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"Damage" Offers Compelling Choice, Suffers Weak Subplots Says Deus

By O. Deus / 00:01, 23 April 2004 / ENTERPRISE Reviews

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Reviews Ex Deus

Title: "Damage"

Overall: 7.5
Performances: 8
Writing: 6.5
Direction: 7
FX & Prod Value: 8.5

Synopsis: Enterprise tries to recover from its pounding by stealing a warp coil. The Xindi Council bickers and T'Pol has to learn to 'just say no'.

Review: The damage in the title of this episode refers to both the physical damage we can see in the tears and devastation on the Enterprise hull and the moral damage sustained by Archer and members of his crew over the term of the Xindi mission. It's an episode that lingers over the damage Archer, T'Pol and even the Xindi see in themselves as much as it does over the lightless and beaten interiors of Enterprise itself.

The scene of the Xindi council calling off the attack early on dampens far too much of the tension too quickly, as it might have been much more helpful to keep the audience wondering why the Xindi called off the attack and whether they might
return for a while. Still, "Damage" does a credible job of showing the beating Enterprise has taken and closes as it began with a devastated ship not healed by any quick fix or technobabble solution.

While STAR TREK, particularly on TV, will never top the sense of devastation Enterprise experienced after Khan's attack, crystalized in the awful image of Scotty standing helplessly in the turbolift with a bloody body cradled in his arms, "Damage" provides
some excellent... well, damage. The exploding EPS conduit over the heads of the senior officers followed by debris raining down during the briefing is a particularly nice touch; Archer looking over the covered bodies in sickbay is a more understated moment, but arguably a more effective one that hardens both his determination and pain.

The truly inspired touch, though, is the damaged alien vessel with the warp coil that Enterprise must raid in order to stop the Xindi weapon. Unlike DS9's much-hyped "In The Pale Moonlight," Archer faces a genuinely impossible moral dilemma because circumstances give him no choice but to carry out an immoral act against innocent victims. This puts it closer to the depth of great TOS episodes like "A Private Little War," that require an immoral act for a pragmatic outcome.

When Archer's team raids the alien vessel, it visually suggests the raids on
Enterprise in "Anomaly" and "Rajiin," and thus the victims become the victimizers, as happens all too often today. Archer's final confrontation with the alien captain is brief but effective. Throughout the course of an agonizing year Archer has gone from being naive and arrogantly optimistic to a hard-driven and wounded man who acts not out of hope but pragmatism. The scientist and explorer has become the unwilling soldier.

All in all "Damage" effectively shows the price Enterprise has paid and the way
in which Archer and the crew respond to it. However the other two stories circling
around the episode, namely T'Pol Gone Wild and the Xindi council debating Archer's
claims, are a good deal weaker. The Xindi Council scenes in general to tend to deflate too much of the tension and claustrophobic atmosphere that makes for the episode's strongest scenes. Brannon Braga and Rick Berman should have learned from George Lucas's THE PHANTOM MENACE, which demonstrated that political bickering in government offices doesn't make for the best drama. Worse yet, the Xindi Council scenes represent exactly what much of "Damage" avoids, easy and quick fixes.

The Xindi Council members moving from genocide to freeing Archer and letting Enterprise go is just too implausible. Degra argues that Archer had provided proof where the Sphere Builder has not, but that is even more absurd; Archer did not prove his claims about the sphere-builders or their ambitions. All he did was prove that he might
have access to time travel, which the Xindi already know the Sphere-Builders do.
Archer did nothing to demonstrate or prove humanity's good intentions and at the same
time it's also completely implausible that Degra and the others would be so committed
to wiping out humanity without a single shred of evidence that Earth presented a threat, but just on the word of the Sphere-Builder.

Randy Oglesby continues to deliver strong performances as Degra and Tucker Smallwood is quite good too. The Sphere-Builder from the future pacing through the Xindi Council is eerie, even if her performance is so transparently malevolent that
it's absurd that anyone would take her claims seriously. Compare that to the more
subtle female shapeshifter on DS9 who didn't have to act like she was about to bake Hansel and Gretel in a giant oven to convey the presence of evil.

T'Pol's story is something else entirely. Namely an excercise in contemptible
stupidity and unforiveable ignorance. We had good reason to believe that sooner or
later TPTB would tie in something involving the anomalies and Trellium-D to T'Pol's bizarre behavior in order to get them off the hook with the STAR TREK fans Braga derides as 'Continuity Pornographers.'

But it was difficult to imagine a storyline in which we are told that Vulcans need to take drugs in order to experience emotions when in fact Vulcans experience emotions far more intense than humans--the very reason that requires them to maintain such strict control. The idea that a Vulcan needs to take drugs to experience emotions is as insane as saying that a weightlifter needs to take drugs in order to be able to put down barbells rather than to lift them up. The difficulty is in suppressing emotions, the emotions Vulcans experience all the time and must continually struggle to control using their mental disciplines. Trellium-D degrades those disciplines but those disciplines are a voluntary
excercise to begin with. It simply makes absolutely no sense at all.

Of all the aspects of STAR TREK, Vulcans have taken the worst beating from ENTERPRISE, first being cast as villains plotting to obstruct our heroes, as militarists, as
prudes, metaphorical homophobes, mind rapists and just about any nasty thing imaginable. But T'Pol's portrayal this season has really hit a whole new low. It is, of course, difficult to top the repulsive depiction of T'Pol in "Bounty," running through the halls half-undressed in a mating frenzy and having to be hunted down by Enterprise security teams, but season three has certainly been working up to it.

The bonus sexism of a woman being left in command on a ship while becoming unfocused and then hysterical, only to be relieved by the male Captain is yet another of
ENTERPRISE's thoughtful additions to the STAR TREK legacy that we will undoubtedly
treasure for years to come. Somewhere Harlan Ellison, who has spent countless hours over the past few decades shrilly complaining because Gene Roddenberry wouldn't let him portray a crew members as drug users and dealers is undoubtedly quite happy right now. Perhaps next season we can look forwards to Trip tripping out on E or Archer on crack? After all, we've now opened the door and we might as well step all the way through.

"Damage" is strongest when it focuses on the moral and physical dilemmas
of the Enterprise crew, rather than the more soap operatic elements. Unfortunately, along with the physical and emotional damage to the Enterprise and its crew, the episode suffers from its own damage as well.

Next week: There are only 5 new episodes left. Count em, that's 5 new episodes.

69 comments Post New | Help

Makes No Sense | Report this post to moderator
By: Klytus (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:04:39 on Apr 27, 2004

You're absolutely right. T'Pol taking something that will eventually kill her like any other drug addiction makes no sense at all. She has all the classis symptoms of drug addiction. She was in denial about her self control. Continually increasing the dosage to achieve the desired effect only to be left wanting. Fortuneatly for her she finally hit bottom. In the cargo bay I think. No pun intended.

Thank goodness for Phlox. The emotional stability of the entire senior staff depends on his care and guidance. Because of his steady and calm demeanor, he has become the defacto counselor. There is no one else.

The crew of Enterprise including T'Pol makes a lot of mistakes. Often slow on their own learning curves. They usually find themselves overwhelmed and defensive. Archer has gotten to the point now that he's even wary whenever a new ship hails Enterprise. But that's the beauty of Enterprise and unique for Star Trek. The crew is allowed to fail. To be flawed. It's up to Berman and Braga, on how complex they want these characters to be. More is better for my tastes.

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T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:11:26 on Apr 25, 2004

Deus, I have to say that I think you completely misread this entire sub-plot. Here's my take on it based on what Phlox himself stated in the episode. Trellium D works by physically damaging the brain. T'Pol's emmotional control is something that requires her full mental capacity (as you yourself say), when she uses the drug to take it away she is making it impossible for herself to supress her emotions the way she once could. Thus the effect. Makes sense to me.

--------

"Time is a face on the water."

-Stephen King, The Dark Tower Series-

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RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:51:10 on Apr 25, 2004

Except that makes no sense since if T'Pol wanted to experience emotions, she would need only to cease her mental discipline suppressing the emotions.

It would be the equivalent of saying a weightlifter needs to cut off his hand to put the barbell down.

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- RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
  By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:27:48 on Apr 25, 2004
  
  Yeah, but Deus that would be the hard way. T'Pol has been trained all her life to supress those emotions. Her brain is always doing it on some level. To undo all those mental barriers would require serious effort on her part. Mental barriers are strange things, and when we put up our own for that amount of time it always going to be difficult, even if Vulcan emotions are very powerful. Its the same as humans who repress powerful memories. Once they've done it, its going to take serious effort to take down. Whereas drugs are the 'easy' way.
  
  --------
  
  "Time is a face on the water."
  
  -Stephen King, The Dark Tower Series-
  
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  - RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
    By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:10:59 on Apr 26, 2004
    
    The control takes effort, removing the control does not. We repeatedly see Vulcans fighting to control emotions, we do not see them fighting not to control emotions.
    
