I have to admit, I've lurked on this board for years without posting, and it seems this has finally done it.
ABOUT TIME!!!! About time B&B (yes they are idiots, the people that hate them are not irrational haters that will never be pleased - B&B are simply not good at what they do), about time they give up and let somebody who genuinely loves Trek come and take the reigns.
About time Enterprise isn't screwing around with rediculous races that nobody has heard about and nobody cares about. Kazon anyone??? I mean, at least the Kazon had the advantage of actually being able to cohesively fit into the Trek timeline. But completely spitting on years of established history? That got them, well, we've seen what it got them!
About time The Powers That Be quit trying to remake Trek in their own (uninteresting) image and actually take the "prequel" idea seriously and attempt to make some sort of bridge with the Trek that we know, rather than one that is completely "alien" (haha couldn't resist) to anything remotely Trek.
It is a shame that Coto has to invoke a Vulcan Civil War in order to reassert the idea of a Vulcan from these strange people we've had to watch into the Vulcans of Spok, Saavik and Tuvok. But it that's what it takes to fix, I'm all for it.
And I really thought that the ideas of trotting out Spiner and Shatner were nothing more than desperate ratings gimmicks, but this seems to actually be somewhat organic to the story of Trek as has been laid out previously (Spiner at least...)
I understand Coto's frustration with the Eugenics Wars. The book that attempted to explain them as actually happening "behind the scenes" of the 90's was a good try, but keeping it in the vague area of "the past" seems to be the best way to go. The less specific the possible, let anybody fill in the ambiguity with whatever explanation they prefer.
Maybe they'll even explain why "Khan Noonian Singh" and "Noonien Soong" sound so freaking similar!!!
I'm trying not to wonder what Enterprise would be like right now if this had happened from Day One, rather than after three years, but I suppose there's no use crying over spilled milk.
My dad got me into TOS when I was a kid, I grew up with TNG, loved DSN once the Dominion War began, and grew more and more disinterested as Voyager creaked and groaned into oblivion. A year into Enterprise and I was ready to completely give up.
But for the first time, I might actually become interested. Now that Trek _might_ actually be about Trek again.
Notice, however, that the excitement came as a result of... what? Ditching Braga to some sort of "executive advisor" role, bringing in a fresh voice that actually cares about the franchise, abandoning notions of "fast-and-looseness" (THE BORG?!?!?!?!?), and telling the story WE WANT TO HEAR! Yes, it seems like the fans may have a voice after all. It looks like they are going to attempt to do what we've been hoping. Whether it works or not of course remains to be seen, but...
IT'S ABOUT TIME they tried!!!!
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Maybe they'll even explain why "Khan Noonian Singh" and "Noonien Soong" sound so freaking similar!!!
We already know why, at least in the behind the scenes sense.
Roddenberry had a friend with a similar name with whom he had lost contact. With both names he was hoping that friend would notice the similarity and try to get in touch with him.
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"Now the Senate is looking for moderate judges, mainstream judges. What in the world is a moderate interpretation of a constitutional text? Halfway between what it says and what we'd like it to say?" - Justice Scalia
It's always amazing when people start talking about "what is established" as if past writers actually put any thought into the continuity.
Depending on what episode you look at, TOS was set either 200 years, or about 800 years into the future. "Space Seed" was one of those episodes that set it at 200. In TMP, the setting was finally placed in the 23rd century by Decker who said that Voyager 6 was launched "over 300 years ago." ST2 re-affirms this fact by the opening text, and by McCoy's wine bottle to Kirk ("2283") which means that the date was at least then.
So, according to the oh-so-established Canon of the series, the 1990s was either in the 26th century, the 21st Century, or, um, the 20th century. Then "15 years later" (a number that also doesn't fit with "canon"), the 1990s was 200 years prior to some time after 2283. Hmm.
Then, finally, and even more perplexing, "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" which takes place over 100 years after "Space Seed," establishes that the 1990s took place sometime in the 22nd century, or about 200 years before that episode.
So much for established continuity. If Coto says that the Eugenics Wars happened "in the past," he is doing continuity a favor, which is more than any past writer ever did with this subject.
Future Guy is a 30th century borgified Kirk, whom the Borg pulled out of the Nexxus for their own nefarious plans and hilarious hyjinx!
I think they're taking a big chance by messing with the eugenics wars. However, they may yet pull it off. I know a lot of purists will take issue with it, but I think Coto may have a way to justify it. He's got his work cut out for him with this new season ahead of him.
The problem with the eugenics wars is that the war and Khan figured into an episode of TOS and a movie (TWOK). The only way they might be able to get around this with any measure of approval from the fans is to hit that temporal reset button again. Who's to say that just because elements are tinkered with in the past, that a detached entity (such as the Botany Bay outside of Earth's influence) might not continue to exist even after the events which spawned it's exile are no longer a factor? The future destroys the past and creates a new present. It's sort of like a record player needle skipping on a worn out old vinyl record... sorta... but I digress.
Now that they aren't going to rely so heavily on the already stellar special effects, it looks like we're going to see stories that mirror the best of all the other series. This show finally has a direction. Braga himself used the word "lingered" in describing the Temporal Cold War arc. It was so cold that it was hibernating, and so was the audience for that matter. ENT looked to be a cure for insomnia during it's first season. The only thing that kept me awake was my curiousity as to what they were going to do next to upset the TREK universe. The above interview is the most inspiring TREK gossip I've heard in a long time.
The Vulcan civil war!!! This sounds like an excellent lead in to the Romulan wars and will allow for a better fleshing out of the Vulcans as a people, and parent race of the Romulans. Because I expect the Vulcans in the heat of battle to be much more hotheaded than a Romulan, I expect to see some rather strong carnage, hysteria and general mayhem. These emotional Vulcans of Archer's time in a ground conflict... we're gonna see pointy eared freaks waging war for a few years to come now, I predict the old type of STAR TREK will be reborn to a degree. Not everyone will be pleased, but everyone never is. I think that Coto knows what he's doing, and honestly... it may be the case that these ideas are ones that B+B had some input into, but they're going to let Coto take the fall if they bomb. B+B may not feel like they would want to tackle TOS elements because they know how a significant proportion of the fanbase feel about them. So, whatever the case, we may all be in for some real TREK next season.
If they do these ideas the way I see them in my head when I read the descriptions, it's gonna absolutely ROCK!!! I think that they can get excellent ratings if they do what they've outlined.
What is a prequel to STAR TREK without the elements that filled out those three years of 1960's television programming? ENT was too disconnected from even the series that supposedly takes place after it, little resemblance except for a ship with two nacelles and a saucer, and a Vulcan first officer. Hell, ENT might have been better if it were a submarine refitted for space travel with ONE nacelle and no saucer and manned by a completely human crew.
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"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here."
These are some great ideas. Coto knows what he's doing, and he could very well save this show. These sorts of episodes that he is proposing could very well start to bring back the Trek audience. A Vulcan Civil war is a wonderful idea to get Enterprise Vulcans to the Vulcans of TOS and TNG. Great stuff.
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Scientists discover the world that exists;
engineers create the world that never was.
-Theodore von Kármán
I recently read Shatner's Movie Memories (again) and something mentioned in this autobiography is some of the movie writers were given an already ~GOOD~ SCREENPLAY to do a rewrite.
The screenplay was good but needed a rewrite to be better.
However, several times when the screenwriter would return after "tweaking" someone else's screenplay it would no longer resemble the GOOD screenplay it was.
The writer was told to fix what was there, but instead he decided to create a whole new screenplay based on his own ideas.
Of course the producers were outraged and asked someone else to take the original screenplay to do a rewrite.
The outcome ... Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. The final writer took material already available and crafted it into an awesome movie.
My point being, when B&B decided to do a prequel it became obvious they wanted to make it their own. They forgot everything already established in treklore to produce ... Enterprise.
Maybe they wanted to make it "better" according to their ideals ... I don't know. But they seemed to have forgotten what Star Trek is. And they didn't want to have stories based on already established Star Trek history.
Coto seems to "get it". No one cared about the Xindi ... or some Cold War. There are plenty of stories to write about aliens we already know about, though some we've never met.
Maybe now we can meet them. See the Vulcan planet and other planets. Have more Andorians. Heck, give Archer an Orion slave girl for an episode ... I don't care as long as it is written well and based in the realm of Star Trek.
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Respect the cannon
I don't post often, but this seemed like a good place to put in my $0.02,
I am among the "disenchanted season 2, sorta turned season 3" people... I liked the way season 3 ended, I suffered through season 2, staying with it for no other reason than it was Star Trek...
