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Rick Berman: Ep 18 Has a Name, Plus Talks Mythology Installment "Harbinger" (SPOILERS)

By Steve Krutzler / 09:37, 4 January 2004 / Enterprise

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Producer Rick Berman talks with the STAR TREK Communicator for the magazine latest Update in issue #148. In addition to revealing that the title of ENTERPRISE's eighteenth episode of the season is "Azati Prime," Berman offers some intriguing details about the February 11th installment "Harbinger."

"'Harbinger' is an episode where we rescue a strange test subject - almost like a canary that gets taken down a mine," he tells the mag, "except this is a character that gets taken into our galaxy by the people who built the spheres to see how things are going. It is an episode where a lot of exposition is going to unfold about the upcoming [ending episodes of the season]. There are also going to be some very interesting romantic turns."

Berman says the MACO military characters will continue to be felt through additional appearances of 'Major Hayes' (Steven Culp) and "some quite attractive female MACOs."

Asked about the tragic passing of actress Kellie Waymire ('Elizabeth Cutler') last year, Berman says the staff is discussing ways to honor her.

"We had hoped that Kellie would come back as well. We have discussed some way of honoring her and we'll be looking into that in the next few weeks."

Check out the full interview in the latest issue of the STAR TREK Communicator. Thanks to Matthew Rojanakiathavorn for the clips.

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Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: Berman My Man (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:03:18 on Jan 04, 2004

"some quite attractive female MACOs."

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about! Did anybody else noticed that ENTERPRISE picked up more viewers and steam when they started showing T'Pol in varied catsuits? It wouldn't surprise me if we saw a whole ARMY of catsuits! Now that'll jerk up the ratings, baby! Long live ENTERPRISE! Rick is the man!

--------

"We are ALL Hezbollah."
-- Data's stirring rallying cry from his famous post, and quite possibly the next catchy slogan in the elections this November

LET THE TRUTH BE HEARD!!!

I'm Berman My Man, official Voice of the Great Left(TM) and I approve of this message.

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RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: troymeier (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:58:44 on Jan 05, 2004

I can't believe I am saying this, but I have to agree with Scorned on this one.

--------

I don't like to lose.
James T Kirk, TWOK -

Michael Moore is an idiot!

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RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:29:04 on Jan 04, 2004

Quote:"Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about! Did anybody else noticed that ENTERPRISE picked up more viewers and steam when they started showing T'Pol in varied catsuits? It wouldn't surprise me if we saw a whole ARMY of catsuits! Now that'll jerk up the ratings, baby! Long live ENTERPRISE! Rick is the man!"

I hope you are joking because if you think Star Trek is on the same level as American Pie. You are sadly mistaken. You have clearly missed the point again about what Star Trek is about.

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- RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
  By: Berman My Man (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:31:15 on Jan 05, 2004
  
  Quote:
  You have clearly missed the point again about what Star Trek is about.
  
  So are you actually suggesting then, that Rick Berman, the executive producer of Star Trek, has missed the point then? Because that is what you seem to be saying.
  
  --------
  
  "We are ALL Hezbollah."
  -- Data's stirring rallying cry from his famous post, and quite possibly the next catchy slogan in the elections this November
  
  LET THE TRUTH BE HEARD!!!
  
  I'm Berman My Man, official Voice of the Great Left(TM) and I approve of this message.
  
  Reply
  Quote
  - RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
    By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:41:34 on Jan 05, 2004 | (2)
    
    Quote:"So are you actually suggesting then, that Rick Berman, the executive producer of Star Trek, has missed the point then?"
    
    YES I am. Is the title of "executive producer" suppose to impress me? Rick Berman doesn't know anything about Star Trek. He should go back to producing "The Big Blue Marble". Why else do you think it has suffered so much under his reign? He thinks that some chic in a tight outfit is going to solve the "WRITING" problem on Star Trek. It is clear that you have missed the point about Trek as well.
    
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    - RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
      By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:01:21 on Jan 05, 2004
      
      Quote:
      "He thinks that some chick in a tight outfit is going to solve the "WRITING" problem on Star Trek."
      
      He talks about this quite often, granted. But he wouldn't have introduced a Xindi arc, if he believed chicks can do the trick.
      
      Quote:
      "Rick Berman doesn't know anything about Star Trek... Why else do you think it has suffered so much under his reign?"
      
      There are numeous reasons why Star Trek suffers today, and some of those reasons are not within his control. You blame him because he can't keep Star Trek as fresh and creative as it was in the early 90'es.
      
      I thought the title "executive producer" does not impress you, so why do you expect them to do miracles?
      
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      - RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:17:58 on Jan 05, 2004 | (2)
        
        Quote:"He talks about this quite often, granted."
        
        You argree with me.
        
        Quote:"But he wouldn't have introduced a Xindi arc, if he believed chicks can do the trick.
        
        This has NOTHING to do with Xindi and women. It has to do with having some hot girl run around in skin tight clothes thinking that will solve Treks problem. Having women in tight clothes does NOT solve the BAD writing problem. Since B&B have not written much of Season 3 and there was been small improvements in the ratings. It is clear THEY are the reason why the show almost died last season because they were doing all the writing. B&B should NOT write any more Trek episodes.
        
        Quote:"There are numeous reasons why Star Trek suffers today, and some of those reasons are not within his control. You blame him because he can't keep Star Trek as fresh and creative as it was in the early 90'es. "
        
        Yes I do. He is IN CHARGE. That means he is responsible for the shows direction. There are other shows on the air that have been on for several years (Law And Order, Sopranos, Simpsons) that have been able to keep it going. The Wednesday night NBC slot has SOLID programing. WHY? Because they get new writers and keep things going. Law And Order has been on the air how long now? How many cast member changes has it had? Yet the ratings are still up there! WHY? THE WRITING!! Berman is in charage. Therefore he takes the hit. If it is not poor little Ricks fault then WHO is responsible?
        
        Quote:"I thought the title "executive producer" does not impress you, so why do you expect them to do miracles?"
        
        Since you said miracles then I am assume that you realize that the ENT was shit and the last 2 movies where shit. NO I am not impressed with his title because if he actually did his job he NEVER would of had to go down this road. His title should be "arrogrant, lazy 3rd rate writer". I only wish I could of been at that meeting between Paramount and Berman when Paramount gave him the big reality kick in the ass making him get new writers and to turn this thing around. I bet he cried!
        
        Berman just turned 59 years old. It is time to GO!
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:56:14 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        "Since B&B have not written much of Season 3 and there was been small improvements in the ratings."
        
        If we are to believe the writer Mike Sussman, B&B still write as much as they did in season 1-2. He says the first thing he learned in show-business was that the on-screen credits, do not necessarely refer to the person. In other words "Story by ..." does not tell how much of the story was writen by that person. So I see nothing really that prooves your point, in this case.
        
        Quote:
        " ...You blame him because he can't keep Star Trek as fresh and creative as it was in the early 90'es. ... Yes I do. He is IN CHARGE."
        
        You blame Rick Berman when things go wrong, simply because he is in charge, yet you don't credit him for things that go right even though he is in charge. I don't undestand this. Could it be that your emotions are clouding your logic?
        
        Quote:
        "You agree with me."
        
        Yeah, sometimes. :o)
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:40:04 on Jan 05, 2004 | (1)
        
        Quote:"If we are to believe the writer Mike Sussman, B&B still write as much as they did in season 1-2. He says the first thing he learned in show-business was that the on-screen credits, do not necessarely refer to the person. In other words "Story by ..." does not tell how much of the story was writen by that person. So I see nothing really that prooves your point, in this case."
        
        After you watched the episodes there were credited by other writers and compared to episodes that were. Do you not notice the difference? It seem very clear that some of the non B&B crap episodes were far superior and got rave reviews by people on this board and in the other viewership numbers.
        
        Yes it maybe true they are also writing not putting their names on the credits. I find that hard to believe otherwise they don't get paid for the scripts. Plus I find it very unlikely with huge egos they have. They would have NO problem telling people they wrote this and wrote that. It really doesn't make any sense why they write scripts and not give themselves credit for it.
        
        Quote:"You blame Rick Berman when things go wrong, simply because he is in charge"
        
        When things go wrong who do you blame? When things go wrong in a company the managements gets yelled at and takes the heat until things improve.
        
        Quote:"yet you don't credit him for things that go right even though he is in charge"
        
        WHAT has he done right?
        1)Nemesis sucked and was a bomb. It is now the worst Trek movie to date.
        2)INS was not a success. Personally I thought it sucked major ass.
        3)ENT has been a huge failure from the get go. It was almost canceled because it was so poor.
        4)Voy was nothing special. The series finale was pretty bad and didn't have any kind of hype to it like TNG did.
        5)Generations he killed the Hero with the DUMBEST death scene. People want Kirk back!
        6) The last 5 years we have seen a very steady DECLINE in the popularity of Trek. WHY? CRAPPY WRITING!
        
        SO WHAT HAS HE DONE THAT HAS BEEN SO GREAT?
        
        Besides the directors cut of the "Big Blue Marble". That is the type of programing this asshole should go back to doing.
        
        My emotions are not blocking my judgement. It my logic of seeing the guy steadily destroyed Trek these past few years with his ego that fuels my desire to see Berman fired.
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:23:53 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        I meant simply the fact that you're quick to blame him when something goes wrong. But when you say "the ratings have improved a little in season 3" you are quick to say it was because of someone else. Since he is in charge, it's his responsibility, both when this go right and wrong, and should be given credit, nomatter who saved the day.
        
        That's just a piece of logic that I think would be fair. Provided, you ARE going to blame him for every aspect of Star Trek's decline, today where people are nolonger impressed by merely seeing a sci-fi series on TV, just ANY sci-fi series, as they were impressed by TNG. This is something Rick Berman has got nothing to do with, and has no chance of competing with.
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:54:50 on Jan 06, 2004 | (1)
        
        Quote:"I meant simply the fact that you're quick to blame him when something goes wrong. But when you say "the ratings have improved a little in season 3" you are quick to say it was because of someone else. Since he is in charge, it's his responsibility, both when this go right and wrong, and should be given credit, nomatter who saved the day. "
        
        Lets us recap here.
        1) Fact: The ratings stop dropping and went up a little bit.
        2) Fact: Season 1 and 2 were mainly written by B&B. The ratings were so bad that it was almost canceled last season. Well if people are saying the episodes are better and they are NOT doing the writing then it is a safe assumption to make that these two were responsible for the POOR quality of writing. A poor quality that made a lot of fans stop watching the show. Hence HIS fault.
        3) Fact: Season 3 has almost NO B&B scripts used. Hence ANY improvement in writing is NOT because of B&B it is because of someone else giving Trek some new blood. The episodes are written by other people. They are directed by other people (Burton, Dawson, Duncan etc). So really what are these two doing? Executive Producer do what exactly? It seems that the less influence they have on Trek the better the ratings. Now if we can only apply that to another movie. A "non B&B" movie. We would have a chance at seeing a decent film.
        4) Overall interest in Star Trek is dropped. Since he took over Trek has had a steady decline. He has done nothing to stop this.
        5) QUOTE:some quite attractive female MACOs
        This does NOT solve the poor writing problem for Trek and it shows that Berman doesn't have a god damn clue what Trek is about.
        
        Quote:"and should be given credit, nomatter who saved the day. "
        
        No. That just means they are going to ride the coat tails of someone else. If you worked for a company in a certain department and came up with a million dollar idea. Are you going to be happy that your boss takes credit for it and gives you nothing? This idea of them getting credit for shit they don't do is ridiculous. The only credit Berman should get about this seasons improvement is the fact that he is doing nothing. He is not giving us the "Berman touch of death".
        
        Quote:"That's just a piece of logic that I think would be fair. Provided, you ARE going to blame him for every aspect of Star Trek's decline, today where people are nolonger impressed by merely seeing a sci-fi series on TV, just ANY sci-fi series, as they were impressed by TNG. This is something Rick Berman has got nothing to do with, and has no chance of competing with."
        
        People are not impressed with seeing Sci-fi/Fantasy? Are you kidding me? People love it. You are going to see a B5 mini series, Stargate has been very successful. The better written the Sci-Fi/Fantasy the better. Episode II made over $200 million. The entire Lord Of The Rings trilogy will make over a billion dollars. People are not interested in poorly written SciFi/Fanasty because they have seen some stuff in the past that has blown them away. (Ie Alien, Star Wars, Empire, STII, STIV etc). Which is exactly what ENT is. Poorly written. When you have people putting out GARBAGE like "A Night In SickBay or Stigma" it turns peoples stomachs. Then to top it off you get to hear the egos of these two losers saying they are "great writers". Well I am still waiting for something great by these two idiot. It would be like seeing a movie like the Lord Of The Rings and then going out to see a Sci-Fi movie where you can see the "strings holding up the ship like in a 1950's cheap movie.
        
        Rick Berman is in charge of Star Trek (hopefully not for long!) He is RESPONSIBLE for making sure the quality of everything Star Trek is top notch. He is responsible for making sure the story level is a cut above the rest. Something that he is FAILED to do. His job is to make Star Trek great so that the studio can money on it. That is his job. He has gotten lazy, his writing has been always shit and his ego was over inflated for no good reason. He allowed Trek to go down this road. So it is Rick Berman fault that ENT has done so poorly because everyone knows that there IS an audience of Star Trek. His lack of vision and lack of talent have almost destroyed Trek. His laziness in allowing continuity errors to pop up because he hasn't watch one episode of TOS is inexcusable. The fact that he hates TOS is reason alone to have removed from his job. How can you have some run Star Trek who hates the very foundation of Trek?
        
        In my opinion history will record that Gene Roddenberry gave us an American Icon. History will also record that the icon was destroyed by none other than Rick Berman. The man who was suppose to guide Trek turned around and let it crash because of laziness, greed and ego.
        
        I have no idea what the foundation for your love of Berman is based on. He has given us nothing but crap. All the lies and ego are enough to make anyone throw up in disgust. The man completely lacks any talent or vision. He should of stayed doing the kids programing because it is very clear that Star Trek was a job he was not cut out for. My old boss told me this story about this guy that he knew. The guy had money and a very succesful business. The reason for his success he said was that he surrounded himself with people that were smarter than him. Since Berman is a talentless hack with no vision. This little piece of advice would of made his job a lot easier. Getting hot/great writers from the beginning would of made ENT a whole world better. The same goes for the movies as well. Berman and especially Spiner had NO business writing Nemesis. It was pure shit and it showed. Nemesis now holds the title of worst Trek film to date. It got bet by a J'Ho movie. Star Trek fans were NOT interested in another DUD Berman film. The fans are sick of his lack of talent and want someone who has talent doing the movies. WHY do you think people always mention "Nicholas Meyer"? Why do you think people would love to see him do another film? The man has proven to have talent and knows how to write. STV beats it. That is sad because STV was not that great to begin with. Berman should swallow his pride and get some knee pads and beg Meyer to do STXI.
        
        You still haven't answered my question about who is responsible for the decline of Star Trek?
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:15:00 on Jan 07, 2004
        
        Quote:
        "I have no idea what the foundation for your love of Berman is based on."
        
        For one thing, I am personally satisfied with the Star Trek, I see at the moment. Sure there have been times where I thought "Voyager is getting boring" or "DS9 went too far there" but this is reality of life - you don't always get exactly what you want. I have never seen Rick Berman as the ever returning culprit. I merely see him as one man in a team.
        
        In general, I think Star Trek has stayed true to the roots. When Roddenberry died, I was thinking "now what's going to happen? It's not going to be the same. It's probably going off the road, sooner or later"... However, over time I was pleasantly surprised. It has become clear that the executive producers (namely Berman who stayed in that position) has done their best to stay very close to what Star Trek always was. Maybe even so close, that today we start to see a predictable pattern in every episode, hence people complain over ripoff's..etc.
        
        But I was afraid, that the morality in Star Trek would suffer. That the series would plummet into the swamp of "sex, violence and bad language" and all the things that I personally find disgusting. The way it's glorified in many movies and series, is disgusting. I would stop watching Star Trek, the minute it falls into that category - and popular category I must add.
        
        I have always considered Gene's Star Trek to be the opposite caliber; portraying a better world.
        
        What YOU used to love in Star Trek, is probably more the ...hmm.. the creative aspect that means Star Trek was a NEW kind of show. People had never seen a serious sci-fi series on TV before TOS and TNG.. And I agree, THIS aspect has not followed Star Trek up to now. I agree that ENT is not a further creative and visionary step, the way TNG was.
        
        I imagine this is a major reason why Star Trek has declined: People in general don't care about morality. Why would TV be full of crap, if they did. The want to see something new.
        
        But I can't see, why you are so convinced that it's going to save the franchine, just if someone else replaces Berman. As I said, he is only one man in a team. The creative aspect could be pumped up, by getting someone new into the team. Berman does not seem like a man who blocks for new inventions, as long as they stay within the parameters that define Star Trek... Okay, okay: The parameters could need some expansion but if they get too loose, noone will recognise this show anymore.. It's important to see this does not contradict what Star Trek used to be.
        
        Exactly this method - getting new people into the team - is what they are trying at the moment. Lets see how far that goes.
        
        I can imagine a worse fate than now: That Star Trek is recreated by someone who turns things upside down, to create THEIR version of Trek. Sure it might be very serious and maybe the result would be so fresh that people start to watch the series again.. (Not that it will ever reach TNG status, when there are several other series available today).. But the more creative it gets - the more it's going to change! And the more risk there is... I know, that I'm not the only one who wants to KEEP what I've got, and KEEP being fasinated like I never saw it before. But this is not possible. One thing, will go up the air.
        
        I don't know what's best for the franchine, but I know that I'm personally satisfied with the Star Trek, we have at the moment.
        
        Quote:
        "You still haven't answered my question about who is responsible for the decline of Star Trek?"
        
        You are! And now you're getting angry with me. No, I'm just kidding. But since you try to start a revolution by convincing everybody that Star Trek has turned into crap, you are contributing to the decline of current Star Trek. You sure realize that.
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:19:13 on Jan 07, 2004
        
        Quote:"But since you try to start a revolution by convincing everybody that Star Trek has turned into crap, you are contributing to the decline of current Star Trek. You sure realize that."
        
        Ummm No. It is people like me who are trying to keep Star Trek from becoming stale and dead. Ent has gone done the road of trying to get people to watch by having some anorexic barbie doll slut around. Having these MACO officers wearing skin tight clothes is ridiculous. ENT has a whole is a miserable failure and that is why I boycott it. They make no money for me. It is bad writing. It is bad TV.. It is NOT Star Trek.
        
        It is not my fault that
        1) Nemesis bombed. I actually did go to the theater and saw it.
        2) Insurrection was very bad. Again I saw it at the theater
        3) Merchandising has dropped. I am not buying all this crap.
        4) Ent has sucked. I watched the first season and half of it. I gave it a good chance it was a major let down. I have seen a few odd episodes here and there and it still hasn't done anything for me (mainly rip offs of TNG). Except wanting Berman fired even more.
        
        So I am not responsible for Star Treks decline. I have been there when it wasn't that great. I am not going to support more lousy Trek. Instead I am encouraging people to write in and demand change. NEW writers. NEW producers. Other shows like "Law and Order" have done it and it has gone through the original cast and it is still on the air. WHY? The writing. The style of the show. It has been consistent.
        
        Quote:"That the series would plummet into the swamp of "sex, violence and bad language" and all the things that I personally find disgusting."
        
        Ummm all 3 of these elements are in ENT now. Hence you still watch?
        
        Quote:"Why would TV be full of crap"
        
        I agree. People are bored and the networks are just putting out silly crap to shock people. Most of these crazy programs were done in Japan years ago and got huge ratings. The US is just following a stupid trend.
        (It was game shows, talk shows and now it is reality tv.) Lets face it, if people think this reality TV is really "real". Then they are true idiots.
        
        "Within every revolution, there is one man with a vision".
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:01:57 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        I'm not sure exactly what an Excutive Producer does either but, I think it is a wonderful place to stick Berman & Braga. Keep them away from the writing of the scipts & I think that things will continue to improve. It wouldn't bother me a bit if someone else was hired to be the Executive Producers & both B&B were shoved in a corner like Roddenberry was at the beginning of Next Generation & given the role "Official Consultants" but having little nor no say over how the show was produced or written. I know that this sounds brutal but, it wouldn't break my heart if it happened. I would also like to see B&B's jobs slowly fazed out with Paramount.
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:02:46 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        Braga stuck around as long as he did with the hopes of getting control of Star Trek. Well that is not going to happen. If by the chance of God that he does. He will inherit a dead empire. The only person to blame is himself and his partner in crime.
        
        I think it would be very fitting to have B&B shoved as side like they did to Gene. It is funny how things come in full circle in life.
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:36:24 on Jan 07, 2004
        
        I'm hoping that if Paramount are fed up with Berman, they will be equally fed up with Braga & boot both of the characters off of the show. I think that they both have contracts through this year but, I'm sure that there are loopholes that can be used by Paramount if necessary. It wouldn't break my heart if these two clowns lost their jobs.
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:48:14 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Actually, RIck Berman was born in 1945 so, that would make him 58 years old. Other than that (believe it or not) I agree with what you have just posted. I also would have liked to be a fly on the wall whenever B&B were ordered to hire new writers by Paramount. I just hope that they keep hiring good quality writers & let B&B collaborate but, not write any scripts. The series almost died last year because of their awful writing. Hopefully now the show can keep getting better & the ratings will improve. I just wish that UPN would advertise more. That really bothers me.
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:35:30 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        When you have a something like this. There are people who make the decisions which guide the show. He is the guy in charge with Braga waiting in the wings to take over for Berman. The problem is that Braga is going to inherit a dead leagacy.
        
        I would assume not have B&B write any more scripts. It is bad enough that we learned that all scripts that were submitted get a once over by B&B. Which I think just takes away the idea of getting "new blood" in town. You know that they don't do the rewrite for continuities sake. It is just for ego.
        
        Instead of having people do these stupid "Enterprise Projects" they should of done a "New Writers for Trek project". Thus showing Paramount that there are still fans left that are still interested in Trek just not the horrible crap written by these two idiots.
        