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    - RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
      By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:15:37 on Apr 26, 2004
      
      Of course you are right. But I would still argue that T'Pol has these barriers, which granted do take effort to keep up(meditation and so forth) in place at a mostly subconcious level, similar to breathing--they'd have to be or she'd never be able to do anything else. That means that in order to take them down, she does need to make special effort--the same way that I need to put special effort into not breathing. However this doesn't change the fact that you are mostly right, she could just stop meditating and those subconcious barriers would likely start to errode. But drugs offer something else, they offer the chance for a scapegoat(as another poster pointed out). Something to blame her problems on, her interest in emotions on.
      
      --------
      
      "Time is a face on the water."
      
      -Stephen King, The Dark Tower Series-
      
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      - RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
        By: FrequencySpike (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:30:45 on Apr 27, 2004
        
        Yes, thank you for acknowledging that.
        
        --------
        
        "Well, I wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it."
        
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  - RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
    By: Joe P (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 18:23:04 on Apr 25, 2004
    
    That's how I interpreted it as well. It's kind of like asking soldiers to unlearn their years of training and combat experience.
    
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- RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
  By: FrequencySpike (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:35:00 on Apr 25, 2004
  
  It is the classic psychological need for a scapegoat to represent what cannot be accepted about oneself. I think what's really going on is that T'Pol used her drug of choice to experience emotions so that when she sobered up and regretted it she had the drug to blame and not herself. Remember, her first exposure to TrelliumD was an accident. After that, when she needed the fix, it was easier to blame the drug than to admit that she wanted to feel the emotions.
  
  --------
  
  "Well, I wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it."
  
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Damage and Deus' Review | Report this post to moderator
By: zak (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:48:30 on Apr 24, 2004

I agree with most of what you say re DAMAGE and it certainly kept my attention throughout, and most especially when either focused on the ethical dilemmas or when action was unfolding. Recognizing that one can't cite every scene in an episode in a review, there were two scenes I found defining and pivotal for both the major and sub-plots of the episode and those were the two scenes with Phlox. Interestingly, it was Phlox's comments/reaction that focused each problem- one for Archer, one for T'Pol. I've found the sub-plot with T'pol quite believable and understandable. Vulcans aren't after all totally invulnerable to everything. Certainly SPOCK never was.Phlox's reactions were particularly interesting because he clearly recognized that sometimes things move into unexpected and definitely not hoped for directions and his reactions, I thought, coupled with what Archer and later T'Pol were confronting brought an interesting clarity to a reality in which we have exactly the same sorts of dilemmas, though all too often we don't see them as they really are.
Again, I enjoyed your review and thought it right on target (and how anyone could find any part of DAMAGE insipid is not in my universe.)

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RE: Damage and Deus' Review | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:52:37 on Apr 25, 2004

Well considering that same person has a link to a Cancel Enterprise petition...I ain't nones too shocked about it...

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T'Pol subplot was good | Report this post to moderator
By: sb2004 (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:37:15 on Apr 24, 2004

I disagree completely with Deus' take on the T'Pol subplot. I thought it was incredible. We know T'Pol isn't like other Vulcans and this proves it. She has become seduced by the dark side of humans ... something foreshadowed as early as Fusion in season one and addressed directly in last season's Cease Fire ... and is now paying the price.

What would have NOT worked for me is if the b-plot had followed the spoilers, which were surprisingly inaccurate. The spoilers said that T'Pol was using T-D in order to build up immunity. In other words, she was becoming a martyr in order to save her crew, just as Spock might have done.

BOOORRRRRING!

To have T'Pol instead take the selfish route had me dropping my jaw to the floor. It was unexpcted and it was gutsy and it impressed me to no end.

Likewise, having Archer act like one of the many villains we saw on TNG or Voyager was a fantastic twist and one I could never have imagined seeing. That airlock scene in Anomaly could have been, well, an anomaly. But it wasn't.

Between Azati Prime and Damage, Enterprise is doing what many people have complained for 3 years that it hasn't done -- given us a wholly new spin on the characters and, even moreso give 40 years of same old, same old -- unpredictability.

Alex

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RE: T'Pol subplot was good | Report this post to moderator
By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:49:49 on Apr 25, 2004

Quote:
What would have NOT worked for me is if the b-plot had followed the spoilers, which were surprisingly inaccurate. The spoilers said that T'Pol was using T-D in order to build up immunity. In other words, she was becoming a martyr in order to save her crew, just as Spock might have done.

Quote:
BOOORRRRRING!

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To have T'Pol instead take the selfish route had me dropping my jaw to the floor. It was unexpcted and it was gutsy and it impressed me to no end.

T'Pol taking T-D was unexpected and "gutsy" enough on it's own, without having the poorly thought out motive there. For one thing, she didn't need Trellium D to experience emotions, all she had to do was stop supressing them, as O.Deus has already said about 3 times. I might have acctually liked the storyline had she been trying to build an immunity, because that would be a beleivable motive. And, if they wanted to do the exact same story believably, they could have reversed it; T'Pol experiences on-going difficulty with her emotions after some permanent damage caused by the first incident with trellium, so she takes a drug that helps her supress her emotions, but is also very dangerous to her. That would be believable.

--------

Dig deep piles of rubble and ruins
Towering overhead both far and wide
There's unknown tools for World War III
Einstein said 'We'll use rocks on the other side'

No survivors!

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Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
By: rfjason (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:20:27 on Apr 23, 2004

Introducing a major breach of ethics on the Captain is not inspired, it's insipid.

The minute you have a character ignore what he knows to be moral and just, you assassinate that character as any sort of hero protagonist. You destroy everything that he is.

Whether it's a story, a real life event, or our own personal lives, we have a duty to obey our own set of ethics and morals. This has been true for over 3,000 years. Every generation has learned the consequences of choosing to not do the right thing: disaster.

In the Star Trek universe, the pinnacle moment of the breach of ethics is WWIII. After that, humanity starts to understand what it means to behave as a moral being. By the time of ENT, this should be a well-grounded fiber in all of humanity. No human being, especially one chosen to be in a point of authority, should be making unethical decisions, no matter what the event.

Yes, I realize that 7 billion humans are in the balance. But it's also a deep understanding that also goes back 3,000 years that to be a moral being, you must play by your own rules. When you save humanity by committing atrocities, you only pave the way for more atrocities to be committed (as T'Pol so lucidly pointed out before diving into full blown crack-whore mode.)

Now, as a matter of practical story-telling, this decision was piss poor. I'm sure the writers said, "yeah this'll make Archer edgy because he had to make tough choices in war!" But all it did was destroy his character's moral fiber, and make him look like a closed-eyed moron. For a better story, have Archer negotiate a taxi ride with the aliens. They ferry Archer to the rendezvous in exchange for some T-D. Now, you have druggie T'Pol in a position of command, etc. etc. while Archer DIDN'T VIOLATE ANY ETHICS TO GET HIS MISSION DONE. I mean, I'm no Captain, but even I saw this alternative right away.

The story and writing behind this episode just flat sucked.

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AT LAST! I CAN FINALLY LIVE MY DREAM OF STARTING A PUNK BAND CALLED "DEAD REAGANS!"

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Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:55:17 on Apr 23, 2004

No real choice there.

Anyone who would choose to wipe out the human race rather than steal a warp drive is not only a blinkered fool who values personal image over the lives of billions of people but a collaborator in genocide.

Anyone incapable of grasping that there are sometimes stakers bigger more important than personal ethics and that sometimes you have to do something wrong for the greater good does not belong in positions of responsibility. Starship Captains are not priests or saints. They are men and women charged with a task greater than themselves.

a better story, have Archer negotiate a taxi ride with the aliens. They ferry Archer to the rendezvous in exchange for some T-D.

Which will still leave Enterprise crippled while going into what could be a major battle. Umm...no that's not a good idea.

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- RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
  By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:03:38 on Apr 24, 2004
  
  Quote from O. Deus:
  Anyone who would choose to wipe out the human race rather than steal a warp drive is not only a blinkered fool who values personal image over the lives of billions of people but a collaborator in genocide.
  
  Anyone incapable of grasping that there are sometimes stakers bigger more important than personal ethics and that sometimes you have to do something wrong for the greater good does not belong in positions of responsibility. Starship Captains are not priests or saints. They are men and women charged with a task greater than themselves.
  
  Yet that Starship Captain values his immediate friends more than the billions of lives on Earth. We've been shown how frequent and deadly the spacial anomalies are -- yet Archer has forgone the protection of Trellium-D armor in order to keep T'Pol aboard, jeopardizing the ship and mission, thus trivializing all life on Earth.
  
  ENT's characters (plot-driven puppets) are as schizophrenic as the writing.
  
  --------------
  William Shatner @ The Wayne Brady Show
  
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  - RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
    By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:44:20 on Apr 24, 2004
    
    That's a valid point but Archer never came up against a wall to the extent of having to make a choice between T'Pol and the survival of humanity.
    
