As a fan of Trek, I have been coming to this site for some time. I never felt the need to post an opinion until now. O. Deus uses a racially derogative word to describe a character in the last Enterprise episode. The future son of Trip and T'Pol is refered to as a "Redneck Vulcan." The term "redneck" is the same as "nigger, spik or gook." But it seems perfectly acceptable to use this term to degrade white people. When Tuvok appeared on Voyager, was he refered to as the first "Nigger Vulcan?" Of course not. That would be racist. Then what is "Redneck Vulcan?" Don't get me wrong. I am not saying Tuvok should be refered to with a racially derogative term. I am saying that white people also deserve to be treated with the same respect. What gets me, is how many white people just sit back and let this double standard go. And people like O. Deus and Jeff Foxworthy use this term against white people would never have the guts to use racially derogative terms against other races, and would call me racist for pointing out this hypocrisy. Those who call me racist need to go get a dictionary and look up the definition. I am no racist. I am simply sick of the prejudice against white people. I expect it on Def Comedy Jam and Dave Chapelle. These people have made careers of making fun of white people. But if a white person did the exact same things, we are called racist. Grow a set, and complain to the webmaster, producers and even the FCC. This double standard needs to be stopped. It is not right that every other race has protections, while it is open season on OUR people.
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"The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons. We cannot allow him to prevail in that quest. The weapons are an unacceptable threat." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. John Kerry, April 18, 1971
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- John Kerry, presidential campaign,2004
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I think the reason why “redneck” doesn’t anger white people (save one) as a term as other words for other races is simply because most whites have thicker skin and can take insults maturely. Case in point Tecate Beer had a billboard advertisement with the statement, “Finally a Cold Latina”. All these Latino folks were in an uproar over it claiming everything from racism, to sexual connotations. Personally I think they just don’t like the fact that there are a lot of “cold latinos” out there (watch the movie “Training Day”). Here’s the article http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2004/05/17/daily14.html if you’d like to read more. Technically words like redneck, and nigger aren’t necessarily evil, it’s all in how the word is used. I could easily insult you using just the word, “sir”.
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http://music.download.com/kxmode
http://www.kxmode.com
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Redneck is not a racial insult. Redneck refers to an American stereotype which is only applicable to a small part of the white population, also known as trailor trash or white trash. Nigger refers to all black people.
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Dig deep piles of rubble and ruins
Towering overhead both far and wide
There's unknown tools for World War III
Einstein said 'We'll use rocks on the other side'
No survivors!
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Pluleeze! Don't go makin' Rednecks victims!
They are a proud klan, so get over it.
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PAY ATTENTION! Listen to DemocracyNow! , AirAmericaRadio and CrooksandLiars - Where the REAL truth hurts everyone!
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I am not making Rednecks victims. I am simply pointing out the double standard on race in this country. Do we not deserve the same protections that other races enjoy? Amos and Andy is banned from American television for being insensitive to Blacks. Then why do so many Black television shows get away with being insensitive to Whites? "PAY ATTENTION! Listen to www.airamericaradio.com - Where the truth hurts... Republicans mostly." In case you did not know, Air America has to pay to be on the air. No one will pay them. Meanwhile conservative radio is and has been booming for years. Liberal radio fails in the free market place. That is truth.
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"The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons. We cannot allow him to prevail in that quest. The weapons are an unacceptable threat." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. John Kerry, April 18, 1971
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- John Kerry, presidential campaign,2004
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Talk about off topic!
Don't you have a GOP convention to plan or a cross you can go burn on someone's lawn some where? You think whitey deserves more respect - WE GET IT!
Now stick to the subject, or go annoy people in the Bajoran Fire Caves, Rush.
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PAY ATTENTION! Listen to DemocracyNow! , AirAmericaRadio and CrooksandLiars - Where the REAL truth hurts everyone!
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Whoa, time out. He was on the subject and that was about whether or not the term "redneck" was derogatory.
He's not asking for "whitey" to get more respect, only that the same standards apply to all races. And the cross-burning crack was way out of line there. He makes just a couple comments and already you've determined he is a member of the 'Klan.
For my money I don't find the term "redneck" to be all that bad. The term has been used affectionately by rednecks to describe themselves and derogatorially by non-rednecks. Willie Nelson joked about it on SNL one time.
Frankly I don't find words like "honky" to be offensive to me. It's just a word. If some person calls me a "honky" to get a rise out of me, good luck. I refuse to rise to the bait and give that person any power over me. There is pride, and there is pig-headedness.
And I don't think O'Deus is anti-southern; he's said plenty of good things about Trip and Trineer in the past. I just think he was staying in the tone of the review, which was sardonic.
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"Oh, I'll wake up
To any sound of engines,
Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep
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These are just words, people. You can either let them define you, or let your deeds do your talking for you.
Look, I just don't respond well to anyone who attempts to call a foul when it comes to the so-called plight of whites from the "anything but liberal media". It just smells like another dittohead picking a fights because he's bored.
Plus anyone who can't see the importance of an endevour like airamericaradio.com at this crucial time of this troubled country's present, is more that likely just another of the ignorant fool and part another part of the problem - especially when they try to make an extremely lame-assed attack on airamericaradio's mere existance. And I don't care what AirAmericaRadio has to go through to be on the air, just as long as they're on IN America.
See? Blah, blah, blah, blah... Fire Caves.
Do it!
