I have to admit, I've lurked on this board for years without posting, and it seems this has finally done it.
ABOUT TIME!!!! About time B&B (yes they are idiots, the people that hate them are not irrational haters that will never be pleased - B&B are simply not good at what they do), about time they give up and let somebody who genuinely loves Trek come and take the reigns.
About time Enterprise isn't screwing around with rediculous races that nobody has heard about and nobody cares about. Kazon anyone??? I mean, at least the Kazon had the advantage of actually being able to cohesively fit into the Trek timeline. But completely spitting on years of established history? That got them, well, we've seen what it got them!
About time The Powers That Be quit trying to remake Trek in their own (uninteresting) image and actually take the "prequel" idea seriously and attempt to make some sort of bridge with the Trek that we know, rather than one that is completely "alien" (haha couldn't resist) to anything remotely Trek.
It is a shame that Coto has to invoke a Vulcan Civil War in order to reassert the idea of a Vulcan from these strange people we've had to watch into the Vulcans of Spok, Saavik and Tuvok. But it that's what it takes to fix, I'm all for it.
And I really thought that the ideas of trotting out Spiner and Shatner were nothing more than desperate ratings gimmicks, but this seems to actually be somewhat organic to the story of Trek as has been laid out previously (Spiner at least...)
I understand Coto's frustration with the Eugenics Wars. The book that attempted to explain them as actually happening "behind the scenes" of the 90's was a good try, but keeping it in the vague area of "the past" seems to be the best way to go. The less specific the possible, let anybody fill in the ambiguity with whatever explanation they prefer.
Maybe they'll even explain why "Khan Noonian Singh" and "Noonien Soong" sound so freaking similar!!!
I'm trying not to wonder what Enterprise would be like right now if this had happened from Day One, rather than after three years, but I suppose there's no use crying over spilled milk.
My dad got me into TOS when I was a kid, I grew up with TNG, loved DSN once the Dominion War began, and grew more and more disinterested as Voyager creaked and groaned into oblivion. A year into Enterprise and I was ready to completely give up.
But for the first time, I might actually become interested. Now that Trek _might_ actually be about Trek again.
Notice, however, that the excitement came as a result of... what? Ditching Braga to some sort of "executive advisor" role, bringing in a fresh voice that actually cares about the franchise, abandoning notions of "fast-and-looseness" (THE BORG?!?!?!?!?), and telling the story WE WANT TO HEAR! Yes, it seems like the fans may have a voice after all. It looks like they are going to attempt to do what we've been hoping. Whether it works or not of course remains to be seen, but...
IT'S ABOUT TIME they tried!!!!
It's always amazing when people start talking about "what is established" as if past writers actually put any thought into the continuity.
Depending on what episode you look at, TOS was set either 200 years, or about 800 years into the future. "Space Seed" was one of those episodes that set it at 200. In TMP, the setting was finally placed in the 23rd century by Decker who said that Voyager 6 was launched "over 300 years ago." ST2 re-affirms this fact by the opening text, and by McCoy's wine bottle to Kirk ("2283") which means that the date was at least then.
So, according to the oh-so-established Canon of the series, the 1990s was either in the 26th century, the 21st Century, or, um, the 20th century. Then "15 years later" (a number that also doesn't fit with "canon"), the 1990s was 200 years prior to some time after 2283. Hmm.
Then, finally, and even more perplexing, "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" which takes place over 100 years after "Space Seed," establishes that the 1990s took place sometime in the 22nd century, or about 200 years before that episode.
So much for established continuity. If Coto says that the Eugenics Wars happened "in the past," he is doing continuity a favor, which is more than any past writer ever did with this subject.
Future Guy is a 30th century borgified Kirk, whom the Borg pulled out of the Nexxus for their own nefarious plans and hilarious hyjinx!
I think they're taking a big chance by messing with the eugenics wars. However, they may yet pull it off. I know a lot of purists will take issue with it, but I think Coto may have a way to justify it. He's got his work cut out for him with this new season ahead of him.