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    - RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
      By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:21:49 on Apr 25, 2004 | (3)
      
      Quote from O.Deus:
      That's a valid point but Archer never came up against a wall to the extent of having to make a choice between T'Pol and the survival of humanity.
      
      There was that "wall" to Archer's mission when it came to proceeding without warp drive, realizing the great distances involved. There'd be an obvious "wall" to the mission if it came to proceeding without hull plating (or weapons), realizing the likelihood and severity of Xindi and pirate attacks. Without defenses, the next attack could be the last. Preemptive action would be warranted to preserve NX-01/Earth.
      
      Likewise, there was such a "wall" the minute it became understood that NX-01 -- thus the mission -- is naked to "attacks" by frequent and deadly anomalies. Ironically, in Damage, we're again reminded of how common and crippling they are, as spatial anomalies are what severely damaged the Illyrian ship, prompting their call for help -- and Trellium-D turns out to be the only bargaining chip that Archer has with the Illyrian Captain.
      
      Archer is hypocritical toward "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few."
      
      --------------
      LeVar Burton @ The Sharon Osbourne Show
      
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      - RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:55:16 on Apr 25, 2004
        
        Except that again here Archer had no choiche. The weapon would be launched in 3 days. His only means of stopping it was to steal the warp drive.
        
        By contrast by foregoing Trellium-D he was raising the risk to his ship and mission but not up again the wall in mkaing it impossible for him to accomplish it. And he is arguably securing the services of a valuable science officer with knowldge of technology significantly beyond earth's.
        
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        RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:57:11 on Apr 26, 2004
        
        Quote:
        And he is arguably securing the services of a valuable science officer with knowldge of technology significantly beyond earth's.
        
        She hasn't contributed one damn thing during this "mission" (including any "knowledge of technology") except her booty.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:12:43 on Apr 26, 2004 | (1)
        
        Right...because she hasn't been acting as science officer throughout this year?
        
        Right, maybe you should actually watch some episodes of Enterprise before commenting on them.
        
        Also it might be helpful if you trimmed down your signature so it doesn't occupy more space than your post, lackless as it might be.
        
        And about the sort of thing you might except from the usual mindless Bash Enterprise crowd.
        
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        RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:17:59 on Apr 27, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Right...because she hasn't been acting as science officer throughout this year?
        
        What interesting insight from her vast experience has she offered this season? She has merely stared into a sensor viewer and spouted out whatever it says.
        
        Quote:
        
        Right, maybe you should actually watch some episodes of Enterprise before commenting on them.
        
        Right, maybe YOU should try paying attention when you watch them. Apparently you don't.
        
        Quote:
        
        Also it might be helpful if you trimmed down your signature so it doesn't occupy more space than your post, lackless as it might be.
        
        Perhaps you need to deal with it and block me if you don't like it. ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        And about the sort of thing you might except from the usual mindless Bash Enterprise crowd.
        
        Must be male PMS time because what you just wrote lacks anything that even approaches meaningful.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:37:24 on Apr 29, 2004
        
        What interesting insight from her vast experience has she offered this season? She has merely stared into a sensor viewer and spouted out whatever it says.
        
        T'Pol's research into the spheres for starters...remember those. lol
        
        Right, maybe YOU should try paying attention when you watch them. Apparently you don't.
        
        I'm not, you are...is always a great comeback.
        
        Perhaps you need to deal with it and block me if you don't like it.
        
        Just a helpfull suggestion that your sig is grossly oversized.
        
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        RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:37:55 on Apr 25, 2004 | (1)
        
        Quote from O. Deus:
        Except that again here Archer had no choiche.
        
        That's what the writer (Phyllis Strong) has Archer say. That's what she wants viewers to believe. Nonsense. The entire dialog between Archer and the Illyrian Captain gets just 85 seconds onscreen, during which time all Archer does is bellow about Earth's death toll. At no point does Archer try to understand what motivates the Illyrians, i.e. what might turn them on to assisting Humanity's cause. Archer has the time to spare to help repair the Illyrian ship, hoping for a return favor, but as a negotiator he's just "Slam-bam, thank you ma'am" -- no foreplay, no Sweet Nothings, no wine, no dinner. No surprise that he gets no results. And Earth now has another enemy.
        
        Damage is yet another example of TPTB trying to script morality and/or drama by making a main character appear laughably incompetent.
        
        And the whole Illyrian thing is awfully contrived. NX-01 is damaged beyond her crew's ability to repair, so along comes a friendly and unsuspecting vehicle with 100% compatible body parts. And we're supposed to believe that the Illyrians haven't encountered of the Xindi? Shran the wandering Miner was promptly told to beat it, or else, when he got close to the Xindi weapon test site -- yet the Illyrians haven't been intercepted and interrogated for entering the red-giant system of a "classified installation"?
        
        The visual effects make the episode watchable. The writing is dreadful, as is too often the case.
        
        Quote:
        By contrast by foregoing Trellium-D he was raising the risk to his ship and mission but not up again the wall in mkaing it impossible for him to accomplish it.
        
        How far would NX-01 get without its hull plating? The first/next encounter with Xindi, or pirates, or a field of planetoids may be the last. Is any one crewman more important than the hull plating that protects the ship and thus the mission?
        
        Forgoing Trellium armor in the Expanse is as irresponsible (to Earth) as deciding to forgo hull plating.
        
        Quote:
        And he is arguably securing the services of a valuable science officer with knowldge of technology significantly beyond earth's.
        
        Archer: "Listen up, crew: That last spatial anomaly burned out all of our weapon and propulsion systems, and it killed Dr. Phlox and Chef. The Xindi were able to complete their weapon and destroy Earth. But, the good news is that we're marooned in the Expanse with the best damn Science Officer and Masseuse that Starfleet ever had!"
        
        Crew: "Yay!"
        
        --------------
        Shatner says he has penned Kirk's return
        
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        RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:03:09 on Apr 25, 2004
        
        The Illyrians are not going to strand themselves 3 years from home and accompany Enterprise on a suicide mission just to help Enterprise no matter what Archer offers. The conversation with the Illyrian captain makes it clear they have clashing interests.
        
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        RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:53:46 on Apr 25, 2004 | (1)
        
        Quote from O. Deus:
        The Illyrians are not going to strand themselves 3 years from home and accompany Enterprise on a suicide mission
        
        You presume that that is the only possible outcome from a proper powwow between reasonable (and mutually in-need) parties. Remove the small talk from Archer's 85-second chat with the Illyrian Captain and their hard bargaining starts and ends in less than a minute. There was no meeting of the minds. What potential risk or reward could a stranger sell you on, cold turkey? The bar of trust, or personal motivation, can go up (or down) after you've spent some time getting to understand each other's big-picture goals -- so such a critical negotiation shouldn't be terminated in less time than it takes to share a cup of coffee.
        
        Obtaining the seemingly unobtainable can be all about the initial approach, the subsequent negotiation, and the ongoing attention to respective values. Thoughtfully sussing out a potential partner can be at least as advantageous as trying to understand one's enemy. Metaphorically speaking, Archer behaved like an aggressively horny frat-boy, pushing to get directly to "third base" with the first friendly female who wanders by. Objectifying the owner of something that you desperately want -- e.g. by effectively reducing them to the immediate value of their vagina or their warp coil -- won't get you far with anyone who has their own esteem and agenda.
        
        Seems I'm addressing this same topic in two threads here, so I'll drop this one in favor of posting on the Xindi Council discussion board.
        
        --------------
        
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        RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:15:22 on Apr 26, 2004
        
        Repeating 'reasonable' over and over again doesn't change the fact that nothing Archer has to offer can offset the fact that ultimately what Archer has to offer the Illyrians is a choice between a 3 year trip home they would probably not survive or a one way suicide mission.
        
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        RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:57:56 on Apr 26, 2004
        
        Quote from O. Deus:
        Repeating 'reasonable' over and over again...
        
        I've used the word "reasonable" only once in this entire thread. And I used it to describe the apparent nature of the two species (Human and Illyrian), not to describe the merit of Archer's abrupt proposal.
        
        Quote:
        ...doesn't change the fact that nothing Archer has to offer can offset the fact that ultimately what Archer has to offer the Illyrians is a choice between a 3 year trip home they would probably not survive or a one way suicide mission.
        
        Your foregone conclusions are fatalistic suppositions. You don't know what Degra has arranged for Archer, for example.
        
        If the Illyrian encounter hadn't been so poorly contrived, there could've been a Human/Illyrian cooperation that need not end in either of the grim scenarios you describe.
        
        --------------
        William Shatner @ The Wayne Brady Show
        
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        RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:39:58 on Apr 29, 2004
        
        Your argument comes down to assuming that diplomacy can solve all problems when the fact of the matter is diplomacy can only bridge gaps, it is not a tool for getting anyone to do what you want if it grossly contrary to their interests.
        