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PAY ATTENTION! Listen to DemocracyNow! , AirAmericaRadio and CrooksandLiars - Where the REAL truth hurts everyone!
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Well I appreciate the fact you dropped the insults from your last post. You called my fact filled assertation a "lame-assed attack." That shows what you must think of the free market, otherwise known as people. I have no problem with Air America being on. But the fact remains. But your insistance that I go away truly shows who is "lame-assed." Also, it has been well documented that the media is extremely slanted to the left barring talk radio and the Fox news channel. You have ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, CNBC, MSNBC and almost every major newspaper in the US. And let's not forget NPR. And as far as "anyone who attempts to call a foul when it comes to the so-called plight of whites," if you do not see the double standard when it comes to race then you are simply not paying attention, or you like it that way. Where are the White counterparts for the Black Congressional Congress, the NAACP, the United Negro College Fund, Miss Black USA and on and on. Any White person or group that attempted to create a counterpart for one of these would be ran off as a racist. Can only non-Whites cry foul in your open-minded, tolerant Liberal view? Only non-Whites can be discriminated against? Come on man, what's good for the goose....
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"The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons. We cannot allow him to prevail in that quest. The weapons are an unacceptable threat." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. John Kerry, April 18, 1971
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- John Kerry, presidential campaign,2004
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"The Lady doth protest too much mee thinks." - Hamlet by Wm. Shakespeare
Now you're just baiting me.
If your so-called liberal media weren't such duplicitous accomplices of the white house, people like me, who want the REAL truth wouldn't have to go to international news sources to get it. And you know why organizations like the ones you've sited were created. You can't be THAT stupid.
Hope you had fun doing the Limbaugh on the TrekWeb!
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PAY ATTENTION! Listen to DemocracyNow! , AirAmericaRadio and CrooksandLiars - Where the REAL truth hurts everyone!
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Yeah, that is why they all attack Bush, instead of pointing out good things about him. Yeah, right. That is why 80% off all the people in the media I mentioned are registered Democrats. Come on man, you don't like Republicans. Fine. That is your right as an American. But be honest about it.
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"The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons. We cannot allow him to prevail in that quest. The weapons are an unacceptable threat." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. John Kerry, April 18, 1971
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- John Kerry, presidential campaign,2004
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Hey, I like everybody.
I just don't like lying, greedy, racist, hippocritical, empirical pricks.
And, in spite of your convenient right wing factoids, I even like you.
Now give us a hug.
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PAY ATTENTION! Listen to DemocracyNow! , AirAmericaRadio and CrooksandLiars - Where the REAL truth hurts everyone!
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katefan, an excellent post. This person is calling me a racist because I defend my race. Unbelievable! Did I get off subject? Yes I did, but only because of his message at the bottom of his post asserting truth. Notice his only reply to my charge that America is not interested in Liberal talk radio was to insult me. Must be that open minded-tolerance the left always preaches. That is until one disagrees with them. I do agree with your opinion that these words in themselves are not that bad. And you nailed it with the same standards line. That is all I am asking.
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"The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons. We cannot allow him to prevail in that quest. The weapons are an unacceptable threat." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. John Kerry, April 18, 1971
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- John Kerry, presidential campaign,2004
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BTW - Your race is human, not black, white green or redneck.Or is that too much of a stretch for you?
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PAY ATTENTION! Listen to DemocracyNow! , AirAmericaRadio and CrooksandLiars - Where the REAL truth hurts everyone!
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I don't think Redneck is a bad term...not if you have a sense of humor about it, since it's not nearly as bad as other racially derogatory terms like whitey, cracker, gringo, etc. You're being a little oversensitive about it, and I don't know what a self-important media station like the one mentioned has to do with anything.
I don't think Odeus intended his review to be offensive...as a matter of fact, chances are, statistically speaking, he *is* white for all we know.
That said, on the other side of that spectrum, Gene's Ghost was insensitve, and I agree that what Ghost said was uncalled for in response to the original post. And it's more than a little hypocritical to make a racist comment and then justify it by saying there is only one race.
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DS9, maybe you are correct about me being oversensitive. I am just so fed up with the outright prejudice against White people in this country. White people are denied the protections that minorities enjoy. Then I come here to read a review and see the term redneck being used.
The "media station" rant was in response to a poster that used insults to rebuke my point. He had a quote about Air America at the bottom of his post that I disagreed with.
I am sure O Deus was not trying to be offensive. But look what happened to Trent Lott over a private comment at a private party. It does not matter the intention. It is the perception that causes anger. It is not so much the term, but the double standard that gets my goat.
I appreciate your opinion about Gene's Ghost's comment.
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"The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons. We cannot allow him to prevail in that quest. The weapons are an unacceptable threat." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. John Kerry, April 18, 1971
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- John Kerry, presidential campaign,2004
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"we get Lorian the first Redneck Vulcan on STAR TREK. He might have been entertaining if played for laughs, maybe meditating under a Confederate flag to a piece from a Harley's motor."
I guess what O. Deus means is that anyone with a
slightly southern accent is a redneck, and while that's stereotypical, it is by far racist. "Redneck"
is a CULTURAL term, NOT RACIAL. Do you even know where the term "redneck" comes from? Last time I
checked, millions of sunburnt farmers weren't sold
into slavery. "Redneck" is not a racial slur, period.
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Show me a man who lives alone and has a perpetually clean kitchen, and 8 times out of 9 I'll show you a man
with detestable spiritual qualities.