        I better change that then. Paramounts promotion department is runned by idiots. The promo for Nemesis was proof enough compared to the promotion of the Hulk movie.
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:28:03 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        I don't know for sure-since I don't work for Paramount-but, I wonder if someone involved with Paramount has been overseeing the scripts after Berman approves them & Berman has been order by Paramount to approve them. I think that B&B are talented enough writers to collaborate but, I don't really much care for the scripts that they have written themselves.
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:56:31 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Gee, you would think that I would learn not to post a message when I'm being asked questions at the same time by both of my kids. Anyway, what I was trying to say was that I wonder if someone at Paramount has been hired to oversee the scripts after Rick Berman has approved him to make sure that the quality of the scripts are up to par. I don't see him having the free reins that he did last year before the show was almost cancelled. I could be completely wrong but, the scripts have improved dramatically since other writer have been hired. Maybe B&B now have more of a behind the scenes role now. I hope so. They created the show but, it's obvious that they don't have the professional writing skills to carry the show.
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:47:54 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        The only thing I think B&B have a talent for is taking coffee orders.
        
        I find these two have any talent at all. If you look at their track records they got more crap under their belts then anything good. A fine example of stupid writing by Braga is that episode of VOY where Paris and Janeway become eel like creatures. That was BLOODY retarded. He must of been smoking some serious crack when he wrote that piece of trash.
        
        Berman and Braga have to GO!
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:03:56 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        Scorned, read my message that I had just sent & You'll see that I agree with you.
        
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        RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:04:26 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        I know I was just venting.
        
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It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:55:06 on Jan 04, 2004 | (1)

Quote:" It is an episode where a lot of exposition is going to unfold about the upcoming [ending episodes of the season]."

They have said this over and over already now. Yet we haven't seen or heard anything more on this Xindi story line. They keep saying we are going see more and have more of the story unfold which we have NOT seen. I think it is very clear that they are stalling. They have NO idea how to end this arc and are just dragging it out. The season is half over and they are making the 18th epsiode and still we have NOTHING of substance with this stupid Xindi. Lets GET to the point!

Finish up the XINDI arc already...while we are still young!

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RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: theoren (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:55:30 on Jan 05, 2004

totsally agree.
but I think the reason no ending is in sight - there wasn't much to this story to begin with...

--------

"That is the exploration that awaits you: Not mapping the stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possiblities of existence." - Q, All Good Things...

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RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:18:33 on Jan 04, 2004

This is just silly. Having watched the entire DS9 seven season run recently on DVD, it would be very easy to look at each season and claim that they were "dragging out" the Dominion storyline. In the end, slow, suspensful, nuanced, development is far more gratifying and successful than a quick wrap-up like you are advocating. The Xindi storyline should stick around throughout the rest of the series, tying into the coming of the Romulan Wars etc. to make a very intricate, complex, and satisfying series overall. Wrapping it up this year and then proceeding onto a "villain of the year" motif with each successive season would be a mistake. The show has gotten much better this season with the new Xindi threat, taking ENT beyond just another TNG/TOS copy and having this crew face something the other TREK crews didn't, and at a time when Starfleet/Earth is a lot more vulnerable. It's working so far, and I say build on it slowly. Don't rush it to a close and move on to the next villain-of-the-year.

--------

It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!

Halen. "The Dream is Over."

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- RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
  By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:42:22 on Jan 04, 2004
  
  I would have to disagree. I did find that the Dominion War was dragged out a bit. The series finally of DS9 was kind of a let down with way to many unanswered questions.
  
  Quote:"In the end, slow, suspensful, nuanced, development is far more gratifying and successful than a quick wrap-up like you are advocating"
  
  That maybe true but they have done nothing in providing anything kind of "meaty story" about all of this. What they have so far have given out already starts to contradict what they are saying. (ie Humans were responsible for the destruction of the Xindi homeworld, then we learn that they Xindi themselves did it to themselves. So what is it already?) They keep saying "oh this episode will explain this and that" and then it doesn't. Instead of having this arc run in very good segments through out the season you are going to get the final 2 episodes of the season dealing with Xindi arc. I think it is safe to assume that they have NO idea how to end this arc. They were lying AGAIN about having the entire season mapped out. They are unable to write any episode within the established guidelines of the Trek universe. So they don't wish to write anything of the Xindi in stone because they know they can't keep their own shit together.
  
  Quote:"The Xindi storyline should stick around throughout the rest of the series, tying into the coming of the Romulan Wars etc. to make a very intricate, complex, and satisfying series overall."
  
  I think it would be a mistake to have this Xindi arc dragged on for the rest of the remaining seasons that ENT has. It will just get boring with "oh this episode there is a Xindi attack, blah blah". So far the Xindi haven't done anything to become interesting Trek characters like the Klingons, Romulans etc. There are brief mentions of the Romulan wars in TOS but there is NO mention of the Xindi or even a tie in with the war. We don't even know how long or how bad this war was. We were told in TOS that they fought this faceless enemy with nuclear weapons. Well we know that little continuity was thrown right out the window. So I don't see any reason why the two should cross over. It would be nice if they decided to hold up the damn continuity once in this series.
  
  Quote:"Wrapping it up this year and then proceeding onto a "villain of the year" motif with each successive season would be a mistake."
  
  It has nothing to do with "villain of the year". The show is suppose to be about mankind's first exploration of the stars. It doesn't always have to be a "villain" in every episode. It is suppose to be about adventure.
  
  Quote:" at a time when Starfleet/Earth is a lot more vulnerable. "
  
  Well that may be true but they haven't done anything in telling us about Starfleet (ie size, members, ships, people, planets etc). They have abandoned the premise of the show being the beginning of Starfleet because they couldn't write anything good hence the poor performance of Season 1 and 2. They have made this show much like TNG. If you were to tell someone about ENT and they started watching it. They would have NO idea that it takes place before TOS.
  
  Quote:"It's working so far, and I say build on it slowly."
  
  I would disagree because if this doesn't pick up people are going to get bored very quickly with this. Having to wait to see the last 2 episodes of the season to explain the arc is not very effective. They will just turn on "Joe Millionaire" type of crap instead. Heaven forbid if they come up with a "Maid In Manhattan" TV series.
  
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  - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
    By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:31:03 on Jan 04, 2004
    
    Scorned, just shut up. You don't know anything about good story telling. Ending the Xindi now will be bad since we're still in the beginning and the ending would be a cop out.
    
    "That maybe true but they have done nothing in providing anything kind of "meaty story" about all of this."
    
    "They keep saying "oh this episode will explain this and that" and then it doesn't."
    
    How would you know? You haven't even seen any of the episodes except for "The Xindi".
    
    "What they have so far have given out already starts to contradict what they are saying. (ie Humans were responsible for the destruction of the Xindi homeworld, then we learn that they Xindi themselves did it to themselves. So what is it already?)"
    
    They are doing it on purpose to make the story more interesting and more complex. Time travel could be involved, you know. I believe the FG did say "Humans 500 years in the future" in The Expanse, so it could mean humans 500 years in the future went back in time to start the Xindi civil war that destroyed their homeworld. Use your imagination for once!
    
    "Instead of having this arc run in very good segments through out the season you are going to get the final 2 episodes of the season dealing with Xindi arc. I think it is safe to assume that they have NO idea how to end this arc. They were lying AGAIN about having the entire season mapped out."
    
    Each episode of this season has contributed to the Xindi arch. How do I know this? I'VE SEEN THE EPISODES!!!!!!
    
    "There are brief mentions of the Romulan wars in TOS but there is NO mention of the Xindi or even a tie in with the war."
    
    BECAUSE THEY WERE BREIF COMMENTS!!!!! THEY COULDN'T GIVE A DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE ENTIRE WAR, HOW IT STARTED, AND HOW IT ENDED. Spock just needed a short and to the point comment about the Romulan Wars. When you talk about World War II, do you explain in great detail of how in started and what happened during the war? NO! If you want to know how the Xindi ties in to the Romulan Wars, read some of my threads!
    
    "We don't even know how long or how bad this war was."
    
    Long enough to make an impact in future dealings between the UFP and the RSE. Bad enough that some families who had ancestors who fought and died in the war still had hatred torward the Romulans 100 years later.
    
    "We were told in TOS that they fought this faceless enemy with nuclear weapons. Well we know that little continuity was thrown right out the window."
    
    Not seeing nukes on board Enterprise does not mean Starfleet won't use them in the war.
    
    "I would disagree because if this doesn't pick up people are going to get bored very quickly with this."
    
    Well, it doesn't look like people are getting bored with the arch. The ratings are increasing.
    
    Again, I'll say to you:
    Sit down, Shut up, and watch the show.
    
    --------
    
    "Take a Romulan chill pill and have some faith!"
    -Erik Jendresen, writer of Star Trek: The Beginning
    
    "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
    -General George S. Patton Jr.
    
    "I am NOT Scorned."
    -Scorned as Gage/Gage_2
    
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    - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
      By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:44:22 on Jan 05, 2004 | (4)
      
      Quote:
      I believe the FG did say "Humans 500 years in the future" in The Expanse, so it could mean humans 500 years in the future went back in time to start the Xindi civil war that destroyed their homeworld. Use your imagination for once!
      
      What FutureGuy told Archer, in The Expanse, is, "The probe was sent by the Xindi. They learned that their world would be destroyed by humans in 400 years". Would be, in 400 years from Archer's time. In The Xindi, it's said that the Xindi homeworld was destroyed 120 years before Archer's arrival. In The Shipment, Gralik tells Archer about how the Xindi's own internal war destroyed their homeworld (without any hint of outsider influence.)
      
      ENT seems to benefit by some fans doing the writers' jobs, filling in gaping story holes -- too often by not noticing what's said/seen on-screen, or by imagining things that don't actually happen.
      
      The Xindi are too stupid to be a serious villain. They strafed Earth without being ready for immediate retaliation. We've seen that Xindi weapons and starship technologies are more advanced than Starfleet's, yet they've failed to swat a mosquito named NX-01 that's making a nuisance of itself on Xindi turf.
      
      Quote:
      The ratings are increasing.
      
      In an overall negative (minus) direction, yes. The Season Three average is lower than the Season Two average. Out of the first ten episodes this season, the average rating for the second five eps is lower than the average for the first five -- i.e. viewer attrition continues.
      
      --------------
      Star Trek: Ships Of The Line 2004 Wall Calendar
      
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      - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:25:22 on Jan 05, 2004 | (1)
        
        Quote:
        ENT seems to benefit by some fans doing the writers' jobs, filling in gaping story holes -- too often by not noticing what's said/seen on-screen, or by imagining things that don't actually happen.
        
        What story holes? There can't be a hole unless the story is completed. You can't criticize a story that has yet to resolve itself for having holes--naturally, the holes are yet to be filled. First of all, why do you assume FG was telling the truth when he said that the Xindi retaliated against a human attack 400 yrs hence? Clearly FG is manipulative and there's no reason to believe anything he says. The Xindi's reason for attacking Earth could be entirely different. Or maybe they get a new homeworld between Archer's time and Archer's time+400 yrs. Or maybe during the 7 weeks it took to reach the expanse, another temporal incursion took place that contributed to the Xindi civil war that destroyed their homeworld 120 yrs in the past.
        
        And the Xindi as incompetent? Well naturally they figured that the Expanse would protect them from retaliation by a species that has--gasp--one starship capable of even reaching their realm.
        
        The point is that we don't know. It hasn't been written (or aired) yet. If the arc were done and all these questions still remained, then, yes, these would be glaring inconsistencies. But you're bitching about the horse while it's still midstream. I can't imagine you watching a show like the X-FILES, my god, how could you stand the apparent inconsistencies year in and year out with no clear resolution or linear explanation episode upon episode... gee, XF must've really sucked, huh? (I'm talking about the first seven years with Mulder).
        
        --------
        
        It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
        
        Halen. "The Dream is Over."
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:59:06 on Jan 05, 2004 | (4)
        
        Quote:
        You can't criticize a story that has yet to resolve itself for having holes
        
        Yes, I can, when characters are written to act like they have no memory of what was said or done earlier, giving little indication that they're connecting the dots in their universe. They have the attention span of a gnat. You also demonstrate my point by devoting an entire paragraph to rationalize event inconsistencies that the characters show no signs of perceiving. Great shades of Berman devoting an entire episode (#19) to explain oddball T'Pol behavior that none of her crewmates have noticed! ENT's characters are one-dimensional puppets that are folded, fondled, or mutilated in any way necessary to drive contrived plots that TPTB pull out of their collective arse.
        
        Quote:
        And the Xindi as incompetent? Well naturally they figured that the Expanse would protect them from retaliation by a species that has--gasp--one starship capable of even reaching their realm.
        
        Even though their goal is to destroy all of Mankind, and they're supposedly tracking Archer et al, the Xindi have failed to control one annoying Earth ship which is easy pickings for samples of Human biology, technology, and information. Stupid is as stupid does.
        
        --------------
        Star Trek: 2004 Day-To-Day Calendar
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:49:07 on Jan 06, 2004 | (1)
        
        You're just nitpicking. Should we stop an episode and have Archer spout off some dialogue like "gee, T'Pol, why would the Xindi's homeworld be destroyed already if humanity is supposed to destory it in 400 years?" Would that satisfy you? Who cares. In X-FILES they didn't have Mulder and Scully running around whining about how the conspiracy never seemed to make sense and they couldn't figure it out no matter how many episodes they had dealing with it. Give me a break. As much as I hate to dismiss someone's comments entirely, your criticisms come down to just plain nitpicking and nothing substantive. The mystery is still unfolding and there is no reason to say that the character are acting inconsistently at all. There are many facets to this Xindi story and the characters don't understand them all, nor does the audience. That doesn't amount to a shoddy story, just an incomplete one.
        
        But this is coming from a guy who thinks the Dominion War was "dragged out" as you put it in one of your previous posts so what's the point of even arguing with you? As I've said before, ENT has enough challenges to overcome without naysayers inventing problems that don't really exist. We bitch and bitch for them to give us a story that MATTERS and not just rehashed TNG stories of the week, and as soon as they do, you start bitching because after a mere 12 (or so) episodes into it--my god!--they haven't resolved all the plot threads yet!
        
        --------
        
        It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
        
        Halen. "The Dream is Over."
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:57:07 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        Quote:
        The mystery is still unfolding and there is no reason to say that the character are acting inconsistently at all.
        
        Are you kidding? Phlox and T'Pol aren't even consistent with their character development from earlier seasons! Archer is schizophrenic.
        
        Look at Stargate SG-1's smart characterizations and storytelling. Characters notice changes in each other and the circumstances around them. Their personalities are consistent. They grow by integrating new experiences and are shown "connecting the dots" across episodes. Questions may go unanswered, but facts aren't ignored. SG-1 writers make the overall complexity look easy. By comparison, ENT appears to be written in crayon.
        
        The unfolding "mystery" is Why are the Xindi so lame -- and why does Archer give the Ship's Masseuse priority over protecting Earth's only hope?
        
        Quote:
        But this is coming from a guy who thinks the Dominion War was "dragged out" as you put it in one of your previous posts so what's the point of even arguing with you?
        
        I've said nothing of the sort. You're confusing me with someone else, which is consistent with viewers who aren't concerned about what's written and shown on-screen.
        
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        I'm Working on That: A Trek From Science Fiction to Science Fact
        
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    - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
      By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:15:42 on Jan 05, 2004
      
      Quote:"Scorned, just shut up. You don't know anything about good story telling. Ending the Xindi now will be bad since we're still in the beginning and the ending would be a cop out. "
      
      And you do know something about good story telling? What have you published? Just shut up little boy and let the adults talk.
      
      Quote:"How would you know? You haven't even seen any of the episodes except for "The Xindi".
      
      Do you think I don't know what is going on? You think I don't read what is posted here? You don't think that I know people that still waste their time watching it and they tell me about it? I told you before, when it gets good I will start to watch. So far....nothing.
      
      Quote:" They are doing it on purpose to make the story more interesting and more complex. Time travel could be involved, you know. I believe the FG did say "Humans 500 years in the future" in The Expanse, so it could mean humans 500 years in the future went back in time to start the Xindi civil war that destroyed their homeworld. Use your imagination for once!
      
      No it is just some more mindless unscripted B&B writing. The "Time travel" scapegoat? The FG said that humanity in the future destroyed the Xindi planet. You learned that they Xindi destroyed their own homeworld by THEMSELVES. There is NO mention of humans. So instead of sitting there with your thumb up your ass going "I wonder if". I suggest you just "follow what is said" and stop living in a dream world.
      
      Quote:"Each episode of this season has contributed to the Xindi arch. How do I know this? I'VE SEEN THE EPISODES!!!!!!
      
      Well good for you and you still know nothing about this so called "fantastic story line" and the season is half over now. There are phrases that describe this (i.e. milking it, dragging it out & stalling). Time to pick up the pace and wrap this up. I am sick of hearing about this dumb Xindi and their big "bad weapon".
      
      Quote:"BECAUSE THEY WERE BREIF COMMENTS!!!!! THEY COULDN'T GIVE A DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE ENTIRE WAR, HOW IT STARTED, AND HOW IT ENDED. Spock just needed a short and to the point comment about the Romulan Wars. When you talk about World War II, do you explain in great detail of how in started and what happened during the war? NO! If you want to know how the Xindi ties in to the Romulan Wars, read some of my threads!
      
      Again I knew you would jump on this Romulan war thing. That makes 8 now. When people talk about WWII they DO happen to mention some of the details. They don't go "some little German guy who might of had three stage syphilis killed 6 million jews". Do you watch ANYTHING that is on the History channel. They go into great detail about WWII. No one sits there and goes "WWII Germans bad, lots dead, we won" next topic. The episode in TOS makes NO reference to the Xindi because there is no connection to the Romulan war. You still are in denial about the dislike B&B have for the Romulans. Don't hold your breath waiting for it. Well maybe you should hold your breath. They are not going to go from one war arc to another. They are going to burn out the audience with the constant war themes. This show is suppose to be about the foundation of the Federation. NOT FIGHTING WARS WEEK AFTER WEEK. I personally don't give a shit about your threads. I am not interested in reading the ramblings of a war monger. They are just your thoughts and wishes. They dictate nothing to the Star Trek Universe and I highly doubt that anything you wrote will be used. So again wake up you are living in a dream world.
      
      Quote:"Long enough to make an impact in future dealings between the UFP and the RSE. Bad enough that some families who had ancestors who fought and died in the war still had hatred torward the Romulans 100 years later.
      
      Again no specific details are given. They are all very loose general comments. This makes 9 now.
      
      Quote:"Not seeing nukes on board Enterprise does not mean Starfleet won't use them in the war.
      
      They just refitted ENT with all this technology even the soldiers have phase rifles. Something we didn't see until FC. So I find it VERY hard to believe that they are going to phasers etc to "sticks and stones". The technology of ENT is too advanced for its times frame when compared to TOS. It is that simple. Had they bothered to watch TOS they might of seen that. That is why ENT could very easily take place after VOY with a few minor adjustments.
      
      Quote:"Well, it doesn't look like people are getting bored with the arch. The ratings are increasing.
      
      That is some nice spin you are trying to make. But the ratings haven't gone up that much. A few 100K isn't a big jump. Not one episode of Season 3 has hit 5 million. It barely hits 4 million. That is still 1/3 the ratings of the pilot and 1/5 the ratings of TNG in the hey days. Instead of sitting there masturbating to the Romulan war idea you should be thinking that since the ratings went up a bit and B&B aren't writing much this season unlike last season. That means they ARE responisble for the demise of Star Trek from their lousy scripts. So do you really think such shitty talent is going to give you the war story that you so desire? You should hope they never touch the Romulan war because they are going to screw up and then we are going to have to listen to you bitch, piss and moan about how you wish they have done this and that. Putting up endless postings on your take of it. That would make me hope they don't do it.
      
      Quote:"Again, I'll say to you: Sit down, Shut up, and watch the show."
      
      Again I say to you, blow it out your ass war monger.
      
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      - You may be oversimplifying the Romulan Wars | Report this post to moderator
        By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 02:56:48 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Just a comment on one particular point...
        
        Quote:
        Quote:"BECAUSE THEY WERE BREIF COMMENTS!!!!! THEY COULDN'T GIVE A DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE ENTIRE WAR, HOW IT STARTED, AND HOW IT ENDED. Spock just needed a short and to the point comment about the Romulan Wars. When you talk about World War II, do you explain in great detail of how in started and what happened during the war? NO! If you want to know how the Xindi ties in to the Romulan Wars, read some of my threads!
        
        Again I knew you would jump on this Romulan war thing. That makes 8 now. When people talk about WWII they DO happen to mention some of the details. They don't go "some little German guy who might of had three stage syphilis killed 6 million jews". Do you watch ANYTHING that is on the History channel. They go into great detail about WWII. No one sits there and goes "WWII Germans bad, lots dead, we won" next topic. The episode in TOS makes NO reference to the Xindi because there is no connection to the Romulan war.
        
        Actually, the World War II comparison is a perfect example of how these details can be omitted. You can watch a movie about the holocaust like "Life is Beautiful" and never hear about the Japanese-American conflict, or watch a movie like "Pearl Harbor" and almost forget that the Germans were involved in the war. World War II was a complex battle involving dozens of nations. Even if you were only discussing U.S. involvment in the war, one could easily get the idea that the U.S. was "only fighting Germany" or "only fighting Japan", especially if you were to base all of your knowledge on a few overheard tidbits. And even if you recognized both of those nations, you might not realize or remember that Italy was one of the Axis Powers, or even realize what the Axis Powers were, or remember who the Soviet Union was allied with or who their enemies were... Come to think of it, you yourself only mentioned the Germans.
        
        To use a Star Trek example, who were the Dominion's allies and enemies during the Federation/Dominion war?
        
        Allies:
        Breen
        Cardassians
        
        Non-aggression pacts:
        Bajorans
        Miradorn
        Romulans
        Tholians
        
        Enemies:
        Bajorans
        Cardassians
        Federation
        Klingons
        Romulans
        
        If you were to take any discussion about who was involved in the war or which sides they were on, the answers would vary widely depending on the time frame and the depth of the discussion. Most discussions wouldn't even mention some of the parties mentioned above.
        
        Again, the point is this: A few brief phrases won't tell you everything there is to know about a complex struggle.
        