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        RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
        By: brad hall (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:30:26 on Apr 26, 2004
        
        I would have done the taxi cab route. Enterprise is not in any shape for a battle against a undamaged starship. I would have had them tow the enterprise to the meating point or take archer there. Then get parts for the warp drive from degra with some repairs. Or if worse comes to worse send a subspace message with the same encrpytion used in the message hoshi found.
        
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RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
By: Sullaban (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:50:13 on Apr 23, 2004

I wonder how many books, episodes, novels, short stories, Deus "The Critic" has written. Or is he just like Simon Cowell on American Idol?

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- RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
  By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:56:30 on Apr 25, 2004
  
  I wonder how many books, episodes, novels, short stories, Deus "The Critic" has written.
  
  7269 all told. Thanks for asking.
  
  Or is he just like Simon Cowell on American Idol?
  
  Yes, except I'm much more handome.
  
  Any more questions?
  
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  - RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
    By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:00:45 on Apr 26, 2004
    
    Deus, you crack me up, piss me off, and make my day all at the same time. Do you have a website? Have you really done some writing? I'd like to check out one of your books.
    
    --------
    
    "A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
    -Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
    ----
    "The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
    -Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
    
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    - RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
      By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:52:02 on Apr 29, 2004
      
      Got a temp site here with some scifi humor but only the front page works because I'm lazy and busy
      
      http://www.8ung.at/odeus/
      
      Any r/l writing is done for the CIA of course and is all classified.
      
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      - RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
        By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:55:41 on Apr 29, 2004
        
        You really should publish some stuff. Your wit really comes through in your writing.
        
        --------
        
        "A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
        -Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
        ----
        "The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
        -Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
        
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Boring | Report this post to moderator
By: NAFF (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:16:41 on Apr 23, 2004

Sorry this was just crap.

More Slut Vulcan footage, just for the sake of it.

Simply tedious.

Can't get any worse, though, that's the bright side.

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RE: Boring | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:57:19 on Apr 25, 2004

Um...yes but slut Vulcan footage is what's boosting Enterprise's ratings

Wait you mean it isn't?

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RE: Boring | Report this post to moderator
By: Sullaban (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:41:23 on Apr 24, 2004

I wonder how many episodes critic Deus has scribbled?

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Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:26:01 on Apr 23, 2004 | (1)

I won't go too much into the semantics of whether any Starfleet captain has ever crossed a line as taboo as Archer did on Wednesday, or whether it was very "Star Trek" of him to do so. I will, however, say that this episode was supposed to shock and awe us, and it did just that. Deus is right, this was a situation that had no right answer. Rather than bicker about how convenient it was that there was an alien ship with a compatible warp coil right in the area, one can see that this was in no way a cop out on the part of the writers. It's either sit there and take a month or so to fix the ship enough for it to limp back to Earth (which probably wouldn't exist anymore), or take a chance on this opportunity to finish what they started and complete their mission. Which is the lesser of two evils; Doing something pretty nasty in order to have a chance to save your civilization, or doing nothing and losing the very home you were sent to protect?

While I finally agreed with Archer's decision in the end, I didn't through a lot of this episode. That's what I think the script was trying to convey. I had a very sick feeling in my stomach, from the film noir scene with Phlox to the point where the alien commander was pleading with Archer, almost with tears in his eyes. "I have no choice," can be a very clichéd phrase, but I don't think it was here. When you look at all of his options, he really had no choice.

One little thing for Deus, though (don't I always have one?) About T'Pol needing drugs to experience emotions: I don't recall her ever saying that the drugs helped her experience emotions, rather she was saying that by taking the trellium-D she was able to experience certain aspects of emotions without losing control over herself altogether. Unfortunately, the trellium acts like nicotine, in that once you're hooked, it's hard to control yourself without it.

Is a Vulcan taking "drugs" hard to swallow? Maybe, based on the Vulcans we have met before. But we should always remember that out of the probable billions of Vulcans that exist in the Star Trek universe, we've only become closely acquainted with at most a dozen of them throughout the entire franchise. Who's to say that there aren't rebellious Vulcans, or villainous Vulcans (remember the Vulcan Marquis on the DS9 episode that introduced them)? Why can't there be a story about a Vulcan who decided that they would go against the grain, experiment, and explore their socially restricted psyche? I think the character is staying "Vulcan enough" while still taking these new approaches.

--------

"A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
-Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
----
"The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
-Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)

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RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: kxmode (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:35:15 on Apr 30, 2004 | (5)

Quote:
I won't go too much into the semantics of whether any Starfleet captain has ever crossed a line as taboo as Archer did on Wednesday, or whether it was very "Star Trek" of him to do so.

I can quote numerous times were Starfleet Captains crossed the line. Shall I? I shall…

1. Sisko in “In the Pale Moonlight” (DS9 543) hires Garak to enlist the Romulans in the Dominion war. The episode ends with guilty blood on Sisko hand and an erased log that no one knows about.
2. Picard in “Yesterday’s Enterprise” (TNG 163) basically pleads with the Captain of “C” to go back to restore the timeline knowing full well the crew of the ship will likely die.
3. Janeway in “The Caretaker II” (VOY 102) decides to risk the lives of her crew in an attempt to save the peaceful Ocampa homeworld against the militaristic Kazon-Ogla determined to turn the array into a WMD against the Ocampa.
4. Janeway in “Tuvix” (VOY 140) -- Tuvix (a transporter fusion of Tuvok and Neelix) argues that he has a right to survive, and that restoring Tuvok and Neelix's lives amounts to his execution. The Doctor refuses to take Tuvix's life against his will, so in the end, Janeway is forced to take responsibility for performing the procedure. Tuvok and Neelix are fully restored, but Janeway's relief is tempered by the weight of her decision to end Tuvix's life.
5. Kirk in “III: The Search for Spock” disobeys direct orders to not visit Planet Genesis and even steals the Enterprise. To add fuel to fire he even blows up the ship killing Klingons.
6. An Admiral Pressman in “The Pegasus” (TNG 264) forces Ryker to lie to Picard to hide the fact that the Federation secretly developed a phased cloaking device.
7. Captain Maxwell in “The Wounded” (TNG 186) becomes a renegade and starts hunting down and killing Cardassians.
8. Data in “Redemption, Part II” (TNG 201) acting as captain of one of the blockading ships disobeys a direct order to regroup with the other ships (in the military this would be an immoral act).

Quote:
Is a Vulcan taking "drugs" hard to swallow? Maybe, based on the Vulcans we have met before. But we should always remember that out of the probable billions of Vulcans that exist in the Star Trek universe, we've only become closely acquainted with at most a dozen of them throughout the entire franchise. Who's to say that there aren't rebellious Vulcans, or villainous Vulcans (remember the Vulcan Marquis on the DS9 episode that introduced them)? Why can't there be a story about a Vulcan who decided that they would go against the grain, experiment, and explore their socially restricted psyche? I think the character is staying "Vulcan enough" while still taking these new approaches.

Is a Vulcan taking "drugs" hard to swallow? No. Vulcans had a violent, emotional past and in the eons that past learned to control them. Yet it’s reasonable to assume that some Vulcans can’t or won’t follow this path. The worst of the Star Trek films (5) dealt with an emotional Vulcan obsessed with finding "god". Even for Humans that would be pretty extreme and insane. Vulcans are also relatives of Romulans and they’re militaristic almost to the point of being xenophobic terrorists.

--------

http://music.download.com/kxmode
http://www.kxmode.com

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RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:35:40 on Apr 24, 2004

Quote from lemmiwinks:
About T'Pol needing drugs to experience emotions: I don't recall her ever saying that the drugs helped her experience emotions, rather she was saying that by taking the trellium-D she was able to experience certain aspects of emotions without losing control over herself altogether.

T'Pol states that she took the Trellium to access certain "new" emotions. This plot device is absurd, for all the reasons that O. Deus notes. It amounts to a desperate attempt by Berman to cover his premeditated exploitation of T'Pol.

Quote:
But we should always remember that out of the probable billions of Vulcans that exist in the Star Trek universe, we've only become closely acquainted with at most a dozen of them throughout the entire franchise.

That rationalization flies into the face of why an "alien" is selected for use in a story. A unique alien archetype is constructed to provide a specialized commentary or comparison to Humanity. If writers don't intend to honor an established archetype then they've made the wrong choice for a character.

Based on how she's been used, her behavior, T'Pol should be a Human, or perhaps an Orion. It seems that a Vulcan was chosen for Star Trek's marketing value of pointed ears and eyebrows.

Quote:
Why can't there be a story about a Vulcan who decided that they would go against the grain, experiment, and explore their socially restricted psyche?

