I doubt it was the repetitiousness of the conflict scenes between the main characters. I'm surprised to say it, because I've always been a big fan of Patrick Stewart, but there were too many silly scenes in Nemesis, too many with him. The one near the beginning set the pace as far as I'm concerned: Picard driving that stupid dune buggy like vehicle just seemed ludicrous - like a Patrick Stewart indulging himself on his vacation home video.
I'm starting to agree with many of the voices on this board that Trek is getting very tired. Every time I see them waste money on yet another dumb plot in the Star Trek movie series, I'm wistful for something like the Wrath of Khan. Most of the movies have been like parodies of Trek, or worse, Galaxy Quest.
The first two seasons of ENT actually seemed to me to be an interesting tangent from the overly child oriented content of DS9 and, to a lesser extent, VOY. Although season three had a couple really great eps, it was generally a big turn for the worse - IMO. I'm also very pessimistic about season four based on the season 3 finale. No doubt 80+% rated it very good or better on this site but I really thought it stunk.
Anyway, I have my fingers crossed. But if ENT dies or just gets as boring for me as DS9 generally was, I'll seek refuge in Japanese dramas - I've become a real Japanese drama slut of late. I might even be able to focus more on work instead of watching ENT reruns! ;) I might even get productive enough to be worth what they pay me - now that would be
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'It was beautiful, we were selling rich women their fat asses back to them' - Tylor Durden
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[i]"...the overly child oriented content of DS9 and, to a lesser extent..."e[i]
Are you stoned? DS9 was not chilshish, there's no other way to look at it. This is not a matter of interpretation. You're simply wrong, wrong as hell.
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The autumn days swung soft around me, like cotton on
my skin. But as the embers of the summer lost their
breath and disappeared, my heart went cold, and
only hollow rhythms resounded from within.
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Are you stoned?
No itβs been years since I last indulged. But I take your point, perhaps if I got a bit buzzed I might appreciate DS9's really deep characters like Quark and the other ridiculous Ferengi caricatures. Yeah, I might even appreciate Bashir's incessant adolescent whining too.
Anyway, Deslok used to give me shit for dissing DS9 too. His most valid point, as I recall, was that I have not watched the whole series - I've probably watched about 50% of it at this point. But if it aint all that great at 50%, I'm not exactly driven to watch the rest. Also, there were some interestingly developed and portrayed characters such as O'Brien and his wife Keiko.
I guess childish isn't the most articulate way to sum up what I feel was bad about DS9. Although the characters that I mentioned and the whole Dominion War plot seemed childish, there were many other aspects of the show that left stone cold. For example, Sisko was always so stagy but with no gravitas. (Patrick Stewart was also quite stagy, but he had extraordinary presence.) Another example of what I disliked about DS9 was the lack of interesting single episode plots. There were some that were good -like the one where some of the Ferengi characters accidentally visited 30s era USA- but very very few.
So, although I'm incontrovertibly 'wrong' in your opinion, I think DS9 was the worst Trek series yet.
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'It was beautiful, we were selling rich women their fat asses back to them' - Tylor Durden
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But I take your point, perhaps if I got a bit buzzed I might appreciate DS9's really deep characters like Quark and the other ridiculous Ferengi caricatures.
The funny thing is that Quark IS a deep character, but you obviously don't have the attention span to comprehend this. The other Ferengi characters were not deep at all though, with the possible exception of Nog.
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Also, there were some interestingly developed and portrayed characters such as O'Brien and his wife Keiko.
I assume you're being sarcastic here. While O'Brien didn't get much development he's a great character nevertheless.
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the whole Dominion War plot seemed childish,
HOW? It is not simply an excuse for action sequences, unlike Enterprise: Xindi Quest. There are intellegent meaningful stories being told. How can you call episodes like "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost," "Call to Arms," "Rocks and Shoales," "Statistical Probabilities," "In the Pale Moonlight," and "The Siege of AR-558" and otherse like them "childish"?
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Another example of what I disliked about DS9 was the lack of interesting single episode plots.
It has a decent amount of those, if for some reason that's the only thing you like about a TV show. Although if this is a major factor in determining what is a good show or not I'd say you have some pretty strange tastes...
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the overly child oriented content of DS9
WHAT are you TALKING ABOUT!!??
"CHILD ORIENTED" content of DS9?
OK, let's start from step one.
1. There is a television show called Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
2. WATCH it.
3. Now comment.
Deep Space Nine is the most "mature" of all the Star Trek shows (although that word can mean a lot of things).
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It also has the best pilot of all the Trek series, by a long way.
Then again, this person also believes ENT's Season 1 & 2 to be better than Season 3, so at least they're consistent in their utter wrongness.
... or even February, perhaps Nemesis could have had a bigger take -- despite its flaws. But, Paramount released it right after the new Bond film and The Two Towers.
At least Frakes is taking it seriously and not saying something as asinine as "I guess fans hate Romulans."
