By GustavoLeao / 11:22, 10 November 2012 / General Star Trek

The Star Trek podcast Trek Companion recently finished two years' worth of DS9 discussions and, to celebrate, they had their first interview guest for episode 49 of their show. Kris Krosskove was a camera operator and, oftentimes, director of photography for TNG and most of DS9. Trek Companion sent the full transcript of the interview exclusively to TrekWeb. Enjoy.

Trek Companion: Hello Kris!

Kris Krosskove: Yes.

TC: Excellent, it’s so great to finally connect here.  I’m Brian.

KK: Hi Brian, how are you?

TC: Very good. Adam and Steve, do you want to introduce yourselves?

Hi Kris, my name is Adam Caesar, I currently live in Chicago.

And this is Stephen Embree and I live in Kansas City.

KK: Wow, all over the place.

TC: Yeah, we are. So, kris, I (Brian) don’t know if you remember, I worked on Levar’s movie, Reach For Me, a few years ago, that’s how I met you.

KK: Right.

TC: I (Brian) was one of the assistant editors on that. I remember Levar always called you KK, so do you go by KK or is that just a Levar thing or do you prefer Kris?

KK: I think the Star Trek days is when that started. 

TC: Oh, ok.  So, speaking of Star Trek, it is a great thing for us to get to talk to you since you worked on both NextGen and DS9 and we just wrapped up discussing (DS9 for) two years and now we are going to be moving on to NextGen.  So, you started off as a camera operator for the last season of NextGen and then anytime the DP moved up to DP, excuse me, moved up to director, you became the DP, is that correct?

KK: Correct, right.

TC: And then you went into DS9’s 3^rd season and then you pretty much stayed all thru the end, so trek was like a full time gig for you for years, huh?

KK: Yeah, that never happens in this business at all…two years of nextgen which was just incredible, those were probably my favorite two years to tell you the truth.  That cast was amazing.  Whenever you had rehearsals on the bridge, it was a broadway show. You couldn’t get much work done ‘cause Brent would go off and do his thing and Jonathan Frakes could get in there and of course Levar, everybody, it was just amazing.

TC: Yeah, well, that’s one of the things we wanted to ask about.  We’ve always heard that the tone kind of the set on those NextGen and DS9 sets was really different.

KK: It was.  To be honest with you, I don’t think I ever in 38, 39 years now have been on a set with the actors with that kind of atmosphere.  It was truly amazing. And I’m still in touch with every one of them.  We’re still friends.

TC: So does that mean DS9 felt more like a job?

KK: DS9 I think was just a darker show, so I think that just brought on that aura of a little darker if you… The sets were very grey, we never really went to a planet where you have sunlight coming in.  It was just always starfields and dark and I think it was just more of a serious tone on that set than it was on NextGen.

TC: Even when you think about the bridge on NextGen, which is probably the thing you see most often, its really well lit, I mean you see everything, it’s very lit, right?

KK: Well, we looked at through muslin over the ceiling and it had some plexiglass up there as well, so you were able to get a nice ambient light coming down from the top, but then we went with very large sources which helped round things out and then anytime we shot Michael Dorn and what we called the turtle head, you get a little stronger top light which would then accentuate those bumps that he had on that large forehead, so that gave a little more…

TC: So, how much of those lights, you know when we think of standing sets like the bridge, how much of those lights were always the same or did you have to change them often?

KK: Uh, to light the set itself was pretty much a flip of the switch unless you’re going into red alert or you’re going into power down, then it was a different setting on the dimmer boards than everything else, but to light the set it was pretty much ready to go, then you needed to know where the actors were going to be and then make sure they looked good and had the proper back lights and things down on the effect makeup stuff. If you had Romulans... It was different for every kind of texture that Michael Westmore came up with, but in general the set was pretty much ready to go in normal mode.