The problem with the eugenics wars is that the war and Khan figured into an episode of TOS and a movie (TWOK). The only way they might be able to get around this with any measure of approval from the fans is to hit that temporal reset button again. Who's to say that just because elements are tinkered with in the past, that a detached entity (such as the Botany Bay outside of Earth's influence) might not continue to exist even after the events which spawned it's exile are no longer a factor? The future destroys the past and creates a new present. It's sort of like a record player needle skipping on a worn out old vinyl record... sorta... but I digress.
Now that they aren't going to rely so heavily on the already stellar special effects, it looks like we're going to see stories that mirror the best of all the other series. This show finally has a direction. Braga himself used the word "lingered" in describing the Temporal Cold War arc. It was so cold that it was hibernating, and so was the audience for that matter. ENT looked to be a cure for insomnia during it's first season. The only thing that kept me awake was my curiousity as to what they were going to do next to upset the TREK universe. The above interview is the most inspiring TREK gossip I've heard in a long time.
The Vulcan civil war!!! This sounds like an excellent lead in to the Romulan wars and will allow for a better fleshing out of the Vulcans as a people, and parent race of the Romulans. Because I expect the Vulcans in the heat of battle to be much more hotheaded than a Romulan, I expect to see some rather strong carnage, hysteria and general mayhem. These emotional Vulcans of Archer's time in a ground conflict... we're gonna see pointy eared freaks waging war for a few years to come now, I predict the old type of STAR TREK will be reborn to a degree. Not everyone will be pleased, but everyone never is. I think that Coto knows what he's doing, and honestly... it may be the case that these ideas are ones that B+B had some input into, but they're going to let Coto take the fall if they bomb. B+B may not feel like they would want to tackle TOS elements because they know how a significant proportion of the fanbase feel about them. So, whatever the case, we may all be in for some real TREK next season.
If they do these ideas the way I see them in my head when I read the descriptions, it's gonna absolutely ROCK!!! I think that they can get excellent ratings if they do what they've outlined.
What is a prequel to STAR TREK without the elements that filled out those three years of 1960's television programming? ENT was too disconnected from even the series that supposedly takes place after it, little resemblance except for a ship with two nacelles and a saucer, and a Vulcan first officer. Hell, ENT might have been better if it were a submarine refitted for space travel with ONE nacelle and no saucer and manned by a completely human crew.
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Lime and limpid green a second scene a fight between the blue you once knew
Floating down the sound resounds around the icy waters underground
Jupiter and Saturn
Oberon, Miranda, Titania,
Neptune titan stars can frighten
-Astronomy Domine
These are some great ideas. Coto knows what he's doing, and he could very well save this show. These sorts of episodes that he is proposing could very well start to bring back the Trek audience. A Vulcan Civil war is a wonderful idea to get Enterprise Vulcans to the Vulcans of TOS and TNG. Great stuff.
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Resistance is futile.....if less than 1 ohm
I recently read Shatner's Movie Memories (again) and something mentioned in this autobiography is some of the movie writers were given an already ~GOOD~ SCREENPLAY to do a rewrite.
The screenplay was good but needed a rewrite to be better.
However, several times when the screenwriter would return after "tweaking" someone else's screenplay it would no longer resemble the GOOD screenplay it was.
The writer was told to fix what was there, but instead he decided to create a whole new screenplay based on his own ideas.
Of course the producers were outraged and asked someone else to take the original screenplay to do a rewrite.
The outcome ... Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. The final writer took material already available and crafted it into an awesome movie.
My point being, when B&B decided to do a prequel it became obvious they wanted to make it their own. They forgot everything already established in treklore to produce ... Enterprise.
Maybe they wanted to make it "better" according to their ideals ... I don't know. But they seemed to have forgotten what Star Trek is. And they didn't want to have stories based on already established Star Trek history.
