rd century Federation. Ie., the suggestion was that since the Borg operated out of the Delta Quadrant, then El-Auria was probably located there. And they could have kept the bulk of them there along the border and perhaps just transported 1 or 2 for story-telling purposes. THEN you might justify no one saying anything.

But to have 150? And even 47 survivors? And none say why?

Quote:

Quote:That ep never established WHEN the El-Aurians had contacted Earth.

You're right. But they had done so at some point before "Q Who?", so the when isn't particularly relevant.

But that STILL isn't established during the entirety of TNG. We only know the El-Aurians had established themselves AS that species with Guinan's appearance on the ship - especially if you believe that the events of TNG "Time's Arrow I & II" is in fact "true", with respect to HOW and WHY Guinan and Picard knew each other "before" (the time travel).

Quote:

Quote:They could have kept the bulk of them on the periphery of the Federation until the 24th century, after the timeframe of TNG "Q Who?".

They could have. It's more likely they didn't based on Guinan's relationship with Picard, but your assumption isn't impossible (pre-Generations).

It would have made this issue more plausible with respect to "no one" telling the 23rd century Feds about the Borg back then.

Quote:

If you want to make assumptions to explain stuff, that's fine by me, but please don't criticze the writers if they contradict your assumptions later on. In any case, the Guinan problem still remains.

No - I only point out the continuity issue with GEN and Guinan is NOT the "problem". The contrivance that GEN did with her and Soran and the rest of the El-Aurians, is.

Quote:

Quote:THAT is what I'm talking about. Everything he was shown doing WAS "blabby".

He started to get that way on the planet, but that was primarily in response to Picard's prodding.

Irrelevent. He was poorly written and even Nimoy notes that. A few tweeks could have salvaged this character.

Quote:

Quote:EVERY show (particularly science fiction with various aliens) has archetypes, otherwise you run into problems determining what makes one alien different from another.

And every archetype has variations, otherwise the characters become boring.

Of course. But I'm afraid if the character can't even stick with the "basics", then like T'Pol, he is an outlyer and can then be considered contrived to fit the plot rather than be used in a specific commentator role as all Trek aliens are used for.

Quote:

Soran had to be El-Aurian (or something similar) for the story to work, because:

1. He had to be on the ship in the past with Guinan.
2. He had to live another hundred years without getting too old.

Correct.

Quote:

In order to fit the El-Aurian archetype, he had to:

1. Be a listener.

But he also needed to be shown with more of whatever "telepathic" sense it is that they have. And he was briefly shown to have it but then that was dropped and forgotten.

Quote:

He was a listener, both in the obvious ways you mention and in more subtle ways.

What "subtle" ways? There was little or nothing "subtle" about the character.

Quote:

Check off point #1 on the archetype list and move on to all the other points. What were they again?

Sorry, you're missing some points. Which is why the character became this guy (hint, NOT "Dudley Dooright! LOL):



Quote:

Really. Then how did they accomplish this without traveling back in time (more than a couple of hours). I don't think traveling forward in time really accomplishes what you're mentioning here. "Use contrived time travel", indeed...

My argument is not with the time travel in this instance. It is the story that they contrived during that time travel, that causes a conflict with what was known in the future. By calling these El-Aurians "refugees", this then introduces a question as to "why". And if all those folks who they showed supposedly don't say "why", then the plot is dumbed down in order to not violate the canon of TNG "Q Who?".

Quote:

Quote:Wow. I am only critiquing GEN. I have critiqued the REST of the Trek series on their OWN merits, and SIMILAR issues.

Then why aren't you critquing GEN on it's own merits?

I just did above - but you halted it and decided to focus on what Steve responded to with respect to my comment on the Borg introduction. Go read my elaboration and critique of GEN again if you want the scoop on THAT.

Quote:

You've already admitted that you didn't consider any of this an issue until other episodes and movies got on your nerves.