As for season 4, I think it's looking up. I see a lot more touching TOS in this season than before.
I think Coto specifically says he isn't going to mention a date at all because it seems incongrous.
The problem with a date like 1996 is that only a small portion of the Trekkies are going to freak out about the Eugenics war taking place in that time. It would get wierd for the rest of the Trekkies and indeed the non-Trekkie viewership if the timelines began to diverge like that... so, that's not really a safe thing to do...
besides, it ruins one of the "illusions" of Star Trek that has been around since Roddenberry's time; it makes it no longer a tangible future one that you and I might experience...
I think that would be a far bigger crime to the franchise, personally... :)
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-I'll think of a good sig... honest I will!
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I think Coto specifically says he isn't going to mention a date at all because it seems incongrous.
The problem with a date like 1996 is that only a small portion of the Trekkies are going to freak out about the Eugenics war taking place in that time. It would get wierd for the rest of the Trekkies and indeed the non-Trekkie viewership if the timelines began to diverge like that... so, that's not really a safe thing to do...
besides, it ruins one of the "illusions" of Star Trek that has been around since Roddenberry's time; it makes it no longer a tangible future one that you and I might experience...
I think that would be a far bigger crime to the franchise, personally... :)
It would be the same deal if they ever wanted to explore something like V'Ger a little further. In which case, Voyager 6 supposedly was launched by now according to Star Trek facts. The only established date for the launch was when Decker said it was launched almost 200 hundred years before TMP. Then the Chronology books made a guess by saying it was launched by 1999, which is 5 years ago. They could always remedy something like that by clarifying that it was launched much later than Decker had believed.
Frankly I always loved the V'Ger story. Even if the movie was long and drawn out, V'Ger was still a neat idea. I liked it because it was pure sci-fi and very scientific. Would be cool to see more coverage on that, even if it's not on Enterprise. Would be cool to meet the race that built V'Ger, but according to established Trek, they're too far on the other side of the galaxy for Enterprise. Anyway, that's just pure wishful thinking. I doubt it will ever happen.
I'll take a wait and see on this one. I don't agree with a Vulcan civil war though, I think Surak ended that, but this is how they make T'Pol "relevant". To be honest I didn't even think not having the Eugenics wars in the '90s was a major mistake, but it isn't that hard to work it in, or to use Okuda's Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology as a guide. The "Heart of Darkness"/Apocalypse stuff sounds like what they planned for a TNG movie at some point. Just make Kirk Kirk and I'll be happy.
If being non-specific about the dates of the Eugenics Wars is the worst thing Coto is going to do to the Canon, no problem. It should be easy enough to gloss over the "past" and get on with the story. And who's to say that the repurcussions of the war didn't extend into Star Trek's 21st century anyway?
I am grateful that Coto at least recognizes there IS a Canon, and has the balls to address the issue straight up and say what's he going to do, rather than dancing around it.
The Vulcan thing could also be interesting. There are parallels with current rifts in Islam and Christianity involving fundamentalism and "returning to the true teachings" that could prove fruitful if handled correctly. The same applies to Eugenics (Hello Dolly?). As others here have stated, it's all in how it's handled, both in researching ST Canon, and in how parallels to current events.
Like the man says, this is the stuff that will make ENTERPRISE appointment viewing.
Screw the pessimists. Season 4 sounds like it's going to be a lot of fun.
Some people just like to complain I guess. I have no problem with how they are handling the Eugenics Wars. Not being specific about dates is a perfectly valid way to handle the Eugenics wars. He just doesn't want to state on TV that the wars happened in the 90s as that may confuse some viewers. Sure hard core trekies will not have a problem with it but what about those that do not know that the Eugenics Wars happened in the 90s? It's just a risk they don't want to take and really don't need to by leaving the dates up in the air. At this point if they lose one or two neilson boxes they are screwed.
I think Coto is the right man to have here. He clearly wants to try to undo some of the mistakes already made on the show and he wants to give us stories that tie into TOS and all other cannon material. If you are reading his comments as anything other than that, then you are reading them wrong.
I'm lovin' it! Looks like I have a reason to postpone my suicide now. Awesome, awesome ideas. We have a fanboy working on the show now! Only thing that bugs me is ending the TCW thing so soon. I wanted to learn more about future guy, etc. and I don't think they can explain all that drama and intrigue in 2 episodes.
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The higher, the fewer
If some of you would actually read these articles before yoy complain he is going out of his way not to give any information as to when the Wars take place. For the purpose of the episode they are doing they happened in "the past".
I knew I shouldn't have read this stuff when I'm having a crappy day. It puts me in an even more bitter mood.
The more I hear about the plans for season 4, the less enthused I'm getting about it. After reading the news that Berman and Braga are on the verge of turning Enterprise into "As the Galaxy Turns" by considering bringing William Shatner back as James T. Kirk (or, as Rick Berman, demonstrating his enormous talent for saying nothing while speaking, called it, "an incarnation of a 'Kirk'"...whatever the bloody hell that means), I became very unexcited about season 4's prospects for improvement. I had high hopes for Manny Coto, until he made this announcement about the Eugenics Wars. Who cares if it's 2004 and it hasn't happened in real life? There was no Edith Keeler in the 1940's that I'm aware of, does that mean "The City On The Edge of Forever" shouldn't have happened, either? What kind of logic is that? Star Trek is FICTION. Leave canon alone and keep the Eugenics Wars in the late 90's, where it belongs.
I will admit to being interested in their Vulcan civil war and Orion ideas. I think the idea of dissent within Vulcan society would go a long way toward appeasing fan angst over how the Vulcans have been portrayed on Enterprise up to now. Also, a spotlight on the Orions is long overdue, and I hope they're given the same kind of treatment we've seen toward the Andorians, rather than the token appearance treatment they've given the Tellarites and Tholians.
Truth be told, I'm FAR more enthused about Smallville's return than Enterprise's. I'm sure others have their problems with that show, but I enjoy it immensely. And, yes, even though their plan to bring in Lois Lane this year may seem like a stunt akin to Shatner's possible appearance on Enterprise, at least they're writing her into the storyline in a way that makes sense and has long-standing effects for the mythology, rather than using her appearance as a one-time bone-toss to keep the disgruntled fans tuning in.
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"What I really wanted to do this season is make the episodes that I as a STAR TREK fan would have to see," Coto told the site. "You know, as a fan of the original series, if I heard that they were doing the Orion slavers and the Eugenics Wars, I would have to be in front of that TV."
His comments on playing fast and loose with continuity aside, Coto's quote above has me pretty excited about Enterprise (I have not been excited about enterprise since 2001)
As Jadzia points out below, provided they do their homework on the Eugenics Wars and the Vulcan canon before they write theur stories, this could be a great season.
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"Commander, laws change, depending on who's making them. But justice, is justice" - Odo, "A Man Alone"
Interesting news that happpens in the middle of the night (at least in terms of us east coasters)... ;-)
I still don't understand this slippery slope that these guys have decided to go on in an attempt to bolster the era in which they chose to write in - one where they claimed little "supposedly" happened, but only if they were unfamiliar with what DID happen... ;-) But undoubtably there will be Trek fans who will consider this whole thing apocryphal at best and non-canon at worst. ;-)
Just as a note to some people who have posted in this thread:
1.) EUGENICS WARS- As Scorned has noted, this show, as so many love to say, is ficitional. Many of the events in it are ficitional INCLUDING the so-called "Eugenics Wars". So this thing about it not having occurred in "real life" is a non sequitur. Ie., as many are wont to say, "Who cares?". Why change it to some later time because it "didn't happen" for real? Just leave it.
TOS "Space Seed" was a dramatic episode involving a man who per the history that is recited during this ep, whether by Spock or the resident historian, Marla McGivers (who essentially becomes enamored with and falls in love with Khan), essentially takes over an area of the world that includes Asia and the Middle East, NOT North America.
2.) THE 1990s - Supposed "lack of mention" of the events of Khan - where people refer back to VOY "Future's End I & II", but manage to also miss TNG "The Neutral Zone", where we meet cryogenically frozen people from - the 1990s, not unlike the suspended animation sleeper from the 1990s that Khan and his group were found in. Imagine that.