Coto seems to "get it". No one cared about the Xindi ... or some Cold War. There are plenty of stories to write about aliens we already know about, though some we've never met.
Maybe now we can meet them. See the Vulcan planet and other planets. Have more Andorians. Heck, give Archer an Orion slave girl for an episode ... I don't care as long as it is written well and based in the realm of Star Trek.
I don't post often, but this seemed like a good place to put in my $0.02,
I am among the "disenchanted season 2, sorta turned season 3" people... I liked the way season 3 ended, I suffered through season 2, staying with it for no other reason than it was Star Trek...
As for season 4, I think it's looking up. I see a lot more touching TOS in this season than before.
I think Coto specifically says he isn't going to mention a date at all because it seems incongrous.
The problem with a date like 1996 is that only a small portion of the Trekkies are going to freak out about the Eugenics war taking place in that time. It would get wierd for the rest of the Trekkies and indeed the non-Trekkie viewership if the timelines began to diverge like that... so, that's not really a safe thing to do...
besides, it ruins one of the "illusions" of Star Trek that has been around since Roddenberry's time; it makes it no longer a tangible future one that you and I might experience...
I think that would be a far bigger crime to the franchise, personally... :)
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-I'll think of a good sig... honest I will!
I'll take a wait and see on this one. I don't agree with a Vulcan civil war though, I think Surak ended that, but this is how they make T'Pol "relevant". To be honest I didn't even think not having the Eugenics wars in the '90s was a major mistake, but it isn't that hard to work it in, or to use Okuda's Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology as a guide. The "Heart of Darkness"/Apocalypse stuff sounds like what they planned for a TNG movie at some point. Just make Kirk Kirk and I'll be happy.
If being non-specific about the dates of the Eugenics Wars is the worst thing Coto is going to do to the Canon, no problem. It should be easy enough to gloss over the "past" and get on with the story. And who's to say that the repurcussions of the war didn't extend into Star Trek's 21st century anyway?
I am grateful that Coto at least recognizes there IS a Canon, and has the balls to address the issue straight up and say what's he going to do, rather than dancing around it.
The Vulcan thing could also be interesting. There are parallels with current rifts in Islam and Christianity involving fundamentalism and "returning to the true teachings" that could prove fruitful if handled correctly. The same applies to Eugenics (Hello Dolly?). As others here have stated, it's all in how it's handled, both in researching ST Canon, and in how parallels to current events.
Like the man says, this is the stuff that will make ENTERPRISE appointment viewing.
Screw the pessimists. Season 4 sounds like it's going to be a lot of fun.
Some people just like to complain I guess. I have no problem with how they are handling the Eugenics Wars. Not being specific about dates is a perfectly valid way to handle the Eugenics wars. He just doesn't want to state on TV that the wars happened in the 90s as that may confuse some viewers. Sure hard core trekies will not have a problem with it but what about those that do not know that the Eugenics Wars happened in the 90s? It's just a risk they don't want to take and really don't need to by leaving the dates up in the air. At this point if they lose one or two neilson boxes they are screwed.
I think Coto is the right man to have here. He clearly wants to try to undo some of the mistakes already made on the show and he wants to give us stories that tie into TOS and all other cannon material. If you are reading his comments as anything other than that, then you are reading them wrong.
I'm lovin' it! Looks like I have a reason to postpone my suicide now. Awesome, awesome ideas. We have a fanboy working on the show now! Only thing that bugs me is ending the TCW thing so soon. I wanted to learn more about future guy, etc. and I don't think they can explain all that drama and intrigue in 2 episodes.
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The higher, the fewer
If some of you would actually read these articles before yoy complain he is going out of his way not to give any information as to when the Wars take place. For the purpose of the episode they are doing they happened in "the past".
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He's NOT a Reman!...(I think)
I knew I shouldn't have read this stuff when I'm having a crappy day. It puts me in an even more bitter mood.