There have been numerous examples of that throughout Trek, virtually all of which have been true to the Vulcan archetype. Unleashing their emotions results in dire consequences for the rogue and everyone within a violent arm's reach. The Vulcan archetype defines their barbaric emotions as an all-or-nothing deal: When they lust, they also kill. The problem in ENT is TPTB's gratuitous and adolescent selectivity: T'Pol has been scripted as a weak, compliant, dumbed-down, squeeze-toy -- i.e. a condescending Human female stereotype. Some fans deem this as acceptable; many do not.

--------------
William Shatner @ The Wayne Brady Show

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- RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
  By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:53:39 on Apr 26, 2004
  
  I'm sorry, but I disagree. Where you use the word archetype, I would interject the word stereotype. Vulcans are not just any alien in the Star Trek universe. They've been around just as long as Terrans have, since the very beginning. They are no longer a new race created to counter the human factor, they've been given life as a species and we would be bored to tears if they were an archetype or stereotype through the past 30 years. Think of how many different types of people we have on this 6 billion strong planet. There is no limit to the different types of personalities that run around here. You can't tell me that it's beyond comprehension that Vulcans would have at least a little similar diversity. I know of a few peace loving Klingons who wouldn't exist, including the young Alexander, if the aliens in the Franchise were forced to strictly adhere to archetypes.
  
  Many here contend that the problem with this whole T'Pol/Trellium-D thing is that controling ones emotions is learned behavior. A lot of drug users forget or cast off things they have learned all the time. She can unlearn what she has learned.
  
  --------
  
  "A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
  -Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
  ----
  "The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
  -Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
  
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  - RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
    By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:25:35 on Apr 26, 2004
    
    Quote from lemmiwinks;
    we would be bored to tears if they were an archetype
    
    We simply couldn't distinguish Vulcans from Humans from Klingons from any other specified humanoid species if they weren't each established an archetype.
    
    I'm as willing as anyone to avert futile argument by assuming that you (like virtually every Berman fan) fall short of understanding the difference between archetype and stereotype.
    
    --------------
    William Shatner @ The Wayne Brady Show
    
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    - RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
      By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:40:47 on Apr 27, 2004
      
      Look, dude, there's no need to be an ass about it.
      
      I am not a Berman fan, don't ass-ume.
      
      I do know the differance, that's why I was pointing out that what you were describing was a stereotype, and not an archetype.
      
      Typical, somebody is trying to have a civilized disagreement on this site and people just feel the need to get insulting.
      
      --------
      
      "A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
      -Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
      ----
      "The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
      -Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
      
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      - RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:46:56 on Apr 27, 2004
        
        Quote from lemmiwinks:
        I know of a few peace loving Klingons who wouldn't exist, including the young Alexander, if the aliens in the Franchise were forced to strictly adhere to archetypes.
        
        Apparently you don't properly understand archetype.
        
        Battle isn't a biological imperative to the Klingon archetype, for example. Forcing a mainstream Klingon to be "civilized" might oppose their cultural values, but it won't corrupt their psyche to not kill. As a storytelling tool to contrast with the current norm, Alexander shows us that he doesn't have an easy time among the majority of his people, certainly not as a naive child.
        
        Pre-ENT Trek has established that the Vulcan's barbaric emotions are biological, and they cannot be unleashed selectively. Come one, come all. Where they lust on a whim, they also kill on a whim.
        
        Quote:
        Think of how many different types of people we have on this 6 billion strong planet. There is no limit to the different types of personalities that run around here. You can't tell me that it's beyond comprehension that Vulcans would have at least a little similar diversity.
        
        You seem to be laboring under the belief that diversity and archetype are mutually exclusive. They aren't.
        
        As I've noted elsewhere, SciFi/Fantasy storytelling also requires an archetype for we complex Humans. Without it, there'd be no way to measure "alien."
        
        --------------
        LeVar Burton @ The Sharon Osbourne Show
        
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        RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
        By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:56:10 on Apr 27, 2004
        
        The flaw in that is we've seen most all Vulcans with recurring roles on Star Trek lose control of their emotions at one time or another, usually displaying pain or anguish, and they haven't exploded into a violent rage, or an inappropriate burst of laughter, or etc.
        
        I do know what archetype means; there are several different definitions of the word, actually. The archetypical Vulcan does not cross the threshold into their emotions... ever. We've never seen such a Vulcan, except perhaps as an extra or a minor, non recurring role. To me, that makes such an archetype a stereotype. It is an oversimplification.
        
        To say that it goes against the grain for a Vulcan to expose their emotions from time to time isn't correct. From what we have been exposed to over the past 30 years, it would seem to be against the grain for a Vulcan to never show their emotions... ever.
        
        As far as Klingons go, their war-like nature isn't engrained into their physiology, it is learned. As it is with Vulcans, they learn their emotion control throughout their lives.
        
        --------
        
        "A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
        -Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
        ----
        "The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
        -Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
        
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        RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:38:38 on Apr 27, 2004 | (2)
        
        Quote from lemmiwinks:
        The flaw in that is we've seen most all Vulcans with recurring roles on Star Trek lose control of their emotions at one time or another, usually displaying pain or anguish, and they haven't exploded into a violent rage, or an inappropriate burst of laughter, or etc.
        
        You expect a species to perform their entire behavioral repertoire in a single scene?!
        
        If so, you'd be a disturbing person to get tipsy with -- crying, laughing, praying, and busting up the furniture when the tab arrives!
        
        Quote:
        The archetypical Vulcan does not cross the threshold into their emotions... ever. We've never seen such a Vulcan, except perhaps as an extra or a minor, non recurring role.
        
        If you ever get around to watching TOS, keep an eye on a "minor" character named Spock. Or, observe the result of Sarek's mental deterioration in TNG. VOY's Tuvok also had emotional "threshold" problems, though I didn't watch all of that series (I've missed a handful of episodes).
        
        By the way, your use of "archetypical Vulcan" is invalid. By definition and origin, there's no such thing as a non-archetypal "Vulcan."
        
        Quote:
        To say that it goes against the grain for a Vulcan to expose their emotions from time to time isn't correct.
        
        I've never said any such a thing. I assert that the archetype specifies barbaric emotions that are often extreme and are consistently detrimental.
        
        Quote:
        As far as Klingons go, their war-like nature isn't engrained into their physiology, it is learned.
        
        You're only rewording what I've already presented: The Klingon warrior "nature" isn't a biological imperative, it's cultural programming.
        
        Quote:
        Vulcans, they learn their emotion control throughout their lives.
        
        Their motive: There are detrimental and often extreme consequences when their barbarian brain physiology is unleashed.
        
        --------------
        Shatner says he has penned Kirk's return
        
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        RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
        By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:00:48 on Apr 28, 2004
        
        I think we're melding into the same basic idea here. You misunderstood one of my points, though. I was saying that there has never been a Vulcan that we've seen (who isn't a minor character) who hasn't lost control of there emotions at some point in "history."
        
        And there was another thing, you were the one who stated that with Vulcan emotions, it's all or nothing; that you don't just get one emotion when they lose control, but all of them come breaking through the gates. I was stating that I hadn't seen that happen.
        
        --------
        
        "A billion robot lives are about to be extinguished! Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one..."
        -Hubert Farnsworth (Futurama: Crimes of the Hot)
        ----
        "The Andorian Mining Consortium runs from no one!"
        -Shran (ENT: Proving Ground)
        
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        RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
        By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:24:13 on Apr 27, 2004
        
        I'd just like to note that Klingons may not be pre-programmed to fight, but their bodies have been shaped to fit this lifestyle. I mdon't really have a point, I just thought I'd throw it in there...
        
        --------
        
        Dig deep piles of rubble and ruins
        Towering overhead both far and wide
        There's unknown tools for World War III
        Einstein said 'We'll use rocks on the other side'
        
        No survivors!
        
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        RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:59:47 on Apr 27, 2004
        
        Quote from Cymro:
        I'd just like to note that Klingons may not be pre-programmed to fight, but their bodies have been shaped to fit this lifestyle.
        
        Yes, which could be evolutionary adaptation to a sustained environment of frequent physical damage.
        
        Klingon culture does "program" them to battle, e.g. by incorporating a warrior creed into their "faith."
        
        --------------
        William Shatner @ The Wayne Brady Show
        
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"act like she was about to bake Hansel and Gretel in a giant oven | Report this post to moderator
By: Bucky (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:49:16 on Apr 23, 2004

genius. Can I steal that line?

--------

An elephant never forgets . . .TO KILL!

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RE: "act like she was about to bake Hansel and Gretel in a giant | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:45:48 on Apr 24, 2004

Be my guest.

I discard them like trails of bread crumbs anyway.

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Re: drug addiction | Report this post to moderator
By: who1 (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:06:55 on Apr 23, 2004

I agree T'Pol addiction is a convenient contrivance to explain her exploration of emotions, but I don't have a problem with the idea of a character becoming addicted to a drug - it can make for compelling drama. I'm not saying that it does in this case, it rings too falsely in the face of what we know about T'Pol and Vulcans, but I don't think it should ever be a taboo. It's a relevant issue today and episodes of Trek that have dealt with it (such as TNG's 'Symbiosis') don't hit very close to home the way a personal storyline with a main character could. Star Trek is not so elevated so as not to have one of its characters become a drug addict - if the end result is provocative and effective drama, then that justifies the storyline.