But in response, I will ask you to note that right now, there are WARS going on around the world - in Sierra Leone/Liberia, in parts of South America, in the newly liberated countries bordering the south of Russia, and obviously in the Middle East, where people elsewhere in the world, go on about their business... When Hitler was invading country after country, it DIDN'T impact the then "isolationalist" U.S. and people generally went on about their business, NOT INVOLVED until such time that Japan attacked a territory that the U.S. had soldiers stationed at, thus bringing the U.S. into that war.
So it's silly that there has been this obsession with this current group, to lock on to and keep attempting to tie the fictional Eugenics Wars to a WW III, thus demanding world-wide knowledge of these events rather than these events being regional in nature as the Eugenics Wars OBVIOUSLY were per the episode TOS "Space Seed".
3.) VULCANS - I'm trying to fathom what it is they are trying to do here although it wouldn't be out of the question to indicate periods of discontent within the Vulcan society with respect to questioning the implementation of rituals and behavior related to Surak's writings and questioning all the philosophers who have apparently interpreted these writings to develop what we see of this society.
My problem is that this CAN be interesting but ONLY IF the person doing the developing of this takes the time to research it AND have the analogy MAKE SENSE.
4.) ORIONS - these folks are LONG OVERDUE. And like the hints about the Tellarites, they need to go beyond superficial silliness with Orions and make them a 3-dimensional, fully fleshed out group on this show. And that is because they are a powerful powerful influence on events of this timeframe's future, wielding much influence even through to the 24th century (assuming like I do, the "Orion Syndicate" is indeed related to these folks, employing species from all over to participate in their shady dealings).
As a final footnote for now - as I have noted in a number of threads, the year "2151" was around the time of the formation of the "United Earth" government, and it would behoove the showrunners to take a look at that.
And from above:
"CBS and UPN chief Leslie Moonves admits that ENTERPRISE was saved by a lower license fee. But he says although UPN's success is a top priority, he'd like to see ENTERPRISE continue beyond season four.
"[Moving to Friday] is a much better strategy. I think we'll do a much better number there with that show, and perhaps it can live for a number of years. We hope so."
As I noted to another poster in the News Item that precedes this one, Moonves can huff and puff and threaten to blow the house down, but he is no fool and neither is his boss, Sumner Redstone, who runs Viacom, which OWNS CBS, UPN, and Paramount, among many media things. And they will NOT bite the hand that feeds them, particularly when it is to their benefit as "advertising" for the Trek franchise that goes beyond a TV series or any film, and includes the Viacom-owned Simon and Schuster/Pocketbooks Trek novels, the games, merchandise, DVD sales from Paramount Home Video, the theme parks, etc.
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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3.) VULCANS - I'm trying to fathom what it is they are trying to do here although it wouldn't be out of the question to indicate periods of discontent within the Vulcan society with respect to questioning the implementation of rituals and behavior related to Surak's writings and questioning all the philosophers who have apparently interpreted these writings to develop what we see of this society.
You mean, you have no problem with this? I talked about this idea a couple of months ago and you didn't like it.
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"Take a Romulan chill pill and have some faith!"
-Erik Jendresen, writer of Star Trek: The Beginning
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-General George S. Patton Jr.
"I am NOT Scorned."
-Scorned as Gage/Gage_2
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You mean, you have no problem with this? I talked about this idea a couple of months ago and you didn't like it.
It's not that I have no problem with it, it's that I have a problem with past practices where nearly everything with respect to Vulcans has been completely out of kilter and inconsistent in this show.
I have a few canon sources that I want to investigate that might offer the opening for a possible plausible way to do this and I may even do a thread on it. But I want to double check some things first.
But the MAIN issue that YOU need to consider is this - With all this sudden focus on and fleshing out of 22nd century Vulcans that seems to be occuring from a totally bizarre direction, one MUST MUST be MINDFUL of their story-telling role.
It's one thing going around adding things here and there and speculating... and another thing doing so WHILE maintaining them in the role of a 3rd party contrast commentator species. And everytime people do the former, the latter then goes by the wayside. And if people leave out the latter, then you can kiss this species and its powerful role goodbye.
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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Y'know...
I reread the article in question a few times, and at no time does Manny Coto ever say that they're changing the fictional date of the Eugenics Wars. He only points out the fact that in reality, they didn't happen the way they were described in Trek.
My take on what he said was that he was going to approach this by noting merely that they happened "in the past" relative to "Enterprise", and not really worrying about it beyond that. It seems that he's taking a fairly smart approach to it, walking the line between the folks on one side who worry about every line (and let there be no mistake: I treat Trek as a completely alternate universe to our own, and consider the Eugenics Wars to have happened in the 1990s, too ;) ) and the mainstream viewers who have no clue about "Space Seed" and would get confused about a reference to a war that never occurred in our real past.
He certainly never said he was going to change the date, at least not in the article as posted.
Best,
Alex
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Y'know...
I reread the article in question a few times, and at no time does Manny Coto ever say that they're changing the fictional date of the Eugenics Wars. He only points out the fact that in reality, they didn't happen the way they were described in Trek.
Y'know...
You need to rewatch ENT "Hatchery" and listen carefully to Archer's recitation about WHO in his family "fought in the Eugenics Wars", calculate it BACK based on his reference, and try again about WHEN ENT has moved this War to. ;)
Don't believe their hype, WATCH what they have DONE and be cognizant about what they might do.
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My take on what he said was that he was going to approach this by noting merely that they happened "in the past" relative to "Enterprise", and not really worrying about it beyond that.
Sorry, but it HAS already been referenced by our dear Captain Archer.
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It seems that he's taking a fairly smart approach to it, walking the line between the folks on one side who worry about every line (and let there be no mistake: I treat Trek as a completely alternate universe to our own, and consider the Eugenics Wars to have happened in the 1990s, too ;) ) and the mainstream viewers who have no clue about "Space Seed" and would get confused about a reference to a war that never occurred in our real past.
I'm afraid that the "mainstream viewers" aren't watching ENT. If they were, the show would have the ratings that TNG had. ;-) So anything to do with ENT is totally irrelevent to "the mainstream". ;-)
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He certainly never said he was going to change the date, at least not in the article as posted.
Don't listen to what they "say" because much of what they have "said" in the past has turned out to be bullshit. Case in point is when Berman "said" that Archer "would face consequences of his actions" and then he "said" there would be a ship "mutiny". Yet when you watch the subject ep that he was referencing - ie., ENT "Hatchery", yes there is a mutiny, but ONLY because Archer has been impacted by some plot device "venom" or whatever sprayed in his face by Xindi Insectoid infants. And thus his bizarre "behavior" in that one episode had the "consequences" of a "mutiny", but became a reset at the end and had nothing to do with him possibly facing "consequences" for air-locking people and so forth.
All one needs to do is WATCH what they write for the characters to say and do. THAT is the bottom line.
Another case in point being ENT "Proving Ground", credited to Chris Black that re-aired here last night, and the fascinating "checklist" of "bandaid" items that were added as part of the character dialog to correct MANY MANY of the criticisms that I and others have posted on this board. And it is somewhat scary to see this type of interactive TV, but it happens. ;-) And I think that ENT "Proving Ground", aside from the commanding presence of a Jeffrey Combs as Shran, has gotten many kudos because it also addressed so many things... "Human things"... that were just left by the wayside in earlier eps, things that HAVE to impact our continuing characters at some point. And the delay in getting some of this stuff onscreen caused some criticisms against that ep - mainly because the stuff seemed to come out of nowhere and was acknowledged as being long overdue. But at least the stuff WAS there.
As they say, better late than never but better never late. ;-)
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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You need to rewatch ENT "Hatchery" and listen carefully to Archer's recitation about WHO in his family "fought in the Eugenics Wars", calculate it BACK based on his reference, and try again about WHEN ENT has moved this War to. ;)
Jadiza, I'm sorry but that's irrelevant. I've said many times before, that it is possible for Archer's great grandfather to have fought in the Eugenics Wars in the early 90's.
Robert Archer: 1970-2039; 45 years old when Donald was born
Donald Archer: 2015-2091; 59 years old when Henry was born
Henry Archer: 2074-2120's/30's; 30 years old when Jonathan was born
Jonathan Archer: 2104-2196(?); 60 years old when Charles was born(?)
It's not out of the question. My dad was 45 when I was born. If I had a child at 45, and he has a child at 45, then my grandson at 45 (2120) could say that his great-grandfather fought in Vietnam (1965). That is a spand of 155 years from the time when my dad fought in Vietnam to my grandson is commanding a ship at 45. For Archer and his great-grandfather, it's just a spand of 158 years. That's just a three-year difference. So as I've mention many times before, it is possible for Archer's great grandfather to have fought in the Eugenics Wars in the early 90's.