The more I hear about the plans for season 4, the less enthused I'm getting about it. After reading the news that Berman and Braga are on the verge of turning Enterprise into "As the Galaxy Turns" by considering bringing William Shatner back as James T. Kirk (or, as Rick Berman, demonstrating his enormous talent for saying nothing while speaking, called it, "an incarnation of a 'Kirk'"...whatever the bloody hell that means), I became very unexcited about season 4's prospects for improvement. I had high hopes for Manny Coto, until he made this announcement about the Eugenics Wars. Who cares if it's 2004 and it hasn't happened in real life? There was no Edith Keeler in the 1940's that I'm aware of, does that mean "The City On The Edge of Forever" shouldn't have happened, either? What kind of logic is that? Star Trek is FICTION. Leave canon alone and keep the Eugenics Wars in the late 90's, where it belongs.
I will admit to being interested in their Vulcan civil war and Orion ideas. I think the idea of dissent within Vulcan society would go a long way toward appeasing fan angst over how the Vulcans have been portrayed on Enterprise up to now. Also, a spotlight on the Orions is long overdue, and I hope they're given the same kind of treatment we've seen toward the Andorians, rather than the token appearance treatment they've given the Tellarites and Tholians.
Truth be told, I'm FAR more enthused about Smallville's return than Enterprise's. I'm sure others have their problems with that show, but I enjoy it immensely. And, yes, even though their plan to bring in Lois Lane this year may seem like a stunt akin to Shatner's possible appearance on Enterprise, at least they're writing her into the storyline in a way that makes sense and has long-standing effects for the mythology, rather than using her appearance as a one-time bone-toss to keep the disgruntled fans tuning in.
Quote:
"What I really wanted to do this season is make the episodes that I as a STAR TREK fan would have to see," Coto told the site. "You know, as a fan of the original series, if I heard that they were doing the Orion slavers and the Eugenics Wars, I would have to be in front of that TV."
His comments on playing fast and loose with continuity aside, Coto's quote above has me pretty excited about Enterprise (I have not been excited about enterprise since 2001)
As Jadzia points out below, provided they do their homework on the Eugenics Wars and the Vulcan canon before they write theur stories, this could be a great season.
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"Many of you are well enough off that . . . the tax cuts may have helped you. We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."-- Hillary! Rodham Marx Clinton
Interesting news that happpens in the middle of the night (at least in terms of us east coasters)... ;-)
I still don't understand this slippery slope that these guys have decided to go on in an attempt to bolster the era in which they chose to write in - one where they claimed little "supposedly" happened, but only if they were unfamiliar with what DID happen... ;-) But undoubtably there will be Trek fans who will consider this whole thing apocryphal at best and non-canon at worst. ;-)
Just as a note to some people who have posted in this thread:
1.) EUGENICS WARS- As Scorned has noted, this show, as so many love to say, is ficitional. Many of the events in it are ficitional INCLUDING the so-called "Eugenics Wars". So this thing about it not having occurred in "real life" is a non sequitur. Ie., as many are wont to say, "Who cares?". Why change it to some later time because it "didn't happen" for real? Just leave it.
TOS "Space Seed" was a dramatic episode involving a man who per the history that is recited during this ep, whether by Spock or the resident historian, Marla McGivers (who essentially becomes enamored with and falls in love with Khan), essentially takes over an area of the world that includes Asia and the Middle East, NOT North America.
2.) THE 1990s - Supposed "lack of mention" of the events of Khan - where people refer back to VOY "Future's End I & II", but manage to also miss TNG "The Neutral Zone", where we meet cryogenically frozen people from - the 1990s, not unlike the suspended animation sleeper from the 1990s that Khan and his group were found in. Imagine that.
But in response, I will ask you to note that right now, there are WARS going on around the world - in Sierra Leone/Liberia, in parts of South America, in the newly liberated countries bordering the south of Russia, and obviously in the Middle East, where people elsewhere in the world, go on about their business... When Hitler was invading country after country, it DIDN'T impact the then "isolationalist" U.S. and people generally went on about their business, NOT INVOLVED until such time that Japan attacked a territory that the U.S. had soldiers stationed at, thus bringing the U.S. into that war.
