When tptb did away with Captain Kirk they killed the franchise.
You just can't replace cultural icons with the cast/series of the month.
Even Mr Braga thinks it was a bad idea.
It's not to late to bring Shatner/Kirk back and save the series.
I agree some of these people shouldnt be wishing personal harm to these people...however the internet bitching as he puts it, happened because somebody at sompoint a few years ago decided to change star trek core rules that made it successful for all this time and take it down a path that wasn't its own. And when you have that in place in business you do not change because you come into working for star trek or the original creator is no longer around, his idea and mold for the show is its formula for success, its been proven, why change the rules that brings you that success over and over, regardless of how much you disagree with this original formula, its the reason for the continued success and you can't go against.. I understand that whoever these TV Producers or Writers are there to work but they have a successful set rules to guide them to great Star Trek material and there to add there creativity, but in a business situation formula which has proven time and time again, as long as people keep flocking to that core ingrediant than don't change it. Because there are telling that is why they keep coming back. That core of rules is the reason for the repeated success over and over it does'nt get old. And as a fan that is the attraction those set of rules, incrediants which makes it the success and will keep me coming back and "spending my dollars" so to speak. And isn't that what the Studio is in business for to make money, they won't this way.
Star Trek at this point is more of a TV Show at this point, it proves a basic business fundamental practice of continuing to "roll in the dough" If Paramount is smart they should really be looking at that if they want it to bring back as its cash cow.
This is the point of all the bitching because they can clearly see the change in core set of rules in the end product its a clear as day, thats all this anger and what point has been tried to get across. The quality of the product is just not there and people know it. If the original quality of the product has changed or not at the same than people will simply not come back and "buy it"
Thanks to Peter Griffin for the header.
So...
This is why I don't post on message boards much.
Look, Brannon Braga is a friend and has been nothing but gracious to my wife and I. Rick Berman on the few occasions I've met him has been polite and accomodating. On that basis I've nothing bad to say about the personal character of either of them.
Unlike many, many people here who have *never been within a thousand miles* of them who spend their spare time attacking their personal character as people.
I've seen people, and I quote, "wish they would be eaten by cancer."
Don't even get me started on the overabundance of actual human emotion that I've seen people like this 'Scorned' guy devote to bitching about incarnations of Star Trek and their producers. There's a hurricane tearing up the south and soldiers and civilians are dying in Iraq. One can pick something more pressing to be THAT angry about.
Professional criticism is one thing. Were I tasked with running the previous two Star Trek spinoffs, I would have made a fair amount of different choices than they did, out of preference. They are allowed their tastes too. There's work they did that I loved and work they did that wasn't my thing.
So you have a channel changer, an off button, and your original series, TNG, DS9, movie, or whatever incarnation's DVD's that you like. Its just that simple. They are *TV PRODUCERS*, not people who have caused you personal harm.
Part of this franchise's hiatus is because after 18 years in which 25 seasons of television and four feature films were made, an amazing achievment for ANYONE, it becomes harder to make fresh, compelling material. And I think since the latter 90's, despite a lot of creative people's best efforts, there became something of a formulaic vibe to the product being put out.
Films like Insurrection, which were written, designed, lit, and executed like a blown up television episode didn't help.
Again, I respect Brannon very much and I think he is very talented (he wrote some MARVELOUS TNG and some Voyager I like very much), but he once made a comment that he fears Enterprise may have strayed too far off the paradigm, too non 'traditional'.
I disagree, I feel there was not ENOUGH to distinguish Enterprise from its counterparts.
Were I only a casual sci-fi watcher, I would have turned my television set on to Enterprise to see and hear a television series written, designed, lit, scored, and cut nearly stylistically identical to its sibling shows. I would have no way of knowing it was a 'pre Kirk' low tech prequal. I am not as hard on Enterprise as many are, as I grew up with TNG and got used to the look, feel, and sound of Rick Berman-produced Star Trek. I just felt like a greater tonal change and less conservative approach would've helped. There's something to be said for brand identity, but given that Enterprise needed to prove Star Trek's viability, I think a viewer reaction of, "THIS is Star Trek?!" rather than "Oh, this is Star Trek..." would've had more positive impact.