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"Take a Romulan chill pill and have some faith!"
-Erik Jendresen, writer of Star Trek: The Beginning
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-General George S. Patton Jr.
"I am NOT Scorned."
-Scorned as Gage/Gage_2
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Jadiza, I'm sorry but that's irrelevant. I've said many times before, that it is possible for Archer's great grandfather to have fought in the Eugenics Wars in the early 90's.
Robert Archer: 1970-2039; 45 years old when Donald was born
Donald Archer: 2015-2091; 59 years old when Henry was born
Henry Archer: 2074-2120's/30's; 30 years old when Jonathan was born
Jonathan Archer: 2104-2196(?); 60 years old when Charles was born(?)
I know what you put out there as pure speculation and it is really really pushing it from the plausibility standpoint. Seriously. For one generation no problem whatsoever, but for several generations, it just doesn't fly that well.
Just my comment. :-)
I mean, I do encourage folks to keep on keeping on, especially those interested in writing fan fiction like yourself - and when someone does so, especially something that is beyond a chapter's worth of pages long and upwards of 100 pages or more as I have done twice now, it's a pretty intense and frustrating but also rewarding experience.
However, just like the critique I'm giving your ideas, so too did I have critiques - well over 400 of them before I stopped counting, when I did mine 10 years ago.
So take it from the standpoint of plausibility and believability AND most importantly, what they have consistently done in the past with respect to a disrespect for canon and consistency AND continuity.
What you might want to consider doing is going here and taking a look at what's there. I know now with the web, there are probably a ton of sites that have stuff like this. But before the web, there was THAT.
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It's not out of the question. My dad was 45 when I was born. If I had a child at 45, and he has a child at 45, then my grandson at 45 (2120) could say that his great-grandfather fought in Vietnam (1965). That is a spand of 155 years from the time when my dad fought in Vietnam to my grandson is commanding a ship at 45. For Archer and his great-grandfather, it's just a spand of 158 years. That's just a three-year difference. So as I've mention many times before, it is possible for Archer's great grandfather to have fought in the Eugenics Wars in the early 90's.
But again - you're missing a couple of things that have been revealed to us over the past couple days and over the years:
1.) Ron Moore admits to the 100-year boo boo to DS9 "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?"
2.) Despite this, a decision was made to go with that "new" year
3.) It was also mentioned that "there was no Eugenics War in the (real) 1990s so who cares if it gets moved to (our current) future".
So YES, they are essentially rejecting TOS "Space Seed" as they have rejected and "re-imagined" much of TOS of late... whether it be what happened in TOS "Balance of Terror" (and the Romulan Cloak) or TOS "Amok Time" (and Vulcan Pon Farr) or TOS "The Trouble With Tribbles" (and the introduction of Tribbles in ENT's time). And I won't even get into the TNG eps. ;-)
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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I don't see what all this ballyhoo is about. DS9's mistake is irrelevant. It never happened. ENT said Archer's great-great-grandfather fought in the EW. According to this possible family tree...
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Robert Archer: 1970-2039; 45 years old when Donald was born
Donald Archer: 2015-2091; 59 years old when Henry was born
Henry Archer: 2074-2120's/30's; 30 years old when Jonathan was born
Jonathan Archer: 2104-2196(?); 60 years old when Charles was born(?)
...it looks to me like the EW could easily occur in the 1990s per TOS and Archer's comment fits perfectly. What is the problem here?
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It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
Halen. "The Dream is Over."
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I don't see what all this ballyhoo is about. DS9's mistake is irrelevant. It never happened.
LOL
Come on Steve. 
(who woulda thunk you would negate your beloved DS9... ;-))
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...it looks to me like the EW could easily occur in the 1990s per TOS and Archer's comment fits perfectly. What is the problem here?
Well TOS says that it's then. But Archer's comments beg plausibility. Of course now Sussman's take is that there WERE those elder baby-makers in Archer's family history, which would place the one he noted in ENT "Hatchery" back that far...
Therefore, if THIS is to be part of their "bible" for this character, then so be it.
But I am sure that you realize that building up to this point, there have been some fast and loose playing with these events and it seems to me that it would be best for ENT to help settle this once and for all. Particularly since, IMHO, having 2 separate events makes for MORE story-telling possibilities - whether these happen onscreen or in the novels (although with the novels not canon but STILL part and parcel of the Trek franchise and in Viacom's best interest for the long run with respect to the longevity of the brand).
The sky is the limit if they set some plausible backstory here, which can lead to a series of novels, not unlike the "Lost Era" series, etc. ;-)
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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Of course now Sussman's take is that there WERE those elder baby-makers in Archer's family history, which would place the one he noted in ENT "Hatchery" back that far...
Well, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that the average age where parents start having children is older with each new generation. Plus, there's no limit to how many children one could have. Donald could have been Robert's 3rd child, and Henry could have been Donald's 5th. That's what I love about the Star Trek universe, there's room to make personal additions to established canon, like what I've been trying to do with the Romulan Wars.
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"Take a Romulan chill pill and have some faith!"
-Erik Jendresen, writer of Star Trek: The Beginning
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
-General George S. Patton Jr.
"I am NOT Scorned."
-Scorned as Gage/Gage_2
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Quote:
Well, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that the average age where parents start having children is older with each new generation.
Um... do you have any statistics to back this up? Considering all this hullaboo about "teenage parents" and going around with Public Affairs programming begging young people to abstain or young men to "use a condom" or whatever? And especially now that the stigma of "BASTARD", where such was once stamped on the birth certificates of children born out-of-wedlock, has essentially gone away within the U.S. society (at least in many locations).
There is some recent increase in the age of child-bearing to some degree due to the life span increases and the overall economic circumstances within specific societies, as well as whether that society has shifted from agricultural to industrial.
But overall, when you look around the world, people in many many countries are still popping out the babies at a young age.
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Plus, there's no limit to how many children one could have.
Wow. Are you a woman who plans on giving birth or are you referring to what we women call a "Gigolo", who goes around like a dog and drops his semen in anything that has a hole?
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Donald could have been Robert's 3rd child, and Henry could have been Donald's 5th. That's what I love about the Star Trek universe, there's room to make personal additions to established canon, like what I've been trying to do with the Romulan Wars.
I have no problem with "adding" to the established canon. That makes the addition "canon" itself.
However I DO have a problem with playing fast and loose with the canon, actually taking a canon reference and "turning things on their ear" for whatever personal reason this is being done for. And I also have a problem with implausible additions to canon that result in negating the events of the future as well as making those future people appear as idiots for not knowing what had been done in the past... despite their wonderful computer databases.
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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and the fascinating "checklist" of "bandaid" items that were added as part of the character dialog to correct MANY MANY of the criticisms that I and others have posted on this board. And it is somewhat scary to see this type of interactive TV, but it happens
My my, how we like to flatter ourselves. Beware the black hole that is vanity.
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My my, how we like to flatter ourselves. Beware the black hole that is vanity.
Flattery doesn't matter. What DOES matter is that the deed was done and it was called "Proving Ground" and it was done again, and it was called "The Forgotten". ;-)
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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Quote from AlexR to Jadzia-Dax:
I reread the article in question a few times, and at no time does Manny Coto ever say that they're changing the fictional date of the Eugenics Wars.
You're correct. Steve Krutzler's interpretation of Coto's interview inserts a spin that's causing some misunderstanding here. Steve reports, "He says the new stories operate on the assumption that they occurred not in the 1990s", which implies some other timeframe. What Coto actually implies is that he's not going to touch upon a specific timeframe at all: "I'm not dealing with it. There's no point. They were in the 1990s because the old series ran in 1966 and that was the future then. Clearly, we're in 2004, and there haven't been any Eugenics Wars that I know about! So, simply, the Eugenics Wars 'happened' — they happened in the past [relative to the current show]. I don't know how else to do it."
Coto's story should be able to avoid timeframe specifics.
Of course, we TOS fans may wonder about how Spock's research in Space Seed didn't unearth a record of Archer's "adventure" with rogue supermen from Khan's time. ;-)
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Shatner says he has penned Kirk's return
But I'm kind of miffed that they are messing with the date of the Eugenics Wars. Space Seed established it was the 1990's. Wrath of Khan established Khan was a 20th century man.
So our history doesn't have a eugenics wars? Newsflash: Star Trek is fiction.