TC: When you look at TV today as compared to then, obviously it was very well lit.  Was that more of a (cause) thing or did you guys want to have more contrast or shadows or was that just more of the production, you know, they wanted it really well lit, so what was the decision making going on there? 

KK: Well, when Jonathan West, myself came in there, they’d gone thru a couple directors of photography prior and then had settled on Marvin Rush and marvin was doing a terrific job, but there was a little difference in styling.  We definitely sculpted a little more.  It wasn’t quite as flat and full.  The bridge of course was a very full set but when you got into some of the other sets we tried to give it some more contrast and I look back on those days and every once in a while, I guess star trek’s on every day, so (it’s like...) memories, oh wow, look at that.  I’m very proud of what we did.  I think we did a nice job. I wish it was shot 16 x 9 instead of 4 x 3, I think it would have looked more like a movie, but I think we did some pretty good stuff on that show.  And then deep space nine was a much darker show, much darker.

TC: Were you guys shooting 16 or 35 on NextGen?

KK: That was 35 millimeter film. Panavision cameras.  The good ol’ days.  The last film movie I did was last year with Nicole Kidman.  I mean, you just don’t do them that often anymore. It’s always digital. 

TC: Even features?

KK: Yeah, a lot of the features.  Avengers, what was that last year, Alexa? The last 3 features I’ve done have been Alexa and then I actually had my first Red Epic experience and then the one before that was film, so it’s primarily, it seems to be digital nowadays.

TC: Are you happy with the way digital has come along, the technology and the different things you can do with it or do you…?

KK: I think the workflow is fantastic… That’s certainly leaps and bounds from what it was. But I have to be honest, I think digital photography has brought a whole new realm of photographers in.  I don’t think you have to know as much as you did in the film days and I really feel it’s a little flatter.  They’re coming a long way.  The Alexa is fantastic.  It’s probably the closest I’ve seen to film. But, I think you had a better palate before with film that your latitude on over exposure, latitude on under exposure.  And sometimes the textures, the palate, just seems to be a little more pleasing to my eye.  It’s just, you fight the crispness of the HD and you fight the lack of depth at times.  And so, it’s come a long way, but it’s…I feel we went backwards for a while there.  It’s coming… It’s starting to get where film was, but when digital first started taking over, it…the cameras were huge, they were heavy, they were awkward.  You’re umbilically connected now, so it made it very tough.  And you’re still umbilically connected.  But, it’s come a long way, so it’s…I think in the next couple of years we’re going to feel like we’re doing film again.

TC: You mentioned that you thought that the workflow is a lot easier now with digital.  What was the workflow when you were shooting on 35 for NextGen and DS9?

KK: Well, the expense of having to go to a lab and then have the film developed and do a one light so they’d have dailies. And then you’re going to have to take that and then make a digital copy so that it can go to the (editor) and then you’re looking at the Avid quality which was not good, it was very compressed. And so you had all those extra steps and now that it is just coming out of the digital format, there’s no processing, there’s no having to transfer over, I don’t even think they’re using tapes anymore, so it’s…            

TC: You did more than one (telecine), you did a one light just for dailies and then you’d go back after it was cut and then do another transfer?

KK: Oh sure.

TC: How much were you involved in getting to see, you know, especially the whole camera department, (involved) in getting to see it’s…were you guys involved in color and everything or was it just production?

KK: No, we would get involved with color, but then what happens on a TV series is that you’re going to get bogged down. Especially on those shows with all the make up, you ended up working for 14, 15, 16, 17 hours a day, so to be able to get away, sometimes you’d try to run over at lunch, (or) you’d go in before your call in the morning or go after work.  And that, after a while, will wear you down, especially in those days when you did 24, 25 episodes a year. You’re going from late June (or) early July all the way up until April and that’s a marathon.  So, to try and be able to get to all the color correcting sessions, (that did) not necessarily always happen.