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Re: drug addiction | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:01:42 on Apr 23, 2004

Quote:
Star Trek is not so elevated so as not to have one of its characters become a drug addict - if the end result is provocative and effective drama, then that justifies the storyline.

But rather than do this with the resident Vulcan, who every season has been pummelled with some sort of stereotypical trauma that negates anything that she does or says, it would have been POWERFUL to have had MAJOR HAYES be this "drug addicted" character.

Do you know why?

Because not only would it underscore some of the stress (and post traumatic stress disorder) that a military often goes through (which is the REALISM that people keep craving for but refuse to accept outside of "realism" somehow meaning simplistic crap like "edgy" and "gritty" and "dark"), but it would tie-in to the comments from Q in TNG referring to how Earth and Humanity "resorted to drugs to control their military". Ie., most likely in reference to WW III, but perhaps something that has also carried over into this era in the underground of the military industrial complex of Earth (particularly within the "crack" troops of a MACOS organization).

But oh well.

--------

"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

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- Re: drug addiction | Report this post to moderator
  By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:53:39 on Apr 23, 2004
  
  It reminds me of the cop characters on shows like Hunter or 21 Jump Street, where if anything could go wrong for the women it would. The female cop on Hunter was raped twice during the show and I think something similar happened to Holly Marie Combs on Jump Street.
  
  I think it might be a case of clostet misogynistic tendencies on the part of Berman and Braga. You see, in another post I was discussing with Scorned how these guys seem to be able to land jobs. My theory is they give really, really good blowjobs and are forced to do so on a regular basis. As a result they develop horrible inferiorities, being treated as "bitches" and act out by punishing the character of T'Pol. This is similar to the way James Cameron went from directing some of the toughest females in Hollywood (Ripley in the movie Aliens, Sarah Conner in the Terminator films) to abusing women in the film True Lies when he was going through a messy divorce.
  
  Quite fascinating, really. :D
  
  --------
  
  "Oh, I'll wake up
  To any sound of engines,
  Ev'ry gull a seeking craft..."
  
  Kate Bush, And Dream of Sheep
  
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Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:57:51 on Apr 23, 2004

... you took the words right out of my mouth. Imagine that.

There are a few things I would add because there WAS alot going on there, some of which was often overshadowed by other things, but I will say this:

THE GOOD:

1.) Hoshi/Travis - one of the RARE moments when these 2, the youngest members of the Bridge crew, were together working on the analysis of the Xindi-Aquatic escape pod.

I wished there was more dialog, but the 2 characters (and both actors) looked like little lost puppies in that scene and it actually would have been nice to have that scene go on longer to emphasize the little lost puppy feeling there, because THAT is what they should be feeling IF (for those who obsess that Trek should be "real"), you want "realism".

THE OKAY (needs work)

2.) The conversation about "ethics" between Archer and Phlox. This was also something that needs to happen more often and needs some more substance, but at least it was inserted.

See... Phlox, like T'Pol, needs to be a commentary character. Certainly in season 1 both were. But they have been sortof dragged along with this plot that really has little or no impact on their own societies, thus freeing them to sympathize and empathize with Humanity. However they need to be shown distinct from Humanity in order to observe and comment on how they see Humanity reacting to this.

THE BAD

3.) The negation of the contrarian position "by reason of insanity" of the one giving that position.

The contrary point of view has been one of my pet peeves in ENT. And it can be subtle or it can be impassioned as we saw with the resident Vulcan. However in this latter case, because the "passion" was released, not due to any true passion or concern, but was due to the overlay of a plot device substance, then it negates the arguments.

Plot device external factor substances that impact a character are part and parcel of Trek. However such was done to generally reveal something about that character - mostly removing "inhibitions". However in this case, it comes at the price of making a critical, inpassioned argument against a course of action, moot.

THE UGLY

1.) And so after Phlox determines that this character is a druggy, what does he do? Gives her a snort of a 22nd century Methadone-equivalent and sends her back to the Bridge.

Despite the fact that Commander Charles B. Tucker III was not only the original First Officer of this ship, but he has proven his ability at doing the job and has had more than enough experience. So there was NO NEED to NOT relieve this character from duty until her condition was stablized. I don't give a sh*t whether the sky is falling in the ship. The fact that it WAS in the conditon that it was in was HER FAULT. So what do you do? Send her right back to work. That makes lots of sense.

(and I hope people are not going to argue to me that the 18 people killed 3 missing out of almost 80 on board (which assumes a few less since they lost some this season) that were lost, would somehow make her SO "critical" to ANYTHING to do with the ship... and also don't argue to me that Trip is the Engineer and can't somehow direct his team from the Bridge, if he needs to really be there much, since certainly, Archer was doing a "Janeway" as people are wont to say around here, down on his back helping to repair the ship like everyone else)

--------

"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

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RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: Brikar (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:19:36 on Apr 25, 2004

"Hoshi/Travis - one of the RARE moments when these 2, the youngest members of the Bridge crew, were together working on the analysis of the Xindi-Aquatic escape pod."

If they're gonna do a romance on ENT, it really ought to be these two. Not only are they grossly over-looked when it comes to developing relationships between the crew, but there's an interesting dynamic in there between the boy who spent most of his life on ships meeting exotic aliens and the girl who never really left home.

--------

"Serenity" is the movie "Star Wars" prequels wish they could be.

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RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:28:27 on Apr 25, 2004

Quote:
1.) And so after Phlox determines that this character is a druggy, what does he do? Gives her a snort of a 22nd century Methadone-equivalent and sends her back to the Bridge.

Hmm. Why not? The guy is the doctor...if he feels that T'Pol is capable of commanding the ship(and it seems clear to me that he did)then why shouldn't she be allowed to command the ship? Also, I don't personally agree that the damage caused in the first attack was her fault. They were out numbered and out gunned. And thirdly Phlox's position that T'Pol was capable of commanding the ship is proven when she comes up with a soloution to both the alien weapons and the force field that doesn't cause crippling damage to the ship. All in all not a bad job if you ask me. Had Reed been in command he would have just destroyed their weapons, leaving them open to attack by anything. I think Trip makes the most sense on the away mission, on a job that critical you want your best man on it and Trip is the best man for the job. Obviously Captin Archer shouldn't have gone, but it wouldn't be the first time that a Star Trek captain(or hell real commanders for that matter)went into battle when he shouldn't have. And it also matched his characterization in the previous episode, and in the previous seasons even.

--------

"Time is a face on the water."

-Stephen King, The Dark Tower Series-

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- RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:28:34 on Apr 26, 2004 | (1)
  
  Quote:
  
  Hmm. Why not? The guy is the doctor...
  
  He was written as INCOMPETENT in this episode. This the guy who supposedly ALSO has degrees in psychiatry, etc. per ANIS
  
  Quote:
  
  if he feels that T'Pol is capable of commanding the ship(and it seems clear to me that he did)then why shouldn't she be allowed to command the ship?
  
  It's contrived. I could write a story and have Q show up like the Good Witch of the North, destroying the spheres, and helping our stalwart crew return home, Earth saved once more.
  
  Quote:
  
  Also, I don't personally agree that the damage caused in the first attack was her fault. They were out numbered and out gunned.
  
  Go back and watch it again when both Trip and Reed insisted that they get out of there and at least hide instead of continuing to WAIT, leaving themselves totally vunerable to attack.
  
  Quote:
  
  And thirdly Phlox's position that T'Pol was capable of commanding the ship is proven when she comes up with a soloution to both the alien weapons and the force field that doesn't cause crippling damage to the ship.
  
  No, Phlox was an accessory to involuntary manslaughter, with the deaths of at least 18 crew (with 3 missing) because of his incompetence.
  
  Tell me - what happened to the deadly incurable Pa'nar Syndrome, eh? He was supposed to be giving her treatments for it based on the research that they were able to obtain. And since it DIDN'T have a cure and since it WOULD BE impacting her neurological and immunological systems, then she would have HAD to be under his regular care - during which he would have scanned her brain (one of the affects of the Syndrome breaks down synapses) and noticed this habit of hers.
  
  But all of this was forgotten and what was once an excellent, interesting, quirky, strongly ethical and opinionated doctor, has been reduced to idiocy.
  
  Quote:
  
  All in all not a bad job if you ask me.
  
  Based on your answer, I don't think I would ask you. ;-)
  
  Quote:
  
  Had Reed been in command he would have just destroyed their weapons, leaving them open to attack by anything.
  
  What???? Why would you assume that? Did you watch what he did back in ENT "The Andorian Incident"? Chances are, he might have devised a way (while in hiding) to perhaps rescue the Captain if there were any signs that he was still alive.
  