        --------
        
        "You know what six movies average out to be really good? The first six Star Trek movies!" -- Fry, Futurama
        
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      - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:29:14 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        "And you do know something about good story telling?"
        
        Of course!
        
        "What have you published?"
        
        It doesn't matter if I've published anything or not. I can read, and there are a lot of books I have read that are slow in the beginning, where all you get is more questions than answers and then at the end, everything comes together. Read some Harry Potter books!
        
        "Do you think I don't know what is going on? You think I don't read what is posted here?"
        
        I'm guessing you won't go and see a movie if you read a bad review about it. Reading what people post on these boards and actually watching are two different things. I thought you were that smart to know that.
        
        "No it is just some more mindless unscripted B&B writing."
        
        You're just assuming on your own personal opinions! You have no REAL proof other than your opinion.
        
        "Well good for you and you still know nothing about this so called "fantastic story line" and the season is half over now."
        
        IT'S THE F&%#ING BEGINNING!!!!!! And I do have an idea on this arch.
        
        "Again I knew you would jump on this Romulan war thing. That makes 8 now."
        
        I'm only commenting on your Romulan War comments. Are you that stupid?
        
        "When people talk about WWII they DO happen to mention some of the details."
        
        Not ALL the time.
        
        "They don't go "some little German guy who might of had three stage syphilis killed 6 million jews"."
        
        Well of course, but I'm talking about a short and to the point paragraph-long speech as what Spock had to do on the Romulan Wars.
        
        "Do you watch ANYTHING that is on the History channel. They go into great detail about WWII. No one sits there and goes "WWII Germans bad, lots dead, we won" next topic."
        
        Oh come on! Of course the History Channel would go into great detail on WWII, but I am not talking about the HC, you idiot! People don't go into great detail on WWII when they need to explain it short and to the point.
        
        "The episode in TOS makes NO reference to the Xindi because there is no connection to the Romulan war."
        
        There was no need! All Spock needed to explain was why the NZ was created in the first place in a short and to the point way. When you are talking about WWI casually, you hardly mention that the assassination of Archduke Ferninand was the cause of the war or that the end of the age of Imperialism was also an indirect cause of the war. The Xindi incident could be an indirect cause of the Romulan Wars. Don't you know your history?
        
        "They are not going to go from one war arc to another."
        
        I don't really consider the Xindi arch as a war arch. I want a war arch like the Dominion war arch.
        
        "This show is suppose to be about the foundation of the Federation. NOT FIGHTING WARS WEEK AFTER WEEK."
        
        Well, if you made a show about the founding of the United States, there would be a war arch. Face it, wars are the perfect way to create a new nation. We see that all over history.
        
        --------
        
        "Take a Romulan chill pill and have some faith!"
        -Erik Jendresen, writer of Star Trek: The Beginning
        
        "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
        -General George S. Patton Jr.
        
        "I am NOT Scorned."
        -Scorned as Gage/Gage_2
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:21:25 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Quote:"Of course! It doesn't matter if I've published anything or not. I can read, and there are a lot of books I have read that are slow in the beginning, where all you get is more questions than answers and then at the end, everything comes together. Read some Harry Potter books!
        
        That answer is nothing more than pure arrogance. Here is a reality check. You are NOT a writer. You have NOTHING published. NO studio has accepted your scripts or ideas. NO publisher has offered to print your material. So therefore YOU have no basis for your previous answer. Everyone on this site can read. So what is your point? You think just because you can read it makes you a great writer? Who would of thought that your reading of "hooked on phonics" would of made you this arrogant? My point which you missed again. (Blinded by the love of war and B&B it seems) was that the season is HALF over now. They have provided little detail about the Xindi. You are going to see this stupid arc dragged out until the end of the season. YES it is dragging because they are not giving you anything of substance. There are little to no clues on this great big mystery/picture. We are too busy seeing the slut Vuclan rubbing Trips feet. Soon we will be seeing the Valentine Days episode where a jealous T'Pol get nailed Trip. Jealousy is NOT a Vuclan trait. More BAD writing. The last 2 episodes of the season will be the wrap up. Knowing B&B they will write the last episode and it will be filled with contradictions, errors and just plain shitty. This Xindi arc ending will be a major let down. They started off one way and it will end on another note.....BAD. We saw that Archer and Trip were pissed mad and wanted Xindi blood for the attack on Earth. I am willing to bet that they will do nothing at the end. Not even a classic "ripped Captain Kirk t-shirt after getting a hit to the face". Do everyone a favour and mail your beloved B&B your hooked on phonics books.
        
        Quote:"I'm guessing you won't go and see a movie if you read a bad review about it. Reading what people post on these boards and actually watching are two different things. I thought you were that smart to know that.
        
        I see you have selective reading abilities too. I said I listen and read what people have told me. I have seen little clips as well when people are pointing some continuity errors or silliness to me. I listen to people who have similar tastes in movies and TV about shows that I miss or new ones that are coming out. I don't give a rats ass about that fat pig Roger Ebert (or other film critics) who couldn't write a decent screenplay for all the chocolate in China. Film critics are nothing more than wanna be screen player writers who couldn't cut it. God have mercy on the brainless soul who actually base their movie going by the reviews of any critic. I make the decision on what I watch. I will listen to personal reviews and articles in making MY decision.
        
        Quote:"You're just assuming on your own personal opinions! You have no REAL proof other than your opinion.
        
        I don't need proof. The fact is that the season is half over. Nothing of substance about the Xindi has been presented. They started in September and it is now January. 11 epsiodes which is HALF of the season and still nothing!! Nothing to attract new viewers and nothing to attract fans who got sick of the B&B horseshit. I am so sick of the Xindi I just want it done already. It is dragging and it is boring. It is like an annoying cold that won't go away. If you go by the B&B lying/BS track record. It speaks volumes. Things have been presented that have conflicted previously said material. (ie Xindi attack earth because of the destruction of their homeworld. Their homeworld was destroyed by the Xindi themselves NOT humans). I find it very likely that the continuity of this garbage will not be held. Seeing how they don't give a shit about the previous established continuity in TOS and TNG. They will let some stuff contradict and give you the excuse of "for the sake of story telling" and you will swallow it up.
        
        Quote:"IT'S THE F&%#ING BEGINNING!!!!!! And I do have an idea on this arch.
        
        No it is not the beginning. Right now it is the middle and the end is soon approaching. You have an idea? Did Rick Berman call you up and tell you something? Are you on Bragas mailing list? I don't think so. What you know is speculation. So stop thinking you know it all because you don't. B&B don't even know either. Why else do you think they are still WRITING scripts instead of having them all done and mapped out like they said they did at the beginning of the season.
        
        Quote:"I'm only commenting on your Romulan War comments. Are you that stupid?
        
        No I am not stupid but your fascination with the dumb war arc is very disturbing.
        
        Quote:"Not ALL the time.
        
        That means that most of the time they DO.
        
        Quote:"Well of course, but I'm talking about a short and to the point paragraph-long speech as what Spock had to do on the Romulan Wars.
        
        No.
        
        Quote:"Oh come on! Of course the History Channel would go into great detail on WWII, but I am not talking about the HC, you idiot! People don't go into great detail on WWII when they need to explain it short and to the point.
        
        Well when you talk to people who lived through WWII or people who have more than a GED. You will get a real discussion not a brief "Germans Bad, lots dead, we won" conversation. WWII is not a topic that is graced over with such disregard to make it seem insignificant.
        
        Quote:"There was no need! All Spock needed to explain was why the NZ was created in the first place in a short and to the point way. When you are talking about WWI casually, you hardly mention that the assassination of Archduke Ferninand was the cause of the war or that the end of the age of Imperialism was also an indirect cause of the war. The Xindi incident could be an indirect cause of the Romulan Wars. Don't you know your history?
        
        Suddenly you talk detail about a world war. Image that! I guess this falls under the category of "not all the time".
        
        Quote:"I don't really consider the Xindi arch as a war arch. I want a war arch like the Dominion war arch.
        
        The Xindi attack Earth and kill 7 million people and you don't see this as an act of war? Come on as a war monger you should of jumped on this.
        "I want a war arch". And you still don't see your war mongering tone? The Dominion war was dragged out and it got boring near the end. It would be nice if Star Trek would get BACK to "Adventure". This is Star Trek not GI Joe.
        
        Quote:"Well, if you made a show about the founding of the United States, there would be a war arch. Face it, wars are the perfect way to create a new nation. We see that all over history.
        
        In other words you agree with me and have to try and save face with this answer. Do you honestly think that B&B are going that way? Do you honestly think the writing is going to be on such a greater scale to make this comparison? You are living in dream world of "milk and honey".
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:13:36 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        Are you really this stupid, or are you just making these idiotic comments just to piss me off.
        
        "That answer is nothing more than pure arrogance. Here is a reality check. You are NOT a writer. You have NOTHING published. NO studio has accepted your scripts or ideas. NO publisher has offered to print your material. So therefore YOU have no basis for your previous answer."
        
        I am not saying that I am a writer! I just told you that I haven't published anything yet. Besides, if you actually read the comment, I said I don't need to be a writer to know how a story goes. I know because READ (not write) books.
        
        "No I am not stupid but your fascination with the dumb war arc is very disturbing."
        
        What fascination?! You mentioned the Romulan War so I made a comment! I do it all the time on these boards! Someone mentions something and I comment! It's called a reply!
        
        "Well when you talk to people who lived through WWII or people who have more than a GED. You will get a real discussion not a brief "Germans Bad, lots dead, we won" conversation. WWII is not a topic that is graced over with such disregard to make it seem insignificant."
        
        In those situations fine! But not all situations call for a detailed analysis! When you talk about how Israel was formed, you don't talk about everything single thing that happened in World War II. NO! You just talk about what's relates to the topic in hand. It would have been illogical for Spock to say every little thing that happened in the war because it would have been too long and all he needed to explain was why the Romulan Neutral Zone was there in the first place. He just needed to brief the crew that because of a war 100 years ago, we have this Neutral Zone that it ALL. Damn it! Why do I have to spell everything out for you!
        
        "Suddenly you talk detail about a world war. Image that! I guess this falls under the category of "not all the time"."
        
        You are so stupid, it makes me want to cry! I was just giving an example that people DON'T go into that much detail ALL THE TIME. It's amazes me that you graduated High School. You're like a child that needs everything explained to him.
        
        What really ticks me off is that all you do is ignore the point I am making and make an idotic remark to an example I made or an irrelevant sentence in one of my comments. Can somebody please tell me that I'm not the only one who sees the stupidity of all of Sconred's replies.
        
        --------
        
        "Take a Romulan chill pill and have some faith!"
        -Erik Jendresen, writer of Star Trek: The Beginning
        
        "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
        -General George S. Patton Jr.
        
        "I am NOT Scorned."
        -Scorned as Gage/Gage_2
        
        Reply
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:06:02 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        Quote:" Are you really this stupid, or are you just making these idiotic comments just to piss me off."
        
        No I am not but it seems that I have hit a nerve of truth. You just can't admit that I am right. I have provided examples to support my points and you keep ignore them with the hopes that what I say will go away or not be true.
        
        Quote:" I am not saying that I am a writer! I just told you that I haven't published anything yet. Besides, if you actually read the comment, I said I don't need to be a writer to know how a story goes. I know because READ (not write) books.
        
        Again reading books doesn't give you the authority to sit there and tell me you know "good story telling". You said and I quote
        "And you do know something about good story telling?"
        Of course!
        "What have you published?"
        It doesn't matter if I've published anything or not. I can read,"
        
        You are clearing telling me that you know good story telling because you read. Well that is not the case and I have no idea what you read.
        
        Quote:"What fascination?! You mentioned the Romulan War so I made a comment! I do it all the time on these boards! Someone mentions something and I comment! It's called a reply!
        
        No you have a real hard on for this Romulan war arc. You are always pushing for this arc. Again this is Star Trek NOT GI Joe. Star Trek is NOT about a war show. It is about adventure.
        
        Quote:"In those situations fine! But not all situations call for a detailed analysis! When you talk about how Israel was formed, you don't talk about everything single thing that happened in World War II. NO! You just talk about what's relates to the topic in hand. It would have been illogical for Spock to say every little thing that happened in the war because it would have been too long and all he needed to explain was why the Romulan Neutral Zone was there in the first place. He just needed to brief the crew that because of a war 100 years ago, we have this Neutral Zone that it ALL. Damn it! Why do I have to spell everything out for you!
        
        The Romulan war is only briefly mentioned in TOS. There are no details to it because they had no intention of ever doing the story back in the 1960's. Since B&B have clearly not watching any episode of TOS don't expect it to happen. At least not to your satisfaction. It would not be illogical for Spock to give many details. In fact that is part of Spocks character. To give detail. Do you not remember the countless times when Spock would give Kirk answers down to the second, meter or hour. So again the Xindi were NOT mentioned therefore there is NO tie in. There was never any hint of Xindi in TOS because Berman and his hack writing were never there.
        
        Quote:"You are so stupid, it makes me want to cry! I was just giving an example that people DON'T go into that much detail ALL THE TIME. It's amazes me that you graduated High School. You're like a child that needs everything explained to him.
        
        I have never said that I need everything little thing explained to me. Please show me where I said that. In fact I have posted several times arguing about seeing episode done on every little thing mentioned in Trek history. I have said we do NOT need to see every little thing. So stay on topic. All you whining about me being stupid is nothing more than a defense mechanism by you to avoid the fact that I am RIGHT and you are again WRONG.
        
        Quote:"What really ticks me off is that all you do is ignore the point I am making and make an idotic remark to an example I made or an irrelevant sentence in one of my comments. Can somebody please tell me that I'm not the only one who sees the stupidity of all of Sconred's replies.
        
        How is that possible for me to ignore your points when I pick apart your entire responses and comment to the points that you make. I do this all the time to your response that I chose to respond to. You are just upset that again I am RIGHT and you are WRONG. You don't like it when I call you a war monger because it is true.
        
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  - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
    By: Brent (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:19:13 on Jan 04, 2004
    
    I, for one, love how this season is unfolding and trying to solve the mysteries as they go along. I'm very interested in finding out what this Expanse is, what the Spheres exactly have to do with it, and have many hopes for other things too. I would love to see them explain the Xindi as something that can't exist without the Expanse, and when (this is almost guarnteed) the Enterprise destroys all of the Spheres in an attempt to be released from the Expanse (we've already heard they probably created it, and that the expanse is impossible to escape), what's going to happen to everything inside. Is it one big special/temporal anomoly created by extradimensional beings for experiments? Who knows? To me, this is the fun of this arc, it's unknown to Star Trek and we're getting to learn about it as we go. Star Trek is about exploration and learning about our universe. Despite the fact that they're giving us lots of sex and action along the way, that exploration is there nonetheless... it's there in the greater storyline of the Expanse and it's inhabitants. I fully suspect that at the end of this season (or whenever) the humans will wipe out the expanse, probably eradication the Xindi. Exerything said by the Xindi's "informants" is true, and no more continunity error. This would be fine by me. It would also be a fine way to explore a possible Prime Directive. Don't take this as a personal insult or anything, becuase it's not meant to be. Star Trek is not some "set in stone" formula for all of time! It should be chaging and evolving. I've been watching since I was a child 20+ years ago and with the execption of most of Voyager, I've enjoyed every version of Star Trek for it's unique attitudes and outlook on humanity and the greater universe. As much as it pains me to say it, I do still trust Berman and Braga to do this write, especially when they've got a really good team of writers, as has been exhibited this season so far. Just... enjoy the ride...
    
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    - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
      By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:37:11 on Jan 04, 2004
      
      Quote:"Exerything said by the Xindi's "informants" is true, and no more continunity error. This would be fine by me. It would also be a fine way to explore a possible Prime Directive"
      
      You don't honestly think that the Xindi will be destroyed by ENT do you? That will never happen. The ending of this Xindi arc is going to be yet another "temporal/time travel" kind. It will be silly and be a major let down. You will NOT see a blood bath. Despite the fact they have made the Xindi ruthless.
      
      Quote:"I do still trust Berman and Braga to do this write"
      
      WHY on Earth would you trust these two to do anything right?
      
      Quote:"especially when they've got a really good team of writers, as has been exhibited this season so far. "
      
      The only reason why they have any success this year is becaues B&B are NOT writing. Which shows everyone that they ARE the problem. The writing was shit. Since this is the case. It is very clear that these two should never write another Trek episode again.
      
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      - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Brent (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:00:06 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        Well, when I said the Enterprise will destory the Xindi, I didn't mean in a bloodbath - that would be very silly and unrealistic (aka: Voyager vs. the Borg). However, I would enjoy seeing them destory the Xindi as a result of destorying the Spheres, to try and destory the Expanse, to try and return home (in that typically irrational human way of plowing through anything in your path). To me, it would be much more interesting if they made a peaceful resolution with the Xindi and then wiped them out in a "whoops" type of way, to make humans a little more thoughtful of their effects on other race's life, thus beginning a need for the Prime Directive. I think this would be fun and promote continuity while giving people (both viewers and characters) something to think about in the end. Of course, very seldom do things work out exactly as you want them to, so I agree that this will probably not happen! :) I also agree that Berman and Braga should be kept far away from writing, but I think as Producers they're o.k.. I agree that they could do better, but I think they could do a lot worse as well! Thanks for your feedback!
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:21:08 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Well, when I said the Enterprise will destory the Xindi, I didn't mean in a bloodbath - that would be very silly and unrealistic (aka: Voyager vs. the Borg).
        
        Which VOY ep do they destroy the Borg in a bloodbath?
        
        Quote:
        
        However, I would enjoy seeing them destory the Xindi as a result of destorying the Spheres, to try and destory the Expanse, to try and return home (in that typically irrational human way of plowing through anything in your path).
        
        It is obvious that the network of spheres will be destroyed or the show will shift timeframes because there is no such network of spheres in later series.
        
        Quote:
        
        To me, it would be much more interesting if they made a peaceful resolution with the Xindi and then wiped them out in a "whoops" type of way, to make humans a little more thoughtful of their effects on other race's life, thus beginning a need for the Prime Directive.
        
        Why a "whoops"? There was supposedly a "whoops" in ENT "Shockwave I & II", although it turned out to be Suliban-generated.
        
        Quote:
        
        I think this would be fun and promote continuity while giving people (both viewers and characters) something to think about in the end. Of course, very seldom do things work out exactly as you want them to, so I agree that this will probably not happen! :) I also agree that Berman and Braga should be kept far away from writing, but I think as Producers they're o.k.. I agree that they could do better, but I think they could do a lot worse as well! Thanks for your feedback!
        
        Right now as it stands, they started something with this arc that is like playing with fire and will need to do some very creative writing in order to get out of it in a meaningful way.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Brent (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:40:40 on Jan 04, 2004 | (2)
        
        Quote:
        Which VOY ep do they destroy the Borg in a bloodbath?
        
        -Well, I didn't literally mean that to refer to the bloodbath, just the unrealistic "one ship against an empire and surviving" timeline of the later Voyager seasons.
        
        Quote:
        It is obvious that the network of spheres will be destroyed or the show will shift timeframes because there is no such network of spheres in later series.
        
        -That is obvious, and that wasn't the paint I was making. I was making the point that I'd like to see the humans wipe out the Xindi as a result of doing this. Must everything be a point of contention?
        
        Quote:
        Why a "whoops"? There was supposedly a "whoops" in ENT "Shockwave I & II", although it turned out to be Suliban-generated.
        
        Just to me, a "whoops" would be much more interesting for the future of the series than would a we couldn't make peace with them so we killed them type of ending. It's much more interesting (for me) to consider the fact that the crew messed (EDIT: didn't wanna cuss there) up becuase they didn't think logically and rationally before they destory the speheres (this particular perspective of mine stemming from my idea that the humans make peace with the Xindi, then blow up the speheres, then kill the Xindi indirectly becuase of this - all just idealogical thoughts of mine which probably won't happen).
        
        Quote:
        Right now as it stands, they started something with this arc that is like playing with fire and will need to do some very creative writing in order to get out of it in a meaningful way.
        
        I agree with this, and I would enjoy greatly if an idea similar to mine was the final one, it would clean up the "physcial" continuity mess, leaving only the "memorial" continuity (which could presumably (and sloppily) be covered up by saying "humans were very sorry about the mess, they promised they'd do better and it was all forgotten" heh)
        
        These entries of mine are written only from the perspective of my personal opinions and visions for what would make this a remarkable storytelling season for Enterprise, so much of what I've said here is based only on theory and inference, not on any official information. Just so everyone knows I'm not crazy and/or imagining episodes. These ideas are just personal ideals, nothing more! :P
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:00:35 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Quote:Which VOY ep do they destroy the Borg in a bloodbath?
        
        -Well, I didn't literally mean that to refer to the bloodbath, just the unrealistic "one ship against an empire and surviving" timeline of the later Voyager seasons.
        
        So you don't agree with the introduction and presence of Species 8472?
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:It is obvious that the network of spheres will be destroyed or the show will shift timeframes because there is no such network of spheres in later series.
        
        -That is obvious, and that wasn't the paint I was making. I was making the point that I'd like to see the humans wipe out the Xindi as a result of doing this. Must everything be a point of contention?
        
        Isn't that what a "discussion" board is about? People make statements and/or "arguments" and sometimes there are those of us who want to determine exactly what it is that you are trying to say. ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:Why a "whoops"? There was supposedly a "whoops" in ENT "Shockwave I & II", although it turned out to be Suliban-generated.
        
        Just to me, a "whoops" would be much more interesting for the future of the series than would a we couldn't make peace with them so we killed them type of ending.
        
        Seems when you start off an arc with your Captain throwing people into airlocks to torture them for information (which would be against the equivalent of the Geneva Conventions), then what's wrong with wiping them all out in the end? Isn't that what "fans" want? "Darker", "grittier", "pushing the envelope"?
        
        ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        It's much more interesting (for me) to consider the fact that the crew messed (EDIT: didn't wanna cuss there) up becuase they didn't think logically and rationally before they destory the speheres (this particular perspective of mine stemming from my idea that the humans make peace with the Xindi, then blow up the speheres, then kill the Xindi indirectly becuase of this - all just idealogical thoughts of mine which probably won't happen).
        