TC: I was looking at the list of the times you moved up to DP and I don’t know if it was just coincidence, but it seemed like a lot of those episodes were the times that you guys, like on DS9, were the times that you guys went out on location.  Like, “Take Me Out to the Holosuite”, for example.  How different was that compared to shooting on the lot in the studio?

KK: Well, I think everybody enjoyed it.  We got outside for a change.  Because you could have light depravation after a while, especially on Deep Space Nine with dark, dark, gray sets and low lights and contrast...  We got outside and we felt free and... You experience (enough) shooting shows over the years, it’s like riding a bike.  You just got out there and start doing your thing.  We looked forward to those days. It’s interesting because I don’t know what your reference is for how many shows I shot, but there were plenty of shows that I shot that I didn’t get credit for as well because either Jonathan was sick or we would do some double-ups.  So, it was interesting to see how many credits you got and then all of a sudden, I think one of them was up for an Emmy and Jon looked at me like “uh, I think that was you”. It was hard to keep track. It’s a team effort and Jon and I always worked as a team. Those were really fun days because there were four sets of eyes on the set, not just two, and it was quite enjoyable.

TC: You talked about DS9 being so much visually darker.  Was that…we were talking about this on our podcast recently.  You know, was that a trend you think of television?  Did you see that going on in everything else?  Was that just what was right for DS9?  Because it clearly, you know, NextGen is brighter, DS9 is grittier, it’s darker, you know.  Do you think that was a star trek thing or was it every thing?

KK: It was actually a choice that was consciously made to make it darker and grittier.  They were not as pristine a ship as the enterprise was.  And, I think that the characters and the places that they traveled…it was a darker, a little seedier environment than the pristine world the enterprise was (in).

TC: I definitely wanted to ask you about…I don’t know if you followed all the NextGen HD transfers.  You know, they’re only on the first two or three seasons right now, but have you seen any of those?

KK: I have not, no.  Let me ask you – did they change it to a 16 x 9 format by doing that?

TC: No and that was one of the big, kind of controversies.  A lot of people really wanted, you know, they released the Blu-ray discs and we know they’re going to have other distribution channels in high def and they’re all just pillar box, you know there’s black bars on the left and right.  But a lot of people talked about that you guys would shoot, you guys would shoot like a 16 x 9 ratio, but you never had the intention (of) using those sides of the screen so they said there’s always... booms and things over there so that you couldn’t, they couldn’t be used.  Is that true? Is that what you actually shot?

KK: We did have the dual ground glass for quite a while.  I don’t when we started…I think it might’ve still been NextGen when that started.  So, you’ve got a 16x9 format, then you’ve got the 4x3 in the middle, but here is the problem with that – in those olden – well, in those older days – well, they were, in the 90s – there was no top line.  So, you have to make a choice, one or the other, and so it was always protect 4x3.  If you had to give up something, give up 16x9. Now, unfortunately, the headroom as I recall, was never the same, so 4X3 I believe poked up a little higher than 16X9.  So you’re not going to want to give everyone a haircut all the time.  So, with 16X9, they probably would have to slip the image to get the headroom correct.  That would be an expense.  And then, of course, if there’s a microphone, a light in the shot in 16x9, which is what we gave up to keep moving forward, that could have been issues as well.

TC: I think they transferred…when they were transferring right now for these high def masters, they’re taking everything in the image because I’ve seen samples of a 16x9 ratio and clearly that center cut 4X3 area that is missing some top and bottom as well.

KK: It was frustrating because we all wanted to go 16X9 when the televisions were coming into that format.  And we had to forgo kind of artsy shots and some really nice compositions to have to sacrifice it for the 4X3.  So, there were many times we battled that. And it was frustrating.  You wish you could’ve have just done it in 16X9.  As a matter of fact, I remember when we went to dailies one day, and they (had accidentally) transferred (it to) 16x9 and we saw on our Sony monitors at the time a letterbox conversion, so it was blacked out top and bottom. And I’m telling you, it just gave it so much more credibility and so much more magnitude, it’s a shame it didn’t go that way.