I didn't consider the El-Aurian stuff an issue, idiotically thinking that this was a "mistake". Yet as the films continued and the series continued and one of the SAME writers decided to continue with the Borg, inserting their "first" appearance with Humanity futher and further back in time, then GEN now stands out as not being a "mistake" at all. But it was done on purpose, as the starting point for the re-imagining of the Star Trek universe.

Quote:

Quote:But you seek to go beyond the context of what I am saying about what GEN does. THAT in fact expands the scope of this.

No, I'm seeking to make a point.

Are you? First your point was to argue that I shouldn't talk anything about GEN except the Borg comment that Steve remarked on - although Steve ALSO indicated that GEN "had enough problems". And I pointed out the issue with the Borg knowledge by the El-Aurians of the 23rd century and how it was silly to assume that NONE of them would inform the Federation about WHY they were "refugees". But then suddenly you shifted focus away from that and into the more generic.

So which is it?

Quote:

I don't care to argue the earlier contradictions (at least, not at this time). But Generations could not have been the start of 'retconning', as you keep insisting,

Oh but it IS.

If you look at TUC, which was the previous film, it sets up the events that one would hear about in TNG "Unification I & II". Ie., the whole Khitomer Conference and Klingons and Spock's involvement in that. And interestingly enough, TNG "Unification I & II" aired about a month before TUC released in the theaters and so one could get a "hint" about the Khitomer Accords that Spock mentions - and then see them the next month in TUC.

But with GEN, rather than tie film with episode, it contrives a scenario merely to insert a known species that fits something they need, into the past, with total disregard to HOW they do this and what its effect might be on the future as known and shown in other episodes.

As both Moore and Braga have noted - they bit off more than they could chew.

Quote:

with all of these much larger inconsistencies looming in the background. (And I was kidding about the Spock one.)

But we're talking about GEN.

Quote:

Quote:The fact is that what GEN does has longer term consequences on TNG itself because of one thing. Marketing of the Borg.

After the fact. Which is the same thing you object to above when you believe I'm complaining that TNG contradicts GEN (which I'm not).

TNG's (the series) version came first and holds the precedence. It's just like the events of TNG "Relics" which aired before GEN and Scotty's quip about Kirk pulling the 1701-A "out of mothballs" to come get him... Yet as we all know, the later-released GEN has Kirk "die" and Scotty was right there when it happened.

Quote:

Quote:And in fact, with the opening of the Las Vegas "Borg Experience" or whatever the hell it's called, starting with GEN, this group of marketable beings has been inserted earlier and earlier and earlier into the canon of Trek.

You consider the Borg Experience canon?

No, I consider it the result of marketing THANKS to their multiple (and contrived) appearances in Star Trek. ;-)

Quote:

Quote:My above comment is more expostionary for other readers of this sub-thread. It only gives an example of more post-GEN transgressions - but specifically TNG-related.

If it was intended that way, I take back my earlier comment.

For that particular train of thought, it was more of an aside...

Quote:

However, I must point out that it does not remotely come across that way. When you make a comment in direct response to what I've said -- a direct quote, no less -- it comes off as accusing me of having the opinion that you're referencing, unless you make a clear distinction otherwise. Remember that things don't always read in print as they would sound if you were talking.

True - I usually write in more "generic" or "universal" terms when I am doing a soliloquy. Otherwise I generally address "you" as "you".

Quote:

Quote:No - GEN placing Borg knowledge by the Federation back into the 23rd century opens up the "permission" to continue to do so throughout the TNG films and finally into VOY, where it wasn't until the 3rd season of the show where Borg appear - and even then, it is because the show's premise DID hurl them into the Delta Quadrant.

As mentioned elsewhere in my comments, I was referring to the flashbacks in "Dark Frontier" specifically, not to the whole of Voyager. Remember, you were the one who brought them up.

I brought them up as examples of, as you say (and I couldn't think of the term - thanks) "Retconning". After GEN, VOY does this, and most recently, ENT.

Quote:

Quote:Having a character state an archetypical definition for themself is First Grade writing.

Funny. They did the exact same thing with Guinan and Martus to let us know that they were listeners.