        Well... based on "Carpenter Street", the ep that everyone around here loves to hate because they felt it added nothing to the Xindi arc and was "stupid", it seems the Xindi can exist just fine outside of the Expanse. Seems that 3 of them went back into time to Earth to do a little experimenting. ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:Right now as it stands, they started something with this arc that is like playing with fire and will need to do some very creative writing in order to get out of it in a meaningful way.
        
        I agree with this, and I would enjoy greatly if an idea similar to mine was the final one, it would clean up the "physcial" continuity mess, leaving only the "memorial" continuity (which could presumably (and sloppily) be covered up by saying "humans were very sorry about the mess, they promised they'd do better and it was all forgotten" heh)
        
        Except that the TCW is still there, with agents who may attempt to prevent this or screw with it.
        
        Quote:
        
        These entries of mine are written only from the perspective of my personal opinions and visions for what would make this a remarkable storytelling season for Enterprise, so much of what I've said here is based only on theory and inference, not on any official information. Just so everyone knows I'm not crazy and/or imagining episodes. These ideas are just personal ideals, nothing more! :P
        
        That is what speculation is about, but it must be grounded in something non-contradictory.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Brent (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:27:18 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        Quote:
        So you don't agree with the introduction and presence of Species 8472?
        
        Oh I have no problem with Species 8472, or that they helped Voyager along the way, but Voyager also did (in my opinion) a little too much zany surviving against the Borg. Enterprise in the Expanse with all of these Xindi is virtually as horrid a prospect (realistic survival-wise), and I was merely arguing for a more realistic outcome for Enterprise. Realistic in the sense of letting them try and make peace rather than taking on an entire group of Empires (in the sense that each Xindi group of kind of autonomous). Just to me, I'd rather see peace than the Enterprise somehow manging to manhandle the entire Xindi council and their respective Empires (or whatever it is they have?).
        
        Quote:
        Isn't that what a "discussion" board is about? People make statements and/or "arguments" and sometimes there are those of us who want to determine exactly what it is that you are trying to say. ;-)
        
        This is true, I just thought I'd made it clear, but if it wasn't, it wasn't. ;)
        
        Quote:
        Seems when you start off an arc with your Captain throwing people into airlocks to torture them for information (which would be against the equivalent of the Geneva Conventions)
        
        Well, I'd like to think that that's pretty realistic of a typical, rash human at first, but as things move along (and he's met the Sloth, and seeminly going to meet the baby Insectoids) that Archer would begin to realise that: "maybe these guys aren't ALL bad". To me, these are all human responses. Emotional, that is... at first rash and pouty because someone's trying to beat up on your world, and eventually coming to grips and recognising that these people aren't monsters, they're just misinformed. I've seen nothing this season to indicate that Archer's still as mad as when he came into the Expanse. He's still driven, yes, but he's not in the rage frame of mind anymore... at least not when it's not necessary. I argue that the randomness of his characher is, in fact, very intentionally and well-written so far. Be it for bad or good, it's how I'd probably be behaving if things went how they have so far.
        
        Quote:
        what's wrong with wiping them all out in the end? Isn't that what "fans" want? "Darker", "grittier", "pushing the envelope"?
        
        I agree that this is what the fans supposodely want, but it's not what I really want hah - just to be completely self-centered. I agree that darker and gritter is good, but I don't necessarily see how genocide is darker and gritter in a good way. To me, darker and gritter is more atmospheric and character-based, not about how much gore or death you can slip in. This is why I still like non-slasher horror. To me, the best horror are the ones where very few people die and lots of people are just utterly mortified! :P
        
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        Well... based on "Carpenter Street", the ep that everyone around here loves to hate because they felt it added nothing to the Xindi arc and was "stupid", it seems the Xindi can exist just fine outside of the Expanse. Seems that 3 of them went back into time to Earth to do a little experimenting. ;-)
        
        This is true, too. Thanks for pointing that out. I forgot about that ep., which really defeats my whole ideal story arc (unless short-term separation isn't so bad - ;)). Personally, I don't understand why the fans didn't like this show. It did add to the storyline, it showed another way in which the Xindi were trying to perfect their weapon, and also indicated that they're pretty damn good at time travel themselves (or at least their "advisor" is). In my opinion, it also showed that they may not be quite as mean as thought... I mean... they only seem to wanna hurt humans based on this weapon... not plants or animals :P at least not if possible! :P nevermind, I'm just looking at it much too positively!
        
        Quote:
        Except that the TCW is still there, with agents who may attempt to prevent this or screw with it.
        
        Ain't that the truth! :P
        
        Quote:
        That is what speculation is about, but it must be grounded in something non-contradictory.
        
        I agree, and I do appreciate you reminding me about "Carpenter Street", even if it does throw my theory out the window. :) Information is everyone's friend, and the more information I can base my baseless theories on the better! :)
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:32:41 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        Quote:
        
        Oh I have no problem with Species 8472, or that they helped Voyager along the way, but Voyager also did (in my opinion) a little too much zany surviving against the Borg.
        
        Hmmm.... There were 172 hours worth of VOY (which includes 2-part eps) and only 16 hours of it dealt with the Borg (not counting 7 of 9 or the Borg kids who were permanently on board, and these Borg stories were either a main story or backstory - ie., finding a piece of tech). In fact, the first inkling of Borg didn't occur until halfway through the 3rd season at the very end of "Blood Fever". The galaxy is a BIG place and so is the Delta Quadrant. ;-)
        
        So suffice it to say, VOY did not = endless "Borg" stories for 7 years.
        
        Quote:
        
        Enterprise in the Expanse with all of these Xindi is virtually as horrid a prospect (realistic survival-wise), and I was merely arguing for a more realistic outcome for Enterprise. Realistic in the sense of letting them try and make peace rather than taking on an entire group of Empires (in the sense that each Xindi group of kind of autonomous).
        
        Well it seems obvious that this relationship with the Xindi-Sloth Gralik is that attempt and I understand that this character is supposed to return in a later ep.
        
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        Just to me, I'd rather see peace than the Enterprise somehow manging to manhandle the entire Xindi council and their respective Empires (or whatever it is they have?).
        
        Well now many people have pointed out that the Xindi Council has essentially become a big joke.
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:Isn't that what a "discussion" board is about? People make statements and/or "arguments" and sometimes there are those of us who want to determine exactly what it is that you are trying to say. ;-)
        
        This is true, I just thought I'd made it clear, but if it wasn't, it wasn't. ;)
        
        ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:Seems when you start off an arc with your Captain throwing people into airlocks to torture them for information (which would be against the equivalent of the Geneva Conventions)
        
        Well, I'd like to think that that's pretty realistic of a typical, rash human at first, but as things move along (and he's met the Sloth, and seeminly going to meet the baby Insectoids) that Archer would begin to realise that: "maybe these guys aren't ALL bad". To me, these are all human responses. Emotional, that is... at first rash and pouty because someone's trying to beat up on your world, and eventually coming to grips and recognising that these people aren't monsters, they're just misinformed.
        
        But here's the problem and a weakness right there. This show started with some presumption that there was no "Federation", which from the continuity standpoint is true. And this show has established a "Star Fleet" at this point in time (although no Star Fleet Academy has been mentioned yet because to do so would violate canon).
        
        However it has mistaken "prequel" and "no Federation" to for some reason equal a "ruless Star Fleet" meaning that this organization is functioning on vapor. Even though we know that traditional militaries and/or space organizations in the here and now have certain "rules", "Standards of Procedure", and "Protocols". Yet we have seen no evidence of this from this time frame's Star Fleet. And thus the throwing of someone in an airlock while the Battalion Chief objects but looks on and no one cites any Code of Law regarding the treatment of prisoners (which should exist). And so ENT "Anomaly", although scoring in the "kick butt" category with young fans, makes the show and Star Fleet lose all credibility because it suggests that such behavior is sanctioned by higher authorities. And in this case, if it is, then that should be STATED. Which then adds a new layer of drama to the ep. And if it isn't, then that should ALSO be STATED. Which again, would add a layer of drama and underscore the claim that Archer was acting "emotionally".
        
        In "ST: The Undiscovered Country", Kirk and McCoy are held by the Klingon Empire as the responsible parties behind the death of the Klingon Chancellor Gorkon. When many attempt to craft some way of keeping them from remaining in custody and the diplomatic arguments ensue, it is pointed out that the Feds must basically go along with the program and the President states "This President is not above the law".
        
        And in ENT, somehow, somewhere, a line must be drawn and the "law" MUST be defined for this era, so that one can put such behavior as we have seen, into some kind of perspective. This is irrespective of any existance of "General Order One" or the "Prime Directive". Before these things were put in place, Earth SHOULD HAVE had laws, procedures, protocols for its people and its uniformed services.
        
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        I've seen nothing this season to indicate that Archer's still as mad as when he came into the Expanse. He's still driven, yes, but he's not in the rage frame of mind anymore... at least not when it's not necessary.
        
        It depends on the ep. Some eps he's scowling, others he's relatively calm. Sortof shizophrenic, IMHO. ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        I argue that the randomness of his characher is, in fact, very intentionally and well-written so far. Be it for bad or good, it's how I'd probably be behaving if things went how they have so far.
        
        I think it was poor writing personally. Traditionally in a Trek, people want to latch onto the Captain. If you want wild swings, let your other characters do that (although T'Pol certainly fits that category. :\) Otherwise the believability of his leadership capabilities and the reason why he got the job rather than A.G. Robinson, will really come into question.
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:what's wrong with wiping them all out in the end? Isn't that what "fans" want? "Darker", "grittier", "pushing the envelope"?
        
        I agree that this is what the fans supposodely want, but it's not what I really want hah - just to be completely self-centered. I agree that darker and gritter is good, but I don't necessarily see how genocide is darker and gritter in a good way.
        
        But that's just it. The darker this show goes, the more pathological people seem to want it. ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        To me, darker and gritter is more atmospheric and character-based, not about how much gore or death you can slip in. This is why I still like non-slasher horror. To me, the best horror are the ones where very few people die and lots of people are just utterly mortified! :P
        
        But then the "dark" sets and the "nighttime" planet scenes aren't enough for some. They want pure, unadulterated violence and rage. No talking. No discussions. Blow them all away.
        
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        Quote:Well... based on "Carpenter Street", the ep that everyone around here loves to hate because they felt it added nothing to the Xindi arc and was "stupid", it seems the Xindi can exist just fine outside of the Expanse. Seems that 3 of them went back into time to Earth to do a little experimenting. ;-)
        
        This is true, too. Thanks for pointing that out. I forgot about that ep., which really defeats my whole ideal story arc (unless short-term separation isn't so bad - ;)).
        
        The way that ep ran, they didn't appear to have been there for that short a time. They had to find this Loomis guy and then he had to find all these Braga prostitutes with different blood types and it looked like that warehouse had a pile of people in there by the time Archer comes along (based on needing types A+/A-, B+/B-, O+/O-, AB+/AB-).
        
        Quote:
        
        Personally, I don't understand why the fans didn't like this show. It did add to the storyline, it showed another way in which the Xindi were trying to perfect their weapon, and also indicated that they're pretty damn good at time travel themselves (or at least their "advisor" is). In my opinion, it also showed that they may not be quite as mean as thought... I mean... they only seem to wanna hurt humans based on this weapon... not plants or animals :P at least not if possible! :P nevermind, I'm just looking at it much too positively!
        
        Well... it was basically a "to-be-continued" ep because at the end, the Command Center is filled with 3 dead Xindi, a possible protype weapon, and a vial of stuff that could be the bioweapon's ordinance that Archer hands to Phlox to analyze. So we don't know what the analysis of that weapon thing has revealed, and we don't really know what's in that vial. But perhaps we'll find out
        
        NEXT TIME ON STAR TREK ENTERPRISE
        
        ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:Except that the TCW is still there, with agents who may attempt to prevent this or screw with it.
        
        Ain't that the truth! :P
        
        And Silik may show up again... And I'm curious about who was helping Sarin from "Broken Bow". Perhaps one day that will be followed up.
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:That is what speculation is about, but it must be grounded in something non-contradictory.
        
        I agree, and I do appreciate you reminding me about "Carpenter Street", even if it does throw my theory out the window. :) Information is everyone's friend, and the more information I can base my baseless theories on the better! :)
        
        'Sall right. That's what his place is for. :-)
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:24:52 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        And so ENT "Anomaly", although scoring in the "kick butt" category with young fans, makes the show and Star Fleet lose all credibility because it suggests that such behavior is sanctioned by higher authorities.
        
        What does being a "young viewer" have to do with it?
        
        There is no higher authority on the NX-01 than Archer. We were given no indication that Forrest or anyone else "sanctioned" the captain's actions from above. We don't even know that anyone but Reed, Archer, the prisoner, and the few security guards even know what Archer did. Furthermore, why would Reed start quoting prisoner's rights to Archer? It has been made clear that the entire crew is pretty gun-ho to retaliate against the Xindi for the attack on Earth and it would've been completely out of character for the trigger-happy Reed to suddenly be talking back to his captain and telling him that he shouldn't treat a prisoner one way or another. Finally, the prisoner was really not tortured as everyone is trying to argue. He was threatened. We don't know if Archer would've really let him die. The guy came out of the chamber relatively unscathed, a little short of breath. So that's a long way from Archer actually killing him. It was mostly a psychological tactic, facing the prisoner with death if he didn't give the necessary information, and since he came through, there is no way to know what Archer would've done had the situation continued. Therefore condemning the character, the writers, or the show on such a broad level is silly.
        
        --------
        
        It's a rip-off. / We're stepped on, and cheated! / We're flat, stone-cold lied to / But we're not defeated / No!
        
        Halen. "The Dream is Over."
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:28:45 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Furthermore, why would Reed start quoting prisoner's rights to Archer? It has been made clear that the entire crew is pretty gun-ho to retaliate against the Xindi for the attack on Earth and it would've been completely out of character for the trigger-happy Reed to suddenly be talking back to his captain and telling him that he shouldn't treat a prisoner one way or another.
        
        First, Reed has yet to show such (anti-Xindi) "gun-ho". Second, perhaps you need watch Minefield and Singularity again: Reed has been very much of a mind to criticize Archer's command style and protocol.
        
        Granted, Season Two pretty much discredited the "spit and polish" Reed by assigning him as an accomplice to Tucker's juvenile sense of adventure. One improvement in Season Three is that Reed is now free from being a sidekick to Berman's favorite perennial idiot of a Chief Engineer.
        
        --------------
        Star Trek: Enterprise Figure: Malcolm Reed
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:02:24 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Quote:And so ENT "Anomaly", although scoring in the "kick butt" category with young fans, makes the show and Star Fleet lose all credibility because it suggests that such behavior is sanctioned by higher authorities.
        
        What does being a "young viewer" have to do with it?
        
        Because this board did one of those "snap polls" and the majority of those who post here are between the ages of 25 - 35. And to me and my Trek fan co-workers who are NOT in that age group, "Anomaly" was considered over-violent and the antithesis of Trek.
        
        Quote:
        
        There is no higher authority on the NX-01 than Archer.
        
        Except for his boss - Admiral Forrest. Who has pulled him back before in ENT "Shockwave I" or did that episode disappear off the map because it was in the so-called horrid "2nd season". ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        We were given no indication that Forrest or anyone else "sanctioned" the captain's actions from above.
        
        Do you know what Earth's rules are? Does anyone? Is this crew REALLY flying around blind like it appears they are with people justifying this because of "the Vulcans" and that this show is supposed to be the "first time" out in space, irrespective of the generations of freighters that have been out in space...?? Come on Steve.
        
        Quote:
        
        We don't even know that anyone but Reed, Archer, the prisoner, and the few security guards even know what Archer did.
        
        And the type of sophisticated dialog that you see in DS9, a show that you have been watching and gushing about of late, is MISSING here because before you got to the point of a DS9 "In the Pale Moonlight", you KNEW what the rules and regs were and Sisko even reiterates them RIGHT TO YOUR FACE. And the DRAMA is watching him BREAK those rules right after he's told you what he's about to do is illegal.
        
        Don't you want THAT KIND of sophisticated writing here??
        
        Quote:
        
        Furthermore, why would Reed start quoting prisoner's rights to Archer?
        
        See what I wrote above. Is Reed NOT the Security Chief as well? What the hell is he on board the ship for then? Window dressing? Think man, think!
        
        Quote:
        
        It has been made clear that the entire crew is pretty gun-ho to retaliate against the Xindi for the attack on Earth and it would've been completely out of character for the trigger-happy Reed to suddenly be talking back to his captain and telling him that he shouldn't treat a prisoner one way or another.
        
        That is DRAMA. THAT is CONFLICT. "Conflict" isn't almost killing someone physically. It's that HUMAN touch that adds to the sophistication of the dramatic moment that happened. The showdown between Reed and Archer that could have been one of drawing the line. THAT pirate wasn't a Xindi. So what was the big deal? I could see if Reed might want to kick the sh*t out of a Xindi, but don't you guys have those unspoken "rules"? Perhaps Reed might have said - enough is enough. And that COULD HAVE set him up for being relived of command and further underscored the resolve of this desperate pathetic character of a Captain.
        
        Quote:
        
        Finally, the prisoner was really not tortured as everyone is trying to argue. He was threatened.
        
        At the point when the air is removed and the pressure in the chamber goes below this species ability to breathe without pain (ie., his body is now a higher pressure than the chamber and thus his cells are starting to expand and would eventually explode), then THAT is TORTURE. Do you know what "near 0" atmospheres of pressure means?
        
        Quote:
        
        We don't know if Archer would've really let him die.
        
        That's not the point. The point is that this arrogant jackass of a prisoner is being subjected to PHYSICAL discomfort in order to extract information. You need to go to Amnesty International's website.
        
        Quote:
        
        The guy came out of the chamber relatively unscathed, a little short of breath. So that's a long way from Archer actually killing him.
        
        TORTURE is forbidden under the Geneva Conventions and I expect under whatever Earth conventions were in place during the 22nd century. And if it isn't, THIS needs to be spelled out.
        
        Quote:
        
        It was mostly a psychological tactic, facing the prisoner with death if he didn't give the necessary information, and since he came through, there is no way to know what Archer would've done had the situation continued. Therefore condemning the character, the writers, or the show on such a broad level is silly.
        
        You need some science courses to tell you what happens to an organic being in a chamber that is taken to near-vacuum methinks. ;-)
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Sphire (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:29:10 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        Quote:
        TORTURE is forbidden under the Geneva Conventions and I expect under whatever Earth conventions were in place during the 22nd century. And if it isn't, THIS needs to be spelled out.
        
        Janeway did a similar thing to a fellow Starfleet officer in "Equinox", let alone a member of a genocidal enemy race. Archer was more than justified in what he did considering the circumstances. There are times when morally objectionable actions are required, a recurring theme of DS9. Conversely, I found TNG's constant philosophy of "we must do the right thing regardless of the consequences" noble but hopelessly naive and unrealistic. If you didn't like that "torture" scene in ENT, you must have a really sanitized view of the world.
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:23:37 on Jan 07, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Quote:TORTURE is forbidden under the Geneva Conventions and I expect under whatever Earth conventions were in place during the 22nd century. And if it isn't, THIS needs to be spelled out.
        
        Janeway did a similar thing to a fellow Starfleet officer in "Equinox", let alone a member of a genocidal enemy race.
        
        They did it AGAIN (using Neelix's adulteration of food) to the alien who stole the EMH and sold him to that "Critical Care" facility in VOY "Critical Care". But WHAT is the POINT that I am making? WE (and they) *know* the rules because they were STATED in eps. In TNG "Chain of Command I & II", Picard TELLS Gul Madred WHAT his rights are. It is SPELLED OUT. And when someone BREAKS those rules, then it is a dramatic moment.
        
        In essence, thanks to TOS and additional info in TNG, DS9 and eventually VOY, the Trek infrastructure has been defined. But in this "prequel" time, it really hasn't been defined and needs to be so that it will help shape the direction of the eps to allow that "PREQUEL TIME" to morph into that which we already know.
        
        So just as when we discuss years as being "B.C." ("Before Christ") or "B.C.E" ("Before the Christian Era") and "A.D". ("Anno Domni" or "In the Year of our Lord"), so too do we need to know B.F. ("Before the Federation"), because we already know "A.F." ("After the Federation").
        
        WHAT are the RULES in the 22nd century? THAT is what I'm asking.
        
        Quote:
        
        Archer was more than justified in what he did considering the circumstances.
        
        Who cares if he's justified or not for the sake of what I am saying here? The POINT is that you LOSE a "DS9 dramatic moment", when you let your characters run amok for running amok's sake. Since this show is being billed as a "prequel" and since all these hints have been dropped that say that "one day" some "directive" will be created or "one day" blah blah... and these "one days" are supposedly different from what the CURRENT is....Then I ask again, WHAT is the current?
        
        Quote:
        
        There are times when morally objectionable actions are required, a recurring theme of DS9.
        
        But AGAIN - how do you know this? Because Star Fleet AND Federation Rules and Regs and Directives and Protocols and Standards have been told to you through the 600+ episodes and movies. So YOU know what they are allowed to do and not allowed to do. And then THAT will define and put into perspective what it is that your characters are doing. The fact that Archer and Reed told some alien species in ENT "The Communicator" a tall tale about them being genetically enhanced protypes of the species' enemies, and then their firing off phase pistols and Tucker showing up in a cloaked Suliban Celll ship to rescue them -- certainly makes the audience who is aware that this show hasn't created a "Prime Directive" yet, speculate on what might happen to the people on that planet after this exposure. But you can only speculate because you know they have no Prime Directive. But right now, THAT is the only thing that we DO know, so that one is easy and the fact that you can say in your mind - "Uh ohhh...." is because you know this piece of info about what things are like in the 22nd century with respect to interference (it is a non-issue at this point).
        
        Conflict isn't just seeing who can beat and maim who the most. It is ALSO the batle of wills. Of opposites. And right now, there's no one who is "opposite" here to provide a contrast.
        
        So for example, how do you know that the "Courts of 2079" where people are GUILTY until PROVEN INNOCENT per Q in TNG "Encounter at Farpoint I & II", aren't STILL in effect in the 22nd century? What impact might that have on this series or actions of characters in the series? If someone decides to cross some line and figures "oh well I'm guilty anyway, might as well go all the way", you could have a character go totally ballistic and not care... And that's because they figured, "who cares? I'm a dead man anyway."
        