Charles Bukowski
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"and while that's stereotypical, it is by far racist. "Redneck" I guess you meant to say "it is by far not racist." If Redneck is not a racist term it must be a compliment right? And what does slavery have to do with racist terms? Only those who have been enslaved can be offended? A CULTURAL term? That can be said about ANY racist term. Come on man, don't be afraid to defend your race.
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"The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons. We cannot allow him to prevail in that quest. The weapons are an unacceptable threat." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. John Kerry, April 18, 1971
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- John Kerry, presidential campaign,2004
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Semantics, my friend. Sue me for not having my coffee this morning.
"And what does slavery have to do with racist terms?"
We're in America, man - a simple history lesson and you should know the answer to that.
"If Redneck is not a racist term it must be a compliment, right?" I'm not saying it's a compliment,
I'm saying that there's no such thing as a race of
rednecks. What about "yankee"? Is that racist? I'm
here in good 'ol North Carolina, and I hear that on a
daily basis.
Don't get me wrong - I understand where you're coming
from about whitey gettin' trounced by black comedians.
Some of it's funny, some of it's just stupid and out of spite. Some comedy's good, some sucks. Some's white, some's black. Whatever. I laughed my ASS off
at Chris Rock last night, and half the time he was making fun of black people. Does that make me racist?
No. Does that make him racist? No. It makes me a fan of comedy and him a comedian.
Maybe it's the fact that I've grown up in the south and I've heard the words "redneck" and "nigger" thrown
around like softballs my entire life. I don't care
for either one, but I do know that their's a difference in the amount of weight each word carries.
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Show me a man who lives alone and has a perpetually clean kitchen, and 8 times out of 9 I'll show you a man
with detestable spiritual qualities.
Charles Bukowski
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Stroker, I have to admit, your post is one of the most intelligent and well thought out I have read yet.
I appreciate that you understand where I am coming from. You know as well as I that if a White comedian got on TV and said the same things about Black people that they say about White people, he would be destroyed. And not just comedians. Remember Howard Cosell and Jimmy the Greek? Did Jessie Jackson receive the same treatment for "hymietown?" Let's not forget who enslaved the Jews for 2000 years.
It is not so much the words I am talking about. I am talking about this double standard, and feel it is time for White people to demand equality, as in the same protections that minorities enjoy. If this double standard is allowed to continue, it can only make race matters worse.
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"The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons. We cannot allow him to prevail in that quest. The weapons are an unacceptable threat." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. John Kerry, April 18, 1971
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- John Kerry, presidential campaign,2004
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Well said.
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"Worlds may change, galaxies may disintegrate, but a woman always remains a woman."
--James Kirk, "The Conscience of the King"
"Vulcan children are never late with their sehlats' dinner."
--T'Pol, "The Forge"
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Since when does "redneck" refer only to one race? Don't be a dumbass.
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"Worlds may change, galaxies may disintegrate, but a woman always remains a woman."
--James Kirk, "The Conscience of the King"
"Vulcan children are never late with their sehlats' dinner."
--T'Pol, "The Forge"
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A "dumbass" eh? Please explain to me what other race is refered to as "Redneck?" Are Asains called Rednecks? Are Latinos called Rednecks? Are Blacks called Rednecks? Redneck only refers to white people. Since your attempt at insulting me has failed, I will use an accurate term to describe you: Ignorant, because you do not know what you are talking about. And before you think I called you stupid, go look up the definition of the word "ignorant." And if you are correct, which you are not, are you telling me that if a racial slur covers more than one race it is then acceptable?
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"The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons. We cannot allow him to prevail in that quest. The weapons are an unacceptable threat." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. John Kerry, April 18, 1971
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- John Kerry, presidential campaign,2004
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Dipshit, if a "racial slur covers more than one race" then it's not a racial slur. It's a slur. And if that's what you're complaining about, welcome to the internet.
Oh, by the way, thanks for interpreting "ignorant" for me. Now go look up "pedantic."
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"Worlds may change, galaxies may disintegrate, but a woman always remains a woman."
--James Kirk, "The Conscience of the King"
"Vulcan children are never late with their sehlats' dinner."
--T'Pol, "The Forge"
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Although I agree with you that outspoken racism by other races towards white people is accepted too easily, I beleive anyone who thinks the term "redneck" is racist must be a retard. You do not have to be white to be a redneck, you just have to be intellectually challenged conservative, and have a southern US accent. A small percentage of white people could be called rednecks, but every black person could be called a nigger.
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Dig deep piles of rubble and ruins
Towering overhead both far and wide
There's unknown tools for World War III
Einstein said 'We'll use rocks on the other side'
No survivors!
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Well thanks for your agreement with my point. But why the "retard" insult? Why do liberals (assuming by your conservative insult) always resort to insults to make a point? And, if only a small percentage of Whites can be called Rednecks, does that make it OK? This is amazing to me that so many White people are scared to defend their own race.
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"The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons. We cannot allow him to prevail in that quest. The weapons are an unacceptable threat." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. John Kerry, April 18, 1971
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- John Kerry, presidential campaign,2004
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It's not an insult, it's an opinion. You believe something incredibly stupid, so I believe that you're intellectually challenged, in other words, retarded.
By the way, I wasn't aware rednecks liked Star Trek, how exactly did you come accross it? Did it happen to be on the tube when you were taking a dump in the outside turlet?