That having been said, people like many of you are ONE of the contributing factors of why we no longer have new product from this franchise. The Internet began to rise in public recognition around 94, 95. A little bit following the end of TNG.
But the folk devoted so fiercely as to post on the internet about Star Trek were, and still are, a fringe minority compared to the rest of Star Trek fandom.
The mainstream media are lazy. The Internet gave them a way of gauging how the fans felt about current Star Trek whenever a piece had to be written, and the perpetually negative opinions of that fringe minority were the easiest source for mainstream entertainment journalists to look up.
So suddenly, the little fringe voice of fans griping about how much Star Trek "sucks" now becomes echoed in a big media loudspeaker to the public, who get their information in paragraphs and soundbites. The seed is now planted by the minority that Star Trek "sucks" and we have it as a stigma. Thanks, Internet fans!
My point of this entire diatribe is this... what Brannon Braga is trying to do here is address that many people didn't care for modern Star Trek's finale.
What people don't undersatand is they were backed into a corner. There was still that slim chance it could have been renewed for season 5, and it had to be written as a contingency well in advance of news of cancellation to make it to air on schedule. Wouldn't YOU be embarassed if you wrote a complete closure finale when suddenly you got picked up for a 5th season? Its a rough spot.
A similar situation happened to J. Michael Straczynski, oddly enough, between the 4th and 5th seasons of Babylon 5. When the 5th seasonw as on the bubble, another episode written that could "act" like a finale but not bring full closure incase they WERE picked up. And yes, I know the separately-filmed 'Sleeping in Light' is the difference between this story and theirs, but the point is that the episode that aired at the end of B5 season 4 was a "contingency finale".
He does not need to go out and address what people feel are flaws in his work. He did so anyway. He really tried to say, "We liked it, we wanted it to be great, many of you did not like it, we're sorry you feel that way." And nothing but hostility is levied to him about something that's not even real.
I'm not angry about a debate about a TV show. I'm angry because people are attacking the fundamental humanity of someone Allison and I have come to know as a good human being.
And jesus, I was in a damn *documentary* about this crap. With a mullet!!! Lighten up guys!!! :)
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--Gabriel C. Koerner
Getting the Cheese to Sickbay in Style.
I'm sorry, it almost sounds like he's admitting he did something wrong [we, for those who read a little bit of this, I just skimmed it].
After he f***s the future of Trek and [is] move[d] on, he admits he's done all he can w/ Trek.
Geez, the rest of the world figured that one out before Enterprise.
Now he regrets killing Kirk? [i]-mind you. the lower post does this sooooo good[ie].
Avoid dark alleys pal. And well lite ones too for that matter.
And why is anyone listening?
I agree with Braga on one thing. ST should not be rebooted. It is a terrible idea. Star Trek has years upon years of backstory. If it was forgotten, I would probably walk away from the franchise. I hav emy TOS and DS9 dvds. I am happy.
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Get busy living, or get busy dying.
Scott's Journal
CM: What about killing Captain Kirk? How did that happen?
BB: I'm sorry?
CM: Killing Captain Kirk? How did the idea come about?
BB: Captain……who? Kirk? (scratches head)
CM: The captain of the first Star Trek series?
BB: Oh you mean, that bald fellow right? What Captain Picard? No no no we didn’t kill him. For the NEXT next gen film we did concive a creative plot that involved time travel.. and would see the death of Picard, but after Nemisis franchise fatigue had already set in and it never got made.
CM: Sorry we seem to be having a misunderstanding, I am talking about William Shatner, Captain Kirk, the very first captain of the star ship enterprise, not Captain Picard from the Next generation.
BB:……..the first captain of the enterprise……….,oh….ummm, you mean Captain Archer. No we didn’t kill him either….but since you brought it up, if franchise fatigue hadn't of set in, and we had been given another series, a creative decision had already been made to kill him using time travellers from the future………..
CM: I AM TALKING ABOUT Captain James T Kirk, from the original series in the 70s, WILLIAM SHATNER, remember?
BB: Original Star trek series? Errrr (looks around the room)……………..Ummm….next genera……………….. Could you hold on for one just one moment please?
CM: Sure……
(BB pulls mobile phone from pocket and dials…)
BB: Hello, Hi Rick its me Braga………………I’m in the middle of an interview with a guy whose asking me about a Captain Kirk? Something about an original TV series?