So it's silly that there has been this obsession with this current group, to lock on to and keep attempting to tie the fictional Eugenics Wars to a WW III, thus demanding world-wide knowledge of these events rather than these events being regional in nature as the Eugenics Wars OBVIOUSLY were per the episode TOS "Space Seed".
3.) VULCANS - I'm trying to fathom what it is they are trying to do here although it wouldn't be out of the question to indicate periods of discontent within the Vulcan society with respect to questioning the implementation of rituals and behavior related to Surak's writings and questioning all the philosophers who have apparently interpreted these writings to develop what we see of this society.
My problem is that this CAN be interesting but ONLY IF the person doing the developing of this takes the time to research it AND have the analogy MAKE SENSE.
4.) ORIONS - these folks are LONG OVERDUE. And like the hints about the Tellarites, they need to go beyond superficial silliness with Orions and make them a 3-dimensional, fully fleshed out group on this show. And that is because they are a powerful powerful influence on events of this timeframe's future, wielding much influence even through to the 24th century (assuming like I do, the "Orion Syndicate" is indeed related to these folks, employing species from all over to participate in their shady dealings).
As a final footnote for now - as I have noted in a number of threads, the year "2151" was around the time of the formation of the "United Earth" government, and it would behoove the showrunners to take a look at that.
And from above:
"CBS and UPN chief Leslie Moonves admits that ENTERPRISE was saved by a lower license fee. But he says although UPN's success is a top priority, he'd like to see ENTERPRISE continue beyond season four.
"[Moving to Friday] is a much better strategy. I think we'll do a much better number there with that show, and perhaps it can live for a number of years. We hope so."
As I noted to another poster in the News Item that precedes this one, Moonves can huff and puff and threaten to blow the house down, but he is no fool and neither is his boss, Sumner Redstone, who runs Viacom, which OWNS CBS, UPN, and Paramount, among many media things. And they will NOT bite the hand that feeds them, particularly when it is to their benefit as "advertising" for the Trek franchise that goes beyond a TV series or any film, and includes the Viacom-owned Simon and Schuster/Pocketbooks Trek novels, the games, merchandise, DVD sales from Paramount Home Video, the theme parks, etc.
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"I think the show talked to people through the characters. They're stories that speak to the heart. They talk about love, they talk about friendship, they talk about loyalty, they talk about patriotism, exploration, curiosity, reaching out... And I think all those things still touch people. Even when you look at a 30-year old show, it still has something to say." - D.C. Fontana, Sci Fi Channel Special Edition TOS 1998
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Outer Space. The last frontier.
These are the trips of the Star Trek Enterprise.
Its 5-year plan...
Calls for us to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life and new civilizations.
To boldly fly where no man has gone in space.
Patrick Stewart on SNL 2/5/94
But I'm kind of miffed that they are messing with the date of the Eugenics Wars. Space Seed established it was the 1990's. Wrath of Khan established Khan was a 20th century man.
So our history doesn't have a eugenics wars? Newsflash: Star Trek is fiction.
Did anybody actually see Captain James T Kirk walking around San Fransico in 1986? Did a whaler ship report a giant spaceship decloaking in front of them? Did anyone notice the disappearance of two humpback whales?
Nope.
Vulcans were never seen visiting Carbon Creek in the 1950's so I think that the date should be changed to somewhere in the 21st century.
In the Star Trek universe, the eugenics wars occured in the 90's.
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"Men don't use sex to get what they want. Sex IS what they want" - Frasier
Most of this sounds pretty exciting. It's going to be great to have Spiner on the show because he's an interesting actor. The Kirk story will probably have to do with the Nexus, don't you think?