  Quote:
  
  I think Trip makes the most sense on the away mission, on a job that critical you want your best man on it and Trip is the best man for the job.
  
  And to hell with the ship and the 70-some surviving crew. A ship totally damaged and needing its Chief Engineer there. Scotty was often left behind to be able to perform his miracles to get the ship up and running when needed.
  
  Quote:
  
  Obviously Captin Archer shouldn't have gone, but it wouldn't be the first time that a Star Trek captain(or hell real commanders for that matter)went into battle when he shouldn't have.
  
  This is irrelevent at this point because the Captain is responsible for HIS SHIP AND CREW. And if you have EVER watched TOS "The Doomsday Machine" and saw how an HONEST mistake cost Commodore Matt Decker not only his ship but ALL of his crew, and THIS sent him over the edge, so too should Archer have been impacted similarly. Certainly the planet killer machine from that ep makes any stupid Xindi weapon look like a NOTHING in comparison, where that planet killer could gobble up every planet in a solar system and was heading for the Rigel Colonies - which is why Decker insisted on going after it and at least TRYING to stop it somehow (because the rest of the Federation - particularly Earth, would be next).
  
  Compare ENT "Damage" to TOS "The Doomsday Machine" and see the difference.
  
  Quote:
  
  And it also matched his characterization in the previous episode, and in the previous seasons even.
  
  Again - go back and watch TOS "The Doomsday Machine" and watch how THAT crew (other than the Captain) performs. And certainly, TOS's mission was for them to "go where no man has gone before", no different than this crew is doing (ie., plunging themselves into the unknown).
  
  --------
  
  "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
  ----
  "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
  
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  - RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
    By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:25:33 on Apr 26, 2004
    
    He was written as INCOMPETENT in this episode. This the guy who supposedly ALSO has degrees in psychiatry, etc. per ANIS
    
    Wrong. He was actually quite competent. He readily diagnosed the problem and the solution.
    
    It's contrived. I could write a story and have Q show up like the Good Witch of the North, destroying the spheres, and helping our stalwart crew return home, Earth saved once more
    
    Wrong again because that would be a Deux Ex Machina and this is not. T'Pol was the best person to command the ship in a life and death situation and as a Vulcan had enormous reserves of mental discipline to call upon. See Spock.
    
    No, Phlox was an accessory to involuntary manslaughter, with the deaths of at least 18 crew (with 3 missing) because of his incompetence.
    
    How nice of you to stop at manslaughter rather than genocide. After all if you make up bizarre accusations, you might as well go for the max.
    
    But all of this was forgotten and what was once an excellent, interesting, quirky, strongly ethical and opinionated doctor, has been reduced to idiocy.
    
    Wrong again. Actually Phlox in this episode emerged as wise and reasonable and a shoulder for both the captain and T'pol to lean on. It's a shame you can't get past your anger to see that.
    
    And to hell with the ship and the 70-some surviving crew. A ship totally damaged and needing its Chief Engineer there. Scotty was often left behind to be able to perform his miracles to get the ship up and running when needed.
    
    And on TOS, the Captain, his first officer and the chief doctor often went on away missions putting their lives in danger.
    
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    - RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
      By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:46:32 on Apr 27, 2004
      
      Quote:
      
      Wrong. He was actually quite competent. He readily diagnosed the problem and the solution.
      
      Wrong. He has been supposedly treating her for Pa'nar Syndrome, a neurological disease, and if he WERE doing so, he would have picked this damaging habit up. Unless you accept that he has now found a CURE for this incurable disease. But resets wouldn't be unexpected in this show.
      
      Quote:
      
      Wrong again because that would be a Deux Ex Machina and this is not. T'Pol was the best person to command the ship in a life and death situation and as a Vulcan had enormous reserves of mental discipline to call upon. See Spock.
      
      Spock is not a free-basing crack addict who has had continual damage done to his brain over the past 3 years, ranging mind-rapes to "damaging memories" having been suppressed because of the "guilt" that compounded itself into making the character near insane after a killing done nearly 2 decades earlier, to "damage" done from Rajiin's bioscan.
      
      This continual "damage", from the Pa'nar Syndrome and Tellium-B exposure, has been done by the writers to remove any "mental discipline" that she had so that she can "experience" emotions. She even says so herself and justifies her addiction of taking small doses and foregoning any "meditations" in order to continue to remove the discipline put into place to suppress emotion. Or did you forget that part? Of course you did.
      
      Quote:
      
      How nice of you to stop at manslaughter rather than genocide. After all if you make up bizarre accusations, you might as well go for the max.
      
      Like the rest, you really are LAZY. And so you have nothing but some rather lame quips that say nothing.
      
      INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHER
      
      GENOCIDE
      
      Quote:
      
      Wrong again. Actually Phlox in this episode emerged as wise and reasonable and a shoulder for both the captain and T'pol to lean on. It's a shame you can't get past your anger to see that.
      
      It's a shame you missed how this very ethical character was muted this season. Go back and watch the Phlox of ENT "Vox Sola" or the Phlox of ENT "Dear Doctor" or the Phlox of ENT "The Breach" and compare.
      
      But I know you won't because this is just too much effort.
      
      Quote:
      
      And on TOS, the Captain, his first officer and the chief doctor often went on away missions putting their lives in danger.
      
      But at least they weren't written as idiots. It's a shame what they have done to the ENT characters after the first season.
      
      --------
      
      "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
      ----
      "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
      
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- RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:03:14 on Apr 25, 2004
  
  Quote:
  I don't personally agree that the damage caused in the first attack was her fault. They were out numbered and out gunned.
  
  Obviously, in the acctual battle she was screwed no matter what, but Trip had been advising she retreat before the reptillian ships even came on their sensors. She nearly got Enterprise destroyed by waiting for someone who was not coming back anyway. Her emotions clouded her judgement.
  
  She acctually did do a good job on the bridge in Damage, but she still shouldn't have been let back on duty.
  
  --------
  
  Dig deep piles of rubble and ruins
  Towering overhead both far and wide
  There's unknown tools for World War III
  Einstein said 'We'll use rocks on the other side'
  
  No survivors!
  
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Steve? | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:57:16 on Apr 23, 2004

LOL

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RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:06:05 on Apr 23, 2004

Quote:
Despite the fact that Commander Charles B. Tucker III was not only the original First Officer of this ship, but he has proven his ability at doing the job and has had more than enough experience. So there was NO NEED to NOT relieve this character from duty until her condition was stablized. I don't give a sh*t whether the sky is falling in the ship. The fact that it WAS in the conditon that it was in was HER FAULT. So what do you do? Send her right back to work. That makes lots of sense.

I agree for the most part, but Trip couldn't be in command; he was on the away team, doing the actual stealing of the coil. That would have left Lieutenant Reed next in line to command. Personally, despite his being the armory officer, I wouldn't be comfortable with a Lieutenant in the chair during battle, especially when there're several good-sized chunks of the hull missing.

--------

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- RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
  By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:18:15 on Apr 23, 2004
  
  Quote:
  
  I agree for the most part, but Trip couldn't be in command; he was on the away team, doing the actual stealing of the coil.
  
  Then send one of the other Engineers over. They have a staff of them. And put friggin' Major Hayes on the assault team to protect the lot of them.
  
  Besides - Trip probably should have stayed on board the broken up NX-01 just in case some pissed-off Insectoids and Reptillians showed up and started firing at them. This could have easily been the case since we know they've done crap like that before, making bioweapons on their own and such.
  
  But that would have made too much sense.
  
  Quote:
  
  That would have left Lieutenant Reed next in line to command.
  
  So? He was in command during ENT "The Andorian Incident". Remember Archer's comment about how he didn't hire his Battalion chief to sit on his hands or some similar comment? Reed's quite capable too.
  
  Except when you drag the characters through a plot.
  
  Quote:
  
  Personally, despite his being the armory officer, I wouldn't be comfortable with a Lieutenant in the chair during battle, especially when there're several good-sized chunks of the hull missing.
  
  HUH????? The guy was TRAINED for tactics! He would know how to function under stress AND under duress. Isn't that WHY he went through all that effort in ENT "Minefield" and ENT "Singularity" to have drills and "Reed Alerts" and other such stuff?
  
  Oh that's right. Seasons 1 & 2 didn't exist.
  
  Didn't they JUST go through training given by the MACOs in ENT "Harbinger"?
  
  Sigh... But that's right. We're not supposed to remember that or even think.
  
  --------
  
  "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
  ----
  "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
  
  Reply
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  - RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
    By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:53:18 on Apr 24, 2004
    
    Quote:
    Then send one of the other Engineers over. They have a staff of them. And put friggin' Major Hayes on the assault team to protect the lot of them.
    
    I thought the number of MACOs they had was adequate, though I doubt that Archer should've been there. I just want to know how many transporters they have. They can only take 3-4 at a time, and there were at least 6-8 on the team.
    