RB: Captain Kirk?
BB: Yeah, played by William Shatner, he was like the original Enterprise Captain or something?
RB: Oh, they mean Archer.
BB: Err…… no, apparently not, they are talking about some series from the 70s?
RB: ………………I think I remember…………oh yeah, that was a show that was cancelled after a couple of seasons,……… yeah it was cancelled because it wasn’t very popular , what do they want to know about that for?
BB: They want to know why we killed off the Captain in one of our films or something?
RB: Oh crap…………….Okay, now remember that talk we had about difficult questions? Either blame it on franchise fatigue, blame the fans or tell them it was a creative decision.....
BB: Okay Rick, I’ll do that, and while I am on the phone with you, I need to talk to you later about threshold, I have this great idea that involves time travel……………I don’t want to go into in to much detail over the phone so I'll catch up with you later.
RB: Wow that sounds like a great idea, talk to you later.
(phone hangs up BB turns back)
CM: So ummm Captain Kirk? Killing him, how did that happen?
BB: That was a creative decision on the part of Rick Berman, Ronald D. Moore, me, and William Shatner. We all -- and, of course, Paramount -- but...
CM: And Shatner, really, was involved in it?
CM: And Shatner also?
BB: Oh yeah.
CM: Okay.
BB: Yeah, I mean, Shatner was involved all along the way -- in developing the script, and the character work, and his death, and...
CM: Okay.
BB: Um, yeah, he was... he had, you know, obviously, a strong opinion about it. But, it was really a group decision. And it was, uh, thematically, a passing of the baton from one generation to the other. And, uh...
CM: Right. And, I guess, Shatner would want anything that where he gets to have more drama. I mean, you know, death is certainly drama.
BB: Yeah, well, absolutely. You know, again, in retrospect, um, you wonder if it was exactly the way... was it done right, was it as effective as it could have been? Captain Kirk died on a bridge, should he have died on the bridge of his starship? There was a lot of stuff that I personally -- I can't speak for the other gentlemen involved -- but I personally would love to go back in time, like a Star Trek episode, and redo some stuff.
CM: Well, we all wish we could, about all of our work, constantly. I mean, that's the danger of TV and film, versus live work.
BB: Yeah. It felt like a dramatic thing to do. Um, and we were all very happy with it at the time.
CM: Got it. Okay. I'm just... Hey, listen, I'm just moderating, basically, today...
BB: Yeah, leave me alone, Chase! [chuckle]
CM: Huuuhh, these questions are coming from the fans!
BB: I'm kidding. I welcome controversial questions. It makes it more interesting.
Magic beans are great, I planted them in the garden and the next day I had a beanstalk reaching into the clouds. Upon climbing the beanstalk I found
If he regrets Kirk's death so much, then why all talk about it and no action? He's had over 10 years to make it right, and nothing! All talk, no action makes Brannon a dull boy!
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"Men don't use sex to get what they want. Sex IS what they want" - Frasier
I can't even make myself read this interview.
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"The weak and the cowardly have no place in shuffleboard."
--Phil Hartman ("Worf," SNL)
"Never hate your enemies -- it clouds your judgment."
--Don Corleone
(and again, my reply to Scorned ends up as a new topics)
I think, I understand what you're saying. Maybe Star Trek could have been saved from this messy situation if B&B had stepped back when VOY ended, and allowed Star Trek to catch its breath again. A hiatus back then might have done the franchise good. Maybe the death-march had already begun when ENT premiered. I think Rick Berman said so himself, that he felt it was too soon (at least for them as producers) to produce another series.
Now I think everyone needs to get a fresh perspective. Only time can provide that. I don't think its time to produce a mega-movie trilogy. There is too much unrest among fans, and Berman doesn't know where to take the francise either.
Do you?
What about DS9 and Voyager?
I have definitely had my share of criticism for the Braga, but I have to admit he's right about some things...
If Enterprise had had the full franchise fanbase that had dwindled over the years, a lot of people would probably have thought it was a cool way to end from a franchise perspective. It wasn't a great finale episode, but there really wasn't anything conceptually wrong with it. But since most of the true believers had quit watching long ago, you didn't have that franchise core to appreciate the nod back to where this leg of Trek all began.