For Martus, yes. For Guinan? No. Guinan was shown to do ALOT. She could sense different timelines per TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise" and apparently could cause Q some problems.

But calling them a "race of listeners" is silly and trivializes them. When Odo is given dialog in DS9 "Rivals" to reveal that he was aware of who the El-Aurians were, it ALSO trivializes what Guinan had built the El-Aurians to be. But at least Martus' dialog elaborates a bit more to make him more consistent with what Guinan had been shown to do and in fact, the back and forth between Odo and Martus actually gives variations on the "theme" as it were to somehow try to make him "unique" and show how those "abilities" and "traits" could be applied in a more nefarious way. But in the case of GEN, since there WERE others there, there could have been SOME development of them - perhaps even having Soran have a cohort who was also El-Aurian to give a contrasting view.

Quote:

Watch the background in Generations. On the few occasions where Soran is actually with a crowd, this is exactly what he is doing. And anyone who takes him as an advisor is absolutely nuts.

Huh? He was THERE to do what? Look for Picard and in fact, he had asked around for him. He's not "listening" to anyone but looking for Picard. And he gets outright desperate, because Riker tells Picard back in the Ready Room that Soran had been looking for him and "insisted" on speaking with Picard "right away". And Picard is unphased by all of this but eventually goes down to Ten Forward and has his encounter with Soran.

Quote:

Quote:The fact that Soran did no 'listening" except during a torture session that apparently yielded him nothing, is not consistent with the archetype.

It's hard to listen effectively if no one's talking. Did you really expect Geordi to give in?

Again - this is contrived. He is just a generic "bad guy". Good old Snidely in the flesh.

Quote:

Quote:If he had "listened" to Picard's arguments on Veridian III and perhaps even decided to change his mind at the last minute (meaning he was willing to hear Picard out) - but then got caught in a quandry because he might have already gone too far and couldn't stop the process once started - then THAT might have brought him closer to his archetype.

By that argument, you aren't "listening" to what I'm saying, because then you would agree with me. "Listening", "understanding", and "agreeing" are three completely separate concepts. Soran appeared to "listen" to and, in his mind, negate all of Picard's arguments.

If you want to argue THAT, then we will have to agree to disagree because this does NOTHING to redeem the character, in the literary sense. It is the difference between a 1-dimensional "Bad guy™" and a more fleshed out "nemesis" character, who one could sympathize with.

Quote:

Quote:He would have symbollically been a redeemable character.

But that's another issue entirely.

No it's not. It is a failing of GEN.

Quote:

Quote:I mean, this sort of theme has been out there for a LONG time and could have worked in GEN for Soran. Ie., Soran is "reformed". THAT would be a more Roddenberry way of concluding the saga of Soran.

Right. Just like how Khan reformed, and General Chang reformed, and the Romulans reformed...

I expect you missed TOS "Space Seed" (although I'm sure you didn't... ;-)) to know who and what Khan WAS. And you also missed HOW Chang was used in combination with Cartright, West, Valeris, and others in the theme of prejudice and the status quo and the fall of the Klingon Empire (akin to the fall of the USSR). No such lofty themes were there in GEN with respect to the "Bad Guy™" called "Soran".

Chang spent the WHOLE of the film quoting Shakespeare to let the audience know EXACTLY where he was coming from. All Soran did was talk about "time" being a "predator" - THIS from someone who was supposed to be "long-lived". Making his comment meaningless. In essence, an attempt was made to have Soran somehow connect with Picard by making the argument about "time", but there can be no "connection" because they have vastly different lifespans.

IF IF IF, Soran had made such a speech to a Picard who had ALSO been "ripped from the Nexus", THEN Picard could perhaps sympathize with him. And if anything, there was only a little brought up between Picard and Soran regarding the Borg, despite THAT being "common" to them. But then any more than that and it would further make a mess of the fact that Soran had known about the Borg and worked with the Federation WITH that knowledge all those years... yet the Feds knew nothing about them until Q hurled Picard into the Delta Quadrant.