        Quote:
        
        Conversely, I found TNG's constant philosophy of "we must do the right thing regardless of the consequences" noble but hopelessly naive and unrealistic.
        
        What was done in TNG has nothing to do with being "noble" and EVERYTHING to do to providing an "ESCAPE" and something "different" and something "hopeful" and something "to look forward to" that was the ANTITHESIS of the usual Armagedon-style Sci Fi that is common within the genre. So rather than wallow in a pathologically negative state of a storyline, the episodes introduce a CONFLICT and have the characters attempt to resolve that conflict to a "positive" conclusion.
        
        Quote:
        
        If you didn't like that "torture" scene in ENT, you must have a really sanitized view of the world.
        
        You pre-suppose too much methinks. And if you can't see the addition of a new and deeper level of sophistication in this show by what has been suggested in my critique, then that is your loss, not mine.
        
        To fully understand what is arguably THE #1 favorite ep of DS9 "In the Pale Moonlight", which is an essay on a man REFLECTING on his morality, one might do this by analyzing a quote from Sisko in that ep:
        
        "My father used to say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
        
        And THAT is the main point of that ep, irrespective of the outcome and how he supposedly shoved his feelings aside at the end. Hell... you could have NAMED the ep based solely on that quote - call it "The Road to Hell..." or "Paved with Good Intentions". One could write a whole BOOK on just that one quoted line. Because it's meaning is so deep and so full and SO HUMAN and can be applied in so many diffrent ways.
        
        And during the entire 40+ minutes, between the log narration and the flashbacks, Sisko is describing how he not only convinced himself, but others, to BREAK THE LAW. And he finds that the more he does it, the more he HAS to do it. To the point where he ticks off offenses to himself including "coverups" and "bribery". And he does this the entire episode!
        
        And what could be equally dramatic within this Xindi arc, is one ep where Archer breaks down under stress and begins to re-evaluate what it is he's doing, why he's doing it, is it worth it, is Earth worth it, is life fair, why him, why now... ALL the questions of HUMANITY. And instead of wasting time with rub-downs, things need to happen that will build to this. Not just trying to figure out the "Xindi question", but to figure out THEMSELVES as well.
        
        Now if none of you all who complain about critiques that might help bring this show into the realm of DS9 and that have tried to go beyond "ENT SUX" comments, because you are so emotionally involved in the surface-plot and so defensive, and can't see the VALUE of critique, then that's sad.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: deltaflyer (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:12:58 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        wow! u know about sciene. im so impressed. me thinks u r a fool
        
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        Yes I am Australian...AND NO I DO NOT OWN A KANGAROO! And it's typical that we were made the last ones to join the federation....
        
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        You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:56:04 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        So suffice it to say, VOY did not = endless "Borg" stories for 7 years.
        
        I don't think Brent was saying this, but I'll wait and see if he states anything on the subject.
        
        Quote:
        Hmmm.... There were 172 hours worth of VOY (which includes 2-part eps) and only 16 hours of it dealt with the Borg (not counting 7 of 9 or the Borg kids who were permanently on board, and these Borg stories were either a main story or backstory - ie., finding a piece of tech). In fact, the first inkling of Borg didn't occur until halfway through the 3rd season at the very end of "Blood Fever". The galaxy is a BIG place and so is the Delta Quadrant. ;-)
        
        Still, it felt like a bit much sometimes, at least to me. I haven't counted myself to confirm which episodes you are including (so I don't know, for instance, if you are counting "Blood Fever" for it's brief Borg appearance), but assuming that most of those 16 were heavily Borg-themed episodes (please correct me if this is not the case), it breaks down as follows:
        
        172 episodes (counting telefilms as two 1-hour episodes)
        -56 "Pre-Borg" epsiodes before "Blood Fever"*
        ===
        116 "Borg-era" episodes
        
        *This is in production order. In airdate order, the number would be 57, since it would include "Coda".
        
        16/116 = 0.137931034
        
        This means that, once Voyager started involving the Borg, around 14% of their episodes heavily involved them (not counting, as you say, 7 of 9, the Borg kids, etc. -- and rightfully so, for our purposes).
        
        For many species, this would feel like nothing unusual... The Klingons, Cardassians, the members of the Dominion, even the Kazon... But the Borg are something special. The Borg are virtually indestructible. One of the reasons they were barely on TNG is the fact that they should be almost impossible to beat. It presses credibility to say that the Enterprise and her crew survived so many encounters with the Borg, and they only had three battles against the Borg collective. Flash back with me to the TNG Borg episodes...
        
        "The Neutral Zone" -- The Enterprise did not encounter the Borg, but they destroyed several human and Romulan colonies. (The Borg, not the Enterprise.)
        "Q Who?" (Encounter #1) -- The Enterprise suffers 18 casualties and only survives thanks to Q. (May not be exactly 18 -- I'm going from memory.)
        "The Best of Both Worlds" (Encounter #2) -- The Enterprise nearly loses her captain. Several Federation colonies are destroyed. 40,000 people die in a single battle. (This may only be Federation figures. I can't recall if this includes the Klingon ships destroyed in Wolf 359.)
        "I, Borg" -- Although they encounter a single drone, the Enterprise does what any reasonable person would do when realizing the Borg are coming: They get their butts outta there (or at least outta sight).
        "Descent" -- The Enterprise encounter some less-than-invulnerable NON-COLLECTIVE Borg.
        First Contact (Encounter #3) -- Starfleet faces the Borg. Many ships destroyed, possibly thousands dead thanks to a single cube. The Enterprise is halfway assimilated, and much of the crew is lost.
        
        I don't recall any Voyager eps where losses on any reasonable scale are encountered. Where damage is done, it is rarely to Voyager herself. Janeway may have been assimilated, but she let it happen intentionally. As the show went on the Borg seemed easier and easier to defeat, and far less impressive as an enemy.
        
        I don't know which episodes you are including in that 16, so I don't know how involved the Borg were in each one. After all, it is not difficult to believe that they survived their horrible encounter with the Borg in "Blood Fever". ;-) However, whether Voyager had 16 major encounters with the Borg or only 6 encounters, it was pushing credibility to have her come out virtually unscarred after each one, with crew fully intact (in most cases). Again, my main point: "Endless Borg" or not, it may have been too much for their own good. :-(
        
        --------
        
        "You know what six movies average out to be really good? The first six Star Trek movies!" -- Fry, Futurama
        
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        RE: You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:46:52 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Quote:So suffice it to say, VOY did not = endless "Borg" stories for 7 years.
        
        I don't think Brent was saying this, but I'll wait and see if he states anything on the subject.
        
        Except that there have been a number of comments in various threads that seem to over-emphasize the role of VOY and the Borg. And as more and more comments such as those continue, more and more people continue to repeat them, to the point where a "repetition is knowledge" and "if you say it enough times it becomes fact" scenario occurs. And such happened to much of DS9 while it was on the air (ie., the Bajoran "soap opera" and other such things), until such time when people are finally re-watching DS9 (generally in order) to put it all into perspective.
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:Hmmm.... There were 172 hours worth of VOY (which includes 2-part eps) and only 16 hours of it dealt with the Borg (not counting 7 of 9 or the Borg kids who were permanently on board, and these Borg stories were either a main story or backstory - ie., finding a piece of tech). In fact, the first inkling of Borg didn't occur until halfway through the 3rd season at the very end of "Blood Fever". The galaxy is a BIG place and so is the Delta Quadrant. ;-)
        
        Still, it felt like a bit much sometimes, at least to me. I haven't counted myself to confirm which episodes you are including (so I don't know, for instance, if you are counting "Blood Fever" for it's brief Borg appearance),
        
        Yes I am.
        
        Quote:
        
        but assuming that most of those 16 were heavily Borg-themed episodes (please correct me if this is not the case),
        
        A few are ancillary or minor Borg-themed eps relating to either a piece of Borg technology or a brief encounter by some other alien(s), with the Borg.
        
        Quote:
        
        it breaks down as follows:
        
        172 episodes (counting telefilms as two 1-hour episodes)
        -56 "Pre-Borg" epsiodes before "Blood Fever"*
        
        57 before "Blood Fever", which was #58
        
        Quote:
        
        ===
        116 "Borg-era" episodes
        
        115
        
        Quote:
        
        *This is in production order. In airdate order, the number would be 57, since it would include "Coda".
        
        58
        
        VOY "Coda" was broadcast just prior to "Blood Fever".
        
        Quote:
        
        16/116 = 0.137931034
        
        16/115 = 0.1391304
        
        ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        This means that, once Voyager started involving the Borg, around 14% of their episodes heavily involved them (not counting, as you say, 7 of 9, the Borg kids, etc. -- and rightfully so, for our purposes).
        
        And in that case, because they were "crew" in the sense of being stationed on the ship - although I included their intial introduction episode. The eps included were the 4, Borg-related 2-parters:
        
        "Scorpion I & II" (Contact with Species 8472 and Borg Space)
        
        "Dark Frontier I & II" (Contact with the Borg Queen)
        
        "Unimatrix 0 I & II" (Contact with the Borg Queen)
        
        "Endgame I & II" (Contact with the Borg Queen)
        
        which = 8.
        
        Also included were
        
        "Blood Fever" (Dead Borg drones found)
        "Unity" (previously-assimilated, now "independent" Borg encountered by Chakotay)
        "The Raven" (7 of 9's parents' ship which first encountered the Borg 11 years before Picard)
        "Drone" (29th century Borg created by transporter accident)
        "Hope and Fear" (alien who is the sole survivor of an assimilated species blames the crew and attempts to force them into an encounter with the Borg)
        "Infinite Regress" (a piece of Borg technology causes a multiple personality disorder in 7)
        "Collective" (Borg children found)
        "Survival Instinct" (crew stumbles upon some of 7's former group - 2, 3, and 4 of 9, one of them Admiral Forrest...errr Vaughn Armstrong...;-))
        
        Suffice it to say that 16/172 = 0.0930232 or 9% of the total. The point being that there is much ado about the Borg in VOY when there really wasn't that much. Even despite the fact that the Borg supposedly originated in the Delta Quadrant. So at some point, being thrown there, they would have to run into them just as certainly as the crew of DS9 would eventually run into the Founders, Jem'Hadar, or Vorta (which they did).
        
        Quote:
        
        For many species, this would feel like nothing unusual... The Klingons, Cardassians, the members of the Dominion, even the Kazon... But the Borg are something special. The Borg are virtually indestructible. One of the reasons they were barely on TNG is the fact that they should be almost impossible to beat.
        
        Until TNG "I, Borg". Which as many have noted, set the stage for the downfall of these combatants. VOY is not unique in this regard. The means for defanging the Borg originated in TNG, and most of the instances of doing so have revolved around variations of that theme.
        
        Quote:
        
        It presses credibility to say that the Enterprise and her crew survived so many encounters with the Borg, and they only had three battles against the Borg collective. Flash back with me to the TNG Borg episodes...
        
        "The Neutral Zone" -- The Enterprise did not encounter the Borg, but they destroyed several human and Romulan colonies. (The Borg, not the Enterprise.)
        "Q Who?" (Encounter #1) -- The Enterprise suffers 18 casualties and only survives thanks to Q. (May not be exactly 18 -- I'm going from memory.)
        "The Best of Both Worlds" (Encounter #2) -- The Enterprise nearly loses her captain. Several Federation colonies are destroyed. 40,000 people die in a single battle. (This may only be Federation figures. I can't recall if this includes the Klingon ships destroyed in Wolf 359.)
        
        I don't recall any Klingon ships mentioned. However I do recall that Star Fleet, under the directorship of Commader Shelby, embarked on a fierce rebuilding and research effort to suitably equip their newer ships (and retrofit their older ships) in order to stave off a Borg attack. And consider that USS Voyager had NOT been built yet at this time.
        
        Quote:
        
        "I, Borg" -- Although they encounter a single drone, the Enterprise does what any reasonable person would do when realizing the Borg are coming: They get their butts outta there (or at least outta sight).
        
        You forgot something. Like... um... Re-introducing Hugh back into the Collective? As a what? An "individual"?
        
        Quote:
        
        "Descent" -- The Enterprise encounter some less-than-invulnerable NON-COLLECTIVE Borg.
        
        Except that Lore is in control of them, which is a major issue.
        
        Quote:
        
        First Contact (Encounter #3) -- Starfleet faces the Borg. Many ships destroyed, possibly thousands dead thanks to a single cube. The Enterprise is halfway assimilated, and much of the crew is lost.
        
        ????
        
        "Much" of the crew isn't lost. And that ship is certainly not "half way" assimilated. The decks around Engineering are assimilated. If the Galaxy Class held 1000+, what was the crew complement on the supposedly larger Sovereign class?
        
        Quote:
        
        I don't recall any Voyager eps where losses on any reasonable scale are encountered.
        
        The VERY FIRST first encounter of the ship with a Borg CUBE is when? "Scorpion I & II". And what do they find when they first reach that area of space? Do you know? Do you even know what episode I'm talking about? Do you even know any of the plot for it? Obviously not. LOL
        
        Quote:
        
        Where damage is done, it is rarely to Voyager herself.
        
        Again, people who have amnesia. LOL What was happening that caused 7 of 9 to eventually become part of the VOY crew? Do you know?
        
        Quote:
        
        Janeway may have been assimilated, but she let it happen intentionally. As the show went on the Borg seemed easier and easier to defeat, and far less impressive as an enemy.
        
        Out of 4, direct Borg-encounter episodes? Are you kidding me? More and more amnesia. I wish people would quit "guessing" and either go out and rent the thing or BitTorrent it or whatever.
        
        What you have just described, is akin to me saying "Well you know, all Sisko did all day was toss his baseball around his office, carry on a gay relationship with Jadzia because he was in love with Curzon the slug, all while he occassionally passed out from experiencing the psychotic visions of a meglomanic, and in ignorance of the fact that his crew spent all day in Quark's holosuites fantasizing about the Alamo.
        
        Now if I started a thread saying just that, can you imagine the response I would get around here?
        
        That's what you all sound like.
        
        Quote:
        
        I don't know which episodes you are including in that 16, so I don't know how involved the Borg were in each one.
        
        They are listed above.
        
        Quote:
        
        After all, it is not difficult to believe that they survived their horrible encounter with the Borg in "Blood Fever". ;-)
        
        You have to ask Vorik and B'Elanna about that. They might disagree. ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        However, whether Voyager had 16 major encounters with the Borg or only 6 encounters, it was pushing credibility to have her come out virtually unscarred after each one, with crew fully intact (in most cases). Again, my main point: "Endless Borg" or not, it may have been too much for their own good. :-(
        
        Again - watch the episodes and THEN argue. But I know you won't. ;-)
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:22:14 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Until TNG "I, Borg". Which as many have noted, set the stage for the downfall of these combatants. VOY is not unique in this regard. The means for defanging the Borg originated in TNG, and most of the instances of doing so have revolved around variations of that theme.
        
        This repeated "de-fanging" is where the problem lies... How many times can the intrepid crews of the Enterprise and Voyager beat the Borg before it seems rather silly for the audience to think them practically invulnerable. Sadly, Voyager was at a disadvantage here... The Voyager defeats of the Borg would not have seemed so bad if they were not being added to the previous TNG defeats.
        
        Quote:
        I don't recall any Klingon ships mentioned.
        
        This was mentioned in "The Drumhead".
        
        Quote:
        However I do recall that Star Fleet, under the directorship of Commader Shelby, embarked on a fierce rebuilding and research effort to suitably equip their newer ships (and retrofit their older ships) in order to stave off a Borg attack. And consider that USS Voyager had NOT been built yet at this time.
        
        Somehow I doubt it was more prepared than the many newer ships in First Contact, which were falling one by one against a single cube. The implication of the film is that none would have survived without Picard's intervention.
        
        Quote:
        You forgot something. Like... um... Re-introducing Hugh back into the Collective? As a what? An "individual"?
        
        I didn't forget. My point was that, whatever else they did, they avoided direct conflict with the Borg.
        
        Quote:
        Except that Lore is in control of them, which is a major issue.
        
        Right. This makes them, in the mind of many audience members, a separate group. Their defeat doesn't weaken the mental impression of the Borg as much as the defeat of the collective does, which was my point.
        
        Quote:
        "Much" of the crew isn't lost. And that ship is certainly not "half way" assimilated. The decks around Engineering are assimilated. If the Galaxy Class held 1000+, what was the crew complement on the supposedly larger Sovereign class?
        
        Unnamed crewman: "They've overridden each of our defense checkpoints. They've taken over decks 5 and 6." -- Star Trek: First Contact
        
        Engineering is on deck 16, if memory serves. Did they skip the decks in-between?
        
        Quote:
        The VERY FIRST first encounter of the ship with a Borg CUBE is when? "Scorpion I & II". And what do they find when they first reach that area of space? Do you know? Do you even know what episode I'm talking about? Do you even know any of the plot for it? Obviously not. LOL
        
        I would thank you not to assume that I don't know these episodes -- I've seen most of them many times. However, you may need to re-watch "The VERY FIRST first encounter of the ship with a Borg CUBE", which was "Unity", not "Scorpion".
        
        Quote:
        Quote:
        Where damage is done, it is rarely to Voyager herself.
        
        Again, people who have amnesia. LOL What was happening that caused 7 of 9 to eventually become part of the VOY crew? Do you know?
        
        The losses they did encounter were at the hands of 8472, not the Borg. They may have lost one or two crewmen when the Borg turned against them, but if so this was still nothing compared to any of the Enterprise's three encounters. If you have specific evidence otherwise, please name it instead of trying to vaguely insult me, which only demeans us both.
        
        Quote:
        Quote:
        Janeway may have been assimilated, but she let it happen intentionally. As the show went on the Borg seemed easier and easier to defeat, and far less impressive as an enemy.
        
        Out of 4, direct Borg-encounter episodes? Are you kidding me? More and more amnesia. I wish people would quit "guessing" and either go out and rent the thing or BitTorrent it or whatever.
        
        I'm sorry, but you don't really make an obvious point in this paragraph. You claimed I have "amnesia" and am "guessing" and need to watch the episode, but you haven't really stated why.
        
        Quote:
        What you have just described, is akin to me saying "Well you know, all Sisko did all day was toss his baseball around his office, carry on a gay relationship with Jadzia because he was in love with Curzon the slug, all while he occassionally passed out from experiencing the psychotic visions of a meglomanic, and in ignorance of the fact that his crew spent all day in Quark's holosuites fantasizing about the Alamo.
        
        Stating that repeated usage of the Borg has weakened them as enemies is like saying that????
        
        Quote:
        Now if I started a thread saying just that, can you imagine the response I would get around here?
        
        That's what you all sound like.
        
        I would appreciate it if you didn't attribute the comments of other threads to myself. I disagree with many of the points made by people who didn't like Voyager's use of the Borg.
        
        Quote:
        They are listed above.
        
        Thank you. ;-)
        
        Upon review, I would include the following as Voyager/Borg conflicts:
        
        "Unity" (previously-assimilated, now "independent" Borg)
        "Drone" (29th century Borg created by transporter accident)
        "Dark Frontier I & II" (Contact with the Borg Queen)
        "Scorpion I & II" (Contact with Species 8472 and Borg Space)
        "Unimatrix 0 I & II" (Contact with the Borg Queen)
        "Endgame I & II" (Contact with the Borg Queen)
        
        I include "Unity" due to the space encounter with the Borg cube, not due to the Borg cooperative. This makes for 6 major encounters.
        
        Quote:
        Quote:
        After all, it is not difficult to believe that they survived their horrible encounter with the Borg in "Blood Fever". ;-)
        
        You have to ask Vorik and B'Elanna about that. They might disagree. ;-)
        
        LOL! BTW, isn't it a shame they didn't use Vorik more often? He was a great recurring character.
        
        Quote:
        Again - watch the episodes and THEN argue. But I know you won't. ;-)
        
        Too late. I've watched them many times, and have many of them on video. If you make any specific points about these episodes, I might go back to confirm them, but so far you haven't really. You, however, may want to re-watch Star Trek: First Contact and "Unity", since you have overlooked or ignored aspects of both...
        
        --------
        
        "You know what six movies average out to be really good? The first six Star Trek movies!" -- Fry, Futurama
        
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        RE: You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:31:25 on Jan 05, 2004 | (1)
        
        Quote:
        
        This repeated "de-fanging" is where the problem lies... How many times can the intrepid crews of the Enterprise and Voyager beat the Borg before it seems rather silly for the audience to think them practically invulnerable. Sadly, Voyager was at a disadvantage here... The Voyager defeats of the Borg would not have seemed so bad if they were not being added to the previous TNG defeats.
        
        Except that there was no "defeat" of the Borg in "Scorpion I & II" by VOY. The "defeat" came at the hands of Species 8472 not Janeway. So that should get taken off of the barometer for "easy defeats".
        
        In "Dark Frontier I & II" (the ep that won a Special Effects Emmy), the crew decides to go on the offensive to salvage parts like a transwarp coil from Species 8472-damaged Cubes. They plan for it, practice it, do it, but then 7 ends up wanting to go back to the Collective. They eventually get her back and escape (in a manner not too dissimilar to how Riker and Data get Picard out of a Cube - transporter). A "defeat" or a retreat?
        
        In "Unimatrix 0 I & II", the Borg are supposedly "defeated" from within. And this was again, not the cause of Janeway or the crew but of their own supposed "genetic defect".
        
        And in "Endgame I & II", the Borg are maybe "defeated" using future technology - But actually, their conduits are destroyed.
        
        This is in sharp contrast to modified 22nd century phase pistols taking out a Borg or the impression in other posts that 1 ship took on a Borg Cube in a one-on-one slug 'em out battle and somehow won. :\
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:I don't recall any Klingon ships mentioned.
        
        This was mentioned in "The Drumhead".
        
        The Picard ep with the shakedown of the crew and a part-Romulan/Klingon guy in their midst who was actually covering for his smuggling of Fed secrets to the Roms? That was actually one of TNG's dramatically intense eps BTW (at least for a TNG).
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:However I do recall that Star Fleet, under the directorship of Commader Shelby, embarked on a fierce rebuilding and research effort to suitably equip their newer ships (and retrofit their older ships) in order to stave off a Borg attack. And consider that USS Voyager had NOT been built yet at this time.
        