I agree that they DID not focus on the characters as they have done in the past.I may be wrong(and probably am)that it seemed this movie ,and Inserection seemed to be more about Data and Picard,and from what I remember they wanted influence on the story....did not ask Frakes who directed some of the most popular episodes when it was on T.V.?,....as a friend always told me Sumthin's up?
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the clown can stay,but the ferengi in the gorilla suit has to go
I agree that they DID not focus on the characters as they have done in the past.I may be wrong(and probably am)that it seemed this movie ,and Inserection seemed to be more about Data and Picard,and from what I remember they wanted influence on the story....did not ask Frakes who directed some of the most popular episodes when it was on T.V.?,....as a friend always told me Sumthin's up?
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the clown can stay,but the ferengi in the gorilla suit has to go
They need to do two things with this franchise:
1) Wait a long time and build up anticipation and hunger for Trek.
2) When they finally do, don't screw it up like they did with STAR WARS.
DONE. Simple, isn't it?
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I think Trek is improving since the Nemesis bomb. Rumor goes that B&B are leaving and putting Coto in charge, they have better writing and a better grasp on the series now more than ever.
However, once ENT is done with, I agree, put a hold on the franchise for a while.
And in terms of your Star Wars comment, I agree 100% with ya. Also, did ya hear that apparently they are coming out with a Star Wars TV series now? Jesus.
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Phantom Menace kind of sucked, but they made up for it was Attack of the Clones. That movie was awesome.
Sadly, my girlfriend refuses to watch Attack of the CLones because she hated Phantom Menace so much. Total over-reaction concidering Phantom Menace wasn't really THAT bad! It was better then Star Trek Nemesis, for one!
As for the TV series...I'll watch it!
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And over the years, long acting scenes in the STAR TREK movies never seemed to help the movies, and NEMESIS had more than a few long acting scenes."
I don't think he knows what he's talking about here. The Wrath of Khan had many long dialogue scenes, and they were all perfect. I suppose the other films were a bit faster paced, but they all get srength from the dialogue (Kirk and Spock in TUC, Lily Sloane and Picard in FC, etc). The two times I saw Nemesis the pacing was always quick. It was a fast paced film that sacrificed an interesting story and interesting characters for the sake of action. And THAT is where the problem lies.
But I still thank Frakes for trying to be honest about the film.
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everyone I know liked the movie, the story pace action and script, and the music too. This movie actually felt like a movie, good drama and a great script, ST FC was good too but the strong points in that movie, Picard losing it and flipping out and Data's exchanges with the Borg QUEEN are exactly what make ST Nemesis good.
No techno babble, no cheese, great script come on this was great.
I don't know what everyone is talking about.
ST Nemesis did poorly beacuse the entire franchise is in freefall due to Berman&Braga and people have simply stopped being interested Voyager was a big turn off and Enterprise quickly followed though this season has been a big improvement, even TNG & DS9 had either weak episodes or at least were inconsistent at the end of their run.
I didn't see Nemesis in the theater myself along with other fans (1st st movie ever) becasue with B&B involve it was likely to be garbage, thankfully I was wrong.
And BTW Insurrection was crap, Frakes - who i like - would not have done as good a job as Baird
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Insurrection was a million times better then Nemesis. Frakes is a better director then Baird.
spacebeluga is right, however. All of these films felt like movies. Never have they felt like standard TV episodes. People always say they were overlong episodes not because it's true, but because it's the hip thing to say. Another example is the odd number curse. Give me a break. Trek III was a great movie, and Generations was pretty good too. THe worst film in the whole series is X, an even number
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This movie actually felt like a movie
I wish that people would explain this. Generations felt like a movie, even though a lot of it in the middle also had the same feel as the TNG show. First Contact definetely felt like a movie. I don't see how anyone wouldn't think so. It was big in every way - the new ship, the significance of the mission, the Borg, the drama - everything. Insurrection didn't really feel like a movie, but I would say that Nemesis did. But no more so than Generations or First Contact.
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ST FC was good too but the strong points in that movie, Picard losing it and flipping out and Data's exchanges with the Borg QUEEN are exactly what make ST Nemesis good.
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense...Picard flipping out and Data's exchanges with the Borg Queen are what made Nemesis good?? I think you need to rephrase. :-)
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No techno babble, no cheese, great script come on this was great.
Pointless action is just as bad as technobabble.
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And BTW Insurrection was crap, Frakes - who i like - would not have done as good a job as Baird
I think the problem with Insurrection was more the story, rather than the directing, but I'm not a film critic. Frakes did a good job with First Contact and with the episodes he directed.
It wasn't just long scenes that hurt the movie. Long scenes are fine as long as they are driven by conflict. First Contact had numerous dialogue scenes from the end of the Deflector fight to the confrontation with the Queen, but it was kept interesting by having Picard in conflict with Worf and his own morals.
We had Picard just TALKING to Shinzon several times. There was no conflict between them until he kidnapped Picard, and even then Picard was restrained.
There were also major flaws with the B9 subplot -- namely they simply reactivate him with no second thought or security precautions, without learning from their experience with Lore. Are the crew THAT dumb?