    Quote:
    Besides - Trip probably should have stayed on board the broken up NX-01 just in case some pissed-off Insectoids and Reptillians showed up and started firing at them. This could have easily been the case since we know they've done crap like that before, making bioweapons on their own and such.
    
    But that would have made too much sense.
    
    LOL! I use that line myself. You're right, that may well have happened, especially since Degra & Co. were away from the Reptilian Commander at that time.
    
    Quote:
    So? He was in command during ENT "The Andorian Incident". Remember Archer's comment about how he didn't hire his Battalion chief to sit on his hands or some similar comment? Reed's quite capable too.
    
    Except when you drag the characters through a plot.
    
    HUH????? The guy was TRAINED for tactics! He would know how to function under stress AND under duress. Isn't that WHY he went through all that effort in ENT "Minefield" and ENT "Singularity" to have drills and "Reed Alerts" and other such stuff?
    
    Oh that's right. Seasons 1 & 2 didn't exist.
    
    Didn't they JUST go through training given by the MACOs in ENT "Harbinger"?
    
    Sigh... But that's right. We're not supposed to remember that or even think.
    
    Very true. I stand corrected.
    
    --------
    
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RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:07:19 on Apr 23, 2004 | (1)

Phlox should never have allowed her to go back on duty, especially in such a criticl situation. And keeping her problem secret? Excuse me, she is the first officer, I think for the safety of the ship it's the Doc's duty to inform the captain and prevent T'Pol from killing anybody by commanding a ship while and under the influence of a narcotic.

--------

It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!

Halen. "The Dream is Over."

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- RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
  By: ocean (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:54:16 on Apr 23, 2004
  
  I have to agree. I find it unbelievable that Phlox didn't tell the captain about T'pols addiction. She should have been relieved of command and not sent back to the bridge where she would have to make life and death decisions. Why cannot Trip be second in command. He was going to be the first officer before it was known that T'pol would be joining the crew. I'm sure he could have divided his time between the bridge and engineering. T'pol still manages her science duties as well as being first officer. I also find it odd that even when T'pol resigned her commission from the High Command she still remained first officer and she still gets to keep the position even as a drug addict. Sigh!!
  Trip has proved several times that he is quite capable of being in command. Archer spends more time off the ship and on away missons and he is the Captain.!!
  
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  - RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
    By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:25:37 on Apr 23, 2004
    
    Archer's position on away missions is one of the things the did to make the series more like TOS. In regards to the episdode itself, I pretty much agree with Jadzia as usual. Personally, I could see this emotional shit coming right when they started all that massaging bullshit.
    
    What's amazing about this episode is that it was rather enjoyable even though the plot was so easy to poke holes in.
    
    --------
    
    Dig deep piles of rubble and ruins
    Towering overhead both far and wide
    There's unknown tools for World War III
    Einstein said 'We'll use rocks on the other side'
    
    No survivors!
    
    Reply
    Quote

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Makes No Sense | Report this post to moderator By: Klytus (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:04:39 on Apr 27, 2004

T'Pol | Report this post to moderator By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:11:26 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:51:10 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:27:48 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:10:59 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:15:37 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator By: FrequencySpike (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:30:45 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator By: Joe P (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 18:23:04 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator By: FrequencySpike (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:35:00 on Apr 25, 2004

Damage and Deus' Review | Report this post to moderator By: zak (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:48:30 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: Damage and Deus' Review | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:52:37 on Apr 25, 2004

T'Pol subplot was good | Report this post to moderator By: sb2004 (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:37:15 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: T'Pol subplot was good | Report this post to moderator By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:49:49 on Apr 25, 2004

Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator By: rfjason (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:20:27 on Apr 23, 2004

Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:55:17 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:03:38 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:44:20 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:21:49 on Apr 25, 2004 | (3)

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:55:16 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:57:11 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:12:43 on Apr 26, 2004 | (1)

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:17:59 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:37:24 on Apr 29, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:37:55 on Apr 25, 2004 | (1)

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:03:09 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:53:46 on Apr 25, 2004 | (1)

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:15:22 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:57:56 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:39:58 on Apr 29, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator By: brad hall (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:30:26 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator By: Sullaban (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:50:13 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:56:30 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:00:45 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:52:02 on Apr 29, 2004

RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:55:41 on Apr 29, 2004

Boring | Report this post to moderator By: NAFF (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:16:41 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Boring | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:57:19 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Boring | Report this post to moderator By: Sullaban (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:41:23 on Apr 24, 2004

Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:26:01 on Apr 23, 2004 | (1)

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: kxmode (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:35:15 on Apr 30, 2004 | (5)

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:35:40 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:53:39 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:25:35 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:40:47 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:46:56 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:56:10 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:38:38 on Apr 27, 2004 | (2)

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:00:48 on Apr 28, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:24:13 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:59:47 on Apr 27, 2004

"act like she was about to bake Hansel and Gretel in a giant oven | Report this post to moderator By: Bucky (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:49:16 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: "act like she was about to bake Hansel and Gretel in a giant | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:45:48 on Apr 24, 2004

Re: drug addiction | Report this post to moderator By: who1 (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:06:55 on Apr 23, 2004

Re: drug addiction | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:01:42 on Apr 23, 2004

Re: drug addiction | Report this post to moderator By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:53:39 on Apr 23, 2004

Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:57:51 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: Brikar (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:19:36 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:28:27 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:28:34 on Apr 26, 2004 | (1)

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:25:33 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:46:32 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:03:14 on Apr 25, 2004

Steve? | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:57:16 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:06:05 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:18:15 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:53:18 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:07:19 on Apr 23, 2004 | (1)

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: ocean (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:54:16 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:25:37 on Apr 23, 2004

Makes No Sense | Report this post to moderator
By: Klytus (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:04:39 on Apr 27, 2004

T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:11:26 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:51:10 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:27:48 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:10:59 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:15:37 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
By: FrequencySpike (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:30:45 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
By: Joe P (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 18:23:04 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: T'Pol | Report this post to moderator
By: FrequencySpike (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:35:00 on Apr 25, 2004

Damage and Deus' Review | Report this post to moderator
By: zak (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:48:30 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: Damage and Deus' Review | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:52:37 on Apr 25, 2004

T'Pol subplot was good | Report this post to moderator
By: sb2004 (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:37:15 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: T'Pol subplot was good | Report this post to moderator
By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:49:49 on Apr 25, 2004

Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
By: rfjason (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:20:27 on Apr 23, 2004

Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:55:17 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:03:38 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:44:20 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:21:49 on Apr 25, 2004 | (3)

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:55:16 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:57:11 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:12:43 on Apr 26, 2004 | (1)

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:17:59 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:37:24 on Apr 29, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:37:55 on Apr 25, 2004 | (1)

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:03:09 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:53:46 on Apr 25, 2004 | (1)

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:15:22 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:57:56 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:39:58 on Apr 29, 2004

RE: Survival of Humanity vs. Stealing a Warp Drive | Report this post to moderator
By: brad hall (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:30:26 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
By: Sullaban (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:50:13 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:56:30 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:00:45 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:52:02 on Apr 29, 2004

RE: Um, I don't think so. | Report this post to moderator
By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:55:41 on Apr 29, 2004

Boring | Report this post to moderator
By: NAFF (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:16:41 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Boring | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:57:19 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Boring | Report this post to moderator
By: Sullaban (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:41:23 on Apr 24, 2004

Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:26:01 on Apr 23, 2004 | (1)

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: kxmode (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:35:15 on Apr 30, 2004 | (5)

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:35:40 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:53:39 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:25:35 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:40:47 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:46:56 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:56:10 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:38:38 on Apr 27, 2004 | (2)

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: Yesterday's Lemmiwinks (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:00:48 on Apr 28, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:24:13 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Thrilling and disturbing | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:59:47 on Apr 27, 2004

"act like she was about to bake Hansel and Gretel in a giant oven | Report this post to moderator
By: Bucky (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:49:16 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: "act like she was about to bake Hansel and Gretel in a giant | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:45:48 on Apr 24, 2004

Re: drug addiction | Report this post to moderator
By: who1 (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:06:55 on Apr 23, 2004

Re: drug addiction | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:01:42 on Apr 23, 2004

Re: drug addiction | Report this post to moderator
By: katefan (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:53:39 on Apr 23, 2004

Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:57:51 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: Brikar (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:19:36 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: AX (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:28:27 on Apr 25, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 06:28:34 on Apr 26, 2004 | (1)

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:25:33 on Apr 26, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:46:32 on Apr 27, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:03:14 on Apr 25, 2004

Steve? | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:57:16 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:06:05 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:18:15 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: chris_h (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:53:18 on Apr 24, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:07:19 on Apr 23, 2004 | (1)

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: ocean (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:54:16 on Apr 23, 2004

RE: Steve... | Report this post to moderator
By: Cymro (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:25:37 on Apr 23, 2004