        Somehow I doubt it was more prepared than the many newer ships in First Contact, which were falling one by one against a single cube. The implication of the film is that none would have survived without Picard's intervention.
        
        This Intrepid class ship had new, never-before-used tech like those bioneural gel paks. And note too that by the time the ship reaches Borg space, it isn't the same ship that entered the Delta Quadrant. On their way to and beyond the Necrit Expanse, they picked up alot of alien tech and enhanced the ship.
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:You forgot something. Like... um... Re-introducing Hugh back into the Collective? As a what? An "individual"?
        
        I didn't forget. My point was that, whatever else they did, they avoided direct conflict with the Borg.
        
        My point was arguing your point that they "defeated" the Borg in "silly" ways and you don't think that introducing Hugh wasn't "silly"? Particularly when it was done to cause "confusion"?
        
        One of the most controversial things to happen in VOY was "Scorpion I & II" where not only was a more lethal enemy created but a "pact" was made to allow the ship to avoid Species 8472 and attempt to keep out of the way of the Borg in return. And this "pact" has caused many fans alot of consternation. And it seems from that point on, there is quite a divergence of opinion with respect to many things about VOY.
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:Except that Lore is in control of them, which is a major issue.
        
        Right. This makes them, in the mind of many audience members, a separate group. Their defeat doesn't weaken the mental impression of the Borg as much as the defeat of the collective does, which was my point.
        
        Are you kidding? The fact that VOY has shown in 2 of those eps many of these "separate" groups eventually are re-assimilated and that in a number of instances, these "individuals" don't stay "individual" for very long and end up finding some way to go back to the Collective. So based on that behavior, the same should hold true for Lore's Borg.
        
        And in a separate debate that I had been in, I conclude that these "individuals", starting from the point of Locutus-as-individual-within-the-collective (based on the comments from Picard noting that he remembered everything he did, felt terrible guilt, but could do nothing to stop the maddness), the Borg have changed strategies to incorporate "limited" individuality. And this suggests that from the time of Locutus, through Hugh, and beyond, other drones who may have been separated to become "individuals", were apparently reassimilated, thus causing a major shift. And again, if you look at the crux of the Borg eps after FC (and even in FC when Picard recalls that the Queen wanted a "counterpart"), the theme is "individualism". Again, something introduced in TNG.
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:"Much" of the crew isn't lost. And that ship is certainly not "half way" assimilated. The decks around Engineering are assimilated. If the Galaxy Class held 1000+, what was the crew complement on the supposedly larger Sovereign class?
        
        Unnamed crewman: "They've overridden each of our defense checkpoints. They've taken over decks 5 and 6." -- Star Trek: First Contact
        
        Engineering is on deck 16, if memory serves. Did they skip the decks in-between?
        
        LOL There are how many decks on a Sovereign class ship? Depending on who you believe in either FC or NEM, 24 or 25 or even 29. And how long is she? The pattern of assimilation in FC was that they concentrated on the Engineering portions and the Deflector control so they could rig a communications array, and were attempting to head for the Bridge. However if as much of this ship had been assimilated as you claim, then there would have been no way that they could have taken off back into their own time so quickly after Cochran made first contact with the Vulcans.
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:The VERY FIRST first encounter of the ship with a Borg CUBE is when? "Scorpion I & II". And what do they find when they first reach that area of space? Do you know? Do you even know what episode I'm talking about? Do you even know any of the plot for it? Obviously not. LOL
        
        I would thank you not to assume that I don't know these episodes -- I've seen most of them many times. However, you may need to re-watch "The VERY FIRST first encounter of the ship with a Borg CUBE", which was "Unity", not "Scorpion".
        
        The Cube that is found in "Unity" is NOT part of the Collective. The Cubes in "Scorpion I & II" ARE. And the whole argument here has been that this crew had been "defeating" Borg Cubes and I have been pointing out where they have NOT.
        
        Quote:
        
        The losses they did encounter were at the hands of 8472, not the Borg. They may have lost one or two crewmen when the Borg turned against them, but if so this was still nothing compared to any of the Enterprise's three encounters. If you have specific evidence otherwise, please name it instead of trying to vaguely insult me, which only demeans us both.
        
        No this stuff that has been put out here is insulting because there are all these generic comments about VOY and Borg which are just over the top. I have listed the eps where encounters have occured. And the context of these encounters have NOT been the same as the context of the encounters in the TNG series and FC. In both TNG instances where ships confront the Borg (BoBW and FC), a single Borg Cube was assigned a mission to head towards Sector 001 and assimilate Earth. And in both instances, ships attempted to halt that mission. Yet in VOY, the encounters have been because the ship was in the same vicinity as the Borg (in "their" space) and the Borg they have encountered were either running from someone ("Scorpion I & II"), or were coming back to claim wreckage thanks to 8472 that the crew were trying to salvage ("Dark Frontier I & II") or were engaged in self-preservation and "cleansing" ("Unimatrix 0 I & II"). In the only case that might mirror what happened in BoBW or FC - "Endgame I & II", we discover that the Borg have constructed 6 "transwarp hubs" around the galaxy, one of which leads to the Alpha Quadrant and using that could give them a quick path to Earth (and obviously a confrontation with Borg who might also eventually head to Earth). And in that case, we all know what happened there with the "future" technology that was used to escape.
        
        So you can't compare the instances here with those in TNG because as we have seen in TNG, if the Borg don't consider you a threat, they do what? Ignore you. And it has been shown time and time again that there is some threshold level that must be triggered in order for them to shift from whatever it is they are doing to suddenly assimilating you (or your ship).
        
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        Quote:Quote:
        Janeway may have been assimilated, but she let it happen intentionally. As the show went on the Borg seemed easier and easier to defeat, and far less impressive as an enemy.
        
        Out of 4, direct Borg-encounter episodes? Are you kidding me? More and more amnesia. I wish people would quit "guessing" and either go out and rent the thing or BitTorrent it or whatever.
        
        I'm sorry, but you don't really make an obvious point in this paragraph. You claimed I have "amnesia" and am "guessing" and need to watch the episode, but you haven't really stated why.
        
        If you go back and re-read examples that supposedly justify your generalizations. THAT is what I'm talking about. You say:
        
        As the show went on the Borg seemed easier and easier to defeat, and far less impressive as an enemy.
        
        And I'm saying that the tactics used on VOY were the plot device of "individuality" that was first introduced in TNG. And so in "Dark Frontier I & II", you have a Borg Queen who wants 7 of 9 back because she has become what? "An individual". And in "Unimatrix 0 I & II", you have Borg who supposedly have some "genetic" defect that allows them to link together as "individuals" while regenerating, and thus they can "exist" in this telpathically generated world as their former, "individual" selves. And in this latter case, you have a Borg Queen find one of these "defects" out of a Cube of in one instance, 11,000 Drones, and she-as-the-Collective destroys that Cube. And she destroys another and another and another.
        
        How you and others have portrayed it is - "Bim bam boom! Here's some technobabble device that blows Borg away and off they go into the sunset". And I am saying that is not what has happened in these eps. And trust me, I am NOT a Braga fan if you have seen my post about his being a disgrace to women and Vulcans. But VOY's Borg eps are generally "opportunistic" adventures rather than strict "confrontational" ones.
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:What you have just described, is akin to me saying "Well you know, all Sisko did all day was toss his baseball around his office, carry on a gay relationship with Jadzia because he was in love with Curzon the slug, all while he occassionally passed out from experiencing the psychotic visions of a meglomanic, and in ignorance of the fact that his crew spent all day in Quark's holosuites fantasizing about the Alamo.
        
        Stating that repeated usage of the Borg has weakened them as enemies is like saying that????
        
        Well now didn't we just go through a numbers exercise about this? I think perhaps the problem here is the introduction of the 7 of 9 character that actually contributes to the (false) exaggeration of Borg presence/encounters. And in addition, it calls into question the point of having the ship placed in the Delta Quadrant knowing that the Borg originated there, rather than hurling them into say, the Gamma Quadrant (which perhaps should have occured). Note too that there were no Borg eps in DS9 save for the premier where we get to experience Wolf 359 from the perspective of Sisko's ship. So actually, there could have been more Borg introductions but there weren't.
        
        And it's not just that. My comment is more for the general reading audience here and was origininally a debate between myself and another poster (Brent) who you chose to jump in and defend where he stated:
        
        Well, when I said the Enterprise will destory the Xindi, I didn't mean in a bloodbath - that would be very silly and unrealistic (aka: Voyager vs. the Borg).
        
        -Well, I didn't literally mean that to refer to the bloodbath, just the unrealistic "one ship against an empire and surviving" timeline of the later Voyager seasons.
        
        Oh I have no problem with Species 8472, or that they helped Voyager along the way, but Voyager also did (in my opinion) a little too much zany surviving against the Borg.
        
        What he wrote is a very common sentiment around here (and he put it nicely, others haven't). The suggestion being that just because Wolf 359 happened in BoBW, there is no way a single ship could survive. And I say that the eps that have been written haven't put the crew in the same position as that of the 1701-D and those encounters in TNG. And I have also argued that the Borg were "defanged" back in TNG, NOT VOY. To the point where I was surprised to even see them show up after "Descent I & II" and FC, recharged and ready to go.
        
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        Quote:Now if I started a thread saying just that, can you imagine the response I would get around here?
        
        That's what you all sound like.
        
        I would appreciate it if you didn't attribute the comments of other threads to myself. I disagree with many of the points made by people who didn't like Voyager's use of the Borg.
        
        Yet you jumped in the middle of my debate with Brent and so you got included as well. ;-)
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:They are listed above.
        
        Thank you. ;-)
        
        Upon review, I would include the following as Voyager/Borg conflicts:
        
        "Unity" (previously-assimilated, now "independent" Borg)
        "Drone" (29th century Borg created by transporter accident)
        "Dark Frontier I & II" (Contact with the Borg Queen)
        "Scorpion I & II" (Contact with Species 8472 and Borg Space)
        "Unimatrix 0 I & II" (Contact with the Borg Queen)
        "Endgame I & II" (Contact with the Borg Queen)
        
        I include "Unity" due to the space encounter with the Borg cube, not due to the Borg cooperative. This makes for 6 major encounters.
        
        And so then based on your numbers, that is 10/115 =~9% of post-contact eps or 10/172 = 6% of total.
        
        But essentially, out of the body of the work that is VOY, the encounters with Borg were few and far between - generally 1 or 2 times per season. And considering the setting puts them in Borg space, it could have been more but it wasn't.
        
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        Quote:Quote:
        After all, it is not difficult to believe that they survived their horrible encounter with the Borg in "Blood Fever". ;-)
        
        You have to ask Vorik and B'Elanna about that. They might disagree. ;-)
        
        LOL! BTW, isn't it a shame they didn't use Vorik more often? He was a great recurring character.
        
        He was in a bunch - 7 I believe - "Blood Fever" having the most dialog. Jeri Taylor's son. LOL
        
        Quote:
        
        Quote:Again - watch the episodes and THEN argue. But I know you won't. ;-)
        
        Too late. I've watched them many times, and have many of them on video.
        
        Yet your comments bely this.
        
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        If you make any specific points about these episodes, I might go back to confirm them, but so far you haven't really.
        
        My POINTS were to retort against the generalizations that have been posted on this board in a number of threads including this one, regarding VOY and Borg. And they were directed at ONE person and YOU interceded. ;-)
        
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        You, however, may want to re-watch Star Trek: First Contact and "Unity", since you have overlooked or ignored aspects of both...
        
        I have considered FC the best of the TNG films and have watched as of this past weekend in fact, for participation in a discussion with spacebelga regarding the scene where Data first encounters the Borg Queen in Engineering and how "sci fi" that scene was IMHO, in a very very different way (with the lighting, cinematography, makeup, music, etc). And "Unity" I have watched in reference to describing how Chakotay has been "healed" by previously assimilated Borg for the "other" Borg threads here. And my POINT, which you have apparently confirmed, is that VOY did NOT spend an inordinate amount of time on the Borg nor were all these encounters "silly", which is the pre-occupation of other posters when the subject comes up.
        
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        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:21:38 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        Quote:
        My POINTS were to retort against the generalizations that have been posted on this board in a number of threads including this one, regarding VOY and Borg. And they were directed at ONE person and YOU interceded. ;-)
        
        Sorry, didn't mean to derail the conversation between you two -- I only wanted to chime in with a point, much as Steve would later at the same point in the thread. Actually, I'm a little disappointed that Brent never came back to offer any more insights... As I indicated on my initial post, I had hoped he would clarify his own position on the matter. As a Niner, I do appreciate non-linear conversations. ;-)
        
        So, just to wrap this up, this will be my final post on this particular thread. I feel my main points have become rather muddled and misinterpreted, so I just wanted to go back and clarify them:
        
        MAIN POINT: A notable percentage of Voyager episodes featured non-crewman Borg in a significant role. (9% of the episodes occuring after "Blood Fever" [plus "Blood Fever" itself]). Too much? Maybe, maybe not. But as I stated in my first post: "Still, it felt like a bit much sometimes, at least to me."
        
        SECONDARY POINT: This recurrence has contributed to the feeling that the Borg seem less threatening. I have not been saying that the Borg were repeatedly blown up, massively defeated, etc. by Voyager. I was saying that Voyager had suffered surprisingly few casualties or damage considering how dangerous the Borg are supposed to be, which contributes to a negative impression of the Borg, justified or not. (Enterprise didn't help with this. "Descent" didn't either, but I think First Contact repaired some of the damage made there.) Again, as I stated initially: "As the show went on the Borg seemed easier and easier to defeat, and far less impressive as an enemy." (I probably should have said "overcome" instead of "defeat", though. Poor wording on my part.) Impressions are the key here. If the Borg feel weak to the fans, then they become less effective as villains.
        
        Okay, one last quote...
        
        Quote:
        This was mentioned in "The Drumhead".
        
        The Picard ep with the shakedown of the crew and a part-Romulan/Klingon guy in their midst who was actually covering for his smuggling of Fed secrets to the Roms? That was actually one of TNG's dramatically intense eps BTW (at least for a TNG).
        
        I believe it was Admiral Satie who made the comment that Klingon ships had been involved in the battle of Wolf 359 earlier that year. My memory is a little rusty on this episode, so I may be thinking of the casualty reports (which were definitely mentioned there). A little quick Googling found a Klingon-related quote from Admiral Hanson in "Best of Both Worlds", so I would have to back and double-check "The Drumhead" to be certain that Satie mentioned it as well. Unfortunately, I don't believe I have this particular ep on either VHS or DVD. Anyone else know for sure on this one? If it was only mentioned in "Best of Both Worlds", I apologize for the mixed reference, but the basic information is still correct.
        
        TTFN!
        
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        "You know what six movies average out to be really good? The first six Star Trek movies!" -- Fry, Futurama
        
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        RE: You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:06:57 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        I do have "The Drumhead" on tape and I could check it out (haven't watched it for awhile). It might be interesting to check out DS9 "Emissary I & II" as well since the beginning is a flashback and POV of Wolf 359 from Sisko's ship, and some of that battle is actually shown. I know that up until DS9's premier and prior to the later Dominion War, I had always commented that Wolf 359 was the greatest Federation battle never shown. LOL
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:20:02 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        [i] However it has mistaken "prequel" and "no Federation" to for some reason equal a "ruless Star Fleet" meaning that this organization is functioning on vapor. Even though we know that traditional militaries and/or space organizations in the here and now have certain "rules", "Standards of Procedure", and "Protocols". Yet we have seen no evidence of this from this time frame's Star Fleet. And thus the throwing of someone in an airlock while the Battalion Chief objects but looks on and no one cites any Code of Law regarding the treatment of prisoners (which should exist). And so ENT "Anomaly", although scoring in the "kick butt" category with young fans, makes the show and Star Fleet lose all credibility because it suggests that such behavior is sanctioned by higher authorities. And in this case, if it is, then that should be STATED. Which then adds a new layer of drama to the ep. And if it isn't, then that should ALSO be STATED. [/i]
        
        Which would hardly be the first time that the rules have gone out the window on star trek. And considering how often Kirk acted essentially on his own and made his own rules, it's not too shocking that in the middle of a massive crisis and cut off from Earth; Archer would do the same.
        
        In any case since Enterprise is earth's first real starship, it's also not too much of a stretch to assume that a lot of the rules simply don't exist yet because Starfleet up till now has mainly been testing ships and trailing after the Vulcans without actually doing anything on their own.
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:55:14 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        However it has mistaken "prequel" and "no Federation" to for some reason equal a "ruless Star Fleet" meaning that this organization is functioning on vapor. Even though we know that traditional militaries and/or space organizations in the here and now have certain "rules", "Standards of Procedure", and "Protocols". Yet we have seen no evidence of this from this time frame's Star Fleet. And thus the throwing of someone in an airlock while the Battalion Chief objects but looks on and no one cites any Code of Law regarding the treatment of prisoners (which should exist). And so ENT "Anomaly", although scoring in the "kick butt" category with young fans, makes the show and Star Fleet lose all credibility because it suggests that such behavior is sanctioned by higher authorities. And in this case, if it is, then that should be STATED. Which then adds a new layer of drama to the ep. And if it isn't, then that should ALSO be STATED.
        
        Which would hardly be the first time that the rules have gone out the window on star trek. And considering how often Kirk acted essentially on his own and made his own rules, it's not too shocking that in the middle of a massive crisis and cut off from Earth; Archer would do the same.
        
        However when it came to Kirk, the audience KNEW the rules. Do you know how? Spock. Spock spent a significant amount of time quoting rules and regulations (in true Vulcan style)... to the point where in TWoK when Saavik starts quoting and Kirk objects, he eventually takes it back realizing her doing that kept him on his toes. And since at the beginning of TWoK, we watched as Spock quoted the rules to trainee Saavik and Sulu alerted the trainee as well with respect to her decision to violate the Neutral Zone treaty, you see how she was reinforced to do so. But in TUC, Spock eventually chastises Valeris for quoting (considering who she was quoting to) - but she WAS quoting.
        
        So again, because of this "aside character" (Spock), we were let in on the rules and THEN we could use that as a baseline for Kirk's actions - whether he obeyed them to the Nth degree such as in "Balance of Terror" (where he REFUSED to cross over into the Neutral Zone and read his crew the riot act over the shipwide intercomm with respect to the fact that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should the crew act in any manner to jeopardize the treaties and start an interstellar conflict) -- and did the complete opposite in "The Enterprise Incident", where he did everything (by direct order from his superiors) to violate that which he told his crew not to do earlier - to the point that since what he was doing was top secret, the crew was ready to near-mutiny, with McCoy and Spock ready to declare him unfit for duty.
        
        Yet we, the audience, KNEW that 2nd time around, that what Kirk was doing was "technically" illegal. And the story was crafted (thanks to D.C. Fontana) in the manner which you would assume that maybe something really WAS wrong with Kirk for acting erratically like that. But that was because we KNEW the rules and our characters REPEATED them. So then that establishes that Kirk was appearing to VIOLATE the rules (whereas we learn later, why).
        
        So when Reed happened upon his boss scowling at the prisoner in the airlock and he noticed that the pressure was steadily dropping and he objected, he should have blurted out some Earth-established or Star Fleet established RULE that forbid Archer from doing what he was doing.
        
        When Archer insisted that Sim be sacrificed, SOMEONE on the Medical staff should have again, read out some rule and reg that deals with how to handle similar situations (even if they don't precisely fit to this situation) and then let the person decide to continue or follow the rules.
        
        Quote:
        
        In any case since Enterprise is earth's first real starship, it's also not too much of a stretch to assume that a lot of the rules simply don't exist yet because Starfleet up till now has mainly been testing ships and trailing after the Vulcans without actually doing anything on their own.
        
        Huh?????????? COME ON. What about OTHER Warp 1 ships. Or the Warp 2 ships and so forth???? This may be their first "Warp 5" ship, but certainly not their "first real ship".
        
        PLUS - There have been FREIGHTERS such as the Fortunate Son and the Horizon (where Travis was born) that should have operated under established "rules of the road" when within Earth orbit, etc. Knowing the "rules" is why those frontier freighters could break them.
        
        And how can you say they didn't do anything on their own? SOMEONE went to the moon, did they not? Someone blazed a path to the Vega Colony and Dralax, the dilithium mines where Travis' ship ran back and forth too. What about Mars (current news notwithstanding). Archer and Trip have ticked off places that Earth had been up until that point - eg., Utopia Planetia, where apparently the colony was built sometime before he was born (and in VOY "'37s", Kim states that Utopia Planetia had been colonized in 2104). Yet all we have heard was T'Pol reciting VULCAN protocols but no one has mentioned EARTH protocols.
        
        What is a court-martial offense in the 2150s? What crimes constitute throwing someone into the ship's brig? What is the chain of command for reporting? Where is the procedure for how to decide when to use the transporter?
        
        Someone like spit and polish REED should become annoying by quoting rules and regs on that bridge just as Spock did on Kirk's bridge. At least Reed was shown attempting to create a security procedure for preparing the ship for an attack. But unfortunately that whole development was lost up in the bizarreness of the situation created in ENT "Singularity".
        
        At one time, up until 2002, there existed the U.S. Space Command (a joint force with functions now carried out by STRATCOM). Extrapolating to the future, in TOS "Balance of Terror", Lt. Stiles tells us that members of his family (a "Captain Stiles", 2 "Commanders", and "several Junior Officers") had all been a part of the "Space Services" and were lost in the Romulan War. The fact that in ENT "Broken Bow I & II", we were introduced to "Star Fleet" was interesting but introduces problems. Problems such that we know that in 2161, the United Federation of Planets is created and "Star Fleet" is made its defensive arm AND an Academy is created to go with that. Yet here it is, some 10 years (based on the timeframe of "Broken Bow") from that point and we have a "Star Fleet". But we know that many of the rules and regs of the 23rd/24th century "Star Fleet" include such things as "General Order One" which is better known as the "Prime Directive". The fact that this rule is #1 suggests that these things were put in place upon the establishment OF "Star Fleet".
        