Did anybody actually see Captain James T Kirk walking around San Fransico in 1986? Did a whaler ship report a giant spaceship decloaking in front of them? Did anyone notice the disappearance of two humpback whales?
Nope.
Vulcans were never seen visiting Carbon Creek in the 1950's so I think that the date should be changed to somewhere in the 21st century.
In the Star Trek universe, the eugenics wars occured in the 90's.
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"Men don't use sex to get what they want. Sex IS what they want" - Frasier
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See, I kind of diagree. I know ST is fiction, but I think it is supposed to be fiction about OUR future. It's nice to pretend ST COULD happen. Now, I'd be okay with Jadzia's idea of saying the Eugenics Wars happened in the Middle East (say, during Desert Storm), but without our knowledge. Maybe Khan was a leadear of a SECRET empire, pulling strings in the middle east? I know Khan was supposed to come from about 1992, but Spock also said "our records from that time are incomplete," or something to that effect. I know some Eugenics novels came out (that are about to be de-canonized) that apparently explained the problem of a 1992 war that never happened (apparently) in our real world. I'll read them at some point. If they have to say Spock messed up a year because he was deep in thought...well, in order to preserve ST as our possible future, I could live with that lapse in chronology. I don't think of ST as an alternate universe or a fictional universe. I prefer to think of it as fiction about our world, and I think Gene R did, too. He would never have picked 1990s as a date for disaster if he knew the franchise would still be around at that point.
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Most of this sounds pretty exciting. It's going to be great to have Spiner on the show because he's an interesting actor. The Kirk story will probably have to do with the Nexus, don't you think?
I love the fact that they're addressing the terrible screw-up regarding Vulcan behaviour by turning it into a story. I don't see why the Andorians have to be in those episodes too. Sounds like another "Redemption" / "Unification" type of thing. I'd concentrate on what's important and not build alien threats into everything. Vulcan is interesting enough.
May I remind some people that The Eugenic Wars were already not happening in the 1990's when they didn't feature them in Voyager's time travel two-parter "Future's End", which was set in 1996. However, I'd prefer if they *kept on not mentioning* them, and certainly not if they dealt with them. They're a stupid, unlikely idea, developed for a single episode. If they deal with them, they should mix them them with World War Three, which was established to have happened sometime in the 21st century (see "First Contact").
Kudos for getting rid of the Temporal Cold War.
Jan S.
Quote:"On the issue of the Eugenics Wars timeframe, Coto freely admits that ENTERPRISE has played a little fast and loose with their supposed date. He says the new stories operate on the assumption that they occurred not in the 1990s -- as "Space Seed" established.
Quote:"Clearly, we're in 2004, and there haven't been any Eugenics Wars that I know about! So, simply, the Eugenics Wars 'happened' �" they happened in the past [relative to the current show]. I don't know how else to do it."
What is this BULLSHIT!!! A great episode of TOS screwed around with. Gene L. Coon and Carey Wilbur both came up with a great idea that just got screwed with. The Eugenics wars happened in the late 1990's. IT IS ESTABLISHED TREK! The outline of the episode goes as follows.."As the Enterprise proceeds to Starbase 12 in the Gamma 400 star system, historian McGivers falls in love with the leader (who is discovered to be Khan Noonien Singh). Khan makes a miraculous recovery, and holds Bones at scalpel-point to find out where he is. Khan and his crew are products of the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s. In 1993, a group of supermen simultaneously seized power in more than 40 nations. "
Star Trek does NOT follow the real world directly! Who the hell does Coto think he is just "disregarding" ESTABLISHED TOS TREK? Coto is a moron and I think he is going to try and rip off everything from STII. He is already showing signs of being "Mini-Berman and Braga". I think they are spending way to much time in the "writers room". Memo to Coto: It is called "CONTINUITY" STICK WITH IT!!! Of course I know there will be some of you with the lazy attitude of "as long as it is good" excuse. But some of us were paying attention unlike Coto and B&B who obviously didn't set Coto straight.
In the episode Spock reveals to Kirk that his research has determined that that there were 80-90 supermen unaccounted for at the end of the war. Coto had a pretty good idea to tie in the missing Supermen but then blew it!
Quote:" "What I really wanted to do this season is make the episodes that I as a STAR TREK fan would have to see," Coto told the site."
Obviously he is watching different Trek then the rest of us because the Eugenics wars took place in the late 1990's!!
Quote:""We haven't settled on any one identity yet. It's still a question mark. The Temporal Cold War may resolve without Future Guy's identity being revealed.""
Well that just shows you that this TCW idea was garbage and that they had no real plans of doing anything constructive with it. If you don't see who the FG is then that leaves the audience wondering who the hell was behind it in the first place. They should of NEVER of done this TCW idea. It was poor idea, poorly executed and went no where. Its overall importance is minor seeing how it will suddenly be resolved by the third episode. Chalk up another "bonehead" idea for B&B. Almost right next to "Threshold" from VOY.
Quote:""We so badly want it to happen, but it's so early that I don't really have much to say about it," he says. "There's interest on both ends, but Bill is on a different series [BOSTON LEGAL], and we're just starting our season, and so much has to be done before it actually happens. We all have our fingers crossed."
Message to Braga...GET IT DONE IDIOT!
Quote:"We're very aggressive in 'stunt casting' this year, which I think will also bring in some viewers," she says
Are they going to make Enterprise the "Love Boat for the year 2004"? You can't have "special guests" every week. Are we going to see Isaac making drinks in the mess hall? Captain Stubing telling Captain Archer how to drive?
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You may also recall Spock saying that records from that period in history are fragmentary. Who is to say that there wasn't a period of great uprising beginning in the late 20th century (say, around the time of Vietnam) and continuing into the middle of the 21st century, progressing into the Eugenics Wars and climaxing with WW III? I'd be willing to bet that any sort of records like those would have been lost, redacted, or otherwise revised to reflect history in the eyes of the victors. For pete's sake, the records from 9/11 are incomplete! And getting moreso, if the news regarding Sandy Berger is accurate. So if records regarding one event are incomplete, why couldn't the records from an entire era? Maybe Starfleet and the united Earth government simply took a stab at the dates, since hard evidence didn't exist. (Granted, it's a stretch, but hey, it's fiction, right?) And in a nuclear conflagaration such as WW III, many historical documents (and people with more reliable memories) would be lost. So it's not outside the realm of possibility to assume that the dates of the Eugenics Wars are, shall we say, flexible.
Coto admits they've played loose and fast with continuity from the other series. Okay, fine. Let's see what they do with this idea, instead of automatically consigning it to the scrap pile because it doesn't jibe with "continuity." Let's face it, the "Star Trek Chronology" (itself a work of fiction) is not written in granite. And the so-called "History of the Future" is always a work in progress. Let it go, and focus on the other major problems with the show, like the lack of drama and believable characters that the viewers care about.
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A generation which ignores history has no past and no future. -- Robert Heinlein
PCLinuxOS
falcon
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What is this BULLSHIT!!! A great episode of TOS screwed around with. Gene L. Coon and Carey Wilbur both came up with a great idea that just got screwed with. The Eugenics wars happened in the late 1990's. IT IS ESTABLISHED TREK! The outline of the episode goes as follows.."As the Enterprise proceeds to Starbase 12 in the Gamma 400 star system, historian McGivers falls in love with the leader (who is discovered to be Khan Noonien Singh). Khan makes a miraculous recovery, and holds Bones at scalpel-point to find out where he is. Khan and his crew are products of the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s. In 1993, a group of supermen simultaneously seized power in more than 40 nations. "
Star Trek does NOT follow the real world directly! Who the hell does Coto think he is just "disregarding" ESTABLISHED TOS TREK? Coto is a moron and I think he is going to try and rip off everything from STII. He is already showing signs of being "Mini-Berman and Braga". I think they are spending way to much time in the "writers room". Memo to Coto: It is called "CONTINUITY" STICK WITH IT!!! Of course I know there will be some of you with the lazy attitude of "as long as it is good" excuse. But some of us were paying attention unlike Coto and B&B who obviously didn't set Coto straight.
You really are an ass, a great writer as Coto is having a go at fixing the IDIOCY of the TOS writers, Where we live is the Star Trek universe so Tos made the biggest continuity flub of all time, a smart idea would to have the eugenics wars happen 80 years after the show that way anyone who watched it would be dead.
The rest of his news also seems very promising and I lokk forward to it.
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Hoshi: I was hoping you'd put up a fight.