TC: Did you guys ever try and talk them in to switching?

KK: We did, but I’m sure that the studio and the executive producers on a monetary aspect of things, also dealing with the network, meetings that I’m not involved in... I’m sure that’s what dictated what we were doing. It was, I’m sure, more business sense than artistic sense.

TC: Especially for NextGen, because what I guess towards the end of Deep Space Nine is when you kind of started seeing the bigger TVs and that sort of thing.

KK: That was a transition, right.

TC: We’re really blown away with the way these first couple of seasons of NextGen look in HD.  I don’t know if you guys used the same film stock, like all throughout DS9 and stuff, but I’m wondering if you think DS9 would have the same fidelity?  You know there’s rumors that if NextGen sells well enough... They’ve got all the negative in some rock quarry or cave or whatever it is... That someday they might go and do the same thing.  But of course it’s incredibly expensive what they’re doing for NextGen. Would it look the same, as good, better, worse? What do you think?

KK: Well, not seeing it...  Now, are you referring to the first two seasons of NextGen?

 

TC: Yes, they’ve committed to doing the entire series, but all we’ve seen so far (is) they’ve released the first season and we’ve seen a few images from the second season.

KK: The lighting in those first two seasons and I think, if I remember correctly, their uniforms didn’t really have a crewneck collar.  It was really just a very low collar.  That is going to have a definitely different look than if they continue on with NextGen. I would say season three (or) four, maybe five and certainly seven, if I’m correct on the years on that, there’s going to be a completely different lighting style so you’re going to have a different look without a doubt. So, if they go do Deep Space Nine…I can’t imagine it not looking good.  It’s going to probably look like some features that are out there today that are done well.

TC: You wouldn’t have shot it any differently if you’d known that someday they were going to transfer the negative to HD?

KK: I don’t think so, because, I’ll be honest, on a technical note, it was imperative that the composition and your movement and the transitions on an operating standpoint were good. It was very critical whether the assistant was pulling focus well.  And the lighting was well done.  So, on a technical note, as I said earlier, I’m proud of those days because, if you really analyze it strictly technically, it was really a well done show.  So, yes, it will hold up on Blu-ray as well as anything shot today I think.

TC: I certainly hope they do DS9.  It’s certainly our favorite show.

KK: Well, there were great days on Deep Space Nine.  I’ll share one quick story. Armin Shimerman, who played Quark... We had the big earthquake out here, what was it 1994? I happened to be the DP at that point and I’m trapped in Santa Clarita where I lived and I barely was able to get into the studio.  Well, the story I’ve heard is that Armin was in the makeup chair at 4:30 in the morning as he probably always was because of the extensive makeup and that’s when the earthquake hit.  And he had two-thirds of his Quark makeup put on already.  He got up, rapidly went out to get his car because he wanted to get to his wife and, as he gets to Melrose and Gower, I believe it was, which is basically the corner of Paramount, the traffic lights are out. So he took it upon himself to get out and start directing traffic.  Here’s this Ferengi directing traffic! He’d forgotten he’d had it (his makeup) on; he just wanted to get home. And, the panic not only from the earthquake and the chaos that was going on out here, now you’ve got a Ferengi directing traffic!

  

TC: That’s awesome! Where were the iPhones back then to capture that?

KK: Right! (That wouldn’t been on) every news channel you can imagine!

TC: Well, thank you so so much for taking the time to join us.  Our listeners are gonna love it and like I said, it’s great for us, (Adam) Caesar and I (Brian) especially, you know we worked post so we’re interested in all the tech stuff and I know a lot of our listeners are.  And, thematically, it’s awesome that you worked on both shows and it’s a great transition for us since we’re going to be switching over to NextGen.

KK: Terrific, terrific. 

TC: Thank you, Kris!

KK: Alright guys, thank you.  Hope you got what you needed and keep in touch. 

TC: Thanks again.

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