Nice to see him recognize that the Kirk aspect of Generations was poorly handled. Of the three involved - Berman, Braga and Moore, I wonder whose decision that was, or if it was a joint decision?
He's absolutely, positively correct that there's too much history and too much of an audience to offer a Star Trek reboot. He's also dead on that Star Trek should be positive - the tone of a show like BSG can be enjoyable, but it just isn't right for Star Trek. Again, there's too much history - Star Trek at it's most successful and when it is closest to GR's intention, is about a positive future for humanity.
I know it must be painful for Mr. Braga to sit through this, knowing that some people trashes everything he has to say, and this entire situation with Star Trek (that he obviously loves so much) is stressing and sad. I feel sorry for him, I really do. Who knows if he wants my pitty. Anyway I feel sorry.
I strongly agree with him, that Star Trek should stay brighter and more positive in its outlook of the future. That is THE reason why I'm a Trekker, and I will leave Star Trek behind, immediately, if that ever changes. I will fight against it, as much as I possibly can. And I will never come to accept a BSG version of Trek.
And yeah, I liked TATV. I'm not afraid to admit it!
Quote:"I realize the [ENTERPRISE] finale was controversial."
It was not controversial, it just sucked. It really had nothing to do ENT and left out many things that should of been addressed.
Quote:"We were attempting to do, because we did consider the previous two episodes to the climatic storylines that dealt into ENTERPRISE specifically. We made the creative decision to do a final episode that was a nod to all the STAR TREKs.
Translation: The last 2 episodes were really good and it was something that we should of done from day one but we didn't because we are two idiots. However we did the episodes with the hopes of "topping" Coto because are egos could not allow him to get away with it.
I would like to start a campaign that for the next 10 years we BAN "giving a nod" to anything. I am sick of hearing this lame excuse.
As for the last 2 episodes, that is what ENT should of been doing in the first place instead of having complete episodes of "Dogs" in sick, a crack whore Vulcan who shows emotion on the drop of a hat and a gay/aids mindmeld.
Quote:"And we wanted to look at ENTERPRISE through the eyes of future STAR TREK.
Having the prequel looking through eyes to the future? I see this moron is truly incompetent.
Quote:"And do something that we thought was very interesting in that regard.
Too bad everyone hated it and saw it for what it was "crap".
Quote:" I would be lying if I said that the episode was a rousing success.
No it wasn't. Despite the lame attempt to try and lure Trek fans who left by using TNG cast members.
Quote:"I don't think that the actors liked it.
Translation: The cast of ENT did like it because it had nothing to do with ENT but we said "fuck'em" and did it anyways.
Quote:"I think it showed in their performances that they weren't happy and that the episode suffered from that.
So the cast did bad acting in order to back at you? HOW childish!
Quote:"It was noble effort but I don't think it was quite as successful as we hoped.
If that is your definition of noble then it is no wonder why Trek is the toilet now. The episode sucked. It was written the year before and they didn't do anything to fix it or make it better. It was a throw away script. Thanks for the "care" Braga you dipshit.
Quote:" But I still stand by the concept. It was a good idea.
It had a concept? Lets see Rikar goes and WASTES time in the holosuit thinking about whether he should tell his Picard that his former Captain was working on a device which was in direct violation to a treaty with the Romulans. A device if discovered would cause a potential "war"? He has to think about it first? HAHAHAHAHAH
Quote:"But I can understand why the fans were upset. They wanted their ENTERPRISE and they might not have wanted to see other STAR TREK characters in there. Some people complained about the use of the holodeck. We thought it was cool. But then again we have always loved the holodeck. Some people think it had been overused."
Fans were upset? Are you telling me that Braga actually listened to a fan? Someone at Paramount listened to a fan? NO WAY...That would be real Sci-Fi to hear that!
Quote:"You know it was not a happy finale. We did not want to be writing this.
The founding of the Federation was not to be happy? What a fucking idiot!
Quote:"And Rick [Berman] and I were coming to a time where STAR TREK was ending a long 18 year run and we felt 'you know what, the whole franchise deserves something.' And perhaps we were misguided in thinking that, but it is what we did."
The franchise deserved to have you two FIRED.