        Yet since this name is now in place and if we want to have ENT's "Star Fleet" make any sense whatsoever, there needs to be rules and regulations that were developed by EARTH, and perhaps supplemented by others (in consultation with Vulcans and other species that the people of Earth have encountered SINCE first contract with Vulcans). Some 90 years have passed since that time, and if you even give Earth say, the 30 years it took to get that Warp 5 engine going, there HAD TO BE something established for what to do and what not to do while in space. This has nothing to do with the "Prime Directive", but it could have something to do with handling "first contact" situations - because you have FREIGHTERS out there who have encountered Nausicans and people from Vega and Dralax (you know, where the women have "3"?). Up until recently, the U.S. had procedures (which were sortof laughed at) for dealing with Extraterrestrials. And right after first contact with the Vulcans, whatever Earth gov't eventually formed later, should have had some protocols for dealing with aliens. Obviously these protocols wouldn't equal "non-interference" based on canon, but should include how to go about gathering data on these new species.
        
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        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:20:42 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Working with the current history of Starfleet in the current time frame as enstablished by Enterprise, as much of a freakish mutant it might be continuity wise...
        
        ...it's pretty clear that Enterprise is the first real Starfleet ship. Earlier ships never went too far from the home fires or outside Vulcan supervision. Enterprise is the first Starfleet ship going way out there and so a lot of the rules likely wouldn't be in place.
        
        We don't know how extensive of a structure, Starfleet, that is the pre-Federation version of Starfleet has. And any future refferences to the origins of Starfleet could very well refer to the Starfleet as it's inagurated as part of a multi-species service under the Federation. That's not too farfetched, since Starfleet may be the equivalent of Earth...something a lot of species call their fleet.
        
        In any case it's quite likely that Starfleet has a lot more officers and engineers than lawyers and that the lawyers haven't caught up with the situation yet. So far the only people out there were freighters who were beyond earth law anyway. Enterprise is the first ship which means it's likely to set the legal precedents.
        
        And even if those regs did exist on the treatment of prisoners, as far as Anomaly goes, it wouldn't have made any sense for Reed to quote regs to Archer. It's not as if Archer didn't know that what he was doing was not legal. This wasn't a complex situation where the application of the law was unclear. Both Reed and Archer knew the score and Reed wasn't a Vulcan and in any case tends to submit to authority and respect senior officers.
        
        As far as Sim goes. When the Doctor is an alien, you can't really expect him to know and quote starfleet protocols. And he doesn't seem to have much in the way of a medical staff.
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:21:37 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Working with the current history of Starfleet in the current time frame as enstablished by Enterprise, as much of a freakish mutant it might be continuity wise...
        
        ...it's pretty clear that Enterprise is the first real Starfleet ship. Earlier ships never went too far from the home fires or outside Vulcan supervision. Enterprise is the first Starfleet ship going way out there and so a lot of the rules likely wouldn't be in place.
        
        ??? What is the difference between a "starship" and a "freighter" other than in this show's context... ummmm... one has a "governmentally-run" organizational structure and one has "commercially-run" or perhaps family-owned structure. And one might have a bigger engine than the other... But a ship is a ship is a ship IMHO. In ENT "Broken Bow I & II", Travis tells Tucker that it took them 3 years to do the Dralax to Vega run. We know from Travis' comments that those ships could go to a max of like Warp 1.8. The fact that they were out there at all means that some commercialization in space has taken place and that contracts and treaties between alien worlds and Earth are in existance. Along with the fact that what they were mostly hauling - dilithium, was critical to Earth. And thus although they may have let those freighters swing out there somewhat, their cargo was quite valuable. Particularly since Earth obviously has no source of dilithium nearby. And we all know what dilithium is being used for. ;-)
        
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        We don't know how extensive of a structure, Starfleet, that is the pre-Federation version of Starfleet has.
        
        And why not? Wouldn't it serve this show well to begin to define that NOW so that we can show how it morphs into what we know exists in the 23rd century?
        
        Quote:
        
        And any future refferences to the origins of Starfleet could very well refer to the Starfleet as it's inagurated as part of a multi-species service under the Federation. That's not too farfetched, since Starfleet may be the equivalent of Earth...something a lot of species call their fleet.
        
        So then this needs to be DEFINED. Right now, all we have is some building that happens to be sitting in San Francisco at the head of the Golden Gate Bridge (imagine that), where various and sundry Uniformed service personnel congregate. Who do they report to? There have been several eps, most notably "Broken Bow I & II" and "The Expanse" where Archer has insisted that this "Star Fleet" doesn't "report" to the Vulcan High Command. So SOMEONE is controlling this entity. As far as I can tell, if money were in use, the Vulcans would be contractors.
        
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        In any case it's quite likely that Starfleet has a lot more officers and engineers than lawyers and that the lawyers haven't caught up with the situation yet. So far the only people out there were freighters who were beyond earth law anyway. Enterprise is the first ship which means it's likely to set the legal precedents.
        
        LOL So then like, who colonized Mars and its colony Utopia Planetia? Certainly VOY "One Small Step" shows one of a number of missions to Mars pre-first contact with the Vulcans, ie., 2032.
        
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        And even if those regs did exist on the treatment of prisoners, as far as Anomaly goes, it wouldn't have made any sense for Reed to quote regs to Archer. It's not as if Archer didn't know that what he was doing was not legal.
        
        And so you lose the dramatic moment of conflict for an immoral act. And thus negate the "gritty" that so many here crave because it's only being done in terms of the "physical" (killing, maiming, torture, fist fights) or in the setting (dark sets, few lights, strobing lights, nighttime scenes on planets, dark-colored ships, dark-colored uniforms) rather than the verbal.
        
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        This wasn't a complex situation where the application of the law was unclear. Both Reed and Archer knew the score and Reed wasn't a Vulcan and in any case tends to submit to authority and respect senior officers.
        
        But Reed is a BY THE BOOK guy. He comes from a military family. He lives and breathes "military". As TRexx noted earlier, he takes Archer to task about how Archer has been running the ship in ENT "Minefield". Yet all of this is dropped and he's left behaving like a whiny baby (or as katefan might characterize him if he were here - a "whiny bitch") who doesn't like the MACOs on board telling him what to do.
        
        In ENT "Silent Enemy", Reed had it out with Trip and that was the first time in an ENT ep where I was like WHOA BABY! You see, when I start yelling at the screen, then obviously it has captured my attention. ;-) That interaction was quite dramatic and out of nowhere and it established some interesting character traits between those two - on the professional level. Just like ENT "Shuttlepod One" does later in its run, on the personal level.
        
        But all of that is now gone... Everyone has been assimilated into the Expanse by the Xindi. Resistance was futile. They have added their original personality traits and character behaviors as shown to us in the first 2 seasons, to some nebulous thing (as Kirk might call it) that has engulfed them all. And like Borg Drones, the plod through the stories in total agreement.
        
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        As far as Sim goes. When the Doctor is an alien, you can't really expect him to know and quote starfleet protocols.
        
        Phlox has Med Techs in there. Suprisingly, the Sickbay IS peopled by more than just a single Doctor. ;-) And since he is on board a Star Fleet vessel, he is subject to the SAME rules and regulations as everyone else. And of course, he ALSO has a handy dandy computer terminal right there in reach where these things should be STORED. In fact, IMHO, Phlox should have refused to do the procedure at all based on his established obsession with ethics... but I digress because I think that whole topic has been done quite a bit.
        
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        And he doesn't seem to have much in the way of a medical staff.
        
        He HAS a Medical staff and that is my point. And someone among them should have protested. SOMEONE, ANYONE (other than the subject himself) on that ship should have registered an objection based on some rule or ethics regulation. But sadly... :\
        
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        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:32:20 on Jan 06, 2004
        
        "??? What is the difference between a "starship" and a "freighter" other than in this show's context... ummmm... one has a "governmentally-run" organizational structure and one has "commercially-run" or perhaps family-owned structure. And one might have a bigger engine than the other... But a ship is a ship is a ship IMHO."
        
        The freighters were private ships with their own culture that operated outside the jurisdiction of any government. Up until Enterprise's launch they were essentially beyond the law.
        
        The fact that they were out there at all means that some commercialization in space has taken place and that contracts and treaties between alien worlds and Earth are in existance.
        
        We can only spculate but the freighters appeared to be private commercial enterprises operating outside of any treaty. They obviously fulfilled an important function but based on Enterprise, it appears that the Vulcans controlled all of humanity's contact with aliens and the freighters operated independently filling a need, but without any oversight.
        
        And why not? Wouldn't it serve this show well to begin to define that NOW so that we can show how it morphs into what we know exists in the 23rd century?
        
        I agree but we still don't know how extensive the structure is. For all we know there could be 5 admirals , two dozen captains most of whom don't even have ships and a lot of wannabes practicing at training facilities. Starfleet's entire staff could well be under 500 people.
        
        This is not implausible because the show has taken great pains to emphasize how little function Starfleet had before Archer the Great came along.
        
        So then this needs to be DEFINED. Right now, all we have is some building that happens to be sitting in San Francisco at the head of the Golden Gate Bridge (imagine that), where various and sundry Uniformed service personnel congregate. Who do they report to? There have been several eps, most notably "Broken Bow I & II" and "The Expanse" where Archer has insisted that this "Star Fleet" doesn't "report" to the Vulcan High Command. So SOMEONE is controlling this entity. As far as I can tell, if money were in use, the Vulcans would be contractors.
        
        One presumes that there's some sort of united earth government in place but it's all rather speculative and apparently there's still a british navy with subs out there which could imply some level of latent hostilties still existing between nation states which would mean any united earth government would be a shell game like today's UN...which would explain why Starfleet appears so impotent before the Vulcans.
        
        LOL So then like, who colonized Mars and its colony Utopia Planetia? Certainly VOY "One Small Step" shows one of a number of missions to Mars pre-first contact with the Vulcans, ie., 2032.
        
        Colonizing Mars wouldn't be too difficult even with only primitive warp drives. One Small Step's Mars mission, if I remember correctly, was American based. The astronauts seemed to be American and I think I recall US flag patches on their arms.
        
        And so you lose the dramatic moment of conflict for an immoral act. And thus negate the "gritty" that so many here crave because it's only being done in terms of the "physical" (killing, maiming, torture, fist fights) or in the setting (dark sets, few lights, strobing lights, nighttime scenes on planets, dark-colored ships, dark-colored uniforms) rather than the verbal.
        
        I'd argue that Anomaly was one of the third season episodes that had the gritty, primarily because like The Shipment and like DS9's Pale Moonlight, the tension came from the Captain struggling with the idea of doing something 'wrong' in the service of a higher goal.
        
        Now if Enterprise had stayed committed to that idea, this would be a different show. For instance imagine if Archer had shot Rajiin as she was being taken away to prevent her information from falling into Xindi hands, or even made the attempt to do so...
        
        But Reed is a BY THE BOOK guy. He comes from a military family. He lives and breathes "military". As TRexx noted earlier, he takes Archer to task about how Archer has been running the ship in ENT "Minefield". Yet all of this is dropped and he's left behaving like a whiny baby (or as katefan might characterize him if he were here - a "whiny bitch") who doesn't like the MACOs on board telling him what to do.
        
        He takes Archer to task only under pressure, normally he's the silent adjuntant who likes the military style and generally doesn't question his superiors. He resents the lack of military discipline but unless something drastic happens like in Minefield or Singularity, he isn't going to talk back to the Captain.
        
        The MACO's do represent a problem because they essentially duplicate his job, much as tasha yar and Worf duplicated too many of each other's functions. DS9 and Voyager avoided the problem by giving the 'Kick Butt' officers who will suggest violence as a first resort very different spheres of authority, but the MACO overlap Reed's job as much as possible. And since Enterprise has barely been using them, despite all the hype, I fail to see why they were even introduced.
        
        But all of that is now gone... Everyone has been assimilated into the Expanse by the Xindi. Resistance was futile. They have added their original personality traits and character behaviors as shown to us in the first 2 seasons, to some nebulous thing (as Kirk might call it) that has engulfed them all. And like Borg Drones, the plod through the stories in total agreement.
        
        Well that generally does take place after a certain period of friction, the characters settle into routines. I don't think Enterprise characters have been developed much in comparison to where DS9 and Voyager characters were at this point; but on the other hand let's face the fact that much of Enterprise's cast just isn't very interesting, aside from Phlox and perhaps Reed there isn't much room for growth.
        
        Radical character development is possible but TPTB is not likely to shake the boat and alter any of the characters too significantly aside from whoring T'Pol some more in the desperate hope of landing a few thousand more young adult males a night.
        
        He HAS a Medical staff and that is my point. And someone among them should have protested. SOMEONE, ANYONE (other than the subject himself) on that ship should have registered an objection based on some rule or ethics regulation. But sadly... :\
        
        In the old starfleet tradition, Doctors were in certain spheres of the ship equal to the Captain and could even overule him...but that went out of the window post-TNG.
        
        Bashir and the EMH were both non-humans whose own rights were more likely to be challenged and were inexperienced and not remotely capable of standing up to their Captains.
        
        Phlox can stand up to Archer and has in the past but he operates based on his own byzantine reasoning and in any case with Voyager the tradition has become one of not weakening the captain's authority through crew challenges. Remember how the ending of Dear Doctor got rewirtten?
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:18:03 on Jan 07, 2004
        
        Quote:
        
        The freighters were private ships with their own culture that operated outside the jurisdiction of any government.
        
        Really? How do you know this? If this were really the case, then why did Forrest order Archer to take his ship and check out the Fortunate Son? And he did so because someone on that ship sent out a distress signal to SOMEONE (obviously on Earth). And since Archer was the supposedly "only" one out there, he went to assist. And this is irrespective of how these freighter Captains may feel - but obviously RELATES to something that is in Star Fleet PROTOCOL. Otherwise, why divert your supposed only space resource to this so-called independent? ;-)
        
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        Up until Enterprise's launch they were essentially beyond the law.
        
        But again, how do you know this? Is this society run by anarchists? Serioiusly. Right today, there are a group of people in the U.S. who believe in a formal version of anarchy. Essentially no "government-issued" law, but use of either "Natural Law" or some similar doctrine. Ie., they are the extreme of the Libertarians in that no "higher body" should dictate what they do. So if such a philosophy were put into place in the U.S., this could mean this - say you have 5 jets in the sky that are waiting to land. There is no air-traffic controller because their presence would pre-suppose their being controlled by some gov't entity. Thus "rules of the road" would need to appy and whoever got to the runway first should land. However what if 2 planes got there at the same time? Then may the fastest pilot win! ;-)
        
        And so I ask again? WHAT is the current gov't (or lack thereof) or LAW of 22nd century Earth? Is everyone anarchists as you suggest the freighters are? Does this only apply to the freighters and not to say, space ferries to the moon?
        
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        And why not? Wouldn't it serve this show well to begin to define that NOW so that we can show how it morphs into what we know exists in the 23rd century?
        
        I agree but we still don't know how extensive the structure is. For all we know there could be 5 admirals , two dozen captains most of whom don't even have ships and a lot of wannabes practicing at training facilities. Starfleet's entire staff could well be under 500 people.
        
        And shouldn't we KNOW this? Then we could say - gosh, with so few people there, Archer is REALLY REALLY on his own. But if this facility were peopled with thousands, then that's a different story...
        
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        This is not implausible because the show has taken great pains to emphasize how little function Starfleet had before Archer the Great came along.
        
        They had SOME function. It seems that the gist of their LACK of function was technology-based (or lack thereof), NOT "morals" based or "law based".
        
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        One presumes that there's some sort of united earth government in place
        
        But that's just it! CAN we ASSUME THIS? Should we? When Florida had a crater kilomters wide and deep created down its center, would others come to help?
        
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        but it's all rather speculative and apparently there's still a british navy with subs out there which could imply some level of latent hostilties still existing between nation states which would mean any united earth government would be a shell game like today's UN...which would explain why Starfleet appears so impotent before the Vulcans.
        
        But then what happens in eps is that our characters tick off how "poverty" and "prejudice" and "hunger" and this and that have been "eliminated", but that still doesn't tell us how they are structured.
        
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        Colonizing Mars wouldn't be too difficult even with only primitive warp drives. One Small Step's Mars mission, if I remember correctly, was American based. The astronauts seemed to be American and I think I recall US flag patches on their arms.
        
        I'd have to check although I thought they might still have been NASA. But that ship had an ion drive.
        
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        I'd argue that Anomaly was one of the third season episodes that had the gritty, primarily because like The Shipment and like DS9's Pale Moonlight, the tension came from the Captain struggling with the idea of doing something 'wrong' in the service of a higher goal.
        
        But where was it shown that he "struggled"? Even the look on his face indicated that he was determined, after the deed was done and some time later and then 10 eps later. There was no change. No regrets. No grief. No reflection. Nothing. Blank. Reset. Wash, rinse, repeat. ;-)
        
        IMAGINE the "struggle" if Reed had really gone off on him or Tucker or even T'Pol... To the point where suddenly in the middle of the night weeks later, he wakes up with nightmares of what he had just done. THAT is "struggle".
        
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        Now if Enterprise had stayed committed to that idea, this would be a different show. For instance imagine if Archer had shot Rajiin as she was being taken away to prevent her information from falling into Xindi hands, or even made the attempt to do so...
        
        But again - CONFLICT is not just looking mean and acting mean, it is either the mean guy actually DEBATING with himself (like the little angels and little devils on the character's shoulders from old... ;-) or someone as an "aside character" commenting on this behavior, or someone directly attacking this behavior.
        
        In essence, what this Xindi arc has become is IDENTICAL but OPPOSITE of EVERYTHING some people have complained that TNG was in many cases - everyone acting goody goody. Yet here, it's the same thing but opposite - everyone acting baddy baddy. And so in both cases, there's no variety. Everyone is like a Borg drone. WE are the Borg. One mind. And thus no CONFLICT.
        
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        But Reed is a BY THE BOOK guy. He comes from a military family. He lives and breathes "military". As TRexx noted earlier, he takes Archer to task about how Archer has been running the ship in ENT "Minefield". Yet all of this is dropped and he's left behaving like a whiny baby (or as katefan might characterize him if he were here - a "whiny bitch") who doesn't like the MACOs on board telling him what to do.
        
        He takes Archer to task only under pressure, normally he's the silent adjuntant who likes the military style and generally doesn't question his superiors.
        
        He wasn't under pressure in "Singularity". Nor was he under pressure when he brought his "homework" to breakfast with the Captain at the beginning of "Minefield".
        
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        He resents the lack of military discipline but unless something drastic happens like in Minefield or Singularity, he isn't going to talk back to the Captain.
        
        Ummm... didn't he do just that in "The Shipment"? And in "Silent Enemy", I recall him and Tucker doing quite a job on Archer and actually VIOLATING Archer's orders to go on and build the phase canons when Archer said told them to let the boys at Jupiter Station do it. ;-)
        
        Didn't Reed and Archer have a bit of a tiff over who had more Eagle Scout badges in "Rogue Planet" when Archer arrogantly tells his Security Chief - "Let me play Captain for awhile" or some such comment? When Reed was only trying to do his job, but eventually Reed "wins" based on his having 28 badges and Archer only have 26? ;-)
        
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        The MACO's do represent a problem because they essentially duplicate his job, much as tasha yar and Worf duplicated too many of each other's functions. DS9 and Voyager avoided the problem by giving the 'Kick Butt' officers who will suggest violence as a first resort very different spheres of authority, but the MACO overlap Reed's job as much as possible. And since Enterprise has barely been using them, despite all the hype, I fail to see why they were even introduced.
        
        LOL. I've been saying that to myself since after they pretty much disappeared after "The Expanse".
        
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        But all of that is now gone... Everyone has been assimilated into the Expanse by the Xindi. Resistance was futile. They have added their original personality traits and character behaviors as shown to us in the first 2 seasons, to some nebulous thing (as Kirk might call it) that has engulfed them all. And like Borg Drones, the plod through the stories in total agreement.
        
        Well that generally does take place after a certain period of friction, the characters settle into routines. I don't think Enterprise characters have been developed much in comparison to where DS9 and Voyager characters were at this point; but on the other hand let's face the fact that much of Enterprise's cast just isn't very interesting, aside from Phlox and perhaps Reed there isn't much room for growth.
        
        There is room for growth if they only could well... um... write? I think perhaps Sussman or Coto might help but we'll see.
        
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        Radical character development is possible but TPTB is not likely to shake the boat and alter any of the characters too significantly aside from whoring T'Pol some more in the desperate hope of landing a few thousand more young adult males a night.
        
        LOL And I don't think that will even help. So they'll focus on the exotic Hoshi and sex her up so more... ;-)
        
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        He HAS a Medical staff and that is my point. And someone among them should have protested. SOMEONE, ANYONE (other than the subject himself) on that ship should have registered an objection based on some rule or ethics regulation. But sadly... :\
        
        In the old starfleet tradition, Doctors were in certain spheres of the ship equal to the Captain and could even overule him...but that went out of the window post-TNG.
        
        But that doesn't negate the fact that you can have some character who appears "at odds" with whatever is going on in any given moment. That then shows contrast.
        
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        Bashir and the EMH were both non-humans whose own rights were more likely to be challenged and were inexperienced and not remotely capable of standing up to their Captains.
        
        Well the EMH has actually stood up for some things. Bashir? Well he seemed more internally focussed and sortof operated independent of Sisko. ;-)
        
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        Phlox can stand up to Archer and has in the past but he operates based on his own byzantine reasoning and in any case with Voyager the tradition has become one of not weakening the captain's authority through crew challenges. Remember how the ending of Dear Doctor got rewirtten?
        
        Yes - but at least that ep provided some sort of confrontation and dramatic moment. That was all but gone the way "Similitude" played out.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:57:23 on Jan 07, 2004
        
        Really? How do you know this? If this were really the case, then why did Forrest order Archer to take his ship and check out the Fortunate Son? And he did so because someone on that ship sent out a distress signal to SOMEONE (obviously on Earth). And since Archer was the supposedly "only" one out there, he went to assist. And this is irrespective of how these freighter Captains may feel - but obviously RELATES to something that is in Star Fleet PROTOCOL. Otherwise, why divert your supposed only space resource to this so-called independent? ;-)
        
        Starfleet is out there now, the crew was human and Starfleet is making a point of enstabilishing its presence. In any case with Terra Nova we've seen that Archer is prepeared to excercise his authority over humans who aren't under his authority or Earth's authority and who don't recognize either. In fact Enterprise has had no trouble interfering even in alien situations where no human interest was involved.
        