T'Pol: I'm surprised you're not exhausted from all the beds, you've jumped into, recently.
"In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II"
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Quote:"You really are an ass,
WHY because I pointed out a hard truth that you are unable to swallow? I think the only ass here is you for being this stupid to see established Trek getted walked over. If you got something to say then "rip apart what I wrote". Give me some kind of reason or explaination. You gave me nothing but crap. So in my opinion your comments here are worthless. Come back and respond when you think you have something intelligent to say!
Quote:"a great writer as Coto is having a go at fixing the IDIOCY of the TOS writers,
Is this a joke? You really are an idiot. I will be glad when people (aka pseudo fans) like you are GONE!
First off Coto is NOT a great writer. He has had mediocre episodes. His other series did NOT last one season. So don't start the "I love Coto fan club". If he was so great his other series would NOT of tanked and he would write Trek episode WITHIN established parameters.
TOS writers are idiots? Well if it wasn't for them you would not even have the idea of the Eugenics wars. It is very clear you are one of these idiots who complains that TOS has bad special effects etc. It was made over 35 years ago and you are applying todays technology to it. You are a complete idiot.
Quote:"Where we live is the Star Trek universe so Tos made the biggest continuity flub of all time, a smart idea would to have the eugenics wars happen 80 years after the show that way anyone who watched it would be dead."
This makes NO sense what so ever!
Again I see that I point out a hard truth and the "idiot" fans come out of the woodwork bashing me for PROVIDING an ESTABLISHED truth. You can sit back and say "I don't care" but don't get upset when the episodes are shit or don't fit together. You support lazy writing and that is what you will get.
Once again, Dax is one of the true blue that gets it.
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You really are an ass, a great writer as Coto is having a go at fixing the IDIOCY of the TOS writers, Where we live is the Star Trek universe so Tos made the biggest continuity flub of all time, a smart idea would to have the eugenics wars happen 80 years after the show that way anyone who watched it would be dead.
What? You can't be serious with what you just wrote.
Please tell me you are joking because if you are, this is a riot. ;-)
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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I vaguely remember a DS9 episode (one involving Dr. Bashir and some other genetically engineered individuals) talkings about the Eugenics war - and mentioning a date later than the one established in TOS...nobody had a hissy fit then!
Anyways, I really don't think it is a huge deal to change the date of the Eugenics war - honestly an actual date doesn't need to be set even. Saying something as simple as it happened in the early 21st century would suffice.
Star Trek obviously does not parallel our real world exactly, but it is supposed to be a possible future for this world as opposed to just a crazy sci-fi universe. With that in mind, trying to keep established Trek history intune with real world history to some extent, makes a lot of sense.
Really, there is absolutely no reason to freak out this much - if Coto and B&B decided to change what the Eugenics War was, etc. tehn I could understand...but simply moving the date back to jibe with our history is perfectly okay with me.
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“People who are willing to give up their liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
-Benjamin Franklin
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Quote:"Really, there is absolutely no reason to freak out this much - if Coto and B&B decided to change what the Eugenics War was, etc. tehn I could understand...but simply moving the date back to jibe with our history is perfectly okay with me."
With that attitude, it is clear who is real fan and who is not (you!).
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I vaguely remember a DS9 episode (one involving Dr. Bashir and some other genetically engineered individuals) talkings about the Eugenics war - and mentioning a date later than the one established in TOS...nobody had a hissy fit then!
In DS9 "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?"
But who the hell is "nobody"? Were YOU on the internet then, in 1997, let alone on a Star Trek discussion site, whether web or USENET, to even know what the hell you are talking about? People have been complaining about THAT YATI for some time. And now that ENT has made things worse with Archer's revelation in ENT "Hatchery" (that people around here keep trying to justify), rather than correcting the record, makes it all the more idiotic and once again, goes towards dissing yet another very popular TOS episode - this time, TOS "Space Seed".
That DS9 ep related to the revelation about Bashir having been "genetically enhanced", after a thorough evaluation and examination of him as a future model for the next generation of "EMH", but one to be considered a "long term" ("LMH") vs a "short term" or "emergency" model like the VOY EMH. And of course this plot could be directly analogized to the causes and events of the earlier Eugenics Wars, with its genetically enhanced "super Humans" (like Khan)... Leading to WHY the practice was ILLEGAL (and thus WHY his parents were about to go to prison for this).
And this ep underscored the Federation policy for dealing with those who do this sort of thing to get around the rules. The reason being (well - the "message" that the writers were putting out there) that one could see the negative consequences that such genetic manipulation can bring about such as what occurred at "Darwin Station", home to the genetically enhanced children in TNG "Unnatural Selection", who carried a virus that causes anyone exposed to it to rapidly age.
And even the "great" Ron Moore, who WROTE the friggin' DS9 faux pas episode, acknowledged the mistake, given that this episode became a pivotal plot device character development for Bashir, which carried over for the rest of the series and greatly impacted his relationship with Garak.
And I think alot of these "mistakes" (such as this one) have to do with people getting confused trying to mix the different date terminologies in order to calculate dates ahead or back.
Ie., mixing the 2-digit "century" designation WITH the 4-digit "millennial" designation and forgetting that "20th century" = 1990s and NOT "2000s" and "24th century" = 2300s, NOT "2400s", etc.
BTW - Read this.
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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But who the hell is "nobody"? Were YOU on the internet then, in 1997, let alone on a Star Trek discussion site, whether web or USENET, to even know what the hell you are talking about?
Actually, yes I was. Don't jump to conclusions just because I'm younger than you...I thought we had covered this lesson already...but apparently it is quite difficult to teach an old dog new tricks. I didn't follow discussions that "religiously" back then...so obviously there are some thing I missed. So I apologize - no need to get upset about it.
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And now that ENT has made things worse with Archer's revelation in ENT "Hatchery" (that people around here keep trying to justify), rather than correcting the record, makes it all the more idiotic and once again, goes towards dissing yet another very popular TOS episode - this time, TOS "Space Seed."
What revelation???
And what was the point of you rambling on for two paragraphs about the actual episode...were you even trying to make a point or just flew your Star Trek mental muscle to try and impress people?
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And even the "great" Ron Moore, who WROTE the friggin' DS9 faux pas episode, acknowledged the mistake, given that this episode became a pivotal plot device character development for Bashir, which carried over for the rest of the series and greatly impacted his relationship with Garak.
Go Ron Moore - but did this "change" of date fundamentally change anything in Star Trek...nope, not so much.
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And I think alot of these "mistakes" (such as this one) have to do with people getting confused trying to mix the different date terminologies in order to calculate dates ahead or back.
Ie., mixing the 2-digit "century" designation WITH the 4-digit "millennial" designation and forgetting that "20th century" = 1990s and NOT "2000s" and "24th century" = 2300s, NOT "2400s", etc.
I highly doubt that, people aren't quite that stupid...and considering that the actual date (well year) of the Eugenics War was mentioned in Space Seed (1993), getting that date confused with 2093 or something would be amusing at the least, and completely moronic at the most.
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“People who are willing to give up their liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
-Benjamin Franklin
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Quote:
Quote:But who the hell is "nobody"? Were YOU on the internet then, in 1997, let alone on a Star Trek discussion site, whether web or USENET, to even know what the hell you are talking about?
Actually, yes I was. Don't jump to conclusions just because I'm younger than you...
It's not a matter of "jumping to conclusions". It's a matter of responding to your flippant, arrogant, and ultimately incorrect comment about what has been discussed in the fandom with respect to what happened in DS9 "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?". ;-)
And the thing is, you didn't even bother to move your apparently broken fingers over the keys on your keyboard at a search engine to at least check to see if what you "thought" was even true or not.
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I thought we had covered this lesson already...but apparently it is quite difficult to teach an old dog new tricks. I didn't follow discussions that "religiously" back then...so obviously there are some thing I missed. So I apologize - no need to get upset about it.
Methinks you need to check your attitude at the door and take a little time to think before you write because you thought what you wrote was quite clever, and I'm afraid it wasn't. ;-)
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Quote:And now that ENT has made things worse with Archer's revelation in ENT "Hatchery" (that people around here keep trying to justify), rather than correcting the record, makes it all the more idiotic and once again, goes towards dissing yet another very popular TOS episode - this time, TOS "Space Seed."
What revelation???
LOL
The episode should be re-airing not long from now. Go watch it when it does.
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And what was the point of you rambling on for two paragraphs about the actual episode...were you even trying to make a point or just flew your Star Trek mental muscle to try and impress people?