Quote:"Asked if he will be involved in any future STAR TREK, Braga said "If it happened right now, no. I am busy with other stuff and I think I have given all that I can to STAR TREK at the moment but ah, in the future I don't know. I really don't know what I would do. If they even came to me at all. I am not sure that they would."
This is EXCELLENT to hear. This is telling us that he is OUT! SO long and enjoy our new retarded series which will last 1 season.
Quote:"Regarding the death of Captain Kirk, which he co-wrote with Ron Moore for STAR TREK GENERATIONS, he said "In retrospect you wonder if it was exactly the way, was it done right? Was it as effective as it should have been? Captain Kirk died on a bridge. Should he have died on the bridge of his starship? There is a lot of stuff that I personally, I can't speak for the other gentleman involved, I personally would love to go back in time, like a STAR TREK episode and redo some stuff."
Translation: MooreRon and I really really screwed this up. Maybe if the two us were fans of Trek we might of cared.
To this comment I say "F.U" Braga. Too busy with your new little show to help get Shatner back to do the ENT episodes? You hated the character Kirk and he killed him off the most STUPID way possible. Oh yeah as for the BRIDGE... Oh yes the bridge between two mountains of rocks is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then that of a Starship you dick!
Quote:"Asked if a STAR TREK reboot would work, he said "First of all it's difficult to reboot STAR TREK. BATTLESTAR GALACTICA the original series was relatively, relatively speaking to STAR TREK, very short lived. And did not have anywhere near the fanbase that STAR TREK has. You can't just ignore STAR TREK. But you could certainly revamp it. But I don't think you can reboot it. And in the terms of the darker tones there are many, many people that felt that ENTERPRISE, for instance, should have been more like BATTLESTAR GALACTICA and been much, much darker and grittier. And maybe that is the way to go with STAR TREK in the future. I don't know.
He is all over the place. First he says Trek has been around too long and then he say "yeah". Screw any revamp. Screw any reboot and screw BSG the revamp.
Quote:" And I personally feel that one of the things that distinguishes STAR TREK is its positive outlook, so I happen to disagree with that.""
This is the only thing he is right about. So for all you people pissing and moaning about Trek being not all dark and depressing etc I say go watch the revamp instead.
Quote:"When the news hit that ENTERPRISE was canceled, a lot of the fans seemed to direct their anger towards you. How do HE cope with that ? "Well look, who can blame them?" Braga said "You gotta blame, you gotta point your, if you are indeed angry you are going to look at the person running the show. So its not surprising. It isn't a pleasant thing to think of yourself as to blame. There are other factors involved with STAR TREK loosing its audience appeal over the years. But I would be lying if I said... I will take my share of the blame creatively. It's almost impossible for me to sit here and say "yes I did this that and this wrong."
What factors causing the decline is he talking about? It is amazing he FINALLY admits to some of the lame creative blame. But you know saying he will take the blame and actually apologizing for it are two different things. Calling fans who watched his and Berman work continuity pornographers after having to remind them of continuity was uncalled for. Having Berman say that "we don't run things around by a group of fans"...and "fans were not interested in Romulans" etc etc. Comments like this is what REALLY pissed off the fans. Comments based on personal opinion instead of "fan market research" did not help.
Quote:"And I am certainly not going to get on the internet and look at what the fans have to think because that would be a. too painful and b..."
No I think he has because he has his own website. He has people that come up to him with sites and comments etc. He has read many fan responses about him otherwise how would he know fans are pissed at him?
All I can say is that good bye Braga. Thanks for nothing you arrogant tool and I can't wait to see your new series tank. If you have an opening on your show take that a-hole Berman with you.
Quote:
We made the creative decision to do a final episode that was a nod to all the STAR TREKs. And we wanted to look at ENTERPRISE through the eyes of future STAR TREK
WHY??!!??!! I think that TATV made Threshold look like Shakespeare.
Quote:
Some people complained about the use of the holodeck. We thought it was cool. But then again we have always loved the holodeck. Some people think it had been overused."
Gee... you think??? Well, maybe just a little.
Quote:
"You know it was not a happy finale. We did not want to be writing this. And Rick and I were coming to a time where STAR TREK was ending a long 18 year run and we felt 'you know what, the whole franchise deserves something.' And perhaps we were misguided in thinking that, but it is what we did."