        But again, how do you know this? Is this society run by anarchists?
        
        I don't mean that they were beyond the law philosophically, but on practical terms. The law exists where it can be enforced. Where it can't be enforced, there is no law. It would make no sense for Starfleet to attempt to apply laws where they can't be enforced or applied.
        
        Serioiusly. Right today, there are a group of people in the U.S. who believe in a formal version of anarchy. Essentially no "government-issued" law, but use of either "Natural Law" or some similar doctrine. Ie., they are the extreme of the Libertarians in that no "higher body" should dictate what they do. So if such a philosophy were put into place in the U.S., this could mean this - say you have 5 jets in the sky that are waiting to land. There is no air-traffic controller because their presence would pre-suppose their being controlled by some gov't entity. Thus "rules of the road" would need to appy and whoever got to the runway first should land. However what if 2 planes got there at the same time? Then may the fastest pilot win! ;-)
        
        Well as far as libertarians go, they'd be opposed to any government authority and probably large jetliners too...but some form of cooperation would have to kick in at some point so we'd end up with some form of pre-determined traffic control rules which would decentralize the decision making process by finding consensual ways to determine landing priority. Of course anarchy and libertarians are both generally unworkable and refuse to recognize the importance of government as a unifying and cohesive force.
        
        And it's particularly ironic how many of the old survivalists 'russian nukes are going to wipe out everyone who doesn't have their cabin in idaho' were also libertarians. Heinlein who is a libertarian demigod helped kick off much of this craze with deranged 50's essays arguing that if even only the major population centers got hit, the result would be people killing each other over canned goods. His paragraph on 'thirst crazed angelinos turning to cannibalism' is particularly memorable. It's ironic because for all their mistrust of government, libertarians so often have even less trust of the common man. Which makes their views all the more paradoxical.
        
        But at some point after writing this paragraph I realize I've drifted completely off the assigned topic...
        
        And so I ask again? WHAT is the current gov't (or lack thereof) or LAW of 22nd century Earth? Is everyone anarchists as you suggest the freighters are? Does this only apply to the freighters and not to say, space ferries to the moon?
        
        Only lunatics and bureaucrats make laws where they can't be enforced. But the 'frontier' where it's still wild and where laws don't apply keeps being pushed back all the time. That's what Firefly is about and that's what that Enterprise episode was about. Enterprise represents the end of an era for those independent freighters, something that's clear from the exchange between Archer and the world weary freighter Captain.
        
        The frontier will still exist though. By the 24th century it's been pushed back to the Maquis and the DMZ. In the 25th century, it might be the globular clusters outside the galaxy. But there's always a frontier just beyond the reach of the law. We don't have one now because we've stagnated though for a while the internet was the frontier.
        
        And shouldn't we KNOW this? Then we could say - gosh, with so few people there, Archer is REALLY REALLY on his own. But if this facility were peopled with thousands, then that's a different story...
        
        I agree that we should know this, but we don't. And that's up to Berman and Braga and not up to me. If it was up to me Enterprise wouldn't exist and the next series would have been set in the 25th century and been radically different. But until I can find a way to steal Berman's brain and fit him with that remote control thingy it isn't happening...
        
        But then what happens in eps is that our characters tick off how "poverty" and "prejudice" and "hunger" and this and that have been "eliminated", but that still doesn't tell us how they are structured.
        
        But to be fair TOS wasn't much on laying out structure either. We had general ideas about how things were run but the reality is that we really don't much anything about how the Federation is really run. For instance what's the seperation of powers between the Federation and local planets. Where does Federation authority end in regards to Federation members?
        
        We don't really know.
        
        In essence, what this Xindi arc has become is IDENTICAL but OPPOSITE of EVERYTHING some people have complained that TNG was in many cases - everyone acting goody goody. Yet here, it's the same thing but opposite - everyone acting baddy baddy. And so in both cases, there's no variety. Everyone is like a Borg drone. WE are the Borg. One mind. And thus no CONFLICT.
        
        It's not even as consistent as everyone acting baddy baddy. Instead in one episode Archer is a hard new ruthless man and in another he's back to his old good natured and wishy washy self. There's no real consistency. At least when Sisko or Janeway went dark, there was consistency.
        
        LOL And I don't think that will even help. So they'll focus on the exotic Hoshi and sex her up so more... ;-)
        
        It's pretty much inevitable. Considering how even Ds9 and Voyager went to some questionable lenghts...consider evil lesbian kira or Torres in Blood Fever, my guess is Enterprise will surprass them all.
        
        Well the EMH has actually stood up for some things. Bashir? Well he seemed more internally focussed and sortof operated independent of Sisko
        
        The EMH did at times make a point of standing up to Janeway but when she wanted to do something, as in Tuvix, she had no trouble overiding his objections. And when he did win, it was often in appeals for his humanity as in Triage and he won based on emotional appeals rather than a legal challenge to her authority based on his role as chief medical officer.
        
        Yes - but at least that ep provided some sort of confrontation and dramatic moment. That was all but gone the way "Similitude" played out.
        
        Except that in Dear Doctor instead of the episode ending with two characters maintaining two different views, one character's view was erased so they can all agree. Which diposes of all the drama.
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:27:01 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        I mentioned the word "bloodbath". You are not going to see ENT destroy or kill any of the Xindi. There might be some firing about nothing which will be huge. You will not see Trip kill any of the Xindi on a mass scale to avenge his sisters death. What will we see is Trip going wimping out at the end saying that it won't bring his sister back and T'pols slut sessions helped me get over his hate. You will see this arc end with some "well ok were sorry we won't attack you (kiss and make up)" or some sad "time/travel" story.
        
        If B&B write the final Xindi arc you are going to see fans get another major let down. With another lame story.
        
        By the way I noticed that Jadiza is everywhere I am on this site. I think you are in love with me.
        
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        Well obviously... | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:15:42 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        The 'good' Xindi races will be convinced by Archer that humans aren't their enemies, there will be some brief space battles and the 'bad' Xindi will be routed.
        
        Everyone will participate in some sort of mystical alien grieving ceremony, perhaps Vulcan, involving candles and chanting in a made up language. Trip will light a candle and then head back to T'Pol's quarters for a quickie.
        
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        RE: Well obviously... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:12:20 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Geez... Couldn't you have put a spoiler warning on that thing? Now you've ruined the ending for everyone! ;-)
        
        --------
        
        "You know what six movies average out to be really good? The first six Star Trek movies!" -- Fry, Futurama
        
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        RE: Well obviously... | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:23:11 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        It may be a joke, but I've gotten things right before when it came to DS9, Voyager and particularly Andromeda...
        
        And I predicted in the first season that season 3 would see a major retooling of the show.
        
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        RE: Well obviously... | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:19:02 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Don't forget that they started out all pissed off wanting Xindi blood. So as they hold hands and sing "This land is your land"....we will be reminded that "Time heals all wounds".
        
        THEN..........we will see Trip nail the silicon right out of T'pol. I never thought Vuclans would have breast implants. A very vain society!
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:49:25 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        You're ma sweetie... hee hee
        
        (you leave me alone when I go on about VOY.. heh heh)
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:11:06 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        Well there is not much to talk about when it comes to VOY.
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:05:27 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        heh heh I know how you feel about it. ;-)
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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      - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Brent (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:59:57 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        Well, when I said the Enterprise will destory the Xindi, I didn't mean in a bloodbath - that would be very silly and unrealistic (aka: Voyager vs. the Borg). However, I would enjoy seeing them destory the Xindi as a result of destorying the Spheres, to try and destory the Expanse, to try and return home (in that typically irrational human way of plowing through anything in your path). To me, it would be much more interesting if they made a peaceful resolution with the Xindi and then wiped them out in a "whoops" type of way, to make humans a little more thoughtful of their effects on other race's life, thus beginning a need for the Prime Directive. I think this would be fun and promote continuity while giving people (both viewers and characters) something to think about in the end. Of course, very seldom do things work out exactly as you want them to, so I agree that this will probably not happen! :) I also agree that Berman and Braga should be kept far away from writing, but I think as Producers they're o.k.. I agree that they could do better, but I think they could do a lot worse as well! Thanks for your feedback!
        
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  - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
    By: Blok_Narpin (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:47:14 on Jan 04, 2004
    
    This show has never violated established Trek continuity, so stop complaining they have. And please don't hit me with that stupid "they have viewscreens" argument because it holds no weight. Don't mention the Ferengi. Archer never learned thier names. It's airtight. Don't mention the Borg. THAT continuity was ruined on the Voyager episode "Dark Frontier", so it anything Enterprise fixed a previous continuity breach.
    This show has had excellent continuity.
    
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    "New Jersey Girl, New Jersey Girl Come on and rock my world New Jersey Girl, New Jersey Girl I wanna love you New Jersey Girl, New Jersey Girl With your crazy f**ked up hair New Jersey Girl, New Jersey Girl Your wicked awesome!" -Nerf Herder
    
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    - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
      By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:31:30 on Jan 04, 2004
      
      Quote:" This show has never violated established Trek continuity"
      
      Are you kidding me? This show has broken continuity several times.
      
      Quote:" Don't mention the Ferengi. Archer never learned thier names." Don't mention the Borg. THAT continuity was ruined on the Voyager episode "Dark Frontier",
      
      Again are you joking? The Ferengi and the Borg, Risa etc had NO business being in ENT. Those episodes were stupid and pointless. The sphere in FC was clearly destroyed. If I were to even enterain the silly idea that there were pieces left. There is no way they could of survived reentry and over 100 years in the freezing cold. It was a stupid episode for brain dead fans who don't give a shit about continiuty and wanted to have the borg on ENT. He didn't get the name therefore it holds continuity??? Get off the crack pipe.
      
      There was a list posted by some of the people on this site that listed all the mistakes ENT has made. Most of which could of easily have been avoided if someone bothered to watching TOS. The ships overall technology doesn't fit in with TOS. The weapons are too advanced. We were told that the Romulan wars were fought with nuclear weapons. ENT doesn't care anything that "old" on board.
      
      We are talking about ENT not VOY. Lets face it the Borg episodes in VOY (Unimatrix Zero) were all shit.
      
      Quote:"This show has had excellent continuity"
      
      If you just had a lobotomy.
      
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      - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:00:14 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        What was wrong with Risa continuity-wise? All of the other ones you mentioned seemed valid (or at least reasonable) complaints, but you lost me a little on that one.
        
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        "You know what six movies average out to be really good? The first six Star Trek movies!" -- Fry, Futurama
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:33:57 on Jan 05, 2004 | (1)
        
        Quote:
        What was wrong with Risa continuity-wise? All of the other ones you mentioned seemed valid (or at least reasonable) complaints, but you lost me a little on that one.
        
        Risa was a planet mentioned and developed in the 24th century shows.
        
        QUESTION: WHY are so many things in ENT coming from 24th century mentions (Nausicans, Ferengi, Borg, Yridians, Risa,) and not the closer period - the 23rd century?
        
        ANSWER: Because the writers had nothing to do with the material developed in the 23rd century and so to them, this era never existed. And despite the fact that a very carefully prepared detailed and even humorous but informative Encyclopedia exists that will give them a list of all these different places, they won't reach over onto Okuda's desk to open it up. :\
        
        When Mike Sussman created a story that included Seti Alpha VI (mentioned in TOS "Space Seed" and TWoK) in ENT "Twilight", there was alot of buzz, and rightfully so. When Sussman made the nefarious alien merchant in ENT "Civilization" a Malurian (a species whose system is destroyed by Nomad in TOS "The Changeling"), again a nice nod to those familar with that ep. When Andorians and Tellarites and Tholians continue to be shown, then the focus is not on 24th century aliens and planets, but those known but not fleshed out, from an earlier period as they SHOULD be. And this sort of thing needs to continue. There are a number of things from TOS that could be followed up on that were "known" to be around for some time. Of course the Rigel system - which includes the homeworld of the Orions, is one of them that MUST be covered more.
        
        --------
        
        "I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
        ----
        "If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:24:41 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Risa was never mentioned in TOS. It was first introduced in TNG. Again...prequel to TOS.
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:26:58 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Just because it wasn't mentioned in TOS doesn't mean it wasn't around. This is not a continuity error any more than the appearance of the Bozeman in "Cause and Effect"... We may not have seen it in the (TOS) movies, but I'm sure it was flying around somewhere.
        
        --------
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:43:08 on Jan 05, 2004
        
        Something NOT being mentioned is VERY important. TOS takes place 100 years after ENT. Within 100 years of space travel. Mankind could go to a great deal of worlds. ENT was suppose to be the beginning. It should use very little TNG and more TOS because TOS is closer in the time to ENT. By TNG which is 200 years after ENT. Mankind has explored even more the galaxy. But in ENT it is has not. Risa is something from TNG not ENT. To mention it this early is silly.
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:33:02 on Jan 07, 2004
        
        Except that Risa is not some sort of distant planet out in deep space in the 24th century. It's a resort well within Federation space that Starfleet personnel feel comfortable lounging around in.
        
        There's no reason to think it's far away from Earth and unlike the Ferengi or the Borg, no direct evidence that it couldn't have been visited by Starfleet people before the 24th century. So I'd say it's not a violation of continuity.
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: tristan_jones (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:13:26 on Jan 10, 2004
        
        Quote:
        Except that Risa is not some sort of distant planet out in deep space in the 24th century. It's a resort well within Federation space that Starfleet personnel feel comfortable lounging around in.
        
        There's no reason to think it's far away from Earth and unlike the Ferengi or the Borg, no direct evidence that it couldn't have been visited by Starfleet people before the 24th century. So I'd say it's not a violation of continuity.
        
        O.Deus is right,
        
        I always had a feeling that ARGELIUS II and Risa are the same world, just different names for them like Terra and Earth. Both worlds have cultures that are very similar.
        
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      - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: StarFleet Captain (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:26:08 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        well since u care so much about continuity, go watch Smallville
        
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        RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:08:40 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        That sarcastic comment doesn't negate the truth about Ent not following continuity. Thanks for the support!
        
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      - RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
        By: Grand Admiral Thrawn (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:32:48 on Jan 04, 2004
        
        Well said :)
        
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- RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
  By: degra (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:38:46 on Jan 04, 2004 | (1)
  
  The problem is the writers have given no hint that the Xindi will be nothing more than a season long arc. Ds9 had years to take the time to build up the Dominion, ENT only has 25 epiosdes if you include the finale from last season.
  
  There is so much left to do that with only a handful of episodes left they really need to get going.
  
  I mean they need to explain the spheres, who the five species of Xindi are beyond the little we've gotten so far, why of all species were the Xindi chosen to attack Earth by the XFG, why are the Xindi attacking us, bringing in & revealing XFG and his motives etc.
  
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Who was that woman? | Report this post to moderator
By: Meglo (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:40:29 on Jan 04, 2004

I remember way the heck back in the summer they announced some attractive woman had been cast as a MACO. I forget her name, but I'm pretty sure we've yet to see her in an ep. Maybe she's the one Berman's talking about.

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RE: Who was that woman? | Report this post to moderator
By: tawny (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:16:53 on Jan 04, 2004 | (1)

^Nice screen caps.

So far that's the only episode (Anomaly) she's appeared in. If you blinked you would have missed her.

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RE: Who was that woman? | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:54:38 on Jan 04, 2004

Quote:
I remember way the heck back in the summer they announced some attractive woman had been cast as a MACO. I forget her name, but I'm pretty sure we've yet to see her in an ep. Maybe she's the one Berman's talking about.

You're thinking of Corporal McKenzie, played by actress Julia Rose...

The Corporal McKenzie Appreciation Gallery (screen captures)

--------------
The Spock vs. Q Collection

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- RE: Who was that woman? | Report this post to moderator
  By: Meglo (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:29:12 on Jan 04, 2004 | (1)
  
  Thanks for the link. I must have gotten up to get a snack or something, because I have no recollection of that entire sequence. (Yet I still managed to enjoy the rest of the episode.)
  
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funny... | Report this post to moderator
By: NCC-1701 (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:16:35 on Jan 04, 2004

I was just thinking about Cutler yesterday and how nothing more had been said?! Do we even know what she died from?

"some quite attractive female MACOs."

Berman just DOES NOT have a clue!!!

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Kellie Waymire's Cause of Death | Report this post to moderator
By: Dukat (Odo's file, contact, web site) @ 14:41:48 on Jan 04, 2004

From one of the fansites: (another site also states the cause was MVP)

Regarding the cause of Kellie's death:

"According to the LA coroner's office, Kellie died from a undiagnosed cardiac arrhythmia, probably related to mitral valve prolapse (MVP). She had been diagnosed with MVP, as many women are, when she was a teen. This is normally a benign condition but appears to become much worse within the last few years resulting in an enlargement of Kellie's heart and eventually her sudden death. There was no warning of this as Kellie was very active and displayed no apparent symptoms."

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- RE: Kellie Waymire's Cause of Death | Report this post to moderator
  By: NCC-1701 (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:43:22 on Jan 04, 2004
  
  I quite liked her, better than T'Pol/Hoshi and it would have been nice to have a regulat Below Decks crew member.
  
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Oh boy.... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 09:54:51 on Jan 04, 2004 | (1)

From Steve's quotes:

"'Harbinger' is an episode where we rescue a strange test subject - almost like a canary that gets taken down a mine," he tells the mag, "except this is a character that gets taken into our galaxy by the people who built the spheres to see how things are going. It is an episode where a lot of exposition is going to unfold about the upcoming [ending episodes of the season]. There are also going to be some very interesting romantic turns."

So the Spheres could supposedly/possibly/maybe built by an extra-galactic species? That's an interesting turn of events.

Let the Kelvan (TOS "By Any Other Name") conspiracy stories begin!

--------

"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
----
"If the season finale involves the re-built USS Reliant coming back in time to the 21st Century crewed by Moogie, Dr. Selar, Morn, Transporter Chief Kyle, and the Salt Vampire, then we'll know that Coto has gone too far." - tomba1701

Quote

RE: Oh boy.... | Report this post to moderator
By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:35:27 on Jan 04, 2004

Sounds interesting indeed (though I don't know that TOS episode).

I've also been thinking about, what if they tie in the Xindi arc with the episode "Silent Enemy" from season 1? This could make sense. If they can come up with ideas to connect season 3 with the first 2 seasons, then all the better.

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Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Berman My Man (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:03:18 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: troymeier (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:58:44 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:29:04 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Berman My Man (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:31:15 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:41:34 on Jan 05, 2004 | (2)

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RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:17:58 on Jan 05, 2004 | (2)

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RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:40:04 on Jan 05, 2004 | (1)

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RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:54:50 on Jan 06, 2004 | (1)

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:15:00 on Jan 07, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:19:13 on Jan 07, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:01:57 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:02:46 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:36:24 on Jan 07, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:48:14 on Jan 05, 2004

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RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:28:03 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:56:31 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:47:54 on Jan 05, 2004

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RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:04:26 on Jan 06, 2004

It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:55:06 on Jan 04, 2004 | (1)

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RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:44:22 on Jan 05, 2004 | (4)

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RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:49:07 on Jan 06, 2004 | (1)

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RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:15:42 on Jan 05, 2004

You may be oversimplifying the Romulan Wars | Report this post to moderator By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 02:56:48 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:29:14 on Jan 05, 2004

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You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:56:04 on Jan 05, 2004

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RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:27:01 on Jan 04, 2004

Well obviously... | Report this post to moderator By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:15:42 on Jan 05, 2004

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RE: Well obviously... | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:19:02 on Jan 05, 2004

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RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:24:41 on Jan 05, 2004

Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
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RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:54:50 on Jan 06, 2004 | (1)

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: Hbasm (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:15:00 on Jan 07, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:19:13 on Jan 07, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:01:57 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:02:46 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:36:24 on Jan 07, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:48:14 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:35:30 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:28:03 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:56:31 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:47:54 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: dewleaf (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:03:56 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: Now that's Rick at his finest! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:04:26 on Jan 06, 2004

It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:55:06 on Jan 04, 2004 | (1)

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: theoren (Odo's file, contact) @ 05:55:30 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:18:33 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 14:42:22 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:31:03 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 08:44:22 on Jan 05, 2004 | (4)

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:25:22 on Jan 05, 2004 | (1)

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:59:06 on Jan 05, 2004 | (4)

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 07:49:07 on Jan 06, 2004 | (1)

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:57:07 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:15:42 on Jan 05, 2004

You may be oversimplifying the Romulan Wars | Report this post to moderator
By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 02:56:48 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:29:14 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:21:25 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: The TREKMAN!!!!! (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:13:36 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:06:02 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Brent (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:19:13 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:37:11 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Brent (Odo's file, contact) @ 17:00:06 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:21:08 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Brent (Odo's file, contact) @ 18:40:40 on Jan 04, 2004 | (2)

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:00:35 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Brent (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:27:18 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:32:41 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Steve Krutzler (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:24:52 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: TRexx (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:28:45 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:02:24 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Sphire (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:29:10 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:23:37 on Jan 07, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: deltaflyer (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:12:58 on Jan 06, 2004

You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:56:04 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 10:46:52 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 13:22:14 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 20:31:25 on Jan 05, 2004 | (1)

RE: You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:21:38 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: You will be assimilated... eventually... maybe... | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:06:57 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:20:02 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 11:55:14 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:20:42 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 23:21:37 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:32:20 on Jan 06, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 01:18:03 on Jan 07, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:57:23 on Jan 07, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:27:01 on Jan 04, 2004

Well obviously... | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:15:42 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Well obviously... | Report this post to moderator
By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:12:20 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Well obviously... | Report this post to moderator
By: O. Deus (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:23:11 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: Well obviously... | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 00:19:02 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 19:49:25 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 21:11:06 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 22:05:27 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Brent (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:59:57 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Blok_Narpin (Odo's file, contact) @ 15:47:14 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 16:31:30 on Jan 04, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Cap'n Calhoun (Odo's file, contact) @ 03:00:14 on Jan 05, 2004

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Jadzia-Dax (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:33:57 on Jan 05, 2004 | (1)

RE: It is time to wrap this thing up NOW! | Report this post to moderator
By: Scorned (Odo's file, contact) @ 12:24:41 on Jan 05, 2004