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Dig deep piles of rubble and ruins
Towering overhead both far and wide
There's unknown tools for World War III
Einstein said 'We'll use rocks on the other side'
No survivors!
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You are just an imature child Cymro. A sniveling little immature child. Maybe one day you will join the adults and learn how to debate without the use of insults, that you would never have the guts to say to someone's face, but only behind the protection of the internet.
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"The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons. We cannot allow him to prevail in that quest. The weapons are an unacceptable threat." -- John Kerry, 10/9/02
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. John Kerry, April 18, 1971
"I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." -- John Kerry, presidential campaign,2004
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Thing is, I'm not a redneck. I consider many white people to be rednecks. Why would I 'defend' them? I hate them.
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"Worlds may change, galaxies may disintegrate, but a woman always remains a woman."
--James Kirk, "The Conscience of the King"
"Vulcan children are never late with their sehlats' dinner."
--T'Pol, "The Forge"
I always know when I'm bored watching Enteprirse because I start cracking jokes and getting sarcastic.
For ages I'm saying "But if you go through they next existed..." but then of course getting into the whole paradox thing. Watching the dim-witted Archer slowly come to this conclusion numerous minutes later was hilarious.
And I was cheering for a scene to come, when Archer was wanting the other Enterprise to come out, where the corridor opened up and bits of the other Enterprise came floating through, along with the odd arm and Vulcan ear splattting on to the NX-01's hull.
But anyway, totally agree with O Deus. I've been enjoying Trek for the first time in ages of late. Heck, I'm even eager to see Enterprise now! But this episode was just a return to old Trek, and that's not a good thing.
Even the explanation of why they went back in time sounded very Voyager with its technobabble.
The other thing was that it just didn't fit in with the timeline, it was like it was filmed, delayed then they put it in. Like Sliders and Farscape did "You remember that event..." and they bring out this "lost" episode. Well with Degra tagged onto the end, it felt like that... like he'd just been waiting for this episode to be aired, then to get back to the story.
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Lydia: "I've never lost at mortal combat yet."
Diana: "Idiot. If you had, you'd be dead." -- V, "The Champion"
The last thing this franchise needs is an episode like E2. The episode was almost a complete waste. It barely moved the Zindi plot forward. The main focus of the episode seemed to be the regurgitation of the T'Pol / Trip relationship. A relationship that doesn't have enough "on screen chemistry" to carry an episode. Tiresome to watch.
If there was any learning experience for the crew of Enterprise, it came at the very end of the episode. When Archer partially realized that by altering the timeline, he had ended the lives of all the children of E2.
How many times have we seen an altered timeline episode in Star Trek? Complete with a little techno babble thrown in for plot resolution? Maybe the writers took this week off? E2 is the most disappointing episode of season 3 for me.
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It almost like the producers have a grasp on the "arc" concept and the we get an episode like this.
If we are going to have a Xindi arc, let's have a Xindi arc.
Instead, we got another worn time travel episode.
Why not have a more "B5ish" plot for E2?
Here's what I'm thinking.
Archer and crew were thrown 400 years into the past and accidently destroy the Xindi homeworld? Remember we saw their homeworld in rubble earlier this season.
Much like the "War Without End" arc in B5, this E2 could reveal that Earth really *was* responsible for the destruction of the Xindi world in the past.
To me it would bring a dramatic edge of guilt to the next few episodes. And rather than stopping the Xindi weapon, the season could end with Archer not going through the corridor/nebula/wormhole. The expanse would suddenly disappear, the Xindi homeworld would be back where it was 400 years ago and when Archer and crew returned home expecting a hero's welcome, they would come home to a world that didn't know it had been saved. The probe never would have been launched, Tripp's sister is still alive.
To me that would have been a much better way to end this "arc", but I'm just a guy who appreciates a good narrative thread as a way to get good ratings. People have to want to watch a show because of the story and the characters. From the last part of season 2 through season 4, B5 did that for me. I'll also say the last three seasons of DS9 did too. If ENT can capture that feeling and develop better plots with more irony and less "neural pressure" massages, the ratings dive could be reversed.
That's my .02c. ;)
-Ted
Hi
I'm afraid I have to agree 100% with Deus. The high point for me was when Trip warned Lorein "You don't wanna do this!" Almost a warning of what Archer was gonna do in response.
Archer for me is the best. He's turning into a bad ass captain. Not afraid to bend the rules or outright break them to get the job done. It's true to life, except in the Star Trek universe. Reed is also great. He backs his captain 100%. Exactly the way a security officer should.
The Trip & T'Pol arc is downright annoying. The only ones who seem to like it are women because Trip is considered a so called stud. Trip has a ship to fix & all he's doing is trying to get into T'Pol's pants. Granted I can understand that but not in the middle of a crisis. T'Pol is now an addict which is a terrible character twist. I also like Phlox but he's now a cheerleader for Trip & T'Pol. Constantly encouraging them into massage sessions & putting medical research into their pro creation.
Personally I think the writers are watching too many soap operas. Enterprise is suppose to be on a do or die mission, instead it's like an outake of a graduation party. Even if it gets renewed for a 4th season it will still be cancelled if the stories don't improve.
take care
...I fell asleep before the end..
Quote:
the turpid scenes between T'Pol and Trip themselves that destroy the episode
Turgid? Torpid? Torrid? Turbid? Don't mince words, Bones ... Stupid?