No, YOU of all people who claim to be a "fan" of this show, seem to have a brain like a sieve when it comes to it.
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Quote:And even the "great" Ron Moore, who WROTE the friggin' DS9 faux pas episode, acknowledged the mistake, given that this episode became a pivotal plot device character development for Bashir, which carried over for the rest of the series and greatly impacted his relationship with Garak.
Go Ron Moore - but did this "change" of date fundamentally change anything in Star Trek...nope, not so much.
It sure did. Because over time, TOS had pretty much established 2 separate events. And these events were solidified in TNG. And the implication here is that the 2 events were but 1 and THAT is a "change".
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I highly doubt that, people aren't quite that stupid...
I don't know why not. When you have 26 episodes to crank out in a season - which is why most cable shows only do 13 and also why they finally bowed to doing 22 this coming season (and had even dropped down to 24 this past season).
And since it was recently reported here on this site that ENT had one of the best records on getting scripts in "on time", what that meant says nothing about the quality of those scripts that got submitted for production. ;-) It's just that they weren't submitted "late". ;-)
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and considering that the actual date (well year) of the Eugenics War was mentioned in Space Seed (1993), getting that date confused with 2093 or something would be amusing at the least, and completely moronic at the most.
Well, then you just called the great and powerful Ron Moore a moron because THAT is EXACTLY what he did. ;-) Since he admitted the mistake, I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. But you didn't even bother. LOL
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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You know one of these days I'll have the will power to no longer reply to these posts...and to no longer visit these superficial and absurd discussion board. Until that point, here we go, again...
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It's not a matter of "jumping to conclusions". It's a matter of responding to your flippant, arrogant, and ultimately incorrect comment about what has been discussed in the fandom with respect to what happened in DS9 "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?". ;-)
And the thing is, you didn't even bother to move your apparently broken fingers over the keys on your keyboard at a search engine to at least check to see if what you "thought" was even true or not.
My comment was neither flippant nor arrogant...I thought wrong. So I didn't do research on the damn subject. This is a discussion board, not a fucking college class were every little detail needs to be accounted for and documented. Do you seriously live such a superficial and meaningless life that you get pleasure from insulting people for a rather benign mistake. I would think, you of all people, with sucha vast knowledge and understanding of Star Trek would realize that these "discussions" are nothing but pedantic babbling by people who claim to know more than they really do. Apparently you are no better than anyone else on this board to realize that all the arguments that go on, all the bickering back and forth, all the complaints about B&B...everything is just stupid and meaningless. Have we forgotten how to let ourselves enjoy life. Have we lost so much meaning in our universe that we must find it by means of arguing of a fucking TV show. You know what...I did just gain the will...I'm sick of the superficial bull shit that goes on here. Once you and everyone else can suddenly start talking about meaningful stuff in regards to Star Trek (and I mean some of philosophies of the ideas that have been portrayed in the franchise for 35+ years) rather than argue over such a mundane detail as a date - invite me back, because I'd love to be a part of that.
Until that point, search for a deeper meaning in you life, you, I, and most other people in this world desparately need it.
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“People who are willing to give up their liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
-Benjamin Franklin
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Quote:
You know one of these days I'll have the will power to no longer reply to these posts...
Nahh... consider it practice. One day you may get married and will have some juicy arguments with your wife. ;-)
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and to no longer visit these superficial and absurd discussion board. Until that point, here we go, again...
No... it's not superficial. Gosh there are so many many different types of discussion boards on the internet covering all sorts of different topics. From gardening, which I frequent, to distributed computing, which I also frequent. And you will see just as heated an argument regarding subjects like whether "natural, organic" gardening might not be as good as claimed or whether the use of "chemicals" as they are called by those on the distaff side, like Miracle Gro, are "poisoning the earth".
But the one thing that is common among them all is people and their volatile emotions. ;-)
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My comment was neither flippant nor arrogant...I thought wrong.
So then rather than hedge, you jumped out there anyway.
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So I didn't do research on the damn subject. This is a discussion board, not a fucking college class were every little detail needs to be accounted for and documented.
But aren't you in college right now? Consider it "debate practice". ;-)
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Do you seriously live such a superficial and meaningless life that you get pleasure from insulting people for a rather benign mistake.
Not at all... Only you are taking it so damn personally. ;-)
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I would think, you of all people, with sucha vast knowledge and understanding of Star Trek would realize that these "discussions" are nothing but pedantic babbling by people who claim to know more than they really do.
But what you miss is that they go beyond that. Ie., some of these discussions delve into the world of literary writing and writing styles in general. They also delve into some behind the scenes stuff dealing with the film industry itself and some of the directorial styles and whatnot. It's rather interesting as I have always been somewhat fascinated with the "behind the scenes" stuff.
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Apparently you are no better than anyone else on this board to realize that all the arguments that go on, all the bickering back and forth, all the complaints about B&B...everything is just stupid and meaningless.
No they're not. They HAVE meaning to the people who post them and are ASSIGNED meaning by the readers. ;-)
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Have we forgotten how to let ourselves enjoy life.
Your definition of "enjoying life" is certainly different from others' definition of the same. Some people jump out of airplanes with a parachute and consider THAT "enjoying life". Some take to the road cross-country in an RV, camping out in a tent in the middle of a virgin hardwood forest and consider THAT "enjoying life".
One day you'll figure that out. ;-)
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Have we lost so much meaning in our universe that we must find it by means of arguing of a fucking TV show.
Methinks that you need to relax and get some soap and wash that mouth out. ;-)
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You know what...I did just gain the will...I'm sick of the superficial bull shit that goes on here. Once you and everyone else can suddenly start talking about meaningful stuff in regards to Star Trek (and I mean some of philosophies of the ideas that have been portrayed in the franchise for 35+ years) rather than argue over such a mundane detail as a date - invite me back, because I'd love to be a part of that.
Then go read some of the threads that go beyond 1-line sound bites and give it a shot. Alot of what you suddenly want, has BEEN THERE all along. Yet you never had enough patience to go through it because you apparently bore easily.
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Until that point, search for a deeper meaning in you life, you, I, and most other people in this world desparately need it.
I already have it for this stage of my life and that undoubtably will change as the stages move forward. You will go through your life stages too... one day. ;-)
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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he's not re-writing the Eugenics Wars and making them happen in the ENT timeline. He's just taking an aspect of what happened in the Eugenics Wars, which is established in the show as having taken place in the past, and bring element from that past (frozen embroys of "mini-Khans) the time when ENT happened.
I can't see any continuity violation in this whatsoever. He is not doing the Eugenics wars in ENT's timeline, he's doing a story that takes place after they've already happened. How does that violate continuity?
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An elephant never forgets . . .TO KILL!
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Far more creative for the writers or producers to think of a way for the Eugneics Wars to have happened in the 1990s.
Off the top of my head (and I've hardly seen any Enterprise, by the way):
The EWs were not an actual event but a huge US Defence Department computer scenario. In "World War Three" (ST:FC et al) most of the Earth's records for that era were destroyed or scambled, and historians delving into the shattered offical records came across this and thought it was real;
The EWs happened literally as stated in SS and ST:TWOK, but something has distorted the timeline to the extend of the current paradox (i.e. the fact that we "know" both that the EWs happened in Star Trek and that they did not in reality, taking Star Trek as the future). This paradox would make an interesting episode of any Star Trek, and would possibly serve to straighten out the whole Klingon forehead thing too;
Following on from above: we now have two universes that we've seen in ST. Perhaps the original Star Trek and the animated version are the only time we've seen into that "window". Perhaps TNG etc (even the movies) are another time stream with elements of a common past, but not everything.
I find this idea rather appealing, as it opens the possibility of a new ST series set back in the original universe (which isn't ours, then, as we haven't had the EWs and they haven't had - presumably - a TV show called Star Trek in their 20th century). We can wipe the slate clean and go back to flawed characters, real conflict, adult stories and different symbols for each starship - all of which there was no good reason to change in the first place (well, maybe except money).
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As much of a continuity hawk as I am, I'm with Coto on this one. We've passed the 90's, the Eugenics Wars didn't happen, and to continue to say they did happen in the 90's would be odd to all but the hardcore Trek fan. I'm all for maintaining continuity, but it is just a TV show, and occassionally some things have to change for dramatic needs.
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=Tom=
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Quote:" and to continue to say they did happen in the 90's would be odd to all but the hardcore Trek fan.