The best part of the movie was that the Romulan Senator was played by Jim Robinson from Australian soap Neighbourrs, and died in the same manner that Jim Robinson did in the show.
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"Men don't use sex to get what they want. Sex IS what they want" - Frasier
I really think if Frakes had directed Nemesis it would have helped the movie alot. Insurrection was not the greatest script but it still was very well directed and you could tell Frakes was getting the most out of what he was givin. I agree 100% with his comments about the flow and slow pacing of the movie. Also I agree that there was just not enough character moments with the cast alot of them where cut by Baird where as frakes may have left some of them in and got rid of alot of the repeating parts with Picard and Shinzon talking about being "the same".
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I never found anything wrong with Frakes' directing, It was good that they brought in a new directior, but they could have gotten a better one, and a writer who wasn't a glorified fanfic creator.
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Dig deep piles of rubble and ruins
Towering overhead both far and wide
There's unknown tools for World War III
Einstein said 'We'll use rocks on the other side'
No survivors!
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Look what else Logan was responsible for!! Gladiator and Bats. Now I know Gladiator won Oscars, but it wasn't for the script! The script was bland, and predictable. THe movie's success was based on the fight scenes and Ridley Scott's direction.
And Bats??? The less said the better!
As soon as I read Logan's resume I had a sinking feeling that Nemesis would suck...and sure enough....
Frakes was absolutely correct. There are too many scenes where people just stand around talking and it slows the film down. And how many times can we have scenes where Picard tells Shinzon that he can be a better man. And like he said, no one was anxious to see Nemesis. When the trailers came on, people groaned and said, "Not another Star Trek movie."
I wish he talked more about Baird as a director. Frakes wasn't a great director, but at least he understood the Star Trek concept and the characters and knew how to keep things moving along. Bringing in an outsider is good since it brings a fresh perspective. But get someone who'll do his homework. Harve Bennett knew nothing about Star Trek when he was hired to produce Star Trek II, but at least he took the time to go watch all the episodes of TOS. Did Baird even bother watching TNG reruns?
Berman had the right idea in finally bringing in outside talent. Too bad he picked the wrong people. He got a director too lazy to familiarize himself with the source material and a writer who was too much of a fanboy.
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"Maybe in another thousand years, we'll have teleportation and all that other Star Trek stuff. But with our current technology, we can't even make William Shatner's hair look real." --- Bill Maher
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I think the writer had the best intentions in mind by bringing out the Romulan theme, although where the movie failed, IMHO, was the actual fact that Romulans were not fully featured and all focus was brought on Remans.
Another thing is that while Tom Hardy did a good job portraying Picard's clone, Patrick Stewart would have done better as his mirror self and Tom Hardy might just have had a lesser/interim role to play.
The following is a list of all the other different reasons I read about in this TrekWeb BBS.
* Stuard Baird β while he may have had good action flicks to get credit from, he didn't do his homework. Jonathan Frakes would have done better.
* Lots of scissors β one third of the movie ending on the cutting room floor and scenes important to fans were also cut.
* Inconsistent plot because of all above;
* Releasing the movie around the time of heavy motion pictures of a similar genre ("James Bond", "Lord of the Rings");
* I would have released the movie later and in a refined state. Releasing this movie later would have required the prodution crews to work on refinement.
* More test screening should have also been possible.
* Most likely the B&B factor.
One of the reasons Insurrection didn't bomb and was enjoyable enough was that it was test-screened, its director was Frakes and the plot wasn't this inconsistent.
Jonathan Frakes sounds honest about NEMESIS' failure and at peace with the fact that he's played Riker for the last time. That's the way to look at it, realistically and openly.
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Also, too, that he's left the door open for another shot at doing another film. I think, while he said no one was chopping at the bit, most of the cast would welcome a return, one final hurrah. Even Stewert has said that it's still possible to return. But I don't foresee this happening for at least 5 years.
I'm not sure it would be possible or even smart, but a tie-in to Enterprise would interesting. You're probably saying how?
Well, I see two ways:
a.) Picard could mention Archer, founding of the Federation. Maybe even an 'Archer manuever' [while he's bed with Crusher]; or something like that.
b.) Or similarly, perhaps there's a conspiracy in the UFP (I know, I know...it's been done to death); but it has to do with an emerging
Temporal Cold War faction. Somehow, through all this time-travel
mumbo jumbo, Archer and Picard meet. There have been some really good books on where Picard and Kirk (TOS) help each other without really meeting face-to-face.
I dunno. Could work. I just don't want another Picard-Data story.
One of Many
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"Well, I've got pictures!" - Phlox, The Cogenitor
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25th anniversary for TNG will be in 2012, maybe we'll see a proper send-off movie then (or 2007 for the 20th)...
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"Ich habe es satt allein aufzustehn // als Erster zu sehn // Dass ich noch leb"
"I'm fed up with getting up alone // To be the first to see // That I'm still alive"
- Rosenstolz, "Ich will mich verlieben"
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