The intercrew contact I cared to see was T'Pold and Trip and wuz robbed. The arc-twist I've been waiting for was Lorian as Future Guy and wuz robbed. Archer's still attacking first and thinking last though. Then we hear about a deathbed scene, on which he actually dies ... and wuz robbed!
I enjoyed this ep a bit more when I realized that all the Trip/T'Pol shenanigans this season was meant to lead up to one and only one point: the scene in sickbay where Archer demands to know who fathered T'Pol's kid!
Of course, with Bakula's acting skills, I couldn't really tell if his reaction was one of relief that it wasn't him or consternation that it was Trip. Perhaps Bakula should watch some "Maury" to see how it's done right! ;)
Odd. I thought Lorian was good and "old T'Pol' was bad. Go figure.
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"Unless we learn to live together as brothers [and sisters] we will die together as fools." -Martin Luther King, Jr.
are you guys fking retarded? this was one of the worst episodes. when i saw the old t'pol i swore i heard a collective boo in the entire alpha quadrant. it's not the makeup it's just the acting was horrible. sally field did an excellent job as forest gump's mother as she aged. so it CAN work but you really need to put a lot of work into the acting... and enterprise is not a place for that. tos was shakespearean, tng was, bits of ds9 was, but voy and ent are not. it's terrible through and through. it's a godamn fact.
2ndly the alternate reality's crew in general is terribly done. none of the characters on the other ship had any real emotions.
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LET THEM DIE!!!
...more episodes this season, that is.
I gotta go with Deus on this one. It's like we've been going down an exciting 40-story drop on a roller coaster for the past few weeks, only last night it's like the coaster ran into an enormous pile of fluffy pillows. Lots of fluff in this episode.
That's not to say it was all bad, though. The mess hall scene (I love watching them repairing it in the background) was really cute. Jolene pulled one out of her hat, even though she looked like Jabba the Hutt's grandmother. Having "present" and "future" T'Pol meet each other was a nice touch, and her exposition about Trip and learning to deal with her emotions was a nice taste of what might be to come. I think it gave her a fresh perspective on what is going on now in her life and how she may be able to handle things differently.
Nice exchanges between T’Pol and Trip. She needs him right now, and she’s pushing him away. I’ve always found the idea of the first Terran/Vulcan interspecies relationship to be interesting, and while TPTB have stumbled a few times with this plot thread, I can really see this going somewhere.
Degra… you gotta love this guy. Randy is really the final piece bringing this all to a head. He is able to assert to us the stress of what he is going through, with the face of a worried politician much like those we see on CNN in recent days. Who would have thought that at the season premier, that “face in the council” would become such an integral part of this story? He is right up there with Jeffrey Coombs, in my humble opinion.
As for the rest, well some of it was kind of sloppy. I had little to no interest in those people on board the “future” Enterprise, which surprised me because I was really looking forward to this episode. The half human/half Vulcan captain was so unmemorable (so much so that I can’t even remember his name), that he took what could have been an exciting and thought provoking premise and dragged it all the way down to the level of the “Enterprise does Risa” episode. Spock was half human too, but he was never as boring as this guy. You never saw any ounce of balancing his emotions with logic; all we got was a dull and irrational character. When your main guest star in an episode puts you to sleep, it puts the episode to sleep. When I think more about it, I did like a lot of this episode, but that guy just ruined much of it for me.
Deus, I respect you and your opinions. I wish you would do the same. When you insult people who happen to like certain aspects of this show, by calling us teenage girls and the like, it really cheapens your argument. I’m all for people speaking their mind, but insults make you come across like just another one of the “bashers.” All in all though, great review. Dead on. Let’s hope this one was an anomaly.
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"A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
-Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
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"The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
-Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
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Randy is definetly a good actor, it's hard to say how good because he hasn't gotten the chance to show the range of Jeffrey Coombs or Andrew Robinson for example but he's certainly taken an average character and put him way up there.
The future Enterprise characters by contrast were boring and not terribly interesting, but that's often the case, including in Children of Time. It's hard to create lots of compelling new characters off the bat and Star Trek is particularly bad at it as its numerous Aliens of the Week will testify. Which is why I said the future Enterprise should have been more focused on existing Enterprise characters instead of ones pulled out of a hat.
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Insults? LOL that's just scathing writing. Most of the major paper reviewers are always pretty harsh with scathing commentary in their reviews. I've seen a lot worse reading about current films in the LA Weekly, Hollywood Reporter, and more just this week, LOL.
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It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
Halen. "The Dream is Over."
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...doesn't make it right. Like I say, be critical of the material, but don't get all nasty with people who have a different opinion. I will admit, this was pretty toned down for Deus, but it still irks me and diminishes the quality of and integrity of the review. If something is bad enough, it should be bad enough on it's own and not require belittling other viewers to show how bad it is.
This is no offence to Deus, by the way. The high point of my Friday afternoons at work are reading his posts (goes to show just how exciting my life is), but review the episode, not its viewers.
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"A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
-Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
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"The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
-Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
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LOL
Okay well the comment didn't directly attack a group of viewers so much as it attacked the type of story being told.
Game' for T'Pol and Trip, a game best reserved for the viewership of teenage girls
People who like Trip and T'Pol can view it as a personal attack but at worst it's an indirect one and attacks the Enterprise writers rather than the viewers.
But thanks for the heaps of praise...
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I can live with that. You understand what I mean.