Quote:

But again, this is not the issue that we were discussing. If anything, it might be worthy of another thread, but it doesn't really fit this one.

I don't know - now you have shifted again. First you wanted to stick with the Borg knowledge introduction to GEN, then you dropped that and started talking generically about GEN, now you drop that... Which is it? There's alot. But it might not even be worth discussing because this film is water under the bridge, and the writers themselves have critiqued it quite a bit now. ;-)

Quote:

Quote:Yet I have also complained about much of what happened in DS9 "Rivals" with this character.

Then the issue is DS9's fault, not that of Generations, which fit everything previously established.

And I already pointed out where GEN went wrong with El-Aurians, refusing to at least FIX the superficial treatment in DS9 "Rivals", an ep that aired during what was then, the latter half of the final season of TNG (January 1994), AS they were getting ready to wrap up TNG and write GEN.

Quote:

Quote:And Soran does no such "fitting" any archetype except the one instance I mention when Soran and Guinan supposedly sense each other and Soran darts away.

Okay... In all of the comments so far, there's something important that you still haven't said:

What is the archetype?

They are long-lived.
They have an extra-sensory sense.
They can distinguish differences in time.
They may go by different names and may even be as powerful as a Q.

Quote:

What does it mean to be El-Aurian, beyond just being a listener and having vague time-related abilities?

If Soran can't even abide by more than one trait, and certainly, being approachable, as has been suggested by both the actions of a Guinan and that of a Martus, then why bother calling him that?

Quote:

If it is just being a listener, then Soran already meets the criteria, whether the way they accomplished it was 'lame' or not.

He doesn't accomplish "anything". He doesn't even conform to what DS9 "Rivals" even supposedly attempts to establish, ie., per the initial conversation between Odo and Martus:

Odo: "I know all about you El-Aurians. You're 'listeners'. People like to talk to you."

Martus: "Everyone needs someone to confide in. Someone to hear their stories. I offer a sympathetic ear. And if they request my help -- I give it to them."

What did Soran do to match the above, which is essentailly the type of thing that Guinan was shown doing in her job at Ten Forward and that Martus used to gain advantage? Ie., Soran could have connived his way like a Martus. But he didn't. He became like a battering ram. And dialog was given to Guinan to falsely accentuate the power of the Nexus - which was supposedly enough to cause a Soran to go mad. And in her case, she had nearly 80 years to get over it. But Picard? He bops right out of it with no problem and the whole experience is forgotten by the time of FC.

Reset.

Quote:

Quote:I'm saying that rather than have characters spout off what they are supposed to be like, they ACT LIKE they are supposed to be like. ;-) There's a difference. And that difference separates elementary school character writing from college-level and above character writing.

Really? But before, you said:

Quote:The character isn't even consistent within the El-Aurian archetype.

And he ISN'T. And the way that they DID establish him, he wasn't even consistent with THAT either.

Quote:

Which, in fact, is the basis of this entire argument. Is the issue inconsistency or just general poor writing?

The presence of character AND species inconsistencies IS "general poor writing". They are part and parcel.

Quote:

Quote:No - you manufacture something that isn't my opinion about it. Oh well. Hopefully the above will clarify the difference. ;-)

It's not necessary to argue with something that was said purely in jest.

Okay - and this applies to that comment about how writing comes across and how that works both ways. ;-)

Quote:

I thought the argument was getting too serious and I wanted to lighten it up a little. And you can't say you didn't notice that I was joking, because I said it explicitly.

Well - I have been in several silly flame wars of late with some folks who I consider trolls, so it's that mode I'm in. Sorry and I agree about "lightening it up".

Quote:

Quote:Quote:
So, how 'bout them Klingons?

I am a Vulcan fan. I don't care about Klingons.

Wow, you'll argue about anything. ;-)

Maybe, maybe not.

If you trash my Vulcans, you'll hear about it. Klingons? Eh... I'll let my buddy spacebeluga tackle them. ;-)

--------

"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

Reply

Quote

Parent

Top