It's a shame that you didn't think that the franchise deserved something back when it really mattered. TATV was such a lame effort, to call it noble is really just bull.
Quote:
Asked if he will be inovolved in any future STAR TREK, Braga said "If it happened right now, no. I am busy with other stuff and I think I have given all that I can to STAR TREK at the moment but ah, in the future I don't know. I really don't know what I would do. If they even came to me at all. I am not sure that they would."
Yeah, as a writer, you're all that and a bag of chips. Brannon, you would have been better off leaving at the height of your success with the franchise. Now, you'll be remembered as a minor villain as compared to the shadow cast by Rick Berman and his executive decisions. Sure, you guys were able to maintain your lifestyles, but you garnered contempt from legions of geeks who incidentally paid for your cars, pools, and vacations. You showed your appreciation by writing TATV... it was just lame.
Quote:
Regarding the death of Captain Kirk, which he co-wrote with Ron Moore for STAR TREK GENERATIONS, he said "In retrospect you wonder if it was exactly the way, was it done right? Was it as effective as it should have been? Captain Kirk died on a bridge. Should he have died on the bridge of his starship? There is a lot of stuff that I personally, I can't speak for the other gentleman involved, I personally would love to go back in time, like a STAR TREK episode and redo some stuff.
Yes, but just like the holodeck, you've ruined time travel for Star Trek. It was overused, and now it would be an ineffective plot device because it has been rendered sterile. Thanks for nothing.
Quote:
Asked if a STAR TREK reboot would work, he said "First of all it's difficult to reboot STAR TREK. BATTLESTAR GALACTICA the original series was relatively, relatively speaking to STAR TREK, very short lived. And did not have anywhere near the fanbase that STAR TREK has. You can't just ignore STAR TREK. But you could certainly revamp it. But I don't think you can reboot it. And in the terms of the darker tones there are many, many people that felt that ENTERPRISE, for instance, should have been more like BATTLESTAR GALACTICA and been much, much darker and grittier. And maybe that is the way to go with STAR TREK in the future. I don't know. And I personally feel that one of the things that distinguishes STAR TREK is its positive outlook, so I happen to disagree with that."
Yes, the positive outlook is what distinguishes Star Trek from the rest of the crowd, but you have to realize that there is one burning question... how did humanity rise from the ashes of a horrific world war to become the humans that we saw in most Star Trek productions. ENT should have been darker, that isn't to say that the characters couldn't be striving for positivity... but that kind of thing only comes about after some kind of trial by fire. Also, there's a difference between having a positive outlook and being a functional retard like the way Archer was written earier on.
Quote:
When the news hit that ENTERPRISE was canceled, a lot of the fans seemed to direct their anger towards you. How do HE cope with that ? "Well look, who can blame them?" Braga said "You gotta blame, you gotta point your, if you are indeed angry you are going to look at the person running the show. So its not surprising. It isn't a pleasant thing to think of yourself as to blame. There are other factors involved with STAR TREK loosing its audience appeal over the years. But I would be lying if I said... I will take my share of the blame creatively. It's almost impossible for me to sit here and say "yes I did this that and this wrong." And I am certainly not going to get on the internet and look at what the fans have to think because that would be a. too painful and b..."
WHOA!!! What happened to the grammar in that last paragraph?
Anyway, Brannon, I know you tried within the framework you had to work within. But it really is best to know when it's time to leave a job. I think your career would have taken an even more positive turn if you had left the franchise while people hated you less than they do now. Now you have people slamming the show Threshold and it hasn't even aired yet. People are wishing for an abject failure of the show. Personally, I think you could have done better, but I know from my own experiences with the music industry in Hollywood that contracts and bullshit are the lifeblood of the industries there. I spent too many nights hanging out at the Cat and Fiddle, watching people trying to make it in that town, and the shit was so thick that you'd need a chainsaw to cut it.
Anyway, the nightmare is over for both you and the fans. Let us all move onward and upward, as an odd fellow I once knew used to say.
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She came to town and then she drove away,
sunlight in her hair...
I don't blame him as much as I do Berman. But it's time both of them got out of the way and let some fresh talent take over.
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"I'd write my senator/congressman about this....but I can't find my checkbook."
(1)
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