What I would really like to see with Randy is when (and if) our fine little ship gets out of the expanse and into a hopeful Federation Founding-Arc, he would work wonders as an Andorian diplomat or something like that. Put him up there with Coombs, who is really good working with another guest star, i.e. Weyoun and Damar.
A part I would really REALLY like to see him play is a Romulan commander of some sort. There's just something about his face. But if we want to keep with continuity (and why start now) this would have to just be a pipe dream... unless the writers found a way to be clever enough to have a recurring Romulan character that the audience can see during a Romulan War arc, but the characters in the show never make visual contact with.
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"A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
-Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
----
"The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
-Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
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I think by now continuity has been tossed so far out the window that seeing Romulans would be the least of our problems, but of course the real see issue here is that the Vulcans on Enterprise have become somewhat less violent Romulans but villains nonetheless making the Romulans redundant.
But yes having a Romulan character in a Romulan war arc who is never seen by our characters would be very doable. Besides it could be squeezed in that the character is seen but the Vulcanoid characteristics are kept secret so as not to touch off xenophobia against the Vulcans as in Diane Carey's Enterprise book.
Deus, once again you are too harsh. The lunch room meeting where Reed takes a different course than the one history suggested was well done. If the writers remember his change of heart in the future, he could become a more interesting, multi-dimensional character.
And, I really liked the idea of using the transporter as a weapon to disassemble an attacking vessel. I've giggled about possibilities with this ever since.
Trip-T'Pol relationship stuff could last a long time, and still be interesting. It took Ross and Rachel ten seasons to figure their relationship out. I could let ENT run for ten!
The most telling comment was Helens. Too many commericials interupted the story flow. The problem seemed more pronounced with this ep than others. ENT is UPN's cash cow. It produces income with little or no investment in promotion, relying on a committed fan base to pay for ENT, plus. If you'd like to save ENT, call UPN and provide them with whatever incentive you feel motivated to provide for continuing into a fourth season. See http://SaveEnterprise.com.
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And if you'll note I did praise the lunch room meeting but the Trip T'Pol relationship bit is ridiculous for anyone who does like Vulcan continuity and as far as Friends, Ross and Rachel goes, good riddance. I've never understood the soap operatic impulse to drag out some couple's mating dance for years. I didn't even like Odo and Kira, I thought it was strongest when Odo kept his feelings hidden.
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Quote:
And if you'll note I did praise the lunch room meeting but the Trip T'Pol relationship bit is ridiculous for anyone who does like Vulcan continuity.....
Ummmm, Sarek and Amanda? What rules of continuity are being broken? I never held the Vulcans up on a pedestal so it doesn't bother me a whit. If you look at the totality of Vulcans as they are presented in Trek, you come to realize that Vulcans have always done whatever the hell they wanted to do and rationalized it away. I shake my head at the thought of Vulcan continuity. After green blood, pointed ears and the Vulcan neck pinch--there isn't any. As far as Ross and Rachel, I lost interest in "Friends" the 17th time they broke up six years ago. Not a valid analogy.
Deus, I suspect you don't care for romance on Trek period and that no pairing would satisfy you. Some folks can't tolerate romance in their sci-fi. C'est la vie. Different strokes. Myself, I found Odo and Kira surprisingly poignant for a "Sci-fi couple."
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I won't deny that I'm no fan of romance on TV just as you are a fan of it but I would point you to a number of things.
First of all romance on Star Trek has never worked too well even if you're feeling generous. Consider Kirk and Rand, Troi and Riker, Troi and Worf, Worf and Dax, Kira and Odo, Dax and Bashir, Rom and Leeta, Paris and Bellana, Seven and Chakotay, Kes and Neelix...how many of these couples actually worked? Seriously. The fact of the matter is that Star Trek doesn't do romance well.
Second of all the problem with Trip and T'Pol is that rather than Trip becoming more attuned to Vulcans as Amanda did, T'Pol is becoming more humanized. And humanized in very sleady and degrading ways. Rather than learning to appreciate the virtues of emotions, we mainly get nudity and drug use. In other words cheap tittiliation.
Continuity has been broken so many times with regards to Vulcans that it's barely even worth listing the times and places and I leave it to Jadzia Dax to stop by and do since she has more time to author 20 page posts than I do.
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Unfortunately Jadzia will start offering the personal insults like my good buddy, TRexx, below who follows me from web site to web site to convince me of the error of my ways. I think he has a crush on me. LOL! People have started to notice.
What is and isn't slezy is highly subjective. I can't get offended by the nudity on Trek because it's so mild compared to everything else on the air. If you ever happen to see the Ewan McGregor/Emily Mortimer flick "Young Adam," you will never be shocked at the mild mannered sexual situations on Trek ever again. ;) I promise. O.Deus, some fans put the Vulcans on a pedestal and some don't. I'm one who doesn't so I can't get all worked up about the "broken rules" of how Vulcans are supposed to behave. There aren't any rules. There is much "fanon" about Vulcans that is offensive to many a fan's expectation when they perceive it as being broken but Vulcans have always done exactly what they pleased and rationalized it away. They always have--all the way back to Spock who committed mutiny rather than simply explain the situation about Captain Pike, the Talosians and their power of illusion to Kirk. Vulcans do what they wish. Some fans have a very strict interpretation of how Vulcans are supposed to behave; that's cool and the gang but not everyone feels as such. As far as Trek and romance goes, it's been hit and miss but it hasn't all been horrible, IMHO--Kira and Odo being a notable exception. Eh, we'll have to agree to disagree. I am curious though. If T'Pol behaved exactly as she has behaved all season but her character was an Andorian or Ikaaran or whatever, would you perceive it as sleazy? Or would it not bother you at all? I was curious as to whether it's the actual behavior or the fact that it's a Vulcan doing it that irks you? I'm not busting your chops. I'm genuinely curious. I could appreciate Trip becoming more in tune with what it means to be Vulcan. I do think his showing genuine concern for her at the beginning of E2 was a lovely change of pace. I must admit I'm at a loss as to how that can be considered "sleazy."