I love the fact that they're addressing the terrible screw-up regarding Vulcan behaviour by turning it into a story. I don't see why the Andorians have to be in those episodes too. Sounds like another "Redemption" / "Unification" type of thing. I'd concentrate on what's important and not build alien threats into everything. Vulcan is interesting enough.
May I remind some people that The Eugenic Wars were already not happening in the 1990's when they didn't feature them in Voyager's time travel two-parter "Future's End", which was set in 1996. However, I'd prefer if they *kept on not mentioning* them, and certainly not if they dealt with them. They're a stupid, unlikely idea, developed for a single episode. If they deal with them, they should mix them them with World War Three, which was established to have happened sometime in the 21st century (see "First Contact").
Kudos for getting rid of the Temporal Cold War.
Jan S.
Quote:"On the issue of the Eugenics Wars timeframe, Coto freely admits that ENTERPRISE has played a little fast and loose with their supposed date. He says the new stories operate on the assumption that they occurred not in the 1990s -- as "Space Seed" established.
Quote:"Clearly, we're in 2004, and there haven't been any Eugenics Wars that I know about! So, simply, the Eugenics Wars 'happened' �" they happened in the past [relative to the current show]. I don't know how else to do it."
What is this BULLSHIT!!! A great episode of TOS screwed around with. Gene L. Coon and Carey Wilbur both came up with a great idea that just got screwed with. The Eugenics wars happened in the late 1990's. IT IS ESTABLISHED TREK! The outline of the episode goes as follows.."As the Enterprise proceeds to Starbase 12 in the Gamma 400 star system, historian McGivers falls in love with the leader (who is discovered to be Khan Noonien Singh). Khan makes a miraculous recovery, and holds Bones at scalpel-point to find out where he is. Khan and his crew are products of the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s. In 1993, a group of supermen simultaneously seized power in more than 40 nations. "
Star Trek does NOT follow the real world directly! Who the hell does Coto think he is just "disregarding" ESTABLISHED TOS TREK? Coto is a moron and I think he is going to try and rip off everything from STII. He is already showing signs of being "Mini-Berman and Braga". I think they are spending way to much time in the "writers room". Memo to Coto: It is called "CONTINUITY" STICK WITH IT!!! Of course I know there will be some of you with the lazy attitude of "as long as it is good" excuse. But some of us were paying attention unlike Coto and B&B who obviously didn't set Coto straight.
In the episode Spock reveals to Kirk that his research has determined that that there were 80-90 supermen unaccounted for at the end of the war. Coto had a pretty good idea to tie in the missing Supermen but then blew it!
Quote:" "What I really wanted to do this season is make the episodes that I as a STAR TREK fan would have to see," Coto told the site."
Obviously he is watching different Trek then the rest of us because the Eugenics wars took place in the late 1990's!!
Quote:""We haven't settled on any one identity yet. It's still a question mark. The Temporal Cold War may resolve without Future Guy's identity being revealed.""
Well that just shows you that this TCW idea was garbage and that they had no real plans of doing anything constructive with it. If you don't see who the FG is then that leaves the audience wondering who the hell was behind it in the first place. They should of NEVER of done this TCW idea. It was poor idea, poorly executed and went no where. Its overall importance is minor seeing how it will suddenly be resolved by the third episode. Chalk up another "bonehead" idea for B&B. Almost right next to "Threshold" from VOY.
Quote:""We so badly want it to happen, but it's so early that I don't really have much to say about it," he says. "There's interest on both ends, but Bill is on a different series [BOSTON LEGAL], and we're just starting our season, and so much has to be done before it actually happens. We all have our fingers crossed."
Message to Braga...GET IT DONE IDIOT!
Quote:"We're very aggressive in 'stunt casting' this year, which I think will also bring in some viewers," she says
Are they going to make Enterprise the "Love Boat for the year 2004"? You can't have "special guests" every week. Are we going to see Isaac making drinks in the mess hall? Captain Stubing telling Captain Archer how to drive?
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