So WHAT if we didn't have an Eugencis war in real life. Star Trek does NOT parallel real life. So you have something that has been established for over 35 years and now some guy comes by and say "no we change that because we can't write with in established parameters". Star Trek is SCI-FI and I think anyone who doesn't watch it or has in the past will say "we didn't have that in 90's so change it". More continuity errors! Coto is becoming a real disappointment. Still have B&B running the show and continuity (especially TOS) means NOTHING. If Coto is the fan he claims to be, he would follow established Trek. How hard is it? His reasoning for this is nonsense.
Once again, hard core Trek fans who paid attention all these years get to see more "errors"
Quote:"I'm all for maintaining continuity, but it is just a TV show, and occassionally some things have to change for dramatic needs."
Ok we should make Superman black, Batman really is a asian midget, wonder woman is really a transgender, Darth Vader is really a monkey in a robot suit, and Wesley Crusher is the long long long lost son of Captain Kirk. Would you be happy with those changes to things that have been established for so long? That is just an excuse to allow LAZY writing to occur. What is the point of having Trek on this long if they don't follow what has been established. HOW hard was it to use the established date?
This is twice now we see Coto dealing with STII/Space Seed and screwing around.
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I'm not crazy about them changing the date either, which is one of the (many) reasons I hated that Voyager two parter where they went back to the nineties. They could have had a great time with the episode, suggestion the guy had altered the timeline so that his timeline was ours, and that the 'Trek timeline was different:
Paris: I don't get it; the cars are different.
Chakotay: And they should be in the middle of the Eugenics Wars. No mention of Baig, Narayanan, Khan...
Janeway: Looks like things are worse than we thought...
So what we have from Coto here is damage control. DS9 altered the date and Voyager did not acknowledge the wars in their two parter. Let's not blame Coto for mistakes made before he came on board.
The Vulcan civil war, though is bullshit, and while I credit Coto with attempting to fix Vulcans it's too big a job and far too implausible in my book that Vulcans are going to have a second schism. We already had one when the Romulans leave. What happens to all the Vulcans who lose this war? They're simply going to abide by the decision of the victors? I don't think so. It didn't happen the first time.
As for Orion Slave Women. About. Damn. Time.
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"Oh, I'll wake up
To any sound of engines,
Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep
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Been wanting to say that I like your new .sig picture. They keep getting better and better! 
But I did also want to comment to you in response to why some of us are complaining:
Quote:
So what we have from Coto here is damage control. DS9 altered the date and Voyager did not acknowledge the wars in their two parter. Let's not blame Coto for mistakes made before he came on board.
Here's the deal. According to TOS "Space Seed" (and I do plan on rewatching the Sci Fi Channel SE edition of it - maybe even tonight in fact, to see what was mentioned in the commentary), the dialog describes what Khan and his group DID with respect to their "invasions", and it was explictly noted that this occurred pretty much SOLELY in "Asia and the Middle East", resulting in some "40 countries" and later, 1/4 of Earth (but STILL in that area remote from the U.S.).
THUS - North America, where the VOY crew were (in L.A.), was NOT "Asia and the Middle East" and I wouldn't presume that anyone in the U.S. (like now) would have stopped what they were doing to note the goings on in a Sudan and its civil wars, or an Ethiopia, and the border skirmishes between there and Eritrea, or the endless skirmishes between Pakistan and India and the disputed Kasmir territories, etc. And only because the U.S. is involved in Iraq do we hear the occassional mention about the Turkish Kurds and Kurdistan, which straddles both Iraq and Turkey.
Does this make sense?
To me, in reality, we KNOW this is all "fictional" and I don't expect Trek to have to follow everything that happened to this "real world" to the "T", knowing that the whole Klingon/Romulan vs Federation backstory was mirroring the Russia/China vs U.S. "real" Cold War.
And I think that the assumption of TOS and its future Earth was the "globalization" sentiment that was still in its infancy in the '60s (but a reality now). And thus the drama (using a "Historian" in the ep) of describing the Eugenics Wars from the vantage point of the fictional "future" - the 2200s of TOS - which WOULD find the era to be an interesting, historically "big thing". But it is not unlike what China seemed to have been doing in the '50s and '60s with North Korea and Vietnam and all those SE Asian countries and island chains and directly influencing them during the post-WW II era, once China became a Communist country, eventually lead by Mao Tse-Tung in the '50s. And note that Mao's "Little Red Book" was published during the mid-60s RIGHT when TOS was airing, so this sort of stuff was in the news at that time, lost amongst so much other stuff going on during the '60s.
Of course the implication behind naming Khan - "Khan Noonian Singh" (and making him up to be "swarthy", etc), was to suggest that he was from India - a country that we know has about 1,000,000,000 people NOW, 2nd only to China in population I believe.
And with respect to the Ron Moore goof up, he admitted to it. However this doesn't really excuse not going back to the source material (TOS) and rectifying a mistake, which ENT refuses to do.
It's just total disregard from the B & B camp - whether using Riker in FC to suddenly come up with a "600,000,000 dead" figure with respect to WW III, to a 7 of 9 referring to yet a different figure in VOY - it all clashes with Spock's reference to WW III casualties as being "37,000,000" (which may or may not be a bit unrealistic nowadays) in TOS "Bread and Circuses"... and it's a shame to compound the mistakes like they continue to do. It's lazy and sloppy actually.
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As for Orion Slave Women. About. Damn. Time.
You would wonder why they didn't do this before considering the sleeze factor that ENT has focussed on... ;-)
But here's a couple to think about:
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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and POW! Posts a-poppin'!
How about this? Between the time she started at the cetacean institute in the early 80's and the mid 90's, Dr. Gillian Taylor ended up becoming a key scientist in genetic research which had a direct link to the Eugenics Wars. Once she disappeared with Kirk in '86 the Wars...A) Didn't happen at all, or B) Took place in a different way or time.
Everything still happened to Kirk and Co. because Taylor wasn't taken out of the timeline until the time of ST:VI which obviously happened after ST:II.
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"Outer Space: The Last Frontier.
These are the trips of the Star Trek Enterprise. Its five year plan calls for us to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly fly where no man has gone in space. Live long, and be happy."
Patrick Stewart--SNL, Stardate 9402.05
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LOL
What you just wrote gave me a headache and I don't even want to think of any implications surrounding the removal of Gillian from the 1980s.
But of course the bigger picture is that humpbacks live again in the 23rd century and the Earth has been saved once more. ;-)
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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Quote from Jadzia-Dax to katefan:
Of course the implication behind naming Khan - "Khan Noonian Singh" (and making him up to be "swarthy", etc), was to suggest that he was from India
That's more than implied in Space Seed. As Khan is being revived aboard the S.S. Botany Bay, Lieutenant Marla McGivers (a historian) makes comment about him: "From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh. They were the most fantastic warriors."
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Classic TOS Phaser 1 + 2
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Quote:
That's more than implied in Space Seed. As Khan is being revived aboard the S.S. Botany Bay, Lieutenant Marla McGivers (a historian) makes comment about him: "From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh. They were the most fantastic warriors."
Yeah thanks - I figured that. :-) I'm going to rewatch it tonight to also see what commentary is included in the Sci Fi Channel SE of it, which I will transcribe as well.
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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About the Kate Bush pic; yeah, I scoured the Gaff Web site for some good ones. Well, honestly, they've all good... ;)
Yum, Batgirl Yvonne Craig, my grade school crush... :)
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"Oh, I'll wake up
To any sound of engines,
Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep
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LOL about Batgirl.
You know what's funny is that the commentary for that (TOS "Whom Gods Destroy") mentioned about the Trek/Batman connection (including her, Frank Gorshin, et al) and also had a interview blip from Clint Howard who claimed that all he ever wanted to do back then, ie., his biggest goal in life - was to appear on "Batman". But of course as we know, he ended up playing in Trek as Balok in TOS "The Corbomite Manuver"... LOL. (although he also showed up in DS9 and in ENT too as a Ferengi.. lol)
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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Yeah, I recall the Batman/Trek connection as well. I like Frank Gorshin a lot and wish he had gotten more work after the sixties. He could do drama and comedy equally well, and was by far the best Bat-villain. He was nominated for an emmy, but bug-eyed Don Knotts beat him. A travesty!
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"Oh, I'll wake up
To any sound of engines,
Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep
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Hey! I got Don Knotts' autograph when he was here in Philly on the Mike Douglas Show back in '76 (I had tickets to be in the studio audience).
(he was the nicest guy though, I will give him that... :-))
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
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