I can see how some folks aren't into the will they or won't they aspect? Different strokes and all.
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Well I've had my own negative run ins with Jadzia but I've gotten past the point where I feel like arguing in nasty ways over Trek. Anyone who starts throwing out insults during a Star Trek discussion has clear 'issues'
As far as sleaze goes, I'm hardly shocked by it because it's explicitly sexual. It pales in comparison to what plenty of other shows had done. The problem isn't that it's sleazy because it's explicit but that it's sleazy because it's cheap and smells of desperate pandering. It doesn't display T'Pol that way because it's a natural outgrowth of the material but because sex sells. And that along with their crude and brute force way of doing it is what makes it sleazy.
As far as Vulcans go, yes there are rules. Vulcans may at times break those rules but they do so again in consistent ways and Spock again was half human and not a full Vulcan.
I am curious though. If T'Pol behaved exactly as she has behaved all season but her character was an Andorian or Ikaaran or whatever, would you perceive it as sleazy? Or would it not bother you at all? I was curious as to whether it's the actual behavior or the fact that it's a Vulcan doing it that irks you? I'm not busting your chops. I'm genuinely curious.
Well we can go back to 7 of 9 who was the explicit prototype for T'Pol and the view that the way she was portrayed was sleazy even though she wasn't Vulcan and as an ex-Borg there was no set way for her to act. The key thing here is that a character is taken and exploited and promoted in a crudely amateurishly sexual way that panders to a particular demographic and that is a situation that is far worse with T'Pol than with 7 of 9. Both because TPTB have gone to far more extreme lenghts and because it violates Vulcan continuity.
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Quote:
Well we can go back to 7 of 9 who was the explicit prototype for T'Pol and the view that the way she was portrayed was sleazy even though she wasn't Vulcan and as an ex-Borg there was no set way for her to act.
That's true, but somehow I fail to see how any Borg could find walking around in 4" heels to be "efficient". :)
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"Oh, I'll wake up
To any sound of engines,
Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep
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Interesting. I thank you for your response. I don't agree because I've found Vulcan behavior to be so wildly contradictory throughout the five Trek incarnations but that's nothing to argue about. I found 7 of 9 far more tedious--in fact I quit watching VOY altogether before its run ended for many reasons--than T'Pol. I can see where you're coming from about the fair lady Vulcan. TPTB been doing the sex object tightrope walk with her character since day one, with Bounty being the most egregious transgression, but she's had better moments. However, I think folks might be a little more receptive now if she hadn't been dressed in the catsuit and been the designated sex object from day one. Balancing a female's sexuality with her core character is a delicate chore in sci-fi and especially in Trek given its history. People are hung up more about women and sex than about men and sex. I actually find her to be toned down this season in comparison to one and two. I found the neuropressure too funny and silly in a charming sort of way to be offended because I thought it was going somewhere. I guess my question is this if you'll indulge me one more time, O.Deus: Were the neuropressure not an issue and Trip and T'Pol hadn't done the deed (or it had only been alluded to without us seeing the "foreplay"), would you still be so down on their screen time together? I'm speaking specifically of their last scene in "The Forgotten" and their first scene together in E2. ENT is in such sore need of honest emotional connection between two people: I was impressed by CT's and JB's work. It reminded me in a good way of CT's scene with Combs in "Proving Ground," only on a deeper emotional level. I feel CT and JB "connect" remarkably well, just as well in a fully clothed state. Plus, quite frankly, I found it refreshing that someone finally cared enough about T'Pol to drop by her quarters and ask her if she was okay. It didn't reek of a guy trying to get into someone's pants if I may be so crass. Were it not for the sexual component would you have found these scenes.....turgid? Is it too much emotional connection for a Vulcan to share with anyone? I'm just curious. I've noticed from reading your reviews that you and I definitely see episodes differently. ;)
Thanks for your input.
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Well to go back a bit more generally I'd say that first of all I think there's a certain oddity in YPTB bringing in frozen asexual female characters in provocative clothing who offer sexuality without emotion or relationship. And the reality is that T'Pol was brought aboard with the same purpose as Seven and that in and of itself is offensive. It's one thing to have a character who can be sexual and another thing to have a character who is there for that purpose.
I'm not a big fan of the Trip\T'Pol thing or relationships in general but I think there was certainly a much better way to handle it than the erotic massages and the cheap innunendo. Certainly more believeable ones considering that Trip had lost his sister and T'Pol had cut herself off from her career and other Vulcans by going off with Archer. Both were wounded and somewhat isolated.
But the gratitous nudity, the massages reek of creative retardation and cheap sleaze not because they're offensive but because they are clumsy, give no thought to the characters but only to manipulate the characters for cheap ratings gimmicks. They don't form believeable relationships but an attempt to pander to both genders in different ways without any creative integrity.
Or that's my view anyway....lol
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Quote from MoulinRouge to O. Deus:
Unfortunately Jadzia will start offering the personal insults like my good buddy, TRexx, below who follows me from web site to web site to convince me of the error of my ways. I think he has a crush on me. LOL! People have started to notice.
You're welcome to make a fool of yourself on boards that I don't post on.
Jadzia appears to be wise to you.
Quote:
There aren't any rules.
That one statement summarizes your profound density, toward many things, and explains your chronic hypocrisy.
Sensible storytelling certainly does require "rules". Structure requires rules. Cause and effect require rules. A fictional universe, especially sci-fi, requires rules -- otherwise the writer and audience will have no common frame of reference with which to create a "reality."
Star Trek has rules that you show yourself to be utterly oblivious about. I doubt that you grasp more than a fraction of what you see onscreen.
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Shatner says he has penned Kirk's return
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Quote from MoulinRouge to O. Deus:
Ummmm, Sarek and Amanda? What rules of continuity are being broken?
You repeatedly and robotically drop those two names. Are you so oblivious as to think that the Tucker/T'Pol tripe violates Trek continuity because the two aren't the same species?
The issue isn't interspecies coupling -- it's about T'Pol's mutant-Vulcan behavior, which B&B flaunt by forcing the Tucker/T'Pol freak show.
Quote:
I never held the Vulcans up on a pedestal so it doesn't bother me a whit.
When it comes to understanding literary archetypes, Star Trek Vulcans in particular, you haven't shown "a whit" with which to be bothered. You prefer to speak in ignorance of the subject. Ignorance can be bliss, so I hear.
Elsewhere, you've said that you don't generally care for the sci-fi TV genre. You've said that sharp ENT writing isn't as important to you as gratuitous titillation -- so you don't care about Star Trek as quality sci-fi. All you've ever shown a passion for is semi-nude Tucker (Connor Trinneer), preferably diddling any female who'll have him -- even when he exploits the brain damaged and emotionally stunted.
Quote:
I shake my head at the thought of Vulcan continuity. After green blood, pointed ears and the Vulcan neck pinch--there isn't any.
A head shaken, yet not stirred from a coma of philistinism. 
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Shatner says he has penned Kirk's return
It had two main fucntions.
1, a fun, sci-fi comic-booky episode before the calamatous season finalie.
2, The ep finally let Kira know about Odo's feelings.
And it preformed these function charmingly, while also being a rare perfectly logical time travel story. And suspensful, with real moral dielemas. I really believed that Sisko was going to crash the Defiant again. And Odo linking with his older self. That's real drama.
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"You see stars that clear have been dead for years/
But the idea just lives on..."
-Connor O'Berst
"I don't mind the streets, but it's wet tonight."--Maya Keyes, after being throw out by her father Alan Keyes for coming out
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Children of Time wasn't a bad episode but it wasn't a great one either and the high points of it remained Worf and O'Brien's portrayals as opposing the new life until they gave way to it finally. By contrast in E2, much of the struggle seemed to be oriented to Lorian, a guest star whom we are not likely to ever see again.
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Personally I love "Children of Time" and think it's another one of the many, many great DS9 episodes. The dilemma is pretty fascinating and although I found the ultimate decision of the crewmembers to sacrifice themselves pretty wacked out, the episode had no shortage of classic STAR TREK moralizing and intellectualizing.
Haven't seen "E2" yet.
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It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
Halen. "The Dream is Over."
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Yeah, I loved "Children of Time." Interesting Odo/Kira interation as well.
But I disagree that the decision was "Wacked out." Kira's motivation was pretty sound. I think if you could sacrifice your live to save 8,000 you might. As for the rest of the DS9 crew, sacrificing a way of life for 8,000 people isn't too much of a stretch either.
Heheheh, this is exactly the review I expected - I won the contest! (located elsewhere on Trekweb's BBS). As I expected, Deus didn't like the episode because we've seen the ideas before. He says the team needs to improve their writing skills, also that E2's future is not going to exsist because the show will get canceled beforehand. He rates the episode below 7. I suppose most people knew this was coming.
I disagree with much of what Deus writes in this review. I think Jolene's portrayal of an old woman didn't work. It was probably the best she could deliver and it's not her fault. The same happened when Terry Farrell played an old woman - it didn't work. The same goes for Kate Mulgrew in Voyagers "Endgame" although that was almost believeable. But it seems these kind of scenes rarely work for women.
I think the actor playing Trip's son did a great job and fits perfectly into the role. Certainly a performance just as good as Randy playing Degra.
I disagree with Deus about the production values. I think the corridors looked great and the makeup was pretty good. Nothing wrong here.
E2 left me with a good mood so I give it 10/10. In comparison, the last two episodes (Damage & Forgotten) I rated 8 out of 10.
I agree with Deus on a few points. But it doesn't hurt the episode in my opinion. The only thing I can point a finger at, is the idea of a ship becoming a generation ship .. it seems far fetched.
I have to say I think you're being a little too hard on this episode. There was an aspect I especially did not like that you didn't mention... Too many commercials! It seems they packed this episode with much more frequent commercial interruptions. Much more than last week. Kept breaking up the story.
I think Trip - Tpol is an interesting development that can be used to extend stories about relationships and conflict and resolution and closure. That's what STar Trek is about, IMHO.
The casting of the son of Trip was not good. Aged Tpol was excellent. I wanted to see Trip and Old Tpol meet. I think it would have been a poignant moment.
There were possibilities for lots of poignant moments. Too bad the